Healer Unhappiness exists on the Jap Healing Forums as well.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

And here I thought it was because healer design is stone boring and Square is flailing around with no idea how to handle them.

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lol you’re right this too

You’ve got this so wrong. Whm is nearly perfect. It needs more dmg spells with its lily system. Please stop trying to make all the healers the same. Whm can have the best personal damage give them a greater depth with lilies with combos.

Give ast great depth w buffs not just damage buffs but mitigation for players a run speed buff for those players who always get stuck in bad a spell speed buff to give to casters or even the other healer.

Give scholar the debuffs all the debuffs in game that the mobs have the scholar could have one or two of those to weave and make the fairies matter again one could shield one could regen one could buff physical dps the other magical dps

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Originally Posted by glamazon

You’ve got this so wrong. Whm is nearly perfect. It needs more dmg spells with its lily system. Please stop trying to make all the healers the same. Whm can have the best personal damage give them a greater depth with lilies with combos.

Give ast great depth w buffs not just damage buffs but mitigation for players a run speed buff for those players who always get stuck in bad a spell speed buff to give to casters or even the other healer.

Give scholar the debuffs all the debuffs in game that the mobs have the scholar could have one or two of those to weave and make the fairies matter again one could shield one could regen one could buff physical dps the other magical dps

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Well I wouldn’t say nearly perfect in anyway, it’s just that the job is in its best “state” since 3 addons even though it still a bad state. Like Lily’s in stormblood were super useless and now it feels better, but it whas the most clunky healer too play before they effectively slapped the smoothness out of sch and made the fairy unresponsive as before they fixed that in a patch. Sch whas backwards development, astro whas undertuned at the start of the addon and whm whas ok. So what happens astro got buffed so hard it’s now most pick, whm got nothing important at all and sch still has Button bloat and the fairy sucks hard with ghosting and it ducks feeling wise too.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

So a lack of utility is what makes WHM boring, is that what you're saying?

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That's one way to go about fixing it, yes. BLM after all has next to no utility, but it has a challenging and rewarding gameplay loop that give it some of the highest personal damage in the game if you play it skillfully enough. WHM doesn't follow this design pattern. Its gameplay loop requires almost no skill until you're at the point where smoothing out your awful clipping is most of what's left to do. Having functionally one attack spell is boring. But as you see here

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You’ve got this so wrong. Whm is nearly perfect

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Some of the community thinks Glare Mage is a good thing. Which is mortifying to me.

If a generous portion of this forum got its way with regards to healer design, SCH and AST would get all their complexities and utility back, and WHM wouldn't get anything. It's "perfect the way it is" after all. And we'd be right back to Stormblood and late Heavensward again: AST and SCH output equivalent or more damage than WHM, are better healers because this game's combat system heavily favors their oGCD healing over GCD healing, and on top of it have a batman toolbelt of utility they can play with when the occasion calls for it.

Just give WHM utility and kit complexity. Why not? If WHM stays the boring vanilla healer, then in order to stand out in its own way it needs to do noticeably more damage than the other two. And since the other two healers will scream bloody murder if that happens...then utility it is. I don't think I will ever understand this forum's bizarre insistence that, even though all three healers have the same dead boring rotation they spam in every fight, it's a hideous injustice to AST and SCH that mustn't stand, but yippee yay it's so FUN and SATISFYING if I'm holding a staff while doing the exact same thing.

Why not? Because one class can’t have everything. Machinist gets the highest personal dps or should because it brings no utility. Dancer is the middle while bard should have the lowest dps of the three because it brings so much utility with songs.
Same with healers
Whm should be highest personal dps with a selection of dmg options not three for button mashing but a combo system that incorporates lilies more. So not it’s not fine as is.

AST needs more variety with cards also time dilation would be nice and making undraw useful. Also something so we don’t spam ma@lefic

SCH needs fairy overhaul make each distinct add more dots to weave that feed into fairy abilities or that activate differ abilities of scholar. Something.

Maybe they are waiting for the next expansion to make these classes complete?

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Originally Posted by glamazon

Maybe they are waiting for the next expansion to make these classes complete?

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And how is that okay?

They pretty much broke the two healing jobs that were doing so well (performance and arguably gameplay wise), instead of bringing the third one to that level.
Perhaps in 6.0 they will revert AST and SCH back to what they used to be at their prime, and they would expect us to just not talk about how underwhelming the healing experience has been in the 5.X cycle ?
You can see why a lot of people are unhappy with the situation.

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Originally Posted by Mansion

Perhaps in 6.0 they will revert AST and SCH back to what they used to be at their prime, and they would expect us to just not talk about how underwhelming the healing experience has been in the 5.X cycle ?

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Which would then just leave WHM feeling extremely lackluster again if it doesn't get any changes. While I would like SCH and AST to play like their superior versions again this doesn't solve the issue at all and tbh the fact that you need to wait an entire expansion for major changes unless a job is LITERALLY unplayable is frankly ridiculous.

The problem with WhM is that it's the class that feels perfect if you're inexperienced or fairly bad at it. No other way to put that really. If you have no idea what weaving or clipping is, or how uptime works or how to maximize damage and heal efficiency it feels great. You see big damage numbers from Assize/Misery and your GCD heals are strong and people don't die when you press them. The majority of players don't know what a clip or weave is and when you take this out of the equation it's very simple to pick up, thus WhM remains the most popular healer.

It's only when you gain experience with it and try to optimize that you realize what a clunky mess you have. No shields, no mobility, no utility, a toolkit you're not meant to use half the time because the AST does oGCD's better, no don't heal with assize that's for damage, no don't heal with lilies you need one to move, yes your GCD heals are strong but don't touch them. Many veterans jump ship eventually and all you have left are the inexperienced majority who continue to spam Medica II and Regen and leave feedback on how perfect it is.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Which would then just leave WHM feeling extremely lackluster again if it doesn't get any changes. While I would like SCH and AST to play like their superior versions again this doesn't solve the issue at all and tbh the fact that you need to wait an entire expansion for major changes unless a job is LITERALLY unplayable is frankly ridiculous.

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Yes sorry I forgot to specify "reverting SCH and AST while bringing WHM at that level"

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

The problem with WhM is that it's the class that feels perfect if you're inexperienced or fairly bad at it. No other way to put that really. If you have no idea what weaving or clipping is, or how uptime works or how to maximize damage and heal efficiency it feels great. You see big damage numbers from Assize/Misery and your GCD heals are strong and people don't die when you press them. The majority of players don't know what a clip or weave is and when you take this out of the equation it's very simple to pick up, thus WhM remains the most popular healer.

It's only when you gain experience with it and try to optimize that you realize what a clunky mess you have. No shields, no mobility, no utility, a toolkit you're not meant to use half the time because the AST does oGCD's better, no don't heal with assize that's for damage, no don't heal with lilies you need one to move, yes your GCD heals are strong but don't touch them. Many veterans jump ship eventually and all you have left are the inexperienced majority who continue to spam Medica II and Regen and leave feedback on how perfect it is.

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Thing is they could work to flesh it up DPS / filler wise while not touching the healing output. They could make it more desirable and fun on endgame while keeping its straightforward essence for more casual players.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

That's one way to go about fixing it, yes. BLM after all has next to no utility, but it has a challenging and rewarding gameplay loop that give it some of the highest personal damage in the game if you play it skillfully enough. WHM doesn't follow this design pattern. Its gameplay loop requires almost no skill until you're at the point where smoothing out your awful clipping is most of what's left to do. Having functionally one attack spell is boring. But as you see here



Some of the community thinks Glare Mage is a good thing. Which is mortifying to me.

If a generous portion of this forum got its way with regards to healer design, SCH and AST would get all their complexities and utility back, and WHM wouldn't get anything. It's "perfect the way it is" after all. And we'd be right back to Stormblood and late Heavensward again: AST and SCH output equivalent or more damage than WHM, are better healers because this game's combat system heavily favors their oGCD healing over GCD healing, and on top of it have a batman toolbelt of utility they can play with when the occasion calls for it.

Just give WHM utility and kit complexity. Why not? If WHM stays the boring vanilla healer, then in order to stand out in its own way it needs to do noticeably more damage than the other two. And since the other two healers will scream bloody murder if that happens...then utility it is. I don't think I will ever understand this forum's bizarre insistence that, even though all three healers have the same dead boring rotation they spam in every fight, it's a hideous injustice to AST and SCH that mustn't stand, but yippee yay it's so FUN and SATISFYING if I'm holding a staff while doing the exact same thing.

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Potency-wise, WHM is superior on both healing and Damage to SCH and AST. In an uncoordinated group at least, which happens to be make up most content in this game.

I do agree WHM needs a more elaborate DPS rotation, but I don't see why giving it more utility skills would be the magical solution.

I personally think WHM should be BLM's counter-part healing wise. Long, very powerful nukes combined with quick burst heals and strong damage+healing oGCDs to weave in. Spice things up with self buff that need to be maintained and a mobility slill to help. If there is a job that deserves weaving damage and healing together that's WHM.

I don't think utility should be the core of WHM's identity, that belongs to AST.

All the healers need some form of utility, or a dps output to make up for it. That's how it works for the other two roles. One of WHM's many weaknesses is the complete absence of any utility, and its personal output not being sufficient is one of the many reasons it was booted out of hardcore raiders back in Sb.

WHM's shouldn't suffer having their identity being "Good at healing and nothing else" since that means little in this game where healing has a skill ceiling lower than a lalafell in all but a handful of duties

It doesn't surprise me the jp folks hate current healers as well, but I'm curious if they are being responded to by their community representatives at all >> it'd be nice to receive some acknowledgement now 6.0 is on the horizon of the ridiculous amount of issues and how they will address them, if at all.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

I don't think utility should be the core of WHM's identity, that belongs to AST.

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Exactly! Core identity is vital.
WHM big heals big dmg it needs more damage spells for a real combo rotation

AST group buffs not just damage but speed in combat, spell speed, mitigation,

SCH debuffing and add charm with one of the fairies allowing it to charm a mob to fight with the group this would keep it from healing but make the second fairy useful again. Also enough debuffs to end spamming

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

I don't think utility should be the core of WHM's identity, that belongs to AST.

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While not being core, they could have some. Healers can all do the healing job in any composition and any situation. All healers now have quick burst reactive healing, strong regens and forms of shielding / mitigation.
They don't know how to make WHM stand out compared to AST because AST can do the same healing output and bring utility.
And while the numbers seem ok on paper in terms of balance, WHM's problem is that for a "strong personal DPS" identity, DPSing is not that interesting. And AST and SCH do prety much the same thing during their filler time. That does not work identity-wise.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

Potency-wise, WHM is superior on both healing and Damage to SCH and AST. In an uncoordinated group at least, which happens to be make up most content in this game.

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...huh? Damage sure, because that's how raid buffs (don't) work when you're the only competent person in a party full of randoms. But healing? AST and SCH have busted strong oGCD healing, which is objectively superior to GCD healing. WHM's a stronger healer if they spam their GCD heals on overhealing like a curebot.

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I personally think WHM should be BLM's counter-part healing wise. Long, very powerful nukes combined with quick burst heals and strong damage+healing oGCDs to weave in. Spice things up with self buff that need to be maintained and a mobility spell to help. If there is a job that deserves weaving damage and healing together that's WHM.

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Sounds like it has potential. Glarebot is nowhere close to those things. Instead, Squeenix seems to want WHM to be "the GCD healer". The problem there is the game's combat system makes oGCD healing just flat out better than GCD heals unless the oGCDs aren't sufficient enough to keep things going. Now, the solution here isn't necessarily that healers should be homogenized along their oGCD potential. But the thing is, as skill level increases, GCD healing IS worse than oGCD healing, and the power budget for the healer kits reflects their floor rather than their ceiling. Historically Scholar has better supported weaving healing and damage together, and it's no surprise. Needing to deal damage is near constant. Needing to heal isn't. The most straightforward way to create a healer that's great at weaving powerful damage and healing together with no offensive utility to manage is to design it like early Scholar: most of your GCD focused on a robust damage kit and a large portion of your healing budget goes to quick, powerful oGCDs.

Plus, the community would have a collective stroke if WHM's damage gap were anywhere near the gap between BLM and RDM. If there's anything I've learned from watching the forums since ARR, it's that AST and SCH mains think they should have literally 100% of the utility (offensive, defensive, or otherwise) AND be better at damage for it, because "it's not fair if we're harder to play and have lower output".

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I don't think utility should be the core of WHM's identity, that belongs to AST.

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Good thing I didn't say "core" then. AST and SCH mains think "giving WHM any utility at all" means "encroaching on AST and SCH identity", meanwhile there is no reverse scenario because WHM doesn't have an identity to encroach on, because "having GCD heals" and "having one damage spell to spam" isn't an identity, it's a skeleton of baseline requirements you build an actual job from.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

...huh? Damage sure, because that's how raid buffs (don't) work when you're the only competent person in a party full of randoms. But healing? AST and SCH have busted strong oGCD healing, which is objectively superior to GCD healing. WHM's a stronger healer if they spam their GCD heals on overhealing like a curebot.

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Agree, and that's something very important actually. While WHM does have the strongest AoE healing in the form of Plenary > Cure III (all this under an Asylum or Temperance, Thin Air and PoM if you want), healing is a finite value. There is no need to heal more than "enough so that the next hit is not lethal". And this completely negate WHM's healing potential. Yes it's strong, but the other two healers can just heal the amount needed by any given fight, and that's it for healing, back to downtime.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

I do agree WHM needs a more elaborate DPS rotation, but I don't see why giving it more utility skills would be the magical solution.

I personally think WHM should be BLM's counter-part healing wise.

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I actually agree and I'd be fine with seeing WhM being the BLM counter-part of healers. An identity of solid healing and dps slots in fine (as long as it's engaging) because rdps and keeping the group alive is what matters in the end. BLM and SAM function off raw dps alone and are two of the top classes in the game. The biggest issue right now however is that WhM does not have the identity of raw dps and healing. It only gets to pick one. A WhM can do good raw dps at the cost of low hps, or high hps at a hefty dps cost. Not both. Even worse, it only gets to pick option #1 when paired with AST or it hurts the co-healer.

AST is the perfect example of "good at healing". Cost free weave healing that lets you do maximum damage is key in a game that focuses around enrage timers. It supports co-healers with dps tax too, by shouldering some of the burden. Having to spam GCD's and hurt the overall raid-dps to reach unnecessarily high hps numbers is not "good at healing".

WhM is just riddled with weaknesses and the class is a huge inexperienced player trap, luring them in with strong GCD's while they don't realize it all comes at a cost that good play can never overcome.

For WhM to keep the no-utility identity, it has to lose a weakness or two. Its dps or healing can't come at a high cost or it loses the point. Even BLM is very mobile played well. A good BLM doesn't have to choose between hurting the fellow co-dps or hurting itself.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Needing to deal damage is near constant. Needing to heal isn't. The most straightforward way to create a healer that's great at weaving powerful damage and healing together with no offensive utility to manage is to design it like early Scholar: most of your GCD focused on a robust damage kit and a large portion of your healing budget goes to quick, powerful oGCDs.

Good thing I didn't say "core" then. AST and SCH mains think "giving WHM any utility at all" means "encroaching on AST and SCH identity", meanwhile there is no reverse scenario because WHM doesn't have an identity to encroach on, because "having GCD heals" and "having one damage spell to spam" isn't an identity, it's a skeleton of baseline requirements you build an actual job from.

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I'd say WHM deserves oGCDs more than SCH. I still don't understand why Lilly spells are not oGCDs. They would be perfect to weave in with Damage spells. (Or vice-versa.

I'd happily trade away oGCD healing on my SCH for a more elaborate debuff system. After all, planning ahead seems to be part of SCH's identity, and GCDs are great for that.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

For WhM to keep the no-utility identity, it has to lose a weakness or two. Its dps or healing can't come at a high cost or it loses the point. Even BLM is very mobile played well. A good BLM doesn't have to choose between hurting the fellow co-dps or hurting itself.

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Or maybe add weaknesses to the other two healers.
We just keep removing weaknesses from healers with each expansion adding, it's not good.
The last, was MP management for AST (because of his unnecessary rework of course).

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

I'd say WHM deserves oGCDs more than SCH. I still don't understand why Lilly spells are not oGCDs. They would be perfect to weave in with Damage spells. (Or vice-versa.

I'd happily trade away oGCD healing on my SCH for a more elaborate debuff system. After all, planning ahead seems to be part of SCH's identity, and GCDs are great for that.

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Because WHM already has too many oGCDs compared to actual weaving opportunities, adding even more isn't gonna magically fix that.

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

Or maybe add weaknesses to the other two healers.
We just keep removing weaknesses from healers with each expansion adding, it's not good.
The last, was MP management for AST (because of his unnecessary rework of course).

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Except that this is one weakness that needs to be adjusted if WHM is supposed to be the "BLM of healers".
It's dps needs to be powerful enough to make up for the times where it has to stop dpsing to actually heal. Currently WHM's dps flatlines if it wants to make full use of it's powerful healing kit, whereas AST contributes rDPS on par, if not superior, to WHM's personal DPS with no cost to it's healing output.

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

Or maybe add weaknesses to the other two healers.
We just keep removing weaknesses from healers with each expansion adding, it's not good.
The last, was MP management for AST (because of his unnecessary rework of course).

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I don't like this philosophy. My post earlier is brushing this. Balancing by taking down the other two jobs is not a good idea (see 5.0 launch AST and current SCH issues with fairy and such).
Adding a gameplay challenge is another thing, making a DPS rotation / MP management a challenge rewarding for a healer for instance. Knowing how to make the best of any given ability etc.
But introducing clunky mechanics or drawbacks for the sake of correcting a job that performs too good because another is lagging behind, this is a terrible idea.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Because WHM already has too many oGCDs compared to actual weaving opportunities, adding even more isn't gonna magically fix that.

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This wouldn't be a problem if they rework WHMs DPS options. If they either give it the shorter cast time like Malefic, or give it some kind of combo which includes instant casts (or something else than combos) we could easily weave lily heals.

Right now it would be a really bad idea to make them oGCD, because we would lose movement/weaving tools. If those movement/weaving tools were on DPS instead of heals though it would be possible. It would be an easy fix to make it at least a little more engaging to play.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Because WHM already has too many oGCDs compared to actual weaving opportunities, adding even more isn't gonna magically fix that.



Except that this is one weakness that needs to be adjusted if WHM is supposed to be the "BLM of healers".
It's dps needs to be powerful enough to make up for the times where it has to stop dpsing to actually heal. Currently WHM's dps flatlines if it wants to make full use of it's powerful healing kit, whereas AST contributes rDPS on par, if not superior, to WHM's personal DPS with no cost to it's healing output.

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So WHM needs ways to continue healing while dealing damage. And requires more weaving opportunities. Seems like these two concepts could solve each other without relying on utility whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

So WHM needs ways to continue healing while dealing damage. And requires more weaving opportunities. Seems like these two concepts could solve each other without relying on utility whatsoever.

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Since you seem so opposed to WHM getting any kind of rDPS utility I'd then ask how you'd prefer their dps be balanced against AST and SCH?

Should a top end WHM contribute as much dps as a SCH/AST in a group playing more or less perfectly? Or should WHM be capping out below what SCH or AST can bring? Because most SCHs I see around here seem to think that WHM not having utility also means that their utility via Chain should see them contributing more than a WHM in a higher end scenario.

I hope this makes it clear why this mentality is inherently impossible to adhere to if your goal is actual healer contribution balance.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

So WHM needs ways to continue healing while dealing damage. And requires more weaving opportunities. Seems like these two concepts could solve each other without relying on utility whatsoever.

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I never claimed that utility was needed. WHM simply needs to bring strong enough personal healing and dps to a team to make up for the utility that other healers have, while it has some strong personal dps right now it is also still extremely clunky to play at the higher end.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Since you seem so opposed to WHM getting any kind of rDPS utility I'd then ask how you'd prefer their dps be balanced against AST and SCH?

Should a top end WHM contribute as much dps as a SCH/AST in a group playing more or less perfectly? Or should WHM be capping out below what SCH or AST can bring? Because most SCHs I see around here seem to think that WHM not having utility also means that their utility via Chain should see them contributing more than a WHM in a higher end scenario.

I hope this makes it clear why this mentality is inherently impossible to adhere to if your goal is actual healer contribution balance.

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Just for pressing chain every 2 minutes? No. If we look at AST however it should absolutely be able to achieve higher rDPS contribution than a WHM in a perfectly optimized team. Now many people may disagree but I am of the opinion that if a job is harder to play, or in this case relies entirely on the party's performance, then it should also be able to perform better at the top end. Sure, in theory AST has the highest potential rDPS out of all the healers but how often does that actually happen? Certainly not in your average savage party and most certainly not in party finder.


Chasing perfect balance between the jobs in any given role is not only a futile endeavor but also an undesirable one. There will always be a meta and there will always be jobs that are not included in said meta, trying to "fix" this will only lead to every job essentially being the same. We've already seen the result of this overbalancing, tanks and healers are more homogenized than ever before and to no one's surprise there is still a meta comp for speedrunning or parse runs.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Just for pressing chain every 2 minutes? No. If we look at AST however it should absolutely be able to achieve higher rDPS contribution than a WHM in a perfectly optimized team. Now many people may disagree but I am of the opinion that if a job is harder to play, or in this case relies entirely on the party's performance, then it should also be able to perform better at the top end. Sure, in theory AST has the highest potential rDPS out of all the healers but how often does that actually happen? Certainly not in your average savage party and most certainly not in party finder.


Chasing perfect balance between the jobs in any given role is not only a futile endeavor but also an undesirable one. There will always be a meta and there will always be jobs that are not included in said meta, trying to "fix" this will only lead to every job essentially being the same. We've already seen the result of this overbalancing, tanks and healers are more homogenized than ever before and to no one's surprise there is still a meta comp for speedrunning or parse runs.

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Ah, this opinion isn't so much "WHM should be the BLM of healers" as it is "WHM should be the baby healer". Less complex, lower contribution, just flat-out brings less to the table and WHM mains should suck it up. BLM does more damage than the utility mages, not less.

Those people are wrong. If ast and SCH are bringing buffs and debuffs that increase damage to the enemy then that same damage potential should be an option for whm in their kit as direct damage. High personal damage in exchange for no buffs or debuffs

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Ah, this opinion isn't so much "WHM should be the BLM of healers" as it is "WHM should be the baby healer". Less complex, lower contribution, just flat-out brings less to the table and WHM mains should suck it up. BLM does more damage than the utility mages, not less.

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This is solved by giving whm damage abilities that will make her personal dps equal to what a ast or SCH brings w their abilities.

Then all three are equal but accomplish it in different ways which is what is important because if they are not different then just have one healer. Just have one tank. Just have one of everything. This is why people are so vocal about class identity because no one wants one of each class.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

I am of the opinion that if a job is harder to play, or in this case relies entirely on the party's performance, then it should also be able to perform better at the top end. Sure, in theory AST has the highest potential rDPS out of all the healers but how often does that actually happen? Certainly not in your average savage party and most certainly not in party finder.

There will always be a meta and there will always be jobs that are not included in said meta, trying to "fix" this will only lead to every job essentially being the same. We've already seen the result of this overbalancing, tanks and healers are more homogenized than ever before and to no one's surprise there is still a meta comp for speedrunning or parse runs.

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The issue here is that when you combine these two statements together you get a perpetual meta that will never and (if we take those statements to be facts) should never change.

Ignoring the fact that I find AST to be the easier healer to play (CPM does not equal complexity, until you're at the point that you're literally Lording to catch a buffed midare but not after the card system is very straightforward and AST is nearly as mobile as a ranged physical dps) the idea that the difficulty of a job should mean it is inherently better just means that either jobs which aren't as difficult now (say, RDM) can never and should never be meta because they would need to dismantle the entire job just to make it "harder" to justify buffing its contribution.

Besides all that, as is very clear by playing around in PF and DF, different people find different jobs to be harder or easier depending on a wealth of things. If I am forced to melee I can actually pull it together and be a passable NIN but for some reason DRG just makes me go totally pants-on-head-stupid. "The community" thinks NIN is harder than DRG but for me the opposite is true. Who's scaling do we base this theoretical damage hierarchy on? If it's just general consensus then I guess I'm lucky because I click better with some jobs that other people find weird but that doesn't really seem very fair.

There is very little in this game that can be universally classed with a specific relative difficulty to it's peers and something as integral as job balance should stay far away from such shaky ground.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Since you seem so opposed to WHM getting any kind of rDPS utility I'd then ask how you'd prefer their dps be balanced against AST and SCH?

Should a top end WHM contribute as much dps as a SCH/AST in a group playing more or less perfectly? Or should WHM be capping out below what SCH or AST can bring? Because most SCHs I see around here seem to think that WHM not having utility also means that their utility via Chain should see them contributing more than a WHM in a higher end scenario.

I hope this makes it clear why this mentality is inherently impossible to adhere to if your goal is actual healer contribution balance.

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I feel we're no longer talking about the same thing. I was trying to stay around class identity, you're talking about class balance.

In any case numbers should be about the same. Ideally all healers should have the same potential output. Some would depend on proper cooldown alignement more than others but then again which job doesn't. Even selfish classes use the boosts others bring.

I am against giving each healer the same re-skinned skills. We've seen enough of that, WHM being the primary victim of it.

I guess I could've worded that better. I never said WHM should be the baby healer, when I talked about AST's rDPS I was talking about the current healer design. Yes, AST healing is easy but getting the maximum benefit out of it's party buffs is not, like your Midare example. And if you manage to achieve that level of basically perfect play, not just from you but also from your party to make the most out of these buffs, then you should be able to contribute more dps than a job that is basically just "spam button for dps and profit".

If SE decides to give WHM a more complex kit for it's dps then you won't hear me complain about it and if that leads to the best WHMs having the potentially highest healer dps contribution then that's also a non-issue...maybe fix the clunky parts while they're at it.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

The issue here is that when you combine these two statements together you get a perpetual meta that will never and (if we take those statements to be facts) should never change.

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Not that it shouldn't change but simply that people have to accept that there will always be a meta unless you literally make every job the same within a given role, which is not a desirable outcome. The simple fact is that as long as jobs bring different benefits to a party then there will be jobs which perform better than others in a specific environment.

Give me Time Dilation back. There was absolutely nothing wrong with that skill. I guess I sorta understand why, they wanted to kill the ast/sch op meta but still. Dumbing down the healers and making them super boring is not good. I truly hope they rework each of them and bring back those iconic skills to each. Healer complaints have been crazy this expansion. They can’t be ignored anymore SE. Get it together.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Not that it shouldn't change but simply that people have to accept that there will always be a meta unless you literally make every job the same within a given role, which is not a desirable outcome. The simple fact is that as long as jobs bring different benefits to a party then there will be jobs which perform better than others in a specific environment.

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Of course there's always going to be a meta, that's just how math and video games work. Where that statement has stuck in my craw in past expansions is "some healer is always going to be left out" is usually trotted out on the healer forums to mean "AST/SCH are the best and should stay that way and WHM can eat it". I'm not arguing with your statement; I've just seen that exact statement be used as part of what I'm coming to think of as the Great Healer Circular Argument, which has spun around these forums since the seventh umbral calamity. Different pieces of it get trotted out as months go by depending on the current state of the role.
- It's unfair to have lower output for more work
- Therefore more complex healers should have higher output
- Therefore AST and SCH should be more powerful than WHM
- Being more complicated is AST and SCH's identity
- Therefore if WHM gets complexity it's stepping on their toes
- Therefore WHM should be the weakest
- But don't fret, now that you're pigeonholed into having zero utility AND being weaker, I'm sure SE will find a way to fix you up so you're happy
- But don't you dare ask for more complexity or higher output, because that's AST and SCH's identity. See you back at the top of the list next patch!

I feel like I've heard the whole list a thousand times. Having your favorite job pigeonholed so narrowly is really frustrating.

There is always going to be a meta, so you make every job have a role in the meta by bringing them up, not knocking them down. Fix problems instead of creating them

Whm/Ast Whm/Sch and Sch/Ast why was Ast left out in early HW? not enough dps or healing power, it got buffed and Ast was taken along, late HW and Sb why was WHM left out? No utility and its personal dps and healing were pretty crap as well. But they never fixed whm, no they nerfed it into the dirt. Its only after Shb destroyed the other two jobs whm were allowed in savage again.

Remember when RDM got utility after much begging? It was suddenly no longer kicked out in the group anymore if the RDM player was good.


So when 6.0 comes around, all healers should have be on a scale of dps-utility just like other jobs. If a healer is to have higher utility, they need less dps and vice versa.
Complexity is a playstyle and numbers thing. When shb launched AST was seriously underpowered- it had to run on all cylinders in dungeons just to keep up whereas Sch and Whm only needed a couple. That's an unacceptable level
But popping one or two extra buttons or having to build up to it? That is acceptable, its how other roles function. ITs why every role has a damn meter now except Ast. We're supposed to build up to capstones or burst phases.

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

There is always going to be a meta, so you make every job have a role in the meta by bringing them up, not knocking them down. Fix problems instead of creating them

Whm/Ast Whm/Sch and Sch/Ast why was Ast left out in early HW? not enough dps or healing power, it got buffed and Ast was taken along, late HW and Sb why was WHM left out? No utility and its personal dps and healing were pretty crap as well. But they never fixed whm, no they nerfed it into the dirt. Its only after Shb destroyed the other two jobs whm were allowed in savage again.

Remember when RDM got utility after much begging? It was suddenly no longer kicked out in the group anymore if the RDM player was good.


So when 6.0 comes around, all healers should have be on a scale of dps-utility just like other jobs. If a healer is to have higher utility, they need less dps and vice versa.
Complexity is a playstyle and numbers thing. When shb launched AST was seriously underpowered- it had to run on all cylinders in dungeons just to keep up whereas Sch and Whm only needed a couple. That's an unacceptable level
But popping one or two extra buttons or having to build up to it? That is acceptable, its how other roles function. ITs why every role has a damn meter now except Ast. We're supposed to build up to capstones or burst phases.

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Yeah but that with astro is a common theme we have all expansion it was in. It’s weak as hell at the start and gets way too many buffs throughout the expansion and then becomes the best healer. And white mage getting either minor buffs or no changes.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

- It's unfair to have lower output for more work
- Therefore more complex healers should have higher output
- Therefore AST and SCH should be more powerful than WHM
- Being more complicated is AST and SCH's identity
- Therefore if WHM gets complexity it's stepping on their toes
- Therefore WHM should be the weakest
- But don't fret, now that you're pigeonholed into having zero utility AND being weaker, I'm sure SE will find a way to fix you up so you're happy
- But don't you dare ask for more complexity or higher output, because that's AST and SCH's identity. See you back at the top of the list next patch!

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The only reason I'm not putting this in my signature is because it's so long, but like very well said!

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

Of course there's always going to be a meta, that's just how math and video games work. Where that statement has stuck in my craw in past expansions is "some healer is always going to be left out" is usually trotted out on the healer forums to mean "AST/SCH are the best and should stay that way and WHM can eat it". I'm not arguing with your statement; I've just seen that exact statement be used as part of what I'm coming to think of as the Great Healer Circular Argument, which has spun around these forums since the seventh umbral calamity. Different pieces of it get trotted out as months go by depending on the current state of the role.
- It's unfair to have lower output for more work
- Therefore more complex healers should have higher output
- Therefore AST and SCH should be more powerful than WHM
- Being more complicated is AST and SCH's identity
- Therefore if WHM gets complexity it's stepping on their toes
- Therefore WHM should be the weakest
- But don't fret, now that you're pigeonholed into having zero utility AND being weaker, I'm sure SE will find a way to fix you up so you're happy
- But don't you dare ask for more complexity or higher output, because that's AST and SCH's identity. See you back at the top of the list next patch!

I feel like I've heard the whole list a thousand times. Having your favorite job pigeonholed so narrowly is really frustrating.

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Utility=/= Complexity

I press Chain Stratagem once every 2 minutes. That's not complexity. I would love a more complicated debuff system for SCH. Something to have SCH build up to. Just like the rest of the jobs.

BLM a class with barely any party utility has a very straightforward rotation that is hard to adapt to encounters. It's simple to grasp yet hard to master. This is a class that is simple and very powerful. That's why I think its a good reference for WHM to aspire to.

I am all for giving WHM more complex rotations, more power and a good reason to stay meta. I don't think it should stay as the baby healer at all. There shouldn't be baby healers at all. I just don't want WHM to have offensive utility in the form of buffs or debuffs. I don't want healers to have the same homogenized skills.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

I just don't want WHM to have offensive utility in the form of buffs or debuffs. I don't want healers to have the same homogenized skills.

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If AST and SCH are allowed to hog the entire concepts of "buffs" and "debuffs" as their exclusive identities, then boy is the design space for any future healing jobs skimpy. Bravery and Faith are traditionally WHM spells.

I'd love to see what a BLM designed WHM would look like. Because Umbral Soul is an ability that clearly had more care and kit knowledge put into it than the entire healer role this expansion.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

If AST and SCH are allowed to hog the entire concepts of "buffs" and "debuffs" as their exclusive identities, then boy is the design space for any future healing jobs skimpy. Bravery and Faith are traditionally WHM spells.

I'd love to see what a BLM designed WHM would look like. Because Umbral Soul is an ability that clearly had more care and kit knowledge put into it than the entire healer role this expansion.

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Well I suppose I can admit it all depends on *how* they go about giving each healer utility. I wouldn't be opposed to having WHM use traditional WHM spells as long as they are mechanically distinct enough to not work like other Healer utility abilities. I don't want to see each healer be given a "now raid does more damage" button for the sake of balance.

I would have loved WHM to retain Protect and Stoneskin as a permanent raid buff and have it be unique to WHM. Less damage taken means less heal to do and more dps by proxy. That would be balanced against the offensive Utility the other two bring. They would have to heal more but also have less dps opportunities.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

Well I suppose I can admit it all depends on *how* they go about giving each healer utility. I wouldn't be opposed to having WHM use traditional WHM spells as long as they are mechanically distinct enough to not work like other Healer utility abilities. I don't want to see each healer be given a "now raid does more damage" button for the sake of balance.

I would have loved WHM to retain Protect and Stoneskin as a permanent raid buff and have it be unique to WHM. Less damage taken means less heal to do and more dps by proxy. That would be balanced against the offensive Utility the other two bring. They would have to heal more but also have less dps opportunities.

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Even in the best case scenario with Protect and Stoneskin being free, oGCD abilities (which they probably wouldn't be) how would WHMs even use them in the awful game of Clip or Clip? that they're forced to play for every oGCD they have?

Trying to balance offensive utility with defensive utility doesn't work in a game that's all about offense. You only need enough HP to live, everything beyond that is superfluous. Even if WHM could heal/mitigate better if it isn't able to bring the numbers of SCH and AST it will still be the bad healer.

It's also ironic that a SCH (which has a "now raid does more damage" button) wouldn't want to see it on other jobs.

Maybe we should remove chain, y'know, for balance sake.

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Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Even in the best case scenario with Protect and Stoneskin being free, oGCD abilities (which they probably wouldn't be) how would WHMs even use them in the awful game of Clip or Clip? that they're forced to play for every oGCD they have?

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I'm going to blow your mind with this one.

It's okay to clip.