Eden Savage Coffers

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

I'm afraid this would never work in the west. We only care about ourselves.

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Not really a western issue. Everquest community made player regulated systems of loot distribution work 20 years ago. It's the newer gaming generations that seem to have some issues with common courtesy. The ones that often call the older generation from rougher times toxic, ironically x)

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

You can, indeed. Arthars won all three coffers from E1S last week on his alt. My concern is limiting to only one person per week impacts statics, especially if said restriction also includes the upgrade items. If they made it so you could only Need one item per week, and once you won something, you only add the option to Greed. That might be a solution. Lets say you roll Need on everything but won the Ring. Your other two rolls immediately become "Greed" rolls or you're forced to roll on them a second time with Greed/Pass your only options.

This lets statics filter loot as they please but also lets pugs have better chances at obtaining something.

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the best solution so far seems this tbh

people keep focusing on statics but they already have a completely different mindset and organization, the item that you get improves the party dps for all the next raids, while in pug, you will never gain from that guy who won all the items because probably you will never meet him again on next clears or so. In any shape or form you will never lose as a static with or without the item lock after first obtained, or just transform all the needs in greed after the first item.
People can need on the most wanted item and greed/pass on those that dont want.

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Originally Posted by Shamsiel

the best solution so far seems this tbh

people keep focusing on statics but they already have a completely different mindset and organization, the item that you get improves the party dps for all the next raids, while in pug, you will never gain from that guy who won all the items because probably you will never meet him again on next clears or so. In any shape or form you will never lose as a static with or without the item lock after first obtained, or just transform all the needs in greed after the first item.
People can need on the most wanted item and greed/pass on those that dont want.

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Her solution is similar to the old normal mode loot and during certain weeks I had to run ten times certain turns to get the drop I needed/wanted. No matter what you do, the scenario of spending weeks without earning any loot (or the one you want) can only be avoided by joining to static with loot rules you are OK with.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Her solution is similar to the old normal mode loot and during certain weeks I had to run ten times certain turns to get the drop I needed/wanted. No matter what you do, the scenario of spending weeks without earning any loot (or the one you want) can only be avoided by joining to static with loot rules you are OK with.

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im not pretending gear up everything in one week and be done, im hoping for a system that reward as much players as possible because if 1/8 gets everything how is that fair? the others didnt clear the fight or what? when that person that got carried the entire fight gets more items that you could ever imagine, how do you feel?
im not ok with this system, last one was bad, but was a progress chained behind rng on actual items instead of rolls,
if the rolls decide everything, why should i bother to give my best? to not fail, to use food and pots? at the end of the day... it doesnt matter.

just today after clearing e2s, 1 healer got away with weapon token, head coffer and deepshadow upgrade while the other was carried so badly that had 4 stacks of damage taken before the last casts of the boss.
now i was trying to join e3s, and guess what happened... the pf now require 452/453 and so on. As times goes the ilevel required will increase and with the actual system even if you clear for weeks and got no reward you wont be able to join the party.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

Her solution is similar to the old normal mode loot and during certain weeks I had to run ten times certain turns to get the drop I needed/wanted. No matter what you do, the scenario of spending weeks without earning any loot (or the one you want) can only be avoided by joining to static with loot rules you are OK with.

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How so? The old normal mode loot system only allowed you to win a single item. Once you won something, you were done. My proposal doesn't lock down the loot rewards. For example sake lets use E1S. Everyone rolls Need on all three drops—with the Dragoon winning the Belt coffer. Their subsequent rolls are immediately turned into "Greed" rolls, which means any of the remaining seven players will win if they roll Need on the remaining two items. What this aims to accomplish is still allowing statics to distribute loot as they please but give pugs a better chance at getting something. Could you still lose out? Of course but your odds are better. You at least have a 1/6 chance on E1S; a 1/4 chance on the remaining three.

Keep in mind, Savage still has the one and done restriction. So you couldn't keep going back in to try again. I am not suggesting that change either.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

How so? The old normal mode loot system only allowed you to win a single item. Once you won something, you were done. My proposal doesn't lock down the loot rewards. For example sake lets use E1S. Everyone rolls Need on all three drops—with the Dragoon winning the Belt coffer. Their subsequent rolls are immediately turned into "Greed" rolls, which means any of the remaining seven players will win if they roll Need on the remaining two items. What this aims to accomplish is still allowing statics to distribute loot as they please but give pugs a better chance at getting something. Could you still lose out? Of course but your odds are better. You at least have a 1/6 chance on E1S; a 1/4 chance on the remaining three.

Keep in mind, Savage still has the one and done restriction. So you couldn't keep going back in to try again. I am not suggesting that change either.

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In the sense that you can only win one item per run and you have up to 4 items to roll. I know you can only run 1 turn of savage per week and earn loot, my point was to illustrate of an example of bad luck, in my case the equivalent for salvage will be 2 months and a half without loot.

To be honest, with your example a person still can win everything. Certain loot will have priority over anything else (a weapon over a chest piece for example). In ES4 everyone can roll need for the weapon and greed for the chest. The same person still can win both.

Edit: I'm aware that in your case probably people will roll for an item and hold for the other until all items are distributed. Still, IMO anyone that really cares about a "fair" distribution of the loot is better off joining a static.

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Originally Posted by Driavna

In the sense that you can only win one item per run and you have up to 4 items to roll. I know you can only run 1 turn of savage per week and earn loot, my point was to illustrate of an example of bad luck, in my case the equivalent for salvage will be 2 months and a half without loot.

To be honest, with your example a person still can win everything. Certain loot will have priority over anything else (a weapon over a chest piece for example). In ES4 everyone can roll need for the weapon and greed for the chest. The same person still can win both.

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No? If everyone rolled Need and both the weapon and chest, only the winner of the weapon has their subsequent rolls changed to "Greed". The remaining seven maintain a "Need" status, which means their rolls have priority. My proposal makes it literally impossible for one person to win everything unless everyone else allows for it. If you're attempting to roll on both weapon and chest in the hopes you at least get one. Either wait to roll on the chest or simply roll Need on both and see which you get. If everyone elected to roll Greed, well, that's on them.

I'm glad I'm in a good Static now.

But this is really a great change over the old one (for Statics that is). You have total control about how to gear your group so you can gear up DPS first then tanks and last healers.

This was a terrible idea honestly and I've hated it since I cleared E1S and saw it.

Even for premades it is bad because serious people will just funnel all the gear to their highest DPS players leaving healers and tanks (and maybe even dancers/bards) high and dry and it's just not fun.

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Originally Posted by Fhaerron

I'm glad I'm in a good Static now.

But this is really a great change over the old one (for Statics that is). You have total control about how to gear your group so you can gear up DPS first then tanks and last healers.

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I wouldn't really call something that makes even less people want to play healer in the expansion where we have a healer shortage a good change personally.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

No? If everyone rolled Need and both the weapon and chest, only the winner of the weapon has their subsequent rolls changed to "Greed". The remaining seven maintain a "Need" status, which means their rolls have priority. My proposal makes it literally impossible for one person to win everything unless everyone else allows for it. If you're attempting to roll on both weapon and chest in the hopes you at least get one. Either wait to roll on the chest or simply roll Need on both and see which you get. If everyone elected to roll Greed, well, that's on them.

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the system would have to be redesigned then because it player's choice to roll need/greed/pass. the system cannot do it for them if they rolled need and then it had to change to greed. also once you roll need or greed, you cannot pick the other, you can only choose pass.

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Originally Posted by FoxyAreku

I wouldn't really call something that makes even less people want to play healer in the expansion where we have a healer shortage a good change personally.

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What does this have to do with healers? My post was about how the savage loot works now. And it's a good change for Statics.


Your post describes the actually problem, the mentality of people and the 'me me me' selfish people. Raiding is a group effort. Gearing up the DPS is more efficient. And again all the loot going to our DPS first is an improvement to our group. The group DPS increases much more then it would if me, co-tank or one of our healers got the drop and there are no issues in tanking or healing anyway.
Individual parses and going for purple and orange comes after the tier is done and we have it on farm. We are not a hardcore raid group. We're only at 3/4 so far.


Explain how gearing up healers first would be an improvement?

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Originally Posted by Fhaerron

Explain how gearing up healers first would be an improvement?

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It more that gearing up tanks and healers later down the line deincentivizes doing the content as a healer/tank as part of a static. Not having the chance of getting any coffers before week 5 puts a serious damper on the desire of some to do savage content.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

It more that gearing up tanks and healers later down the line deincentivizes doing the content as a healer/tank as part of a static. Not having the chance of getting any coffers before week 5 puts a serious damper on the desire of some to do savage content.

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I'm a tank. Why would I want to loot for myself when it's more beneficial to have DPS get the loot first?


Again, raiding is a team effort.

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

the system would have to be redesigned then because it player's choice to roll need/greed/pass. the system cannot do it for them if they rolled need and then it had to change to greed. also once you roll need or greed, you cannot pick the other, you can only choose pass.

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Yes and with this system no one is using greed, everything is need, that's the main issue of a system that gives you 3 choices and on 1 is used
Need or autopass because you didn't get it.

I actually prefer the old method of having the loot drop and you would need it for your job.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

It more that gearing up tanks and healers later down the line deincentivizes doing the content as a healer/tank as part of a static. Not having the chance of getting any coffers before week 5 puts a serious damper on the desire of some to do savage content.

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This is a pretty big misconception that keeps getting put out there. I can't stress enough how wrong it is for the overwhelming majority of cases.

My group is also prioritising drops for DPS. If they want a piece, I will not even greed on it. Them getting the gear = we get faster clears and start skipping annoying mechanics sooner. Most of the time I won't roll against the tanks as well.

Yet despite that, on week 4 I've gotten 3 Edengrace 470 pieces and the 470 tome weapon. I've not spent any other tomes or any of my books yet. My co-healer is sitting on 5 Edengrace 470 pieces.

The trick here is that we are prioritising BiS for the most part. DPS have a little wiggle room within reason but beyond that, if it's not your BiS it goes down the chain until someone pipes up. If the DPS are being greedy and hoovering gear that they are likely going to replace within a week or two then that's a group issue, not a loot system problem.

But yeah, this idea that healers will go without loot for a month or more is completely untrue.

well I just lost my Bis to someone who got 2 of the 3 item drops from E1S and now i believe you should only be allowed to win 1 piece per week to stop someone from snatching up multiple pieces like that

I would propose to SE to implement a new loot rule system where pre-made groups (PF) can have the option of 1 loot only per person and they will lose the right to roll if they already got a loot from that round.

Now both statics and pugs can be happy. Statics can continue to use the current system, and pugs can join PF groups that have this option turned on if they wish.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

It more that gearing up tanks and healers later down the line deincentivizes doing the content as a healer/tank as part of a static. Not having the chance of getting any coffers before week 5 puts a serious damper on the desire of some to do savage content.

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As others have said, Savage is a team effort. Prioritizing the DPS means you can potentially skip things like Quietus or Titan's final Tumult spam. Both are [i]hugep/i] healer checks, thus making their job significantly easier while also being a straight parse advantage since you're clearing faster. Most groups also shift focus onto BiS unless they're still progging.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I actually prefer the old method of having the loot drop and you would need it for your job.

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Unfortunately, that system could result in you getting essentially nothing useful for ten weeks. While it does feel bad to lose out on rolls in a pug. It feels even worse not saying a Slaying accessory drop once for two straight months. And when one finally drops... you already the better tomestone version.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

This is a pretty big misconception that keeps getting put out there. I can't stress enough how wrong it is for the overwhelming majority of cases.

My group is also prioritising drops for DPS. If they want a piece, I will not even greed on it. Them getting the gear = we get faster clears and start skipping annoying mechanics sooner. Most of the time I won't roll against the tanks as well.

Yet despite that, on week 4 I've gotten 3 Edengrace 470 pieces and the 470 tome weapon. I've not spent any other tomes or any of my books yet. My co-healer is sitting on 5 Edengrace 470 pieces.

The trick here is that we are prioritising BiS for the most part. DPS have a little wiggle room within reason but beyond that, if it's not your BiS it goes down the chain until someone pipes up. If the DPS are being greedy and hoovering gear that they are likely going to replace within a week or two then that's a group issue, not a loot system problem.

But yeah, this idea that healers will go without loot for a month or more is completely untrue.

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Seconding this. My group's tanks and healers are almost BiS as far as savage drops are concerned already, and it's only week 4. We fed the hard hitter dps for the first week, and past that it was DPS / BiS.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Unfortunately, that system could result in you getting essentially nothing useful for ten weeks. While it does feel bad to lose out on rolls in a pug. It feels even worse not saying a Slaying accessory drop once for two straight months. And when one finally drops... you already the better tomestone version.

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In all fairness, if the tomestone version is better...why do you care? You're proposing that it's better for you to take the less optimal piece sooner and screw over another member of your group just so you get a piece that you're going to replace a week or two later.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

It more that gearing up tanks and healers later down the line deincentivizes doing the content as a healer/tank as part of a static. Not having the chance of getting any coffers before week 5 puts a serious damper on the desire of some to do savage content.

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as part of a static, your goal should be what benefits the team first.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

In all fairness, if the tomestone version is better...why do you care? You're proposing that it's better for you to take the less optimal piece sooner and screw over another member of your group just so you get a piece that you're going to replace a week or two later.

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No? I'm saying it sucks that you see no accessories for your role for several weeks, and when you finally do. It's essentially useless. The system now makes the odds of not having a chance for an accessory or belt very low.

As a PF user, I am also really not a fan, RNJesus has not been in my favour and after 4 weeks of clears, I still have only 2 loots from the 3 floors...

Got 1 piece of gear from doing first 3 fights in 4 weeks about more then half way through titan at the moment. This is probably the least amount of gear I have ever got in a raid tier after 4 weeks. Having specific pieces dropped to roll on seemed way better. Not that a care that much I should eventually win the pieces i need or get them with books. I just prefer and find the old loot system to be better.

I've never rolled over 50.... It's frustrating to have a low chance to get something because you always have to roll against 7 other.
Also once one player got everything.... This was not possible with the old system.

They should have keept the old system for the first month or so and then change it to the current one.

For unlucky persons like me the system changed from " when something drops I get it 100% because the other tank has it" to "I roll every week on everything I need and the person who gets it use it for is 2nd class".

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Originally Posted by Curisu

For unlucky persons like me the system changed from " when something drops I get it 100% because the other tank has it" to "I roll every week on everything I need and the person who gets it use it for is 2nd class".

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I've seen people roll on mount drops who had 96 totems... like really? You couldn't bare those additional 3 runs, totaling maybe 10 minutes, to spare someone else hours of grinding? That's just how some/many people roll (pun intended ^^). They'll roll need against main jobs to gear their 5th job they don't even play, just because they can.

Maybe people should be less concerned with what other people are getting and more with what they are getting. Jealousy isn't pretty.

Fact is, you're more likely to get something now. It's a flat 1/8 chance at every single item that drops.
Instead of having a 1/7 chance that something will drop for your job, before competing against other players, and there's a chance that it's an item you already have.
For tanks, that becomes a flat 1/14 chance right off the bat. Or healers, or anyone who is competing against another player.
As you make progress, maybe the other tank/healer/dps-of-the-same-role already has that item, but similarly, maybe you do. Maybe a tank item drops, but it's a tank belt, and you already have the belt. So it's effectively less than a 1/7 chance of getting something you can even roll on.

That's for PUGs of course.
For statics, this system is objectively superior, because you can distribute gear as needed to help the team.

The new loot system get worst by week because itll always flat 1/8, on the old system since you cant loot what you already have the chance is actually getting bigger... well argueable... i know

And the new system also feel worst than before because now its vs player (loot number) instead the old vs system (drop or not)...

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Originally Posted by Curisu

For unlucky persons like me the system changed from " when something drops I get it 100% because the other tank has it" to "I roll every week on everything I need and the person who gets it use it for is 2nd class".

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You have to consider what the odds are of you getting that tank drop though, which is 1/7. Yes, it's a guarantee if it drops, you could just as easily never see it. The current system at least guarantees a useful drop. Does it need some improvements? Yes. But it's far and away the superior system. Before you could collect what essentially amount to garbage if no one in your group plays the job which something dropped for—or they already have it.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

The new loot system get worst by week because itll always flat 1/8, on the old system since you cant loot what you already have the chance is actually getting bigger... well argueable... i know

And the new system also feel worst than before because now its vs player (loot number) instead the old vs system (drop or not)...

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Does it really feel better getting useless pieces to drop each week that no one even wants? Case in point, Ninja, Machinist and Dancer all want to avoid Skill Speed like it's the bubonic plague. If the Scouting gloves drop, even the Ninja won't want them. Seeing those week after week feels a lot worse since you more or less lost a drop that week. Except the whole group did as those gloves hit the floor.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

The new loot system get worst by week because itll always flat 1/8, on the old system since you cant loot what you already have the chance is actually getting bigger... well argueable... i know

And the new system also feel worst than before because now its vs player (loot number) instead the old vs system (drop or not)...

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Except it never gets any better than 1/7, and if there’s anyone competing against you for anything, then it’s 1/14 or even 1/21, or if you already have anything, it’s worse than 1/7.
Even if say, you have one item, and the other (let’s say tank again) already has something, then it’s still even odds of 1/14. The item the other tank has could drop and you’ve get it straight away, or the item you have could drop and you wouldn’t have a chance.
If it’s been several weeks, and the other tank doesn’t want anything from the fight, and you still don’t have anything, then even in this extreme scenario, it’s still 1/7.

That’s 14% tops, or as little as 7%, or 4% if you’re DPS and unlucky enough to be splitting it three ways.
Or, it’s a flat 12% chance across the board with the current system.

Remember, there are seven different gearsets, and only a maximum of six different sets can be played per party (fending, healing and up to four different DPS) which means there’d always been a 1/7 chance of NO ONE being able to roll need on it, and therefore being useless for prog.

You forgot that even if the people is not the said job as long as he have the gearpiece he cant loot it...

But it feels a lot better and is less frustrating to be not able to roll on something, because the Boss didn't drop it then to try the forth time to get a part you need just to see how a person who don't even need it, gets it.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

But it feels a lot better and is less frustrating to be not able to roll on something, because the Boss didn't drop it then to try the forth time to get a part you need just to see how a person who don't even need it, gets it.

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You don't know what other people need or don't need.
Again, jealousy isn't pretty.
If you're PUGing, you have only yourself to worry about.

You now have a 12.5% chance of getting everything that drops.
Instead of a 14.3% chance of something you can use even dropping, before competing against someone for a 7.1% final chance of you getting it.

Even in the best case scenario, of you having nothing already and your competitor already having everything they need, your chance never got better than 14.3%. Less Than 2% better than the current fixed rate.


And if you’re in a static, it’s better in every conceivable way. Nothing will ever use useless for the team, and you can direct gear to the players who need it the most.

Nothing felt worse than getting your groups one shot at a gear drop for the week, result in a piece that no one could use.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

This is also one of the reason the new loot system feel worst than the previous one for some people, you dont know and youll never know, the previous system at least let you know with the need/greed system.

The current one? Someone who only have one level 80 job and no plan leveling the others might have 9 same type coffer one in each retrainer and saddlebag and still press need... youll never know... scary right? Heh

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Your jealousy is showing again.
In this example, the problem is 100% YOU. For assuming the worst of people.
This is everything that’s wrong with society today. People would rather spend more to stop other people getting something, than less to give everyone a better chance. Vindictive jealousy.

Just look at the numbers.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

When they already wear the part then I'm 100% sure that they don't need again for that class.

Like yoshi said, long term it is the best way but in the first weeks it feels really frustrating to get nothing while some already equipping their 2nd class.

Btw. I'm a sort of player, when the group was nice and I got any drop, then I pass on everything else. And also I just roll on things I really need on my main.
And this current loot system would work if everyone would handle it a bit like I do, but sadly we have far to many selfish, egotistic player.
I bet the system works fine on the JP server.

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And yet, even in this rare case, the old system would only give you a less than 2% better chance of getting that specific piece of gear.
Meanwhile, the benefits of the new system, for both PUGs and Statics, but ESPECIALLY Statics, is huge.

You’re only focusing on the tiny extra cost, instead of the huge boost in value you’re getting for it.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

You don't know what other people need or don't need.
Again, jealousy isn't pretty.

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This is also one of the reason the new loot system feel worst than the previous one for some people, you dont know and youll never know, the previous system at least let you know with the need/greed system.

The current one? Someone who only have one level 80 job and no plan leveling the others might have 9 same type coffer one in each retrainer and saddlebag and still press need... youll never know... scary right? Heh

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

You don't know what other people need or don't need.
Again, jealousy isn't pretty.
If you're PUGing, you have only yourself to worry about.

You now have a 12% chance of getting everything that drops.
Instead of a 14% chance of something you can use even dropping, before competing against someone for a 7% final chance of you getting it.

Even in the best case scenario, of you having nothing already and your competitor already having everything they need, your chance never got better than 14%. Only 2% better than the current fixed rate.

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When they already wear the part then I'm 100% sure that they don't need again for that class.

Like yoshi said, long term it is the best way but in the first weeks it feels really frustrating to get nothing while some already equipping their 2nd class.

Btw. I'm a sort of player, when the group was nice and I got any drop, then I pass on everything else. And also I just roll on things I really need on my main.
And this current loot system would work if everyone would handle it a bit like I do, but sadly we have far to many selfish, egotistic player.
I bet the system works fine on the JP server.

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Originally Posted by Curisu

When they already wear the part then I'm 100% sure that they don't need again for that class.

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Would you prefer them to use their less geared jobs, for which they need the loot, instead, and bring less DPS to the group?


I just don't understand how people can find it unfair that every party member, all who have contributed in defeating the boss, have a 100% equal chance for all loot.

One of the main issue that the new system has is freedom. Too much freedom.
If you can need, you need, that's the whole point after you did 10 min of a fight and I don't know how many tries.

But this system is far from perfect, for pugs the sole fact the you can drop any amounts of items, even same coffers that don't count as unique, maked everything worst.

On the old system you could need your items, yes, but after the first item, you couldn't even greed it and everyone in the party was free to greed that same item and gear up a second job.
Now, the new system doesn't care if you have already 4 or 5 of those items, the sole purpose of UNIQUE in the item description is missing, because coffers don't count.
You could simply remove it really.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Would you prefer them to use their less geared jobs, for which they need the loot, instead, and bring less DPS to the group?


I just don't understand how people can find it unfair that every party member, all who have contributed in defeating the boss, have a 100% equal chance for all loot.

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Yes, they should all get the reward, one of these is the book. The other? A gamble.

I don't want a big change in the new system.
I just want to let the most amount of people happy about the clear, making so that you can drop only 1 items per run can make 3 or 4 people each party a little more rewarded.
Yes the odds now are 12% each roll
But with a locked need after the first, the last item has a 20% chances to drop...
Not high but not so bad as the first item.