We are in need of a official response to the healer situation

-insert nomspopcorn emote-

You don't have to personally play it to know when something doesn't seem right. Just from observing:

WHM core identity issues and clipping/mobility issues have not been fixed, they forced an instant heal on us instead thinking this will solve everything.
Our lilies now shoots out heals 100% identical to heals we already have. And their ultimate Lily payoff is a DPS loss unless you spam the new heals during downtime. #fixed!!

SCH has been gutted and given excessive healing capabilities to overheal with. I think it tells you something about what they think of healers when instead of making Selene useful for something, they effectively remove her from the game. Titan on SMB would have been easier to remove yet they reworked him. They couldn't do the same for Selene?

Stop giving AST spells and abilities effectively the same as WHM spells and abilities. I thought we were moving away from this crap? What was the point of fixing up Plenary Indulgence, and then giving it to AST too? You couldn't think of ANYTHING else?

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Originally Posted by Feidam

At the end of day if you really want to make your point stop playing healers.

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I don't think that's a good way to express our issues, though. If you don't play healers, how can you give more concise feedback? It's already widely known on this forum that healers are malcontent with the current build, and that there's a LOT of people yelling at the top of their lungs to fix Healers in a proper way other than how this is considered garbage. I can argue over significant tools(buffs/debuffs) that some jobs have over another, but again to bring out the "black sheep" of the Healers(WHM, despite it being called White Mage it was ignored all of Stormblood up until 4.5) they've needed a significant change for a long time, and what they received isn't it because it's more of the same kit they already have except allowing movement options every 30s, plus a 900 potency to make up for the 1200 potency you lose.

SCH I can understand their huge issue with Art of War and...well, going from a complex job to a very simple system. They had to knock SCH down a few notches because it's been dominant for 2 expansions now and Yoshida knows it because of usage rates.

AST most people are hateful for because they're taking away their big card gimmick that people liked. They've always come out on top against WHM since Heavensward(despite the rocky inception), and have eclipsed WHM since then because they constantly buff it each expansion in fear of it being like it was back in Heavensward.

The one thing I think Yoshida is trying to get across is that complexity need not be what makes everything fun when it comes to a job. Since Heavensward, they've had huge gaps between people who play and wants to close it some so that more people can have a chance at Savage as well, considering how people have the tendency to have cold feet when even asking about Savage in the first place(because everyone seems to think it's hard; which it is, and just wants it handed to them on a silver platter).

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Originally Posted by Laphael

Those make no sense:
"Well you don't have all the healers capped."
"Well your iLvl is too low."
"Wait until the 24-man is finished."
"You don't even have you Relic."
"Wait until 5.5."

The others are common sense.

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Ummmmmmmm sorry sweaty but you’re opinion is invalid because there’s a future :)

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Originally Posted by reyre

So not only you dont get the point, but also adress a bigger issue "outdated content" for whom? the new players? the players that want to level up their clases with other than PotD or HoH? Players that do roulette? The simple fact that you consider content not 70-80 "oudated content" is an issue on itself, because the game is not only 70-80 despite what you might belive, so im going to take a stab in the dark here and say that by oudated content you mean content that doesnt get played as much? you mean from 1-70? that seems to be apretty big chunk of "oudated content"

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How did you even get here? Out of what I said what you chose to latch on is the words "outdated content", completely forgetting the context of my statement?

Here's what I said, and what took 3 posts of clarification: "These changes will impact Stormblood (content that is not in the expansion) the same way Stormblood changes impacted Heavensward (content that was not in the expansion back then)". That is all. And in addition to that, what I am saying is that people do not care about content before the expansion. The complete lack of posts complaining that <insert pre-Stormblood content> is boring during Stormblood is evidence of that.

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Originally Posted by Feidam

Thread after thread on the forums repeating the same thing does not accomplish anything when we know they will do nothing until the bulk of players try the content.

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This feedback helped me make decisions about what to do when ShB launches. What all the messages telling people to shut up and wait accomplish exactly?

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Originally Posted by AikenDrum

This feedback helped me make decisions about what to do when ShB launches. What all the messages telling people to shut up and wait accomplish exactly?

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So do you live by letting people make decisions for you?

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

That's a poor strawman and you know it.

If healing is pure agony in all casual content you do daily, and only fun in latest Savage/EX/Ultimate that you do a few times a week, it's bad design.

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I suggest you review what a strawman is. Let's try again:

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

The problem seems to be that the class developer team of four people quite obviously only have a vague idea about how healers work in theory, and they made healer changes for ShB based on that.

Most healers are upset by these changes, because they know the changes are awful, based on the fact that they have intimate knowledge on how healing works in practice in all content.

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These developers, who "only have a vague idea about how healers work in theory", are designing the changes in the context of SHB - on which they have full knowledge.

Most healers upset by the changes, who have intimate knowledge on how healing works in practice in all content, except in the context of SHB somehow know that the changes are awful for SHB, the context in which they are designed.


Now to clarify, I don't know what it's going to be like in the new content, because I don't know the new content. It could be perfect, or it could be a shitshow. Nobody knows until we see it.

But if you look at the forum, everyone apparently knows everything. The OP is a perfect example: "Healers are just not fun anymore... Healer gameplay is just boring... Healers are doomed". This person has already made up his mind. He has already played the entirety of SHB in his head.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Most healers upset by the changes, who have intimate knowledge on how healing works in practice in all content, except in the context of SHB somehow know that the changes are awful for SHB, the context in which they are designed.

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We know what they are compared to varied levels of healing requirements. If your changes fail even in the face of ultimate content levels of healing then it's a safe bet ShB won't provide enough healing for it to be worthwhile.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

How did you even get here? Out of what I said what you chose to latch on is the words "outdated content", completely forgetting the context of my statement?

Here's what I said, and what took 3 posts of clarification: "These changes will impact Stormblood (content that is not in the expansion) the same way Stormblood changes impacted Heavensward (content that was not in the expansion back then)". That is all. And in addition to that, what I am saying is that people do not care about content before the expansion. The complete lack of posts complaining that <insert pre-Stormblood content> is boring during Stormblood is evidence of that.

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Hmmm 3 post and you still dont get it, well either way, it matters not, this post are only a very small fraction of the player base, so using it as evidence of anything is ridiculous. And in addition to that, what am saying is that people do care about content before the exapnsion. The fact that new players still have to do it is evidence of that. But then again it looks like you completely forgot the context of my statement.

Reagrdless you are using post as evidence of anything, so that is enough for me, to know this is going nowhere.

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Originally Posted by AikenDrum

This feedback helped me make decisions about what to do when ShB launches. What all the messages telling people to shut up and wait accomplish exactly?

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Except this feedback could be erroneous and then given you the wrong impression. And you have now made a decision without personal experience. Granted they could also be right, but even then it doesn’t mean you would have the same experience while playing.

Not telling anyone to shut up, but at the end of the day there been almost daily threads on this for weeks now. I think they know of the initial response. We know their stance is try it first. It has been that way since day one and threads demanding official response and immediate action solves nothing. However, feedback with proof given in concise statements with explanations without all the emotions does provide a needed resource. Keeping it to one or two places allows for quicker access as well. Even then you need to use experience from the new style. Past experience is great, but if they have changed stuff they will put any feedback aside until it is played by the majority.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

I don't think that's a good way to express our issues, though. If you don't play healers, how can you give more concise feedback? It's already widely known on this forum that healers are malcontent with the current build, and that there's a LOT of people yelling at the top of their lungs to fix Healers in a proper way other than how this is considered garbage. I can argue over significant tools(buffs/debuffs) that some jobs have over another, but again to bring out the "black sheep" of the Healers(WHM, despite it being called White Mage it was ignored all of Stormblood up until 4.5) they've needed a significant change for a long time, and what they received isn't it because it's more of the same kit they already have except allowing movement options every 30s, plus a 900 potency to make up for the 1200 potency you lose.

SCH I can understand their huge issue with Art of War and...well, going from a complex job to a very simple system. They had to knock SCH down a few notches because it's been dominant for 2 expansions now and Yoshida knows it because of usage rates.

AST most people are hateful for because they're taking away their big card gimmick that people liked. They've always come out on top against WHM since Heavensward(despite the rocky inception), and have eclipsed WHM since then because they constantly buff it each expansion in fear of it being like it was back in Heavensward.

The one thing I think Yoshida is trying to get across is that complexity need not be what makes everything fun when it comes to a job. Since Heavensward, they've had huge gaps between people who play and wants to close it some so that more people can have a chance at Savage as well, considering how people have the tendency to have cold feet when even asking about Savage in the first place(because everyone seems to think it's hard; which it is, and just wants it handed to them on a silver platter).

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Ok maybe I should have spelled it out more, but obviously should play gather data and then you give your feedback. If feel that strongly you stop playing and let the pop drop a bit. They will get the hint. If it really is that large of an issue. I suspect like with the Lily issue in stormblood the bulk of the players will keep playing and ultimately won’t care. Forum users are the real minority of the game.

Understand the scholar disappointment too. I hate that we’ve lost the dots, bane and Shadowflare. I love being a dot class. However, minus the MP cost art of war really isn’t that far off of gravity or holy. Hell the tooltip I saw it had ten more potency. Granted they will need to tweak the other dps spells a bit to get them in line imo. I know what I think is going to happen when I play the class come launch, but until I try it I don’t know 100%. All the other changes to the game could combine to make a fun experience. Admittedly soloing will be a bit dull.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

We know what they are compared to varied levels of healing requirements. If your changes fail even in the face of ultimate content levels of healing then it's a safe bet ShB won't provide enough healing for it to be worthwhile.

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It would be a good metric, if the current Ultimates were designed in the context of SHB.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

It would be a good metric, if the current Ultimates were designed in the context of SHB.

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I would *love* to know what "content" magically un-clunks a kit. Maybe we'll get a boss that temporarily changes healer hotbars to contain varied, interesting gameplay!

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Originally Posted by Gula

So do you live by letting people make decisions for you?

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So do you live by refusing to shape your decisions based on available data, some of which will be supplied by other people?

Thinking for yourself involves reviewing, critiquing, and incorporating/synthesizing the thoughts of others. Or did you educate yourself in a completely deductive fashion mentally with no empirical input from the outside world?

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

So do you live by refusing to shape your decisions based on available data, some of which will be supplied by other people?

Thinking for yourself involves reviewing, critiquing, and incorporating/synthesizing the thoughts of others. Or did you educate yourself in a completely deductive fashion mentally with no empirical input from the outside world?

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I fully believe the only real data comes from experiencing for oneself and ignoring outside input outside of a proceed with caution.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I would *love* to know what "content" magically un-clunks a kit. Maybe we'll get a boss that temporarily changes healer hotbars to contain varied, interesting gameplay!

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Just because it's called Ultimate does not mean it does not suffer from the same healing design issues as Savage.

What if you design content in such a way that dropping an OGCD or a Regen does not take care of the whole thing?

Can you really not think of ways to force healers to use some GCDs?

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

I fully believe the only real data comes from experiencing for oneself and ignoring outside input outside of a proceed with caution.

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I see, I've been doing scientific research wrong since my undergraduate days! I need to repeat every experiment ever done in my field myself, because I cannot rely on the papers and work of colleagues!

Be right back, building time machine so I can actually witness paleoecosystems firsthand instead of relying on meta-synthesis of paleoecological, functional morphometrics, paleoclimate proxy, and depositional environment studies.

I'll have to reinvent physics starting from Aristotle first though.

-------------------

Listening to other people is not the failing so many seem to think it is. Working in the sciences, where a given person can only be a true expert in a very narrow field of study, has taught me respect for the consensus of experts from other fields without being blindly obeisant (neontologists can run all the models they want, if it doesn't line up with the fossil record I'm gonna be skeptical of it).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

I see, I've been doing scientific research wrong since my undergraduate days! I need to repeat every experiment ever done in my field myself, because I cannot rely on the papers and work of colleagues!

Be right back, building time machine so I can actually witness paleoecosystems firsthand instead of relying on meta-synthesis of paleoecological, functional morphometrics, paleoclimate proxy, and depositional environment studies.

I'll have to reinvent physics starting from Aristotle first though.

-------------------

Listening to other people is not the failing so many seem to think it is. Working in the sciences, where a given person can only be a true expert in a very narrow field of study, has taught me to respect for the consensus of experts from other fields without being blindly obeisant (neontologists can run all the models they want, if it doesn't line up with the fossil record I'm gonna be skeptical of it).

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This subforum has like three experts on it.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Just because it's called Ultimate does not mean it does not suffer from the same healing design issues as Savage.

What if you design content in such a way that dropping an OGCD or a Regen does not take care of the whole thing?

Can you really not think of ways to force healers to use some GCDs?

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No, these people cannot really think of this. They're the same people that immediately fall victim to their initial reactions when something's reported on the news, and still won't change their stance even when new facts come to light.

Yes, there's stuff that looks annoying overall in the changes. Yes, people are going to be mad. Yes, things might suck for a bit. But the developers gather playdata, as well as feedback AFTER the changes have launched, and make adjustments based on what they feel is necessary.

This process will always repeat itself, and it's always the same people every time reacting before the paint dries.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

I fully believe the only real data comes from experiencing for oneself and ignoring outside input outside of a proceed with caution.

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Can't tell if serious or not.jpeg

If you're serious, you're a fool. That would mean you discard all scientific data because you didn't experience it personally.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Just because it's called Ultimate does not mean it does not suffer from the same healing design issues as Savage.

What if you design content in such a way that dropping an OGCD or a Regen does not take care of the whole thing?

Can you really not think of ways to force healers to use some GCDs?

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I don't consider spamming Cure to be "varied, interesting gameplay", so no I don't think forcing healers to use GCDs fixes the problem.

I've said it elsewhere. This game's healing GCD kits are not complicated. They're a set of Simon Says buttons that you use in a short list of decisions. I don't mind healing being simple, as long as I have something fun to manage while doing it. Square disagrees.

So I restate: what content design magically un-clunks a kit?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

This subforum has like three experts on it.

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I'm honestly more responding to the "I think for myself and stick to mah convictions no matter what!" sentiment itself here. I find it poisonously anti-intellectual.

Anyone who says they think for themselves by actively ignoring outside sources of information really just means they cherry pick what outside information they choose to consider. Because no one actually does, or can, figure out the world from purely deductive reasoning (the enlightenment got that one wrong, along with the assumption people are rational actors by default). Nor can anyone on their own replicate the entire sum of mankind's empirical experimentation and learning from scratch within a single human lifetime.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

I'm honestly more responding to the "I think for myself and stick to mah convictions no matter what!" sentiment itself here. I find it poisonously anti-intellectual.

Anyone who says they think for themselves by actively ignoring outside sources of information really just means they cherry pick what outside information they choose to consider. Because no one actually does, or can, figure out the world from purely deductive reasoning (the enlightenment got that one wrong, along with the assumption people are rational actors by default). Nor can anyone on their own replicate the entire sum of mankind's empirical experimentation and learning from scratch within a single human lifetime.

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Sure.

But this is a game.

I think bringing the scope of the entirety of humanity here and using it as some sort of argument for the game itself is equally flawed as using the logic of anti-vaxxers.

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Originally Posted by Semirhage

I don't consider spamming Cure to be "varied, interesting gameplay", so no I don't think forcing healers to use GCDs fixes the problem.

I've said it elsewhere. This game's healing GCD kits are not complicated. They're a set of Simon Says buttons that you use in a short list of decisions. I don't mind healing being simple, as long as I have something fun to manage while doing it. Square disagrees.

So I restate: what content design magically un-clunks a kit?

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Nowhere did I say spam Cure. Most unhappy healers complain about the changes because we spend too much time DPSing with an easy rotation. If making you put your healing kit to use is not enough for you, then what exactly do you want?

What do you want from the healer role? What do you consider an "un-clunked" kit?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Sure.

But this is a game.

I think bringing the scope of the entirety of humanity here and using it as some sort of argument for the game itself is equally flawed as using the logic of anti-vaxxers.

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This is what I initially responded to...

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Originally Posted by Gula

So do you live by letting people make decisions for you?

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which was aimed at someone who said that the debate in this forum had helped them come to a decision on Shadowbringers.

I don't care what the venue or topic is. Encouraging ossification of opinion against input of evidence is not something I'm going to stay quiet about. And since it's that philosophy itself I'm taking aim at, I will use the strongest example I can to show why it's bogus.

So, to be clear, I'm not making an argument for or against the game here. I'm taking a bat to a poisonous philosophy in isolation from it.

--------------

As to the game, when I see evidence of game design that supports Square Enix knowing all along what they were doing with healers in this game, I will gladly admit to having been overly cynical and pessimistic. For the moment, however, what's available to us points towards the game design not changing to support the playstyle for healers Square professes they want. I'm going to engage in discussion with what we have rather than waiting to see, for absolute certain, if something later disproves my stance. Because when it comes, it comes, and I should adapt my analysis to fit the data at that point in time and not before.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Nowhere did I say spam Cure. Most unhappy healers complain about the changes because we spend too much time DPSing with an easy rotation. If making you put your healing kit to use is not enough for you, then what exactly do you want?

What do you want from the healer role? What do you consider an "un-clunked" kit?

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White Mage.

If you want to "un-clunk" something, you need to know where the strain is. The constraint for WHM is the fact that EVERYTHING IS GCD and their only real go-to oGCD will be Aero II. It's been a problem with the job for a long ass time, and they haven't done anything about it. Just tack on more heals that incite the GCD through resources instead of giving WHM what they really need...

SCH hasn't had fluidity issues outside of more or less having a redundant emergency button(which should NEVER be used unless in the most dire of situations) called Dissipation. It was a bit of an awkward capstone since all it does is give Largesse and 3 stacks of Aetherflow for a set amount of time. If you wanted to change it, it'd just be that ability. Going into the expansion however SCH lost its biggest ability that they need: Energy Drain. Otherwise, their stacks have nothing to go towards when we actually need our Aetherflow to adjust. It's the biggest flaw right now in SCH's kit. If it had Energy Drain? I wouldn't mind. The main thing they're trying to limit is MP Regeneration, since that seems to be the biggest thing here. Easiest thing they could do is just remove the MP absorption and be done because otherwise, SCH was developed pretty badly in the rework.

AST on the other hand...surprisingly looks ok going in. They nerfed cards, sure, but that was so they weren't overwhelmingly powerful in utility so as they can just overpower WHM like they have all of Stormblood, especially with the 1.5s GCD which allows them to weave.

Removing the constraints and improving it so as to create fluidity in a job while keeping its dynamic is key to making it "un-clunked".

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Originally Posted by Kuurei

Yes, there's stuff that looks annoying overall in the changes. Yes, people are going to be mad. Yes, things might suck for a bit. But the developers gather playdata, as well as feedback AFTER the changes have launched, and make adjustments based on what they feel is necessary.

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You had me until that last part where they "make adjustments based on what they feel is necessary." Historically they've be perfectly happy to let broken things stay broken for a really long time.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Nowhere did I say spam Cure

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You didn't need to. Bit of an oversimplification though it may be, that's what enforced GCD healing in this game pretty much is. There's no resource consideration of note, no real triaging, no rotations, no skill chains, nada. You see the party took damage? Cast an AOE heal. One person? Regen if they're fine, Cure 2 if they're not. Done. As a side note, I don't think this game's GCD, engine, or broad encounter design would fit any of those previously mentioned healing design directions very well.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

If you want to "un-clunk" something, you need to know where the strain is...

Removing the constraints and improving it so as to create fluidity in a job while keeping its dynamic is key to making it "un-clunked".

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Largely this.

I like the different approach to healing FFXIV's design has afforded (or hinted at in the case of WHM). I like keeping balls in the air and juggling multiple responsibilities. I think our healing kits under this paradigm are interesting precisely because their simplicity allows people to figure out how to weave their utilities together at the high end while still functioning at the very low end. I think that's cool.

I hate these changes because they reveal that the development direction here is "juggling bad, cure spam good". That's a yikes (and a DPS class in SHB) from me dawg.

To be quite honest I'm nearly expecting the Dev's to roll back on the Healer changes within a few weeks of launch as the changes are being panned as bad in general, AST always had the worst DPS options and now WHM and SCH are being nerfed to that level which people do not enjoy, as a healer I want to be able to DPS when healing isn't needed but spamming one button constantly is off putting, what were gonna end up seeing is because of the changes to tanks that DPS and Tanks will be plentiful and healers hard to get because people are going to quickly become bored and stop playing it.

They need to give WHM Aero III back, they need to give AST some new DPS ability and they really need to leave SCH's Miasma 1 and 2 be and stop deleting it, give SMN a replacement DOT or something but leave SCH with the Miasma spells and Energy Drain.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

What do you want from the healer role? What do you consider an "un-clunked" kit?

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Not them but for me, if they genuinely go against the last 6 years of their content design and make us heal more than 50% of the fight, creating interactive synergies between our skills would be a nice start; simple things like every third heal has increased potency or a CD that collapses active Hots to heal for w/e remaining potency or even converting x% of overhealing into a minor shield. Instead of the current design where they can all be boiled down to small heal, big heal, ogcd heal, gimmick heal, aoe heal, ogcd aoe heal, gimmick aoe heal, HoT, aoe HoT, HoT on the ground, 10% mitigation and a single target shield. Just add a dash of pretty animations and a few utility skills so people don't notice they are functionally the same healing jobs at their core. Granted they've always been like this in some form, which is why having a varied dps kit for sch's or interactive cards with ast and why people begged for whm to get something to break up the monotony of the healing design.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

And here I thought people learned a lesson with Gordias and were shown how badly community's feedback could negatively impact something before it's even out. I guess I was wrong.

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I'm a little bit late to the party here, but I thought I'd better chirp up and correct this snippet.

Gordias' immense difficulty spike was predominantly down to SE's QA team trying to save time by testing the encounter purely phase by phase. It's critical to be aware that not only was this with fresh cooldowns and full HP per phase, but for much of the testing period they also had various invuln buffs. It's been openly stated by Yoshida that the QA team never cleared A3S or A4S end to end.

The proof is in the pudding really. Whilst Yoshida claimed that the difficulty would be tuned back down somewhat for Midas, A6S ended up being significantly tougher than A2S. It's also not much of a stretch to suggest that A8S was mechanically a much more complex encounter than anything Gordias had, it just wasn't riddled with latency dependant mechanics and the DPS requirements were tuned to much more realistic levels.

TLDR: - The community's feedback was not to blame for Gordias' difficulty. Rather, the fault lay primarily at the hands of Yoshida's QA department.

https://www.4gamer.net/games/278/G027835/20151224179/ - One of the interviews where Yoshida talks about this.

https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...tions-requests - And here's a translation.

To get back ontopic. The talk about the overall weakness of the design of healer gameplay is bang on point. Honestly, in my opinion it goes much deeper than just the nature of each healers toolkit. There have been some encounters over the years with enjoyable quirks and gimmicks that did well to alleviate the expectation of a healer to just sit there throwing rocks. A2S and A5S are probably the best examples of this.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

I fully believe the only real data comes from experiencing for oneself and ignoring outside input outside of a proceed with caution.

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So are market analysts just time travellers from the future that just claim to use patterns in available data to make predictions of future outcomes?

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

So are market analysts just time travellers from the future that just claim to use patterns in available data to make predictions of future outcomes?

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No they're guessing simple as that sometimes they're right sometimes they're very very wrong.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

No they're guessing simple as that sometimes they're right sometimes they're very very wrong.

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They're right more often than you think. You only see when they're wrong because that's that kind of job.

As others have said though, go on denying the fundamentals of science. Whatever makes you happy.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

You had me until that last part where they "make adjustments based on what they feel is necessary." Historically they've be perfectly happy to let broken things stay broken for a really long time.

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Case in point, WHM. Been the worst healer for almost two expansions now, had half its kit destroyed in Stormblood without getting much in return, and we are now heading towards another 2 years of the same garbage with no end in sight.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

No they're guessing simple as that sometimes they're right sometimes they're very very wrong.

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The term you are looking for is educated guess. Which, as the name implies, is a guess based on facts and data. Nothing else is done here, since long-time players are very much able to read and predict SE's actions. Because, you know, they are pretty predictable since they never changed their patterns before, and all I've seen so far points in the direction that they still don't break with their patterns.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

To get back ontopic. The talk about the overall weakness of the design of healer gameplay is bang on point. Honestly, in my opinion it goes much deeper than just the nature of each healers toolkit. There have been some encounters over the years with enjoyable quirks and gimmicks that did well to alleviate the expectation of a healer to just sit there throwing rocks. A2S and A5S are probably the best examples of this.

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Yeah, the healer having to man a different role in the fight, for a specific mechanic, can be quite entertaining. Even old stuff like ARR dungeons where the healer just kites adds while the DPS burn the boss can be diverting.

There are also specific healing situations, at the correct ilvl, that are pretty intense for brief periods. Odin and Thordan EX when they were new, A4S Nisi (so much so most people cheesed it lol), O4S Almagest, etc. The issue remains that these situations are a) rare and b) scripted such that once you figure out the fight it's not different than any other raid-wide.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

No they're guessing simple as that sometimes they're right sometimes they're very very wrong.

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I think you vastly underestimate the frequency with which models, for marketing or otherwise, can accurately predict the future.

It is wise to be skeptical of modelling work, I can attest from experience that some people just think you can plug whatever data into a model and it will magically produce results. Ex. there was a graduate student who wanted to model groundwater flow in a watershed for which we don't even have detailed stratigraphic and tectonic maps (in the Cascades, where there's gonna be a LOT of faults).

However, good modelling work (aka strong background of traditional research to build model and supply input data, valid assumptions, model is tested and compared to known data along the way) is reliable, better than nothing, and essentially little different from drawing a conclusion based on available data yourself (the computer just does a LOT of hard math for you).

There's a world of difference between making an informed prediction, based on pattern and evidence, and "guessing."

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

Yeah, the healer having to man a different role in the fight, for a specific mechanic, can be quite entertaining. Even old stuff like ARR dungeons where the healer just kites adds while the DP burn the boss can be diverting.

There are also specific healing situations, at the correct ilvl, that are pretty intense for brief periods. Odin and Thordan EX when they were new, A4S Nisi (so much so most people cheesed it lol), O4S Almagest, etc. The issue remains that these situations are a) rare and b) scripted such that once you figure out the fight it's not different than any other raid-wide.

I think you vastly underestimate the frequency with which models, for marketing or otherwise, can accurately predict the future.

It is wise to be skeptical of modelling work, I can attest from experience that some people just think you can plug whatever data into a model and it will magically produce results. However, good modelling work (aka strong background of traditional research to build model and supply input data, valid assumptions, model is tested and compared to known data along the way) is reliable, better than nothing, and essentially little different from drawing a conclusion based on available data yourself (the computer just does a LOT of hard math for you).

There's a world of difference between making an informed prediction, based on pattern and evidence, and "guessing."

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As someone with a degree in natural sciences, I can only confirm your assessment about models. Models are based on observations and data gathered over a very long time span usually. Then, when the model is finished, it's tested against reality; you know that, say, this geological fault acts a certain way; does the model reproduce what you know? Yes? Good. The model is working as intended. No? Well, back to the programming stage you go, try figuring out what's wrong. The model is only completed when the calculated results coincide with reality. Making a good model is a pretty long work in progress.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

They're right more often than you think. You only see when they're wrong because that's that kind of job.

As others have said though, go on denying the fundamentals of science. Whatever makes you happy.

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and like I said if you arent going to be happy with healing do something else nobody is forcing you to play healer. You're complaining about reworks because your curves are higher than most others instead of thinking well it would be nice if all healers were able to keep the party alive and considering others that get stuck with terrible healers who only DPS and if they deign to notice toss out a heal. Nor are any of you considering that first and foremost you're playing a healer if keeping the party alive is too boring for you move onto another challenge DPSing without taking avoidable damage Tanking without taking avoidable damage speeding up your DPS rotations mastering each of your classes. SOmeone was compalining that the DPS check for something was too high because They the healer should be doing damage too. I'm sorry it dont work like that anymore Your new job is to keep the DPS and Tanks up. toss a dot in here and there.. What all of you are doing at this point is refusing to adapt or change.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

It would be a good metric, if the current Ultimates were designed in the context of SHB.

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Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Just because it's called Ultimate does not mean it does not suffer from the same healing design issues as Savage.

What if you design content in such a way that dropping an OGCD or a Regen does not take care of the whole thing?

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A few things:

- Ultimate requires roughly double the healing of Final omega and this is at lower ilvl synch. Keep that in mind. Everything else in the game requires less healing than final omega obviously so that's putting the bar high.
- Damage output in some phases are back to back and force GCDs. Even then you can optimize to hardly require any despite the intense checks. Shb toolkit will make this even easier.
- Shb will never require that much healing. Ever. (outside of ultimate of course)
- Even if it did, there's no effective damage spread that would keep us from optimizing via DPS. Short of perhaps putting absolutely all the damage into boss auto-attacks, or some strong constant party dot.. Maybe then we would have to chain spam. But obviously we know that's not happening, just from the mana management perspective.
- They've said things would be easy in a much clearer fashion than the elusive mention to higher healing requirements.

Yes we aren't 100% certain, but at this stage we're getting pretty darn close to knowing what to expect.

Besides like others have said. Your comment doesn't take into account the real gripes we have with the downtime toolkits. Which can't be fixed with content in the first place.