Why are standards seen as a crime in this game?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ilan

I didn't expect anything from you. If you experienced that then its nice for you but you call others, that haven't been as lucky as you, more or less liars. So cut the b.s. and enjoy your luck.

---

Am missing something here how is it possible we have two completely different experiences in their majority if we play both in EU servers the community shouldn't be that different as for what you describe it seems we playing different games.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

Actually, in Mists of Pandaria, WoW actually did lock the LFG tool behind completing Silver difficulty in a set of solo trials for each role you wished to use.

...

Though, this ended up being scrapped because it turned out that the majority of the playerbase was complete trash and found it too hard to beat Silver trials, because concepts like "Hit the bad guy" and "Don't stand in the fire" are too complex...

Blade and Soul also had its own version of player tutoring, with a training room that would get you to use your abilities either in a rotation of sorts, or stuff like reacting to certain enemy skills (Such as interrupting an AoE cast or defending against a high damage skill etc) though while these were optional, they gave some nice gear for completing them whilst teaching you quite a lot about how to actually play your class in different situations..

---

The problem with your anecdote is that the Proving Grounds in Mists of Panderia were optional and did not keep you from running dungeon instances. They weren't related to dungeon instances or raids at all. So no, they didn't lock LFG behind trials.

Challenge Modes were timed heroic instances in scaled down gear, with rewards such as titles and armor. They also had bronze, silver and gold levels, were entirely optional and came before the Proving Grounds.

Challenge Modes would be a fine addition to this game, as long as SE didn't give out more than titles and glamours. Bragging rights, "I got Challenger Gold in X" would be fine.

The Novice Hall in FFXIV is as useful as the training room in Blade & Soul. You get role/level-appropriate gear and 'get out of the fire' tactics. You get current combo training when you do your class/job quests, and it varies so much that it can't be included in Novice Hall. (Also, who really is going to stick to the basic level 15 rotation for the rest of the game?)

I wasn't particularly pleased with the B&S training room, since it came too early in the game to be useful. The combos in that game aren't as intuitive, either.

I understand why Novice Hall is optional -- I have alts on other worlds, and don't really want to spend the time and effort to go through the sessions more than once for each role.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

The problem with your anecdote is that the Proving Grounds in Mists of Panderia were optional and did not keep you from running dungeon instances. They weren't related to dungeon instances or raids at all. So no, they didn't lock LFG behind trials.

---

They did eventually in WoD, with the system they added in during MoP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

Challenge Modes were timed heroic instances in scaled down gear, with rewards such as titles and armor. They also had bronze, silver and gold levels, were entirely optional and came before the Proving Grounds.

Challenge Modes would be a fine addition to this game, as long as SE didn't give out more than titles and glamours. Bragging rights, "I got Challenger Gold in X" would be fine.

---

The issue with Challenge Modes both in WoW and this iteration for XIV, is it still doesn't actually incentivise anyone to actually know how to play the game at all in any way.

It's still relegated to optional side content, that no-one will care about doing outside the people whom already are pushing themselves to improve already despite the game doing literally nothing to promote that.

Challenge Modes would be as relevant as the PotD/HoH leaderboards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

The Novice Hall in FFXIV is as useful as the training room in Blade & Soul. You get role/level-appropriate gear and 'get out of the fire' tactics. You get current combo training when you do your class/job quests, and it varies so much that it can't be included in Novice Hall. (Also, who really is going to stick to the basic level 15 rotation for the rest of the game?)

---

This is where the difference is.

Novice Hall in XIV is only up to level 15.

Blade & Soul it went throughout your character progression up to and including max level. With it altering the rotation it gets you to practice as you unlocked new skills, sometimes expanding on previous iterations, sometimes creating completely new ones.

With each level of the Training Room providing some nice, level appropriate gear along the way.

Really, the only downside to B&S's training room, was some of the rotations it had you perform ended up wanting a specific timing between attacks, anything faster or slower was a fail.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

I understand why Novice Hall is optional -- I have alts on other worlds, and don't really want to spend the time and effort to go through the sessions more than once for each role.

---

They could make the thing an account-wide unlock. Meaning you'd only have to repeat it if you made new SE accounts and repurchased the game each time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ilan

Subpar players: Players that are not new anymore and don't know the basics of their job or can't do the easiest mechanics. You don't need to parse to see if someone has no clue what he/she is doing. Want an example? There you go: Two RDM in a dungeon, tank pulls normal and only one of them uses scatter. The one that doesn't use scatter is a subpar player because he/she doesn't know the basics of his/her class.

---

Anecdotes gloss over so much.

Scatter has a potency of 100, so in normal pull with 3 mobs, that's 300 damage with a 2 second cast.

Jolt, with a 2 second cast, has a potency of 180 and can be immediately followed by one of two spells with a potency of 300. Total is 480 potency for what is essentially a single cast.

Over 6 seconds, I can use jolt/verthunder or jolt/veraero twice, for a potency of 960 against single targets, or I can cast scatter 2 times, for a potency of 600.

It isn't subpar play ... it's a choice of spells or style of play that you just don't happen to agree with.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

Anecdotes gloss over so much.

Scatter has a potency of 100, so in normal pull with 3 mobs, that's 300 damage with a 2 second cast.

Jolt, with a 2 second cast, has a potency of 180 and can be immediately followed by one of two spells with a potency of 300. Total is 480 potency for what is essentially a single cast.

Over 6 seconds, I can use jolt/verthunder or jolt/veraero twice, for a potency of 960 against single targets, or I can cast scatter 2 times, for a potency of 600.

It isn't subpar play ... it's a choice of spells or style of play that you just don't happen to agree with.

---

I enjoy how you specifically chose a "normal pull" to be single pulling vs the actual normal pull which would be pulling to the wall 2-3 groups. It's suboptimal play at that point hands down.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

Jolt, with a 2 second cast, has a potency of 180 and can be immediately followed by one of two spells with a potency of 300. Total is 480 potency for what is essentially a single cast.

---

That is incorrect.

Instant spells don't mean no GCD.

Jolt > Veraero still consumes 2 GCD's and thus is still 2 spells worth of actions.

Time spent actually hard-casting is only relevant if the cast time exceeds that of your GCD, which in most cases is never relevant because few jobs have anything with longer than a 2.5s base cast time (Really, it's only BLM that does)

Thus in 10 seconds, you can cast 4 spells (Assuming no SpS so 2.5s GCD)

Those 4 spells can be Scatter x4 for 300 potency each (If we assume 3x mobs) for a total of 1200 potency.

Or they can be Jolt > Veraero > Impact > Veraero which is 180 + 300 + 240 + 300 = 1020 potency.

Thus, overall, using AoE against 3 targets is beneficial here.

Though, I won't go into the more in depth analysis which would then factor in Mana generation which then contributes to Moulinet/Riposte usage and with Riposte Combo also leading into a Verflare/Verholy which complicates things somewhat (Just like the Upheaval vs Fell Cleave argument technically should also factor in FC's reduction in CD on Infuriate which increases overall BG generation)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

They did eventually in WoD, with the system they added in during MoP.

---

This is not what you claimed initially, and you forgot that little part where players in WoD could still queue up for dungeons and LFR without having to ever visit the proving grounds. It was a gate for Heroic dungeons only.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

Anecdotes gloss over so much.

Scatter has a potency of 100, so in normal pull with 3 mobs, that's 300 damage with a 2 second cast.

Jolt, with a 2 second cast, has a potency of 180 and can be immediately followed by one of two spells with a potency of 300. Total is 480 potency for what is essentially a single cast.

Over 6 seconds, I can use jolt/verthunder or jolt/veraero twice, for a potency of 960 against single targets, or I can cast scatter 2 times, for a potency of 600.

It isn't subpar play ... it's a choice of spells or style of play that you just don't happen to agree with.

---

Thanks for trying to educate me but the point you are missing is that a normal pull is not one single mob, its several groups of mobs and if you don't use your AOE's in a situation like this you are a subpar player.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cheremia

I do not expect you to be a god.
I do not expect you to read guides.
I do not expect you to never get any damage
I do not expect you to never mess up anything.

But i do wonder why you do not Aoe on large pulls? Especially as a Bard? Why don't bards aoe?
I do expect you to learn by doing? Like, yo're new? Fine, i(or others) can tell you basic mechanics if they're important enough. Like, you don't have the fight fully down even if not first time? Fine???
BUT you keep dying to the same thing over and over and over and over?

I know you may be playing the game after a workday and are a little tired maybe. But are you sure playing in this state is enjoyable for you?

Games are there to be PLAYED. Not to do while paying more attention to something else in the meantime?
It's not that hard to pay a little attention... just... a TINY LITTLE BIT ATTENTION.


But what do i know, i and other people got called toxic raiders because we weren't responsible for wiping thundergod cid over 4 times and wondered what's going on and who needs help. Even though we just asked for people to pay a little attention.

---

If you get so easily upset on how other players conduct their roles is it enjoyable for you the game?

Is it ok to live that level of exaggerated concern on how other players decide to play their character roles/jobs?

And as a Bard will always aoe big pulls so not sure where this even come from.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hydralus

I've seen a non-zero number of bards not use AoEs at all so that's likely where it's coming from. It's not a large number - maybe 5%, but it's enough to stick in people's minds. Granted, I don't think complaining about these people will accomplish much other than venting some frustration because they likely don't care.

And as an aside I'm sure they, like many others, don't really think about it until the conversation is brought up. We don't wake up and log in and think, "Damn those bards who don't use AoEs, I hate them."

---

That is the point can not tell you that will understand because it is beyond me that kind of concern on how other players play their character roles, for me doesn't make any sense.

However agree with you that is important to talk about it at a level it does not upset players or cause them fear mongering to try and continue to enjoy the game, not knowing their irl difficulties for not playing their character roles according your ideal procedures, or someone else ideal aka perfect procedures.

Important is not to discourage recently joined players or casual players to keep enjoying the game just cause a butt-hurt doesn't like the way they play it or lives obsessed with their playing.

Because standards everyone is self-entitled to have them and the same ideal aka perfect standards you have on how bard should be plaid others will state that aren't their ideal dps/tank/heal rotation and that will only cause confusion on the player.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by van_arn

The issue is a bard that doesn't use aoe in a group pull isn't playing their role. They aren't playing any role. A chocobo companion could fill their slot and it wouldn't make much difference.

When you can be replaced by a companion, you're not worth your place in the party and the only thing you should earn is a kick.

---

Well you can always address the player in a constructive way if you can't address in a constructive way you can always take some communication classes and improve your communication skills in game and out of game.

Instead of telling the player he or she is unwelcome or useless for example refer the aoe skill and how to use it but always keep in mind maybe the player had in the previous team other self-entitled and had to adjust his/her way of playing that role to match the perfect someone else self-entitled standard before.

To be completely honest with you during this four years there were two situations while playing in two different dungeons with the similar layout and number of mobs where other two players offered me advise on how to play one role ninja and even at that received two contradictory directions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

That is incorrect.

Instant spells don't mean no GCD.

---

Which I forget when doing math and not actually playing through the skills.

Over 10 seconds, there will be a drop of 180 potency if you don't use the AoE. That may result in a drop in damage, or it may not, depending on gear level and weapon damage.

The term you are looking for in this case would be 'suboptimal', not 'subpar'. They don't mean the same thing. And it applies to the rotation, not the player.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

If you get so easily upset on how other players conduct their roles is it enjoyable for you the game?

Is it ok to live that level of exaggerated concern on how other players decide to play their character roles/jobs?

And as a Bard will always aoe big pulls so not sure where this even come from.

---

I've seen a non-zero number of bards not use AoEs at all so that's likely where it's coming from. It's not a large number - maybe 5%, but it's enough to stick in people's minds. Granted, I don't think complaining about these people will accomplish much other than venting some frustration because they likely don't care.

And as an aside I'm sure they, like many others, don't really think about it until the conversation is brought up. We don't wake up and log in and think, "Damn those bards who don't use AoEs, I hate them."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

Anecdotes gloss over so much.

Scatter has a potency of 100, so in normal pull with 3 mobs, that's 300 damage with a 2 second cast.

Jolt, with a 2 second cast, has a potency of 180 and can be immediately followed by one of two spells with a potency of 300. Total is 480 potency for what is essentially a single cast.

Over 6 seconds, I can use jolt/verthunder or jolt/veraero twice, for a potency of 960 against single targets, or I can cast scatter 2 times, for a potency of 600.

It isn't subpar play ... it's a choice of spells or style of play that you just don't happen to agree with.

---

But... doublecast works with scatter as well so you get 600 potency per doublecast against 3 targets rather than the 180+310 (490) against a single target. Even with later buffs to jolt/impact potency it's still a maximum of 580 potency single target vs 600 against 3.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ilan

Thanks for trying to aducate me but the point you are missing is that a normal pull is not one single mob, its several groups of mobs and if you don't use your AOE's in a situation like this you are a subpar player.

---

A 'normal' pull is a group of 3 mobs. That's the context of the original discussion, and it was accepted by the poster.

Do not count on DPS to use their AoE effectively if the tank also don't take into account positioning, timing, and DPS job.

As a dragoon, when a tank pulls three packs of mobs who encircle the tank, and every one of those mobs has a circular AoE, using straight-line AoEs while dodging mob AoEs doesn't work well.

As a summoner, if Aetherflow is on cooldown neither Bane nor Painflare is available. Shadow Flare is probably on cooldown as well, that stupid 60s recast isn't meant for speed-running an instance. Can't speak to Akh Morn, since my summoner is only level 69, but I don't really see using that against mobs.

As a Bard, Quick Nock and Rain of Death work well against packs of mobs, but if you don't use Straight shot and [Venemous/Wind] bite first, your songs aren't going to be as effective, and you'll suffer a DPS loss because it's your Bite procs that enhance your crit chance.

Spamming AoEs without thought to the other parts of your rotation is also suboptimal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

If you get so easily upset on how other players conduct their roles is it enjoyable for you the game?

Is it ok to live that level of exaggerated concern on how other players decide to play their character roles/jobs?

And as a Bard will always aoe big pulls so not sure where this even come from.



That is the point can not tell you that will understand because it is beyond me that kind of concern on how other players play their character roles, for me doesn't make any sense.

However agree with you that is important to talk about it at a level it does not upset players or cause them fear mongering to try and continue to enjoy the game, not knowing their irl difficulties for not playing their character roles according your ideal procedures, or someone else ideal aka perfect procedures.

Important is not to discourage recently joined players or casual players to keep enjoying the game just cause a butt-hurt doesn't like the way they play it or lives obsessed with their playing.

---

The issue is a bard that doesn't use aoe in a group pull isn't playing their role. They aren't playing any role. A chocobo companion could fill their slot and it wouldn't make much difference.

When you can be replaced by a companion, you're not worth your place in the party and the only thing you should earn is a kick.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hydralus

But... doublecast

---

I'm assuming you mean Dualcast.

Potency calculation is 490 against a single target vs 200 (each) against multiple targets.

Assuming that the mob you target is within range of all the other mobs, AoE is the winner, which makes the single target rotation suboptimal, but not necessarily less effective.

It greatly depends on which mob you target as well, as I find out every time I use Tri-Disaster/Bane followed by Painflare, only to realize I only caught 3 of the 9 attacking mobs.

"Enemies nearby" does not necessarily mean you will hit all the mobs, although experience over time will get you to the point where you can maximize the number hit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

For example, it's rather standard to expect a level 70 tank player to understand Enmity and how it works. Yet I meet an insane amount of level 70 tank only players that do not understand the basics of enmity and how to hold aggro.

Those same people, if you criticize their actions because they don't understand basic game mechanics at pretty high levels if not max level itself, respond with insults, toxicity, "you don't pay my sub", "i'm new so i'm entitled to wiping raids because im learning", "i play how i want to", "you don't control my account" and so on.

---

Keep in mind that there are a lot of people who join the game because they were recommended to play it by a friend. These said friends can't do a large majority of the game with their friends because getting through 2.0 is a massive slog and even after that they have to play through 3.0 as well to even start "doing stuff" with their friends. A lot of these people just buy a jump potion to begin on lv60 as a DRK or War because it has a sword or a WAR because it looks cool not realizing how tank mechanics work or care to take the time to really learn...It will probably be the same with the Gunbreaker.

Although most people find the dungeons really boring, they do help you get used to your skills and when to use them. Many people skip through this because of the jump potions. There's also been a huge influx of players from other MMOs as well that aren't used to FFXIV being so story driven and just skip through everything to get to the "engdame" and don't take the time to actually learn and enjoy their job.

I've seen some tanks that aren't as good at lower levels as they're just learning but not so much in endgame. And the few that I have seen have taken cristicism well taking advice to heart. (I MT DRK btw.) Those people you either kind of keep letting fail until something finally clicks or just abandon and find another group. It's not worth arguing or the frustration.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

A 'normal' pull is a group of 3 mobs. That's the context of the original discussion, and it was accepted by the poster.

Do not count on DPS to use their AoE effectively if the tank also don't take into account positioning, timing, and DPS job.

As a dragoon, when a tank pulls three packs of mobs who encircle the tank, and every one of those mobs has a circular AoE, using straight-line AoEs while dodging mob AoEs doesn't work well.

As a summoner, if Aetherflow is on cooldown neither Bane nor Painflare is available. Shadow Flare is probably on cooldown as well, that stupid 60s recast isn't meant for speed-running an instance. Can't speak to Akh Morn, since my summoner is only level 69, but I don't really see using that against mobs.

As a Bard, Quick Nock and Rain of Death work well against packs of mobs, but if you don't use Straight shot and [Venemous/Wind] bite first, your songs aren't going to be as effective, and you'll suffer a DPS loss because it's your Bite procs that enhance your crit chance.

Spamming AoEs without thought to the other parts of your rotation is also suboptimal.

---

A "normal" pull is not 3 mobs. 3 Mobs is a small pull.

Really? You dot mobs first as a BRD? Again thanks for educating me but i know that too. The point is, and yes i WILL name the number of mobs extra for you now, if a tank pulls 6+ mobs, that are not impossible to hit properly with an AOE, and the dps still uses single target skills he/she is subpar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kalise

With the failure to actually provide any teaching, they just continued down the path of idiot-proofing the game which happens when you leave players to have to research literally everything about the game and thus have to start balancing around people that have literally no clue.

---

Correct, now you see what the thread and the meaning of standards is getting at. Because people believe they shouldn't have to the least bit of research outside of the game, don't read the tooltip, don't ask for help, (the list goes on) standards fall drastically and with it competence. And it's even more a shame that WoW raiders rely on a 3rd party program to tell them what to do every step of the way and if I remember the raiding scene everyone had that program.

When it comes to learning ...
Each classes' combo system' are written in the tooltips. Buttons that glow commonly signal a combo. The beginner courses teach you not to stand in the bad. Teaches you to protect the healer, and on. The game does provide these basic things. What you seem to suggest is a nuanced system that can pull everyone 'up to competent speed'. No single system can pull everyone up to intermediate level because people learn differently and at different rates. This is where the utilization of resources in and/or outside of the game come in (tooltips, guides, videos, discords, community). Again, this is simply the reality.

Quote:

---

Also "This is what dungeons are for. Trials. HoH. PotD. Practice dummies."
None of those actually give any relevant feedback on performance.

---

Stone, Sky, Sea and the likes indeed give feedback on performance. It tells you whether you have the performance to defeat a boss.

Practice dummies allow you to practice a rotation, the feedback being that you can take your time to practice over and over again until it sticks.

HoH and PotD allow you to 'level' and experiment with those new abilities/incorporate. Or simply allow a player to become comfortable with a class in a low pressure environment.

Trials and dungeons allow you to go in, play with the community (which can give feedback), and exist to help you practice in a live environment your abilities.

There is feedback, its just different types of feedback.

Quote:

---

None of these things, ask for competence, give any feedback on competence or even guide you towards competence.

---

This is subjective to the player and their reasons for being there.

Quote:

---

People who will naturally want to improve can use them as places to practice, but they won't in of themselves actually help improve anyone.

---

Again, this is subjective to the player and their reason for being there.

On this note we'll have to agree to disagree on whether a player shouldn't/should have to research to better themselves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AnnaRosa

If you get so easily upset on how other players conduct their roles is it enjoyable for you the game?

Is it ok to live that level of exaggerated concern on how other players decide to play their character roles/jobs?

And as a Bard will always aoe big pulls so not sure where this even come from.

---

I had bards that told me they don't aoe because their aoe is worse than SMNs, i had Mnks not aoe for big bulls, i had a lot of things, even if i asked if they could aoe, they don't. It's not the worst thing but why do you not if there's 10 mobs on screen? There's enough people not aoeing. You may aoe, i may aoe, i get more commends on brd than any other class for some reason. You must be really lucky to not ever encounter those 1o1 classes that do not find their aoe buttons, but it's a thing?

Also, are you telling me it is okay for a MCH to do less damage than both of the healers(the tank was even worse) in orbonne since they were busy jumping aorund and looking at other stuff? While the other 3 of our dps all did 3k+ more damage than him? Happened today even! A few hours ago! He died often because he was busy jumping into an aoe, so me, the whm said "less jumpy, more attacky" where did that go? In him dying again and again.

I literally said what i do not expect from people. The only thing i want from them is TO PLAY THE GAME? Why would you argue with me if that's the only thing i expect from ANYBODY?
Play the game and pay a little attention? What monster must I be to expect that.

Do you think it's fun to carry people that REFUSE to learn after 4+ wipes that they JUST have to pay a LITTLE attention to mechanics? Even if you call the mechanics out? Even if people mark themself to lead them?
I am the last person that leaves, i'll try my best to help but what do you think will happen if all that turns into "omg you're all such toxic raiders" while these toxic raiders helped with all mechanics, died the least(only to enrages), healed everybody, broke their backs trying to keep other alliances alive.
I only do extremes in PF and 24mans, what? The only thing i do is pay attention and trying my best not to die on everything.
I had one really frustrating Midgardsomr run where 2!!!!!!!! healer lb3 were used and at the end, still everybody but me(tank) friend (tank) and a healer (sch) was alive and the SCH WENT through AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALL the mechanics first and went really in depth with them and only 2ish people were new to it.

Don't understand what that has to do with "oh you can't critic how somebody plays their class!!!!!!!!!!!" while every class can aoe and every class can... not die? Is paying attention to the game you chose to play such a crime that you're trying to talk down to me while i say "i don't care how well you do if you're trying".

YOu don't even KNOW how proud i am when i try to help newish and really nervous whms what they can do, how they can do it and that they can chill a little and they actually take it to heart, use that 1 holy i told them they CAN do since it helps THEM a lot and then you notice that they notice it's a good thing and use it more and more and get way more comfortable over the dungeon? Or Teaching newer bards things? I see them try and i'm the proudest mom of ALL TIME.


Don't talk down to me when i have little standard.

Yeah I get there is a minimum expected standard at high levels assuming players know the basics of their job. The problem comes when people expect too much from somebody who is just playing the game casually.

I know a lot of players on this forum play this game pretty hardcore (I mean it's an official forum and most of us have hundreds if not thousands of posts).

But the thing is a majority of the playbase are casual players who might play the game for 2-4 hours a week. They are the ones that make this game so successful with the high numbers. It's always a battle I imagine Square Enix plays. Appeasing the very vocal few hardcore players while keeping the majority playerbase happy.

Basically I don't expect much of the casual userbase and you really shouldn't expect much. Not everyone takes this game seriously and that is perfectly fine.

Hi. I'm a bit behind in this thread so I will try to provide my opinions on this as succinctly as possible.

The smith tutorials: I love the Smith. Less for how much it improves my gameplay (which it probably does) but more for the level 15 gear it provides that render nearly everything under halatali obsolete, it is a total recolour of the first dungeon set. the issue with the optional Smith quests is, it teaches suggests an optimum way to play that may not entirely match the way most players play the first instances. Take Sastasha(?) In two of 3 runs only one said "Can you please do the mechanics." (TBH my response was something along the lines of there's mechanics here?) The other run said focus the boss, the third didn't say anything and I assumed I should focus the boss. I had a similar problem in Halatali, where I wasn't always sure if we were following a mechanics strategy or a brute force strategy. There are instances of mechanics mattering in most of early dungeons (needing bombs to kill the slime, don't stand in the electrocuted water, kill the linked puks) but there are others where mechanics were seen as optional (focus final boss in Copperbell, focus final boss in Sastasha) I'm assuming that if you don't kill the noxious pods in totorak you will drown in diremites, but I only go for them because the first run I did in there, everyone was blowing up the pods on principle.

WoW: My beef with wow goes back far beyond MoP and Trials, Which if you do not pass silver, there are/were certain instances you cannot enter. I think it used to be if you didn't pass Gold. My problem wasn't so much with the difficulty of the trials itself but certain classes had a much better time of it than others, or that you had to spec a particular way, just to scrape by (sorry that's my 'entitlement' showing a fin there. I hate to the back teeth the appearance of the shaman ascension ability, and no amount of power will ever convince me that a bad dragon costume is thematic. Could I please ascend into an elemental, instead of the weird cthulu-dragon thingy?) *ahem* my problem with WoW extends to the next item on my hate list.

ilevel/overgearing: THIS is the problem that has plagued wow. It has never been new, and has been there since at least TBC "buying a powerlevel" through deadmines for example. Then legacy came along and every single person on an account could be best in slot equipped for the content they are running Since legacy, the chances to learn tanking or healing 'on the job' have become remote because 'that one person' will have the legacy gear that will make every fight trivial. And they have been playing catch up to this ever since, especially as more and more people could afford the stuff, and are veterans 'running for the lulz' or simply helping a friend. It is also present in ff14. I am fine with ilevel requirements if players choose to use them inclusively instead of exclusively, and my experience in wow recently shows they tend to do the latter.

I have had two instances recently, both Totorak which is not the hardest mechanics wise (in other words there is no mechanic I am aware of that will kill you if you screw up) but I could have walked behind the party and not pressed a button and the fights would have ended just as fast (PGL and LNC; was running the instance to get to 30) in one instance I was the only non advanced job, and the other there was only one other. I will freely admit that I was out of practice with the PGL positionings, but as far as I know the level syncing doesn't force stat changes due to equipment (I stand to be corrected) and mobs were literally dying before I could press my third button. In that kind of situation, you can't learn in optimal conditions, with other similarly geared players, who are also learning (I discovered during a copperbell run that a synced down DRK is still fragile if they take their armour off, they chose to run naked to make it more challenging). The likelihood of this reduces with every expansion as more and more veterans, with the best intentions, help out their friends. So I have to admit that through no particular wish to be carried, and simply following current game capabilities, I have been handed the first four dungeon completions free, with no real threat and only absolute stupidity on my part has caused my deaths.

I worry about my performance and I'm not the best player, but all I can do when things die that fast, is try, but I don't feel I'm learning. I hate to use WoW again but is the only other mmo of which I have significant experience; before Legacy and without a carry, the original deadmines was a brutal test on how well you knew your job. You wiped you tried again (and again, and again)with no stacking buff. This was how you learned, some players were better, others had more (or less) patience, but when you came out of it, when you finally got that completion you had gained that working understanding (not basic) of your class.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gula

I have seen another player (in his 30's or so) quit claiming "I'm older, work and don't have time to learn X Y and Z and dont have some reflexes like young gamers ect. ect." My response was showing him footage of my mom (in her 50's mind you) playing games she got the grasp of in like an hour. Cue rage and indignation without acknowledgement of the games design at all.

As I said before, every community has its stinkers.

---

Hi Gula!

Yeah, a lot of players fall into the self-defeating attitude that they are too old to learn how to play. It's borne out of insecurity.

The attitude also smears us players who have legitimate reasons for our struggle to learn the game. In my case, it's a combination of severe fibromyalgia and the medicine I need to treat it.

Turns my brain into a fog machine. Hahaha! ;)

But, I still try to learn and respectfully listen to advice. There is no excuse for not attempting to learn how to play your class.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

I'm assuming you mean Dualcast.

Potency calculation is 490 against a single target vs 200 (each) against multiple targets.

Assuming that the mob you target is within range of all the other mobs, AoE is the winner, which makes the single target rotation suboptimal, but not necessarily less effective.

It greatly depends on which mob you target as well, as I find out every time I use Tri-Disaster/Bane followed by Painflare, only to realize I only caught 3 of the 9 attacking mobs.

"Enemies nearby" does not necessarily mean you will hit all the mobs, although experience over time will get you to the point where you can maximize the number hit.

---

Against three enemies you scatter+verstone/thunder unless enhanced scatter is up. 100 per target at 3 targets is greater than jolt 2 could ever be, but less mana generated (mana roughly equates to 9.8 potency per point) and less potency than aero/thunder. At 4+ targets all bets are off, start scatter spam.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alestrae

There are instances of mechanics mattering in most of early dungeons but there are others where mechanics were seen as optional

---

This is mostly down to the way that level sync works and has become very lenient and gives sync'd players incredible amounts of power for their level so that many bosses can just be burned down before they even get a chance to do mechanics.

Usually, the exceptions are the ones that force it such as needing to bomb the slime because it takes so little damage otherwise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alestrae

I'm assuming that if you don't kill the noxious pods in totorak you will drown in diremites, but I only go for them because the first run I did in there, everyone was blowing up the pods on principle.

---

Actually, the only thing that not blowing up the pods does is apply a Poison debuff on players that walk next to it (Basically, as soon as someone gets close enough, it blows itself up and puts poison in an AoE, just like if people attack it but are standing too close anyway)

It's a very minor thing, especially with the poison not being particularly strong but it's simple enough to do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alestrae

Which if you do not pass silver, there are/were certain instances you cannot enter. I think it used to be if you didn't pass Gold.

---

Gold was never required. It only ever needed Silver.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alestrae

My problem wasn't so much with the difficulty of the trials itself but certain classes had a much better time of it than others, or that you had to spec a particular way, just to scrape by

---

I and most of my guildmates had no issues completing golds on any specs though.

It was all a matter of learning how to use your kit.

Like, I had one guild member complain endlessly about how it was impossible to do Silver as a particular Warlock spec (I think it was Destruction) but at the same time, another of my guild members went and did it on his character in the same spec and had no issues and went on and beat Gold too (I think I remember him saying you just put down Volcano or something and Silver auto-completes itself because that single CD kills most of the waves of enemies alone...)

In fact, I managed to do the Silver DPS ones as all the Tanks and Healers (Also, I managed to do the Healer and Tank ones as a DPS and also did the Tank one as healers). You just had to figure out how to maximize your damage output, it wasn't like the Gold ones where you had to burst damage during certain windows and had to know the best time to use your CD's and pick up the Bloodlust box... (I also did Gold DPS as a Tank too... Didn't manage it as Healer, not enough DPS cooldowns in their kits)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alestrae

(sorry that's my 'entitlement' showing a fin there. I hate to the back teeth the appearance of the shaman ascension ability, and no amount of power will ever convince me that a bad dragon costume is thematic. Could I please ascend into an elemental, instead of the weird cthulu-dragon thingy?)

---

Elemental Ascendents are thematic and they are Elementals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alestrae

Then legacy came along and every single person on an account could be best in slot equipped for the content they are running Since legacy, the chances to learn tanking or healing 'on the job' have become remote because 'that one person' will have the legacy gear that will make every fight trivial.

---

I assume you mean Heirlooms?

If so, Heirlooms didn't cause this to happen, they exacerbated it sure, but they didn't cause it.

What caused it was the stat inflation over time. Especially when Cataclysm released and they redid all level 1-60 loot and basically upped the stats by a factor of 5-10x

Since, they became focused on making leveling as easy and straightforward as possible, with exp requirements reduced every expansion for all previous levels, increased exp rewards from quests and exp bonuses from LFD runs.

They didn't want people to face a challenge, because they wanted everyone to get to end-game so they could (In theory) spend all their time designing end-game content and having actually challenging content before then was not conducive to that.

This later went into pushing their wellfare gear earned through Valor points/seals/marks, remaking a lot of old dungeons to be streamlined for quick and easy LFD runs (Including separating older labyrinthine dungeons like Gnomeregan, Maraudon, Blackrock Spire, Blackrock Depths, Stratholme etc. Into multiple "Parts" that you hop into to kill like 1-2 bosses and then leave)

Heirlooms just made things worse for new players, though they got free carries through dungeons (Which is not too dissimilar to back in the day, when people would just ask for boosts through dungeons from max level characters).

Heirlooms killed low level PvP though, since "Twinking" was no longer relevant because the difference between someone who'd gone through the effort of farming/buying all the best level 19/29/39 gear for the character (Also, doing things like getting that rum from the level 40ish area as well as getting the Trinket from the open PvP arena in STV (Which would require having max level friends to act as bodyguards to let you get it)) and someone who just had a bunch of heirlooms equipped was not particularly large.

Thus, it made "Twinks" basically easy to make and thus anyone who wasn't kitted out in heirlooms was no longer able to participate in PvP lest they get 1-2 shot (Whereas before, you might have like 1-2 twinks in a match every so often and they'd often be fighting each other. Meaning normal players could still fight each other and have a good time)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alestrae

as far as I know the level syncing doesn't force stat changes due to equipment (I stand to be corrected) and mobs were literally dying before I could press my third button.

---

Level syncing does tune your gear down to a more appropriate item level.

Though, again, this is done fairly leniently and thus will still create significant power level differences between players. Especially at lower levels (For example a sync'd Healer in Sastasha can literally out damage both DPS classes that are actually appropriate level)

It gets better as levels increase, but it still remains that sync'd players are significantly more powerful than non-sync'd. Outside of some specific duties that have a much lower item level they sync to which are far more even between players since its much closer to what at level players will actually have (Provided they've been keeping on top of their gear)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alestrae

I worry about my performance and I'm not the best player, but all I can do when things die that fast, is try, but I don't feel I'm learning.

---

Yeah, this continues to be a problem until you reach current content. Before then, you will encounter plenty of sync'd players that will destroy content before you can do much.

Even PotD/HoH doesn't help because outside of bosses, nothing lasts long enough to do anything (I recall leveling my BLM a bit in PotD and I couldn't even get a single cast off to start my rotation if anyone else was around. Same with my DRG in HoH where it was impossible for me to keep my Blood of the Dragon buff up because I couldn't advance more than 2 steps into my 5 step combo to refresh it...)

It's part of what I mentioned earlier in that duties really don't do anything to actually help players at all, even if they want to learn, all it promotes is toss out quick AoE's to nuke down packs before sync'd players evaporate them... Or you get into a party where no-one is sync'd and then it feels like torture because no-one knows how to play their class and it takes like 5x as long to complete the dungeon...

P.s. You can bypass the character limit on posts by editing a post and typing in more stuff (Or, type out your full post, cut most of it then edit and paste it back in)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ilan

A "normal" pull is not 3 mobs. 3 Mobs is a small pull.

Really? You dot mobs first as a BRD? Again thanks for educating me but i know that too. The point is, and yes i WILL name the number of mobs extra for you now, if a tank pulls 6+ mobs, that are not impossible to hit properly with an AOE, and the dps still uses single target skills he/she is subpar.

---

A normal pull is the number of mobs that are clumped up(usually 3). Tanks running and grabbing multiple sets are large pulls which is the norm due to gear levels.

I do not think a certain level of expectation is bad honestly. What I think is bad is when people expect others to play perfectly all the time. No mistake always 100% optimized remember every aspect of every fight ever created. And yes those people exist and they tend to be loud with their displeasure imo. It’s not uncommon for hardcore players to expect that level of play from people who have no interest it. I’ve seen many players berated because of it. When while they were not optimal they actually capable of meeting the contents requirement. However, instead of 15 min run it took us 20 to 25 mins. Then they go off about learn your class, just quit the game etc. I can understand why some have become super defensive as this attitude is present in most games i’ve Played.

Players have to keep in mind too sometimes players are just toxic regardless of skill level. Just blacklist and move on.report if the toxicity warrants it. Sometimes players are just bad. They try but will always be on the bad side. It is what is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

I'm assuming you mean Dualcast.

Potency calculation is 490 against a single target vs 200 (each) against multiple targets.

Assuming that the mob you target is within range of all the other mobs, AoE is the winner, which makes the single target rotation suboptimal, but not necessarily less effective.

---

Any tank worth their salt will group the monsters together for AoE, especially since you can't parry back attacks. And you were still comparing 490 potency (assuming low-level content) to 300 potency for some odd reason when it's 600 potency and now we're talking about something entirely different. It's not only suboptimal but it's not some unreasonable expectation. It's 1 button for heaven's sakes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alestrae

WoW: My beef with wow goes back far beyond MoP and Trials, Which if you do not pass silver, there are/were certain instances you cannot enter. I think it used to be if you didn't pass Gold. My problem wasn't so much with the difficulty of the trials itself but certain classes had a much better time of it than others, or that you had to spec a particular way, just to scrape by (sorry that's my 'entitlement' showing a fin there. I hate to the back teeth the appearance of the shaman ascension ability, and no amount of power will ever convince me that a bad dragon costume is thematic. Could I please ascend into an elemental, instead of the weird cthulu-dragon thingy?) *ahem* my problem with WoW extends to the next item on my hate list.

---

I remember the proving grounds it was easy but WoW has hidden how bad ppl really are that ppl can't handle stuff when it shows how bad they truly are at the game. Ppl cried more over mage tower in legion which i did 20 ilvl under the recommended.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

Having standards for players seems to a crime among this community

Why is it such a crime to have actual STANDARDS in this game?

---

This attitude is absolutely not unique to this game at all. I have seen this stuff in literally every multi-player game I played. There are always players who push back against having to meet a standard. This is just how some people are. People can be lazy or selfish in all aspects of life. Stop phrasing it as if it only happens in FFXIV.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

In FF14, if you are a bad player, you cannot be criticized because the other person can report you for harassment and you'll probably get a warning under the new rules they implemented, and if you don't help them you get called a toxic elitist anyway.

---

There is a lot to be said for the method you use to point out someone's poor performance. There is a massive difference between "stop being such a ****ing noob and stack with us" and "please stop running away and stack with us when you have the red marker". Politely targeting what a person is doing wrong won't get you into trouble.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crystal_Raven

Another example is with the AoE mechanics aka the orange markers. I encounter many people that stand in them at levels 50+ because they don't realize that orange marker = bad.

It's completely mind boggling that this is considered acceptable by a large part of the community.

---

I'm not sure where you get this impression. Every time I have seen someone so bad that they stand in the orange all the time someone comments about it, and/or they get kicked. If it happens only once or twice in an entire dungeon most people stay silent because it's frankly not a big deal. No point in starting drama over something so minor. Everyone messes up sometimes.

well when it comes to tanking i understand emity fine for dungeons but when it comes to content with 2 or more tanks i no longer understand it so i just don't think them even though i want to because how uptight most ppl are with standards cant even relearn tank as a 2nd role for raids,ally raids and trails.

Even when you say first time tanking here you get attacked over 1 mess up and told go watch a video... Ppl shouldn't have to learn your way some of us learn through trail and error.


As for AOEs aka red spots ... well two things if the aoe does only half of what i can heal no point dodging it when regen,barrier will just recover or eat it anyways lol Lets be honest half the aoes aren't a issue if the healer has good healing numbers for the fight

example aoe hits 6k well i can heal 12k on avarage and my barrier will eat most of the 6k so y dodge it and waste cast time i had built up lol

but normally i just take the hit when talking to fc, or linkshell because the sane old fight boors me lol
But really half the time ppl hit by aoe is because either not worth dodging or talking in chat, or just ditzy zoning out lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

well when it comes to tanking i understand emity fine for dungeons but when it comes to content with 2 or more tanks i no longer understand it so i just don't think them even though i want to because how uptight most ppl are with standards cant even relearn tank as a 2nd role for raids,ally raids and trails.

---

Tanking is tanking, the type of content does very little to change how you'd play. FFXIV rarely has tank-swaps, but knowing how to use Shirk makes transitions easy. Otherwise, the off-tank is just a glorified DPS who might have to pick up adds.

Quote:

---

Even when you say first time tanking here you get attacked over 1 mess up and told go watch a video... Ppl shouldn't have to learn your way some of us learn through trail and error.

---

The problem comes when that "trial and error" is causing the rest of the group grief. Especially when it's something you should know better on. Like a lvl70 tank shouldn't need to be told not to face a boss towards the raid (and everyone else should know better than to ever be in front of a boss anyway), but I had a tank in Orbonne yesterday kill 90% of the raid on Agrias because he didn't face her away for Thunder Slash.

Quote:

---

As for AOEs aka red spots ... well two things if the aoe does only half of what i can heal no point dodging it when regen,barrier will just recover or eat it anyways lol Lets be honest half the aoes aren't a issue if the healer has good healing numbers for the fight

example aoe hits 6k well i can heal 12k on avarage and my barrier will eat most of the 6k so y dodge it and waste cast time i had built up lol

but normally i just take the hit when talking to fc, or linkshell because the sane old fight boors me lol
But really half the time ppl hit by aoe is because either not worth dodging or talking in chat, or just ditzy zoning out lol

---

I just... I'm almost at a loss for words.

Intentionally eating easily avoidable damage just because it can be healed through puts you square into the camp of people that this thread is talking about. The least that would happen is you're forcing your healers to waste MP on you instead of using it to contribute DPS or do something else more productive.

The worst that happens is you flat out die (because how will you know if the AoE is trivial or not without eating it at least once? Sometimes you're going to lose that gamble) or you incur a debuff that will likely get you killed later. Using Mustadio in Orbonne for example, his Handgun attacks won't usually outright kill you if you're topped off, but they will give you vulnerability stacks. Even a single stack will make it impossible to survive his Last Testament sniper attack--all because you couldn't be bothered to move out of the way of what you think is a trivial AoE. Now the healers have to waste time, mana, and cooldowns on picking you back up.

If the entire group played like that you would never clear anything, so keep that in mind the next time you think it's appropriate to sandbag it and make your group pick up the slack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

Tanking is tanking, the type of content does very little to change how you'd play. FFXIV rarely has tank-swaps, but knowing how to use Shirk makes transitions easy. Otherwise, the off-tank is just a glorified DPS who might have to pick up adds.



The problem comes when that "trial and error" is causing the rest of the group grief. Especially when it's something you should know better on. Like a lvl70 tank shouldn't need to be told not to face a boss towards the raid (and everyone else should know better than to ever be in front of a boss anyway), but I had a tank in Orbonne yesterday kill 90% of the raid on Agrias because he didn't face her away for Thunder Slash.



I just... I'm almost at a loss for words.

Intentionally eating easily avoidable damage just because it can be healed through puts you square into the camp of people that this thread is talking about. The least that would happen is you're forcing your healers to waste MP on you instead of using it to contribute DPS or do something else more productive.

The worst that happens is you flat out die (because how will you know if the AoE is trivial or not without eating it at least once? Sometimes you're going to lose that gamble) or you incur a debuff that will likely get you killed later. Using Mustadio in Orbonne for example, his Handgun attacks won't usually outright kill you if you're topped off, but they will give you vulnerability stacks. Even a single stack will make it impossible to survive his Last Testament sniper attack--all because you couldn't be bothered to move out of the way of what you think is a trivial AoE. Now the healers have to waste time, mana, and cooldowns on picking you back up.

If the entire group played like that you would never clear anything, so keep that in mind the next time you think it's appropriate to sandbag it and make your group pick up the slack.

---

lol i am normally the healer and barrier takes all but maybe 2k-3k dmg which is nothing if you got good mp control lol.

also big difference in holding emity from boss and 2 tanks having to hold differnt things when most partys don't talk lol to say what they are getting.
in fact as a healer in fine with ppl standing in aoes so long as its not one that gives auto death if the healer cant controll mp well of course dont do it but a true healer knows their limit and as a barrier user i have little 2 no limit lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

If the entire group played like that you would never clear anything, so keep that in mind the next time you think it's appropriate to sandbag it and make your group pick up the slack.

---

Unfortunately this is the kind of player you encounter who's just gonna keep playing like they do. They're not a huge detriment, but they're making it harder. But it's not wiping levels of bad.. just.. frustrating. All you can do with them is try to help, like you have, and then when they reply.. , like they did, with "we didn't wipe it's fine!" .. make your case and move on. It's annoying for sure, but hardly gamebreaking or as prevalent as the OP seems to imply

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

a true healer knows their limit and as a barrier user i have little 2 no limit lol

---

Do you see the irony in the fact you expect a healer to know their limits and what they can handle.. but you won't bother to know the encounter beforehand? Or the fact you are sacrificing resources to heal to save.. what? DPS?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krotoan

Unfortunately this is the kind of player you encounter who's just gonna keep playing like they do. They're not a huge detriment, but they're making it harder. But it's not wiping levels of bad.. just.. frustrating. All you can do with them is try to help, like you have, and then when they reply.. , like they did, with "we didn't wipe it's fine!" .. make your case and move on. It's annoying for sure, but hardly gamebreaking or as prevalent as the OP seems to imply



Do you see the irony in the fact you expect a healer to know their limits and what they can handle.. but you won't bother to know the encounter beforehand? Or the fact you are sacrificing resources to heal to save.. what? DPS?

---

with your mp amount if your going below 3k mp at any time no matter what your team is doing unless its scapes or a alliance raid you shouldn't be playing a healer period lol.

ive walked into fights without looking up i do dmg,heal and never has my mp hit below 5k and 5k is rare moments lol... learning mp controll and how 2 absorb a aoe has nothing 2 do with a fight lol thats simple

it literally hardly phases my mp pull lol most ppl get full health with 1 weak heal cure,benefict 1 ,phystick lol. the tank might take 2-3 times but dps 1 heal is enough for full hp even if they hit 1k hp some how lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

Even a single stack will make it impossible to survive his Last Testament sniper attack--all because you couldn't be bothered to move out of the way of what you think is a trivial AoE. Now the healers have to waste time, mana, and cooldowns on picking you back up.

---

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say they're likely not one to push for healer DPS and are the type to stand around waiting to heal people so in their mind there's really no 'loss' as far as they're concerned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

with your mp amount if your going below 3k mp at any time no matter what your team is doing unless its scapes or a alliance raid you shouldn't be playing a healer period lol.

---

Moving out of AOE's is Tank 101. The less damage you take, the less your healers have to pick up slack (even if YOU know you're gonna heal the damage, they don't, especially PUGs), the less they're picking up slack the easier it is to recover if something goes south. You are tanking lazily if you take damage "because it won't kill me". If you take damage it should be unavoidable.

However, if that's how you want to play then I won't say you can't. Just thought I'd point out expecting others to be optimal while you're substandard is part of what bothers the OP. .... "LOL".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Penthea

This attitude is absolutely not unique to this game at all. I have seen this stuff in literally every multi-player game I played. There are always players who push back against having to meet a standard. This is just how some people are. People can be lazy or selfish in all aspects of life. Stop phrasing it as if it only happens in FFXIV.

---

While true, I've never seen a community actively embrace it like the FFXIV community has. While content difficulty might be a big contributing factor to it, I feel that it is actually amplified to extreme levels by the fact that gearing differences between players are actually rather small due to how equipment is designed in this game. While in other games, gear differences between two equally skilled players of the same level in the same content might result in one player having like 2-3x the damage output of the other player, the gap in DPS numbers in FFXIV between two equally skilled players that are about 30-40 item levels apart is maybe only about a difference of 20% DPS at the most.

So since players can't exactly hide behind lack of gear as a convenient excuse for under-performing for all but the most extreme cases (like people wearing level 50 gear in level 60 content), it is incredibly easy for most people to tell if someone is really under-performing on a skill level basis.

also the Fights are overall rehash from old fights the entire sb only has 2 new mechanics we haven't seen before lol so I dont get y ppl think its A "NEW FIGHT" no its not lol its literally rehash a majority of the game lol atleast dungeon wise

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krotoan

Moving out of AOE's is Tank 101. The less damage you take, the less your healers have to pick up slack (even if YOU know you're gonna heal the damage, they don't, especially PUGs), the less they're picking up slack the easier it is to recover if something goes south. You are tanking lazily if you take damage "because it won't kill me". If you take damage it should be unavoidable.

However, if that's how you want to play then I won't say you can't. Just thought I'd point out expecting others to be optimal while you're substandard is part of what bothers the OP. .... "LOL".

---

as a tank i only dodge because i don't trust the healer lol

But when I'm the healer it really doesn't matter 2 me i can handle them standing in 50 aoes non stop and still have 4k+mp to deal dmg with lol