PL Woes

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Originally Posted by Krausus

no, coming to the forums QQing, blaming PLing (lumping any PLer in the same group), displaying the trash talk and complete arrogance of your actions all because of a random player in a pick up group of all things (a fail one at that since esuna caused you to fail) = douche

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coming to the forums to insult someone who didnt insult you in anyway = douche

You need a single level 42 skill from a job you have no intention of playing.
Your options are:

1) Wait hours at a time for a party, because nobody has low to mid level jobs anymore. And half of the community still doesn't use the party search functions.
2) Send yourself to sleep on extremely boring leves for very meager experience points. If you manage to slug through them at a reasonable pace, you can even run out.
3) You get a PL and do something productive in real life.

I'm not so much defending PL as much as I'm just saying that with this system it's not surprising to me at all that everyone gets power-leveled.

The game is also not difficult enough to teach people to play well. A ton of the people I've partied with just mash their skills. They wear level 10 gear on level 40 jobs. Stuff like that. It's not because they got PL'd, it's because the game doesn't require them to be anything other than lazy until level 50, and some people just never take the effort to improve their play.

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Originally Posted by Zezlar

There will always be a selection of poor players, because there always is. The problem is that the pool of poor players in XIV is becoming higher due to this out of hand PL. Every single time I see a /shout for Ifrit/Moogle or god forbid Cutter's Cry. I shutter a little on the inside because I know that group is screwed.

Of course that doesn't mean everyone who PLs doesn't know their class though. I personally was forced to level BLM to run Cutter's Cry about 3 weeks ago, and i've gotten several compliments on how well I do at it. It just really depends on the player, but I do agree that for 2.0 I would like to see PLing disappear to a healing role only.

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But PL doesn't create bad players. Players who lack any motivation to be good at their role will always be bad players, no matter what. Good players are people who do want to be good/better at their role and work toward that goal. It has nothing to do with how the levels are achieved, it has everything to do with how much motivation that player has to not suck at the game.

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Originally Posted by Bigbosshenry

coming to the forums to insult someone who didnt insult you in anyway = douche

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he insulted everyone with his QQing dribble

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Originally Posted by Conradus

But if people don't get PL'd, then the dumb people will not be dumb people with lvl 50 characters with AF.

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No, they will be. Maybe not as quick... but they will be.

Dumb people existed before PL was even possible in XIV. It's naive to think that removing PL will cure dumb. Just another excuse.

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Originally Posted by Tigercub

They wear level 10 gear on level 40 jobs. Stuff like that.

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better than level 45+ gear on lv 10 jobs.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

he insulted everyone with his QQing dribble

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if thats the case then...80% of the forum's users are = douche?

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Originally Posted by Bigbosshenry

better than level 45+ gear on lv 10 jobs.

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Yeah ^^ or that. They still get by just fine on reindeer suits and pressing 1.

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Originally Posted by Bigbosshenry

if thats the case then...80% of the forum's users are = douche?

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probably ><

Oh no! In an online video game there will be bad players, WHAT A HORRIBLE FATE!

:rolleyes:

At least the OP handled his situation with a bad player with some maturity over the players who've quit because they can't be bothered with bad players.

Ideally in my opinion it should be moderately time-consuming to level up (1-50 should take 2-3 weeks). They should change the class quests around a bit to be like a limit break system, perhaps as tutorials on how to play that class. As they are now with guild points abolished, they only serve to give free exp. SE did a great job implementing and making the job quests meaningful but they need to do something with the class quests now.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

Nope.

He was new. In fact this was his first week playing.

Full AF level 50 Mog access first weeker.

PLing is getting out of hand and while this may be an extreme case it goes to show the root of the problem. People can level fast too fast and in the process rob themselves of the experience they need to play the game. These are the noobs I guess, they don't know any better. What is truly frightening are the people who have 1-2 50's and PL everything else because they've "earned" it. Or they "learn the job at 40" when you can reach 50 within a day or so in the correct camps.

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I can tell you exactly what you did wrong, or rather, what you failed to do. As a pt leader it is your *job* to make sure everyone knows what they are doing before you even leave. As an example, I will use my 1st Ifrit run. I was PLed as well, but lets face it a DD isn't exactly complicated, plus i partied from 40-50 enough to know how to make my skills work.

PT leader: Anyone new to Ifrit?

Everyone else: ......

Me: I am

*pt leader explains where to stand, who to follow, what to look out for, etc etc.*

You should at least ask beforehand if anyone needs clarification on the fight, and what needs to be done in it. That is why you're a pt leader. Success is more or less your responsibility, you build the team, you make sure everyone knows their role, and then you set out. You can't heal stupidity, nor predict stupidity, but you *can* at least try to cover your bases before fighting. Now of course if an idiot doesn't speak up, nothing you can do.

Don't assume because someone is lvl 50 that they know what they are doing. Its quite easy to lvl 1-50 on any job and not use the majority of your skills. That WHM could have partied the whole time and never used Esuna, its entirely possible. PLing isn't the problem, the problem is that lvling does not require difficult and strategic group content. Grinding doesn't make you a good player. Your logic is just incorrect.

The issue at hand, to repeat myself, is that grinding does not require skill. It doesn't matter how ppl choose to lvl, they will not develop skill by mindlessly lvling. Skill is only developed through focused practice. Grinding = mindless. PLing = mindless. The method is irrelevant. Next time ask if anyone is new and go over the general strategy before leaving.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

I can tell you exactly what you did wrong, or rather, what you failed to do. As a pt leader it is your *job* to make sure everyone knows what they are doing before you even leave. As an example, I will use my 1st Ifrit run. I was PLed as well, but lets face it a DD isn't exactly complicated, plus i partied from 40-50 enough to know how to make my skills work.

PT leader: Anyone new to Ifrit?

Everyone else: ......

Me: I am

*pt leader explains where to stand, who to follow, what to look out for, etc etc.*

You should at least ask beforehand if anyone needs clarification on the fight, and what needs to be done in it. That is why you're a pt leader. Success is more or less your responsibility, you build the team, you make sure everyone knows their role, and then you set out. You can't heal stupidity, nor predict stupidity, but you *can* at least try to cover your bases before fighting. Now of course if an idiot doesn't speak up, nothing you can do.

Don't assume because someone is lvl 50 that they know what they are doing. Its quite easy to lvl 1-50 on any job and not use the majority of your skills. That WHM could have partied the whole time and never used Esuna, its entirely possible. PLing isn't the problem, the problem is that lvling does not require difficult and strategic group content. Grinding doesn't make you a good player. Your logic is just incorrect.

The issue at hand, to repeat myself, is that grinding does not require skill. It doesn't matter how ppl choose to lvl, they will not develop skill by mindlessly lvling. Skill is only developed through focused practice. Grinding = mindless. PLing = mindless. The method is irrelevant. Next time ask if anyone is new and go over the general strategy before leaving.

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great post

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

I can tell you exactly what you did wrong, or rather, what you failed to do. As a pt leader it is your *job* to make sure everyone knows what they are doing before you even leave. As an example, I will use my 1st Ifrit run. I was PLed as well, but lets face it a DD isn't exactly complicated, plus i partied from 40-50 enough to know how to make my skills work.

PT leader: Anyone new to Ifrit?

Everyone else: ......

Me: I am

*pt leader explains where to stand, who to follow, what to look out for, etc etc.*

You should at least ask beforehand if anyone needs clarification on the fight, and what needs to be done in it. That is why you're a pt leader. Success is more or less your responsibility, you build the team, you make sure everyone knows their role, and then you set out. You can't heal stupidity, nor predict stupidity, but you *can* at least try to cover your bases before fighting. Now of course if an idiot doesn't speak up, nothing you can do.

Don't assume because someone is lvl 50 that they know what they are doing. Its quite easy to lvl 1-50 on any job and not use the majority of your skills. That WHM could have partied the whole time and never used Esuna, its entirely possible. PLing isn't the problem, the problem is that lvling does not require difficult and strategic group content. Grinding doesn't make you a good player. Your logic is just incorrect.

The issue at hand, to repeat myself, is that grinding does not require skill. It doesn't matter how ppl choose to lvl, they will not develop skill by mindlessly lvling. Skill is only developed through focused practice. Grinding = mindless. PLing = mindless. The method is irrelevant. Next time ask if anyone is new and go over the general strategy before leaving.

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The sheer amounts of truth and sense in this post are staggering.

+1

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

I can tell you exactly what you did wrong, or rather, what you failed to do. As a pt leader it is your *job* to make sure everyone knows what they are doing before you even leave. As an example, I will use my 1st Ifrit run. I was PLed as well, but lets face it a DD isn't exactly complicated, plus i partied from 40-50 enough to know how to make my skills work.

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Truth in this, but to this as well...

OP said the guy didn't know what Esuna was or the effect it had on the target. Even if he had explained it, he wouldn't have appreciated the necessity in it. This is the problem with the battle system as it is now. In XI, a WHM knew exactly what Erase did the first time their tank got hit with a debuff.

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Originally Posted by Xoo

Truth in this, but to this as well...

OP said the guy didn't know what Esuna was or the effect it had on the target. Even if he had explained it, he wouldn't have appreciated the necessity in it. This is the problem with the battle system as it is now. In XI, a WHM knew exactly what Erase did the first time their tank got hit with a debuff.

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Don't forget Esuna is a job ability not like he would of had the ability forever, this whole issue and thread could have been avoid had the party leader did his job and actually lead the party.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

Don't forget Esuna is a job ability not like he would of had the ability forever, this whole issue and thread could have been avoid had the party leader did his job and actually lead the party.

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I'm not saying the OP isn't without blame. What I am saying is the person in question is just as much to blame. Who is actually at fault is the developers behind this battle system.

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Originally Posted by Xoo

Truth in this, but to this as well...

OP said the guy didn't know what Esuna was or the effect it had on the target. Even if he had explained it, he wouldn't have appreciated the necessity in it. This is the problem with the battle system as it is now. In XI, a WHM knew exactly what Erase did the first time their tank got hit with a debuff.

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No WHM knew what erase did after reading the description. There isn't a light that pops up in a exp pt only that tells you to use it. you learn it by reading the description. That doesn't require an exp pt.

Some of you just crack me up.

"Hey guys I just got this spell called Cure."
"cool whats it do?"
"Idk the description says "it cure's a target" but I won't know til I get an exp pt to try it out."

Some players are just horrible and you can't do anything about it.
You can never help someone who doesn't want to help themselves.

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Originally Posted by Xoo

I'm not saying the OP isn't without blame. What I am saying is the person in question is just as much to blame. Who is actually at fault is the developers behind this battle system.

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you kidding me? it was a pug group hell even my LS group explains fights before the fights and one thing the leader would always say is if the tank gets petrified WHM make sure to esuna them. No use trying to argue with you though your always quick to jump on the anti-PL bandwagon regardless of the situation.

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

No WHM knew what erase did after reading the description. There isn't a light that pops up in a exp pt only that tells you to use it. you learn it by reading the description. That doesn't require an exp pt.

Some of you just crack me up.

"Hey guys I just got this spell called Cure."
"cool whats it do?"
"Idk the description says "it cure's a target" but I won't know til I get an exp pt to try it out."

Some players are just horrible and you can't do anything about it.
You can never help someone who doesn't want to help themselves.

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...and if you'd never had to use it before that very moment? Would you have even remembered? Especially if you were powerleveled up to Lv40+? Sorry, I'll keep knocking the negative repercussions of a broken battle system, the proliferation and abuse of PL because I do believe they bear a significant impact on the general quality of players.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

But PL doesn't create bad players. Players who lack any motivation to be good at their role will always be bad players, no matter what. Good players are people who do want to be good/better at their role and work toward that goal. It has nothing to do with how the levels are achieved, it has everything to do with how much motivation that player has to not suck at the game.

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While this is true you cannot admit with a straight face that increasing the length of time and difficultly of the leveling process will not greatly diminish the sheer number of bad players. No one, no matter how inept at a game they may be, will learn NOTHING from leveling a job 4 hours a day for a month straight. Not to mention WHY would they? If you get stuck in the low 30's high 20's because you keep getting tossed from parties because you literally cannot function in the role you've chosen guess what? You stop playing it. Only a handful of stubborn time rich die hards would ever cap.

Am I saying everyone who reach 75 in FXI was proficient at their job? Several Nyzule Isle runs prove otherwise in my personal experience. That was something I only encountered a dozen or so times in 4 years of daily play. Challenging and extending leveling tends to make better players, weed out those without the aptitude for the role, and grants those who do cap a sense of relevance. That they survived the process of going from newbie to master and are now ready for end game.

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Originally Posted by Krausus

you kidding me? it was a pug group hell even my LS group explains fights before the fights and one thing the leader would always say is if the tank gets petrified WHM make sure to esuna them. No use trying to argue with you though your always quick to jump on the anti-PL bandwagon regardless of the situation.

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That's right. You wanna fight about it now or later?

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Originally Posted by Xoo

That's right. You wanna fight about it now or later?

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nah I'm good, pretty tired and time to go home.

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Originally Posted by Xoo

...and if you'd never had to use it before that very moment? Would you have even remembered? Especially if you were powerleveled up to Lv40+? Sorry, I'll keep knocking the negative repercussions of a broken battle system, the proliferation and abuse of PL because I do believe they bear a significant impact on the general quality of players.

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They should have read the description of the spell. Any decent mage should know exactly what all the spells they currently have do. It's not like it's an incredibly complex spell. It removes negative status effects, that's it. The player in question clearly never even looked at what the spell did before and is thus a bad player regardless of how they obtained their levels. You can't fix that kind of stupid/lazy. Not to mention something like Esuna would have very limited, if any, use in an XP party so Moogle might be the first time they would use it regardless.

A good player would have read the description and would know what the spell does, there's no two ways about it.

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Originally Posted by Xoo

...and if you'd never had to use it before that very moment? Would you have even remembered? Especially if you were powerleveled up to Lv40+? Sorry, I'll keep knocking the negative repercussions of a broken battle system, the proliferation and abuse of PL because I do believe they bear a significant impact on the general quality of players.

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I was 50 cnj way before jobs came out. The 1st time I played white mage fully unlocked was CC. The minute I Saw Chimera do Scorpion Sting. and saw the poison. I knew to use the Esuna. Why? Because I knew what the spell did. I didn't need to go to an exp pt to learn what the spell did. I remember the spell because I am a good player. If you don't remember you have the spell that makes you a bad player and no amount of time spent an exp pt will make you remember.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

They should have read the description of the spell. Any decent mage should know exactly what all the spells they currently have do. It's not like it's an incredibly complex spell. It removes negative status effects, that's it. The player in question clearly never even looked at what the spell did before and is thus a bad player regardless of how they obtained their levels. You can't fix that kind of stupid/lazy. Not to mention something like Esuna would have very limited, if any, use in an XP party so Moogle might be the first time they would use it regardless.

A good player would have read the description and would know what the spell does, there's no two ways about it.

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You're right, they should have read the effects of the ability. When they got it at Lv40, which they probably negated to do since at that point all they needed to get by was Curaga and Stoneskin.

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

I was 50 cnj way before jobs came out. The 1st time I played white mage fully unlocked was CC. The minute I Saw Chimera do Scorpion Sting. and saw the poison. I knew to use the Esuna. Why? Because I knew what the spell did. I didn't need to go to an exp pt to learn what the spell did. I remember the spell because I am a good player. If you don't remember you have the spell that makes you a bad player and no amount of time spent an exp pt will make you remember.

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Good for you, sincerely. You're a cut above. However, not everyone pays this much attention. If the battle system were slower and required more distinct action under far less forgiving circumstances, the guy would have learned what this spell/ability was long before he even hit 40. If not, approximately 60 seconds later he would have had a tank yelling at him to use it or get lost.

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Originally Posted by Xoo

Good for you, sincerely. You're a cut above. However, not everyone pays this much attention. If the battle system were slower and required more distinct action under far less forgiving circumstances, the guy would have learned what this spell/ability was long before he even hit 40. If not, approximately 60 seconds later he would have had a tank yelling at him to use it or get lost.

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How are you so sure? I knew a Whm on XI that was 75 and didn't know what benediction did. Slowing down the system will not make people learn. you CANNOT teach someone who doesn't want to learn. Chances are now even after being told. Kicked from party. That player still doesn't know how to use Esuna. Simply because he doesn't want to learn.

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

How are you so sure? I knew a Whm on XI that was 75 and didn't know what benediction did. Slowing down the system will not make people learn. you CANNOT teach someone who doesn't want to learn. Chances are now even after being told. Kicked from party. That player still doesn't know how to use Esuna. Simply because he doesn't want to learn.

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Find that very hard to believe, but I suppose it's possible. However, we're not entertaining rarities here. Player incompetence due to being powerleveled is the subject. As well, somehow we got off on attacking the OP for being a bad leader, which he very well may have been, but as I say they are both at fault. Give credit where credit is due.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

I can tell you exactly what you did wrong, or rather, what you failed to do. As a pt leader it is your *job* to make sure everyone knows what they are doing before you even leave. As an example, I will use my 1st Ifrit run. I was PLed as well, but lets face it a DD isn't exactly complicated, plus i partied from 40-50 enough to know how to make my skills work.

PT leader: Anyone new to Ifrit?

Everyone else: ......

Me: I am

*pt leader explains where to stand, who to follow, what to look out for, etc etc.*

You should at least ask beforehand if anyone needs clarification on the fight, and what needs to be done in it. That is why you're a pt leader. Success is more or less your responsibility, you build the team, you make sure everyone knows their role, and then you set out. You can't heal stupidity, nor predict stupidity, but you *can* at least try to cover your bases before fighting. Now of course if an idiot doesn't speak up, nothing you can do.

Don't assume because someone is lvl 50 that they know what they are doing. Its quite easy to lvl 1-50 on any job and not use the majority of your skills. That WHM could have partied the whole time and never used Esuna, its entirely possible. PLing isn't the problem, the problem is that lvling does not require difficult and strategic group content. Grinding doesn't make you a good player. Your logic is just incorrect.

The issue at hand, to repeat myself, is that grinding does not require skill. It doesn't matter how ppl choose to lvl, they will not develop skill by mindlessly lvling. Skill is only developed through focused practice. Grinding = mindless. PLing = mindless. The method is irrelevant. Next time ask if anyone is new and go over the general strategy before leaving.

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Frankly, no. That's where another problem collides. People needs to stop worrying about their E-Peen in general. Because the last time I did that, people were like "Oh, I know what to do, I've done Ifrit before" (A WHM, excuse you), and the idiot stood with the THM all the way in the back.



AllOfMyWhy.jpeg

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Originally Posted by Xoo

Find that very hard to believe, but I suppose it's possible. However, we're not entertaining rarities here. Player incompetence due to being powerleveled is the subject. As well, somehow we got off on attacking the OP for being a bad leader, which he very well may have been, but as I say they are both at fault. Give credit where credit is due.

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Correct both are at fault.

But blindly blaming PL when its not the problem is rather pointless. I know people who PL'd who are very good at that jobs. At the same time I know people who didn't PL who are horrible. When you go with a PUG there is always a chance that you will get at least 1 bad person. Try to teach them. If the refuse to learn. You've done what you can, kick/blist and leave them be. That's all you need to do. You don't need to blame PL, Obama, or anyone else but the player for not learning their role.

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Originally Posted by Xoo

Find that very hard to believe, but I suppose it's possible. However, we're not entertaining rarities here. Player incompetence due to being powerleveled is the subject. As well, somehow we got off on attacking the OP for being a bad leader, which he very well may have been, but as I say they are both at fault. Give credit where credit is due.

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Thanks... I think. I do agree with you though. A 75 Whm who didn't know Benny seems impossible. It took that players 3 solid MONTHS of playing 6 hours a day to reach his cap. I find it difficult to believe he was never called upon except that one moment at 75 to use it and only then realized it was in his abilities list. Even if that was the case that was exceedingly rare. Literally unheard of in my time in FFXI.

It is quite possible for someone who never touched the job until 40 to not have a bloody damn clue what they were doing even if they did cap. Which honestly you can go from 40-50 in 2 days anyways, so learning the job then is just plain utter ignorance. If you expect me to accept that everyone should have 2 days of 'training' after the PL rocket pocket parties and then determine if they are willing to learn how to get good then when even have levels at all?

Hell just let us all have 50's and you can pick a class whenever you log in. Apparently that is what PLers want anyways why not oblige them and toss the whole leveling thing completely. I cannot be bothered to put more then 10 hours of effort into attaining my cap lets play some of that awesome and fun end game! Surely those 6 events will never get boring day after day after day.

Leveling has to be a KEY component of the game experience. Hell I say the MOST important. In FFXI when you finally did cap you could have done end game. Many choose to simply level another job. Why would they do that?! It took them FOREVER to reach the max level. Who would ever doing something hard on purpose AGAIN? Because it was FUN. Was the battle mechanic inherietnly fun in and of itself? That is up for debate. Many will say it was just a long grind. Those people tended not to last long in the game. It was enjoyable because you got to feel yourself becoming more powerful. Take on more and more challenging foes and use new talents and abilities you've learn through dedication. It is the progressive feeling of becoming better and more able that drives you. A feeling that has been lost on todays generation. Hard work isn't something to run away from. Taking head on that which opposes you and overcoming it is what makes capping satisfying. Enriches the game play and your take home after you log off. Did I just spend 5 hours getting lost in Yuhtunga to join a PT which wiped 3 times and only got half a level today?


Yeah I did. I'm sure I can get that other half tomorrow... *happy sleep*

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

Correct both are at fault.

But blindly blaming PL when its not the problem is rather pointless. I know people who PL'd who are very good at that jobs. At the same time I know people who didn't PL who are horrible. When you go with a PUG there is always a chance that you will get at least 1 bad person. Try to teach them. If the refuse to learn. You've done what you can, kick/blist and leave them be. That's all you need to do. You don't need to blame PL, Obama, or anyone else but the player for not learning their role.

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The point I'm getting at is that some players need a hard supplementation to their general lack of skill at the game. This battle system, which requires little more than, again, Curaga and Stoneskin along with the potential for entirely skipping mid-game content through the back-alley of PL teaches them little more than those few tactics which otherwise might not even need explaining at such a critical time as during a major battle.

Even then, if they are so bad at what they do, the community would collectively get to know them as sub-par through their mid-game and would have otherwise known what to expect. Something that is very hard to derive from a player whose necessary skills for survival are so limited as to 2-3 actions, given that they don't opt out of completely to be powerleveled.

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Originally Posted by Zaaku

Thanks... I think. I do agree with you though. A 75 Whm who didn't know Benny seems impossible. It took that players 3 solid MONTHS of playing 6 hours a day to reach his cap. I find it difficult to believe he was never called upon except that one moment at 75 to use it and only then realized it was in his abilities list. Even if that was the case that was exceedingly rare. Literally unheard of in my time in FFXI.

It is quite possible for someone who never touched the job until 40 to not have a bloody damn clue what they were doing even if they did cap. Which honestly you can go from 40-50 in 2 days anyways, so learning the job then is just plain utter ignorance. If you expect me to accept that everyone should have 2 days of 'training' after the PL rocket pocket parties and then determine if they are willing to learn how to get good then when even have levels at all?

Hell just let us all have 50's and you can pick a class whenever you log in. Apparently that is what PLers want anyways why not oblige them and toss the whole leveling thing completely. I cannot be bothered to put more then 10 hours of effort into attaining my cap lets play some of that awesome and fun end game! Surely those 6 events will never get boring day after day after day.

Leveling has to be a KEY component of the game experience. Hell I say the MOST important. In FFXI when you finally did cap you could have done end game. Many choose to simply level another job. Why would they do that?! It took them FOREVER to reach the max level. Who would ever doing something hard on purpose AGAIN? Because it was FUN. Was the battle mechanic inherietnly fun in and of itself? That is up for debate. Many will say it was just a long grind. Those people tended not to last long in the game. It was enjoyable because you got to feel yourself becoming more powerful. Take on more and more challenging foes and use new talents and abilities you've learn through dedication. It is the progressive feeling of becoming better and more able that drives you. A feeling that has been lost on todays generation. Hard work isn't something to run away from. Taking head on that which opposes you and overcoming it is what makes capping satisfying. Enriches the game play and your take home after you log off. Did I just spend 5 hours getting lost in Yuhtunga to join a PT which wiped 3 times and only got half a level today?


Yeah I did. I'm sure I can get that other half tomorrow... *happy sleep*

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You can't just go and pull the "Why not just give us all everything right away!" hyperbole. That's simply not true and we all know it. Leveling was almost all the content in the game until recently. Given there are 7 classes to level combat-wise and after the first 2 it gets really boring. It's not like most games where you go through all that content ONCE to level a class to max. You go through it 7 times if you want all classes to cap. Maybe if the journey to 50 was actually interesting people wouldn't PL as much. The fact is that right now it's dead boring. Grind here, grind there, do a dungeon once, go grind in new spots, grind in more new spots, grind in Strongholds, 50! Grind could also be replaced with leves for similarly boring results.

Also comparing things to FFXI is pointless. FFXI at that point was a full game with no huge glaring issues and they had time to focus on content and the like. There's still not that much to do, especially while leveling because they are still fixing the game. Can you really blame some people for not wanting to do the same grind spots for every level range 7 times? Not to mention additional classes added in the future.

Hard work isn't lost on this generation but monotonous, painful grinds that only serve as timesinks might be. The borderline masochistic era of MMOs is long gone now. Things have been streamlined and improved. Leveling should be a journey sure, but it shouldn't be a bulk of the content.

Should leveling be slowed down a bit? Sure, especially the first 20 levels or so. That has little to do with PL since that's going to happen no matter what. If people can PL, people will PL. There's no way to stop it without restricting how legit players do things as well, hence the old claiming system which was awful.

Some of the best players I have the pleasure of playing with right now were PLed. Even people who are PLed have to play in xp parties from 40-50 at least. Usually even earlier.

Whether one got PLed or grinded in xp parties does not correlate with how skilled they are at whatever job they have. In the end, besides various personal factors, what matters more is direct experience in endgame content playing that job.

Make sense please.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Hard work isn't lost on this generation but monotonous, painful grinds that only serve as timesinks might be. The borderline masochistic era of MMOs is long gone now. Things have been streamlined and improved. Leveling should be a journey sure, but it shouldn't be a bulk of the content.

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All the endgame content is monotonous, painful grinding... people still do it, cuz they get shinies. People only want more power and they damn well want it very quickly. Step 2, sit in town saying the game is boring and you've nothing left to do.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

Some of the best players I have the pleasure of playing with right now were PLed. Even people who are PLed have to play in xp parties from 40-50 at least. Usually even earlier.

Whether one got PLed or grinded in xp parties does not correlate with how skilled they are at whatever job they have. In the end, besides various personal factors, what matters more is direct experience in endgame content playing that job.

Make sense please.

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Read, please:

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Originally Posted by Xoo

The point I'm getting at is that some players need a hard supplementation to their general lack of skill at the game. This battle system, which requires little more than, again, Curaga and Stoneskin along with the potential for entirely skipping mid-game content through the back-alley of PL teaches them little more than those few tactics which otherwise might not even need explaining at such a critical time as during a major battle.

Even then, if they are so bad at what they do, the community would collectively get to know them as sub-par through their mid-game and would have otherwise known what to expect. Something that is very hard to derive from a player whose necessary skills for survival are so limited as to 2-3 actions, given that they don't opt out of completely to be powerleveled.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

All the endgame content is monotonous, painful grinding... people still do it, cuz they get shinies. People only want more power and they damn well want it very quickly. Step 2, sit in town saying the game is boring and you've nothing left to do.

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This as well. Why do you people even play this game if all you concede is boring, boring and even more boring...?!

I'd just like to mention that this is definitely not the case for everyone you meet, and I think the correlation to PL'ing is a little off base. Some people just don't bother to seek out knowledge in any form and those are typically the people who cannot perform their jobs well. People who don't know how to tap the vast resources available to them from just asking the people they're partying with or browsing the lodestone information sections are most likely going to fail. Any time I don't know something, I'll ask those around me and also do some searches through lodestone and various fan-sites.

I knew plenty of people in XI who had a 75 and were complete morons and couldn't function on the job (pre-SMN/Abyssea burning). In fact, most of these people I knew only had one job capped, and couldn't do it well. I think because these FF MMO's are more strategic and difficult than most, some people end up at max level without really knowing how to perform their job well.

Also, just on the flip-side - One of the people I frequently do runs with in XIV was doing Ifrit 3 days after he started playing. He leveled LNC, unlocked DRG, actually researched the fight, and started making groups for it. This is one of the better players I play with. Time invested in the game does not = skill in the game. Skill = skill; someone who has greater knowledge and experience in other similar games is going to do better than someone who's first MMO is this. Even some people are just horrible... I hate to say that but it's true - some of my FFXI LS's had complete idiots that had been playing the game for years and seemed to be drunk whenever they played (though never really were).

That is a good summation of what's wrong with XIV. if "FF MMO's are more strategic and difficult" but you can kill 'endgame' content on your THIRD day.... something got broken somewhere along the line.... cuz that's just stupid fast.