I have been playing MMOs since I was 13 years old. 1999 Everquest. So trust me, I have seen first hand the degradation of the genre. I have more fond memories of challenges and triumph from everquest and FFXI than any theme park treadmill mmo. Many 20 year vets I am sure would agree with me. Why do you think that is?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcann
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10-30-2019, 06:48 AMDinahDemiurge
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10-30-2019, 08:03 AMTheRogueXlol, nothing in this game gets harder. The numbers get bigger and there might be a new* mechanic to deal with, but nothing is hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valic
Even the "hardest" content in the game is just memorizing where to stand and how to push buttons in a proper order; It is high school marching band in a video game.
I played Ultima Online, but that game was so wonky that it's not really applicable to the modern MMO genre. But then I also played games like Anarchy Online, Lineage II, original WoW, and other late 90s/early 2000s MMOs and yeah, while the games were rather primitive compared to now, the challenges were greater and the players were better. There used to be such a thing as horizontal progressions, racial differences, and different builds for the same character class. There used to be more than one way to do most things in these games. FFXIV has completely abandoned that for the "Huge-DPS-or-Bust" crowd. Even things like Enrage mechanics come from the 'we don't want to spend too much time here so if we can't get this done in x minutes cheat kill us to force us to start over' attitude of modern gamers. My first real experience with raids was Antharas in Lineage II.. raids in this are a joke.Quote:
Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge
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10-30-2019, 08:11 AMReynhartExactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
Like you said, they already have a system to generate random dungeons. It's not like the predetermined layout have such a great design that random map would make a big difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
Like I said, as much as the hint in Sastasha. And "linear" doesn't automatically means a direct corridor, but simply the same single mandatory path.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
Basically, a MSQ dungeon could be the size and design of 2-3 floors of Deep Dungeon, and it would be more interesting than what we have now. And you'll run the expert dungeons far more than you would PoTD of HoH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemina
Why are people so adamant that there must be an "optimal path" ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcann
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10-30-2019, 08:23 AMReinfeldThere are games where tanks can actually make meaningful decisions in the realm of enemy pulls and keeping aggro, and often in those titles CC has a place as well. But the way FFXIV is designed at it's core is just totally unsuitable for that kind of play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli85
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10-30-2019, 08:29 AMTheRogueXBecause modern mmo players are very impatient, and the dungeons need to be able to be hurried through. People don't play the games to enjoy playing the games anymore; they play for the 'end game.' The rest of the stuff only matters because they have to do it to optimize their end game play. I'm honestly surprised there isn't an MMO called 'End Game The MMO' that starts everybody at max level with 'raid ready' gear and that consists of only 'raids' with no story or plot or any of that superfluous stuff that just gets in the way of grinding raids.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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10-30-2019, 08:37 AMLuna_KI think some dungeons need more tank stops. areas where you need to defeat the enemies before you can continue. too many times I've had a tank pull literally everything, wipe, then get mad a the healer and dps. some even leave after the wipe. why are you trying to speedrun the game? are we really saving time if we wipe cuz you had to pull everything? I've had ppl say they have a raid or something to get to in like 2 min, and I'm like 'why did you even que for a dungeon then?". sry for the rant, but I come across too many ppl who seem to be determined to not want to enjoy the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vulcann
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10-30-2019, 08:47 AMTheRogueXI had a run where the newbie tank did a huge wall-to-wall, without his tank stance on, and died because I had to be careful with casting so I wouldn't steal aggro and have everyone die. After I rezzed him he turned his stance on and the rest of the dungeon had no troubles... yet he blamed ME for his ignorance at the start of the fight... It was in ARF.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luna_K
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10-30-2019, 08:57 AMLuna_KI see, maybe the tank stance should just be turned on automatically, like some of the new gathering changes. perhaps it could be done away with and just factored into tanking, they got rid of protect, maybe tank stances should be next on the chopping block. i'm sry if it doesn't sound like i'm being nice, but I think they are pandering to new players and how to make the game easier for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRogueX
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10-30-2019, 09:02 AMTheRogueXWhen they got rid of tank dps stances I really had no idea why they kept tank stances at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Luna_K
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10-30-2019, 09:45 AMValicTbh, now I'm just not sure we're playing the same game. There was a point where there was an interesting shift from HW into SB that caused a significant amount of difficulty. Mainly because of the large amount of movement now required to dodge randomly placed aoe's with shorter countdowns on when they go off. New mechanics and more punishing numbers are typically what makes difficulty in the majority of games if you're going to try and be a snob about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRogueX
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10-30-2019, 03:19 PMReynhartThey are like that only because you allow them to. As long as the game would keep a fair reward system, people would still play it if they like the gameplay, world, etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRogueX
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10-30-2019, 04:31 PMTheGrimace
I would love more intricate dungeons, but as long as Duty Roulettes exist and people continue wanting to face roll content for the fastest method to reach the end of their random dungeon, it's not gonna go over well.
Not if the dungeon is part of the same roulettes as all the others, anyway. Make intricate dungeons with multiple objectives and make them disconnected from other content while also making them worth running. Do this and you will find several conclusions:
1. Diadem, content with semi related but also free roaming options that promote exploration. While the idea sounds enticing, the first and second iterations of Diadem were so bad that they were removed from the game. I think it was because you had to have a party to get anywhere outside of gathering. Make a zone like Diadem that can be done without alliances or even full 8-man parties and you may have something.
2. Eureka. A step closer in the right direction, but still too grindy and punishing for its own good. The exploration becomes a chore, rather than the joy.
3. Baldesion Arsenal. While this was locked away behind all of Eureka and was still linear, I think this dungeon may be the closest thing we have to what people suggest. Difficult but rewarding boss fights and mechanics, and the dungeon itself takes much strategy to maneuver.
But if Baldesion Arsenal were tweaked to work for smaller parties, the danger would be less potent and the rewards would not be as tantalizing. It's a very difficult balancing act. Maybe it could be remedied by making drops in chests far more rare, or introducing more random elements.
I think it would be interesting to see more varied dungeons in the game, but I also think it would be really hard to implement in a way that the majority finds enjoyable. Dungeons as they currently exist may be linear, but they are also fun exercises and so that's why they persist. We're already down to 3 cumulative linear dungeons every 2 patches since Stormblood, as opposed to the 3 we would get per patch back in ARR. Dungeons are some of my favorite content in the game, so I hate to see them so limited now. I am fine with them trying more new and different approaches to content as long as it doesn't further detract from how thin the dungeons have become. It's a greasy road they have yet to maneuver after looking at their previous attempts, and that's where my concern arises. -
10-31-2019, 04:51 AMRitsukoSonoda
IMO I feel like a large contributing factor of the issue is that when gamers realized that developers could now change things in game through updates or patches, too many of them stopped trying to improve as a gamer and instead switched to crying and complaining to the developer to just make it easier for them. Games in general feel like they're just they're shifting further down the road to being dumbed down to the point of making the slowest person feel good about themselves at the expense of everyone else. And many of the ones that didn't need the game simplified are turning into the gamer equivalent of those people on the spaceship in Wall-e...
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10-31-2019, 06:27 AMbattleshadow66
No thanks. While I'd like harder content that does not "speed run everything. Crowd control is a bad way to go. It will end with more fustration then anything.
Maybe CC on boss fights, but id like trash mobs to not be a nightmare. -
10-31-2019, 10:50 AMmonk-dps
You say you want branching dungeons but the ones we do have everyone just B-lines to the fastest path possible. Branching paths in dungeons sounds nice until the player base finds the fastest, easiest route to take and suddenly the branching paths are moot. The playerbase at large does NOT want this. Look at how we treat the dungeons now. You'll have better chances asking for SE to make everything harder and even that is a pipe dream with how the players at large handles it.
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10-31-2019, 03:18 PMLord_UmbraWell of course all content is just memorising Fixed figtht patterns, rotations doesn't allow for much randomisation outside of having two set strict patterns otherwise peoples output would be quite low due to random mechanics messing up rotations every couple seconds. To get random mechanics we'd have to ditch Rotations & move to more Action based combat like BDO or Single player stuff like Dark Souls style combat play. Stuff were you wouldn't be heavily punished for missing a rotation click dropping your combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRogueX
As for topic Players no matter the generation always went for most optimal build & most optimal path through content, exploring was & has always been frowned upon in MMOs old & new people want in & out as quickly as possible second content was a day old people would more like Kick you from party if tried to explore the non fastest path even in old MMOs. No one or most don't want to spend a full lockout in a dungeon checking alternative paths.
Raids have gotten more streamlined cause the player base has grown up, most can't afford MMOs the time they could in so called Glory days when all you had going was School. -
10-31-2019, 03:55 PMHasrat
Proposal for "branching" paths:
Include special mobs that will dictate what path gets taken based on certain criteria. If mob casts Skill A, Path A is opened. If mob casts Skill B, Path B opens instead. Or make it time dependent. If mob dies within time limit, Path A. Exceed time limit, Path B. Maybe it can check the role of the player dealing killing blow, or presence of other mobs at time of death or during fight, etc.
Important requirement that both/all paths be balanced still, for time/exp. As long as it remains fairly close, there's no real benefit to optimizing one over the other.
But, I think it would still turn out to be forks more than branches. Should still meet back up at bosses. Not sure I'd agree so readily to adding extra dev work designing extra boss fights. They're already on a schedule as it is, trying to push branching paths exceeds expected workload already. Adding in entire boss fights is probably a bit much as a first step. -
10-31-2019, 04:59 PMReynhartIn what world a full run of Sastasha, Toto-Rak or Temple of Qarn would ever come close to take "a full lockout" ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Umbra
If you had a bonus reward (including roulette reward) as low as 20% for killing everyone in those dungeons, you'd still have a better reward/time ratio.
What should be done, however, is to redistribute dungeon Xp so that finishing the dungeon would give the main part of xp gain.
Also, dungeons should have secondary objectives bonuses to encourage skill. (No death, don't let any bee use final sting, interrupt at least x casts, etc...) -
10-31-2019, 05:14 PMZazayI think you might be right with that (unfortunately).Quote:
Originally Posted by RitsukoSonoda
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10-31-2019, 05:47 PMGranyalaThis. WoW has proven time and time again that optional stuff and alternate routes in dungeons only work for groups of friends. With randoms, there is always drama because one wants the extra stuff, the other one just wants to be done etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malzian
As for CC: CC was never part of this game, at least not in the extend it was in the WoW of eld, where a broken sheep could equal a wipe. CC just doesn't last long enough here for it to matter much.
For the record: I'd love savage dungeons but not via the DF tool. Again. WoW tried in Cataclysm. Fun in Guild groups, horrible in random groups. Ended up with people insta quitting stuff like Grim Batol, because 90% of the randoms were to incompetent to kill the last boss. Same would apply here. -
10-31-2019, 06:29 PMReynhartWhat players want are the rewards. Give more rewards for fully clearing the dungeons. Problem solved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Granyala
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10-31-2019, 06:42 PMShurrikhanGetting the same reward faster is more rewarding. Thus, if one wants more rewards, they go faster. The problem is one of relativity. Making the slowest-path run competitive with other content forms doesn't make the optimal run any less desirable. It just makes other reward sources less compelling by comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
That's not to say that branching paths can't be negligibly different in their completion times (i.e. just turn into a choice based on your tank's remaining sprint recharge time or the like, to ensure double-duration sprint or as not to waste its uptime if it's already coming off CD), but your solution is dubious at best. -
10-31-2019, 07:15 PMLersayilDefine extra reward. Tomestones are sort of moot, since you cap them pretty fast anyways. Loot? Nobody really cares unless skin farming. Gil? Hah.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Adventure, and exploration doesn't mesh well with daily chores. CC just slows us down in the current meta.
As for the topic overall: you're basically describing deep dungeons. -
10-31-2019, 07:29 PMReynhartExcept that we're talking about "less reward" faster. Going through Sastasha by ignoring all optionnal rooms is faster, but it would give you less reward. Of course, once you decide to do the full run, killing mobs faster...will be faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
No,they're not. People are adamant about how they don't want to spend too much time doing the dungeons. So, if having additionnal rewards can help you skip a run entirely, it's far from moot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lersayil
Instead of doing 5 20 minutes run to gain 5x90 tomestones you could do 3 30 minutes run to gain 3x 150 tomes, while also gaining more goetia tomestones, gils, seals, and chests at the end.
Only if its effect is marginal, and that's mostly because dungeons are far too easy. Even right now Arm's Length slowing all ennemies make pulling lots of them far less stressful, as is holy spamming to stun them. These are already CC. Likewise, if you could paralyze all mobs so that they won't hit you as much, runs would go smoother.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lersayil
Yes, someone already point that, and I really think we could have more dungeons inspired by that design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lersayil
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10-31-2019, 07:52 PMCurisu
I've not read everything but did anyone mentioned the eureka hydatos BA?
It's a huge dungeon were 1 monster pulled by a DPS can cause chaos and death.
I guess the next BA like dungeon was already confirmed. -
10-31-2019, 08:39 PMLersayilYour example saves roughly 10 minutes and 2 queue times. We are also presuming no other source of tomestones. It could work, but might lead to conflicts between those that just want to get the dungeon over with, with those that want to run it less (aka low queue vs high queue jobs).Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Depends on what you mean by CC then. Most people here (including me) seem to presume you mean the classical hard CC (i.e sheep from wow, or Repose here). The kind that takes mobs out of the fight thus upping clear time. The ones you listed above provide damage reduction, but do not lengthen kill time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Which could be fine, but if you make them mandatory it would bring a new can of different kind of meta worms of "have" and "have not" jobs. And lets be honest, I would not trust the average roulette runner to use such tools properly in a mandatory setting. -
10-31-2019, 09:24 PMReynhartIt also saves daily allowances. If, like some people claim, modern MMO players want to go fast because they can't spend that much time playing an MMO, having less evenings to commit to FFXIV will also help them. After all, if you're ready to spend 20 minutes on the game, adding 10 minutes is not that taxing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lersayil
Even with low queue jobs, you'll still have to spend less time to cap your tomestones, or to get a full set of uncapped tomestones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lersayil
They are both CC by the broad definition. But I wouldn't define CC as simply "upping" clear time, they are here to make the run easier. Interrupting monsters in the Twinning help you take less damage, sleeping mobs just before a boss gate helps you not kill everything, stunning or sleeping a bee before final string could save your tank, etc...I think it was in A2 where a mob used to greatly buff the defense of others...split him from the group, sleep it, AoE the rest and come back for him when he's alone. We could also imagine dungeons with pits, where you could knockback monsters to kill them instantly, or sleep them on a trap while you attack another group...frankly, with a little creativity, dungeons could be much more enjoyable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lersayil
They would be better but nowhere near mandatory, and let's be honest, no one will take a duty finder penalty of 30min just because not having CC makes you lose 5, especially since you'd have to queue for the content again. Moreover, CC would still be spread among every jobs, so you wouldn't end with a single "debuffer" job, while every other would have to do it the hard way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lersayil
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10-31-2019, 09:50 PMRufalusFor scripted stuff, yeah. But randomised content could have a sense of adventure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubageddon
I was thinking about setting sail (from Limsa or Kugane) to uncharted mini island chains.
Would be nice to have to navigate to find land and then battle some random enemies for random loot. -
10-31-2019, 10:02 PMLersayilI still stand by my statement that tomestone capping is a moot point to argue about in this case. It requires minimal time investment capping as is, basing changes like this on them is... for a lack of better word in my limited english dictionary: eh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
In my opinion daily chores like this should be kept as linear as possible. Introducing choice into a random group interraction is just conflict waiting to happen, or a meta waiting to solidify, throwing the choice out the window.
We seem to agree that deep dungeons already sorta cover this niche. No need to bring it in to regular dungeons.
The CC examples you brought up this time range from stuff we already have and use (interruptions) through cheese (boss gating adds) to outright gimmicky (knockback into pits). You also specifically brought up sleeping mobs and leaving them alive to kill separately from a group.
The last 3 of these examples I would classify (personal opinion) as tedium and unfun incarnate, and really wish they never become a thing in any regularly run content. -
10-31-2019, 10:26 PMReynhartLots of posts on this topic predicted the apocalypse because it could require people to spend 5 more minutes into a single dungeon...so, no, it seems that even in the time Investment is limited, reducing it is apparently what everyone wants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lersayil
We do...except that I don't think it should stay a niche. Dungeons have already very few meaningful design or bosses, so they could be replaced by random ones like a 3-floor Deep Dungeon...and sometimes including random bosses, too. Frankly, if you met something else that the Lava Scorption at the end of Sohm Al HM, you wouldn't have bat an eye.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lersayil
I'd say it's something we had and used, apart from the recent addition of "interruption". When was the last time where using CC actually had a strategic use ? The last time someone actually used Sleep or Repose with meaningful (though not game-breaking) results ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lersayil
The last 3 of these examples I would classify (personal opinion) as tedium and unfun incarnate, and really wish they never become a thing in any regularly run content.[/QUOTE] -
10-31-2019, 10:32 PMConnor
So from my understanding of this thread:
We don’t want dungeons to have decision making, or difficult enemies, or enemies that require specific strategies to defeat, or enemy abilities that have an effect beyond ‘deals direct damage’, and we don’t want access to any sort of skill that might impede the enemy in some way?
I mean, I’m not claiming these are ‘good’ or ‘bad’ wants; if that’s what people want then it’s not my place to try and suggest otherwise. Personally I would like to see generic dungeons be more engaging in general though. That doesn’t mean they have to have super difficult enemies or tons of branching paths, but I’d like to see them be a bit less simplistic in terms of going through them. I feel like dungeons currently are tuned to the absolute bottom limit of effort, which is fine, but I’d like to at least have to put in a modicum of effort when playing a video game (otherwise it’s like, ‘this game may as well be playing itself automatically’).
I mean, logically isn’t player input redundant anyway? It would be faster and more efficient if it was entirely automated, since all it technically does is give an illusion of choice anyway. So the question ends up being ‘where is the limit?’ with how ‘efficient’ we want the game to be. At what point do things go from being ‘simplistic’ to just being ‘boring’? And at what point do we continue/stop removing ‘pointless’ mechanics like crowd control, healing, non-DPS party buffs, enemy abilities, etc etc? -
10-31-2019, 11:04 PMReynhartAnd yet, we blame SE for the extreme streamlining of the game :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Connor
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10-31-2019, 11:08 PMTlamila
I really like the branches suggestion. As for "nobody likes Toto Rak" and "nobody explored the old dungeons", nobody is certainly not true. I for one liked Toto Rak and explored those dungeons fully, both back in the day and now with bleh squadron, and also DF parties back then opened all chests and all, in my experience.
I find these two suggestions particularly good:
Quote:
Originally Posted by manamoppet
Random parties can take the shortest route, or whoever wants to, but using Trust or playing with your friends you can explore everything at wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alleo
i'm not so much for randomization or for paths that are still linear but which change, cause linear is linear.
I'd also CC back, but this suggestion seems to have been even more unpopular than the other one. -
10-31-2019, 11:11 PMLersayilBasically yes. Daily dungeons and content run ad nauseam isn't a great place for complex trash mechanics, exploration or decision making (unless we're talking boss mechanics, but even those can push their welcomeness). The first few times might be interesting. Then it becomes boring and a pain in the butt. Meta forms, optimal paths get discovered, choices become meaningless. We might as well lean into it instead of trying to avoid it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Connor
We still have (and will have) content that has these aspects. But these are not places on the daily checklist, biut in randomly generated and / or more open and non scripted places.
EDIT: and just for reference, we've had CC in the past. Nobody used it. Developers chose to remove them instead of forcing the issue. I think they've made their choice on that matter. -
11-01-2019, 01:34 AMValicthe biggest issue in every post I see is this sentence here. Everyone assumes the choices and decision making has to be as simple as "party picks this boss for easier time". You can do things that alter decision making such as having dungeons play mini games like the gold saucer event mini game swapping cups all around and have people guess which one's correct in a similar fashion to the choice making made in the treasure hunts. You can have dps determine how fast a certain thing dies determine what boss comes up next. You can even simply have RNG traps that require the player to view a map posted on a wall ahead of time. No one's asking for choices like you'd find in a regular single player game where "you pick these, you'll get the good ending every time" type deals. They're wanting choices more akin to RNG factor that can make things interesting, easier or harder doesn't even have to matter. Just different experiences is the main gripe istead of the same linear path with 3 bosses in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lersayil
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11-01-2019, 05:39 AMSieyaM
I would love to have dungeons with branching paths and different ways to complete, but as has been stated in here, the paths would have to either all take roughly the same amount of time to complete or the would have to offer better rewards for taking longer paths. And it would have to be enough of an incentive to warrant spending the extra time. The latter is pretty well impossible because it appears that most of the population only runs the roulettes out of a necessity and they despise every minute they ever spend in a dungeon. So we are left with the former which is to make all paths the same length of time. Maybe one could be more of a series of boss type enemies and another could be more of a horde or swarm of enemies. I would say there could be more puzzles involved but that kind of content is generally disliked by FFXIV players.
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11-01-2019, 06:14 AMShurrikhanThe optimal path is the one that has the most reward per time spent, including time spent in queue. If a lesser reward nonetheless ends up more efficient due to the more greatly reduced time spent, you at best create a divide between premades quickly spamming the dungeon and DF DPS who'd rather earn back their time spent in queue with a full clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Ramping up rewards merely moves the balancing point for rewards; it does not suddenly fix all balancing issues.
The point is, why the obsession with the two-in-one deal? Why not just have the option of a harder/longer and easier/shorter dungeons runs altogether, ideally in different roulettes, saving us the conflicts of interest? Those who wanted A are presented with something in which to best do A; those who wanted B are presented with something in which to best do B.
Tl;dr: I want harder, longer dungeons. But I want a party who does, too. Let me choose what I want rather than leaving that for in-instance arguments from which the tank or healer will almost certainly leave in a puff of pettiness and lose more efficiency than any other factor could have been responsible for until we inevitably all just go the shortest route as to avoid dealing with drama. -
11-01-2019, 06:21 AMVulcann/facepalmQuote:
Originally Posted by Connor
i know i know you think you are being clever with the "lulz gamerz r lazy and don't want to think" post. but the reality is that after the optimal way is found (and yes there will always be an optimal way found) toxicity will run rampant if anyone deviates from the optimal path.
as i said it makes me wonder if you all just play in static groups only or if you are newer to the genre. because if you ever tried to deviate from the expected route in a game like WoW that did have big dungeons with many different paths, hell it had dungeons that you could exploit the terrain in order to bypass encounters.
and guess what if you didn't know (especially as the tank) the fastest way to go or how to exploit the terrain you were yelled at and usually kicked from the group. how do i know? well a couple times i decided to actually tank for a LFG group in WoW i went into a dungeon that i didn't know the fastest path. i didn't know there was a place you could jump over some terrain and i generally got a little lost(it was early in my wow "career")
i was called just about every name in the book and then booted "becuz noob" -
11-01-2019, 06:32 AMGranyalaNo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
What players want is fun. Most people do not find wiping fun and frankly put: 85% of this games community does not have, nor cares to acquire, the necessary skills to beat such content. These aren't nerd players of eld that rise to the challenge. The masses of players today have no interest in challenge. They want a quick and easy dopamine fix and then move on.
I am very much against "reward-forcing" gameplay. WoW does that far too much, to the point that the DEVs seemingly no longer care if the game is fun. If participation is too low, they just throw more rewards at the problem. -
11-01-2019, 06:47 AMShurrikhanI find the kind of fights in which wiping is likely to occur at least once before completing the fight to be fun, but I'm also aware that I'm at least the 40% of a 60/40 split, if not as small as the 10 against 90. I'd love to get content modifications that allow for the experience I enjoy, but I think it'd probably best be done as a broad system addition (e.g. seemingly automatic content modifications for true hard modes through scaling and a slew of additional mechanics) that can then be applied universally to those who want it, giving the greatest efficiency in content put out per development time spent. I feel that a few prototypes and then entrance into that broad system alongside some daily bonus dungeons (both modes, but, yes, with the hard mode rewarded at least proportionately to its time spent) would also draw the most players who previously did not enjoy challenge into at least considering whether they want to get better at the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Granyala
And, honestly, I do find such options vital to the game's longevity. "Quick and easy dopamine fixes," as you put it, gradually build a tolerance. There has to be some way to still get that enjoyment even after becoming capable with and invested in the mechanics of combat, and ideally beyond just Savage 8-mans.