Few close friends quit FFXIV, one wants to explain why, hopes SE improves the game

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ko_

Getting emotional and mad cause I don't agree with you isn't winning you any points. Again what reason do they have to change the core randomly other than you and a small group of your friends are bored? :/ Go on.. I'll wait.

---

I am a bit mad you can't respect us, sure, do not put words in our mouths. What was the point of this post? What you are "waiting" for has been stated over and over again, so there is no need to do that fuhrer. It is not our fault (and quite shocking you tried to suggest otherwise) that SB is a direct copy and paste of HW. Several posts explained this, you said nothing on the subject about Yoshi-P stating the problem with it, and many other points you did not address.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dragonpunch

Anytime SE tries to innovate new things we get stuck with stuff like Lords of Vermillion, Diadem and Euruka. We all know how the community feels about them. Until they figure out how to design new content that the community likes, were going to be doing the same content with a new coat of paint every time.

---

THEY got feedback on all that though, and they do not do anything with it, that is the big issue with that. The biggest one for me is Euruka, the fact they gave another bare bones zone and no level sync in the second one? There is no excuse for the screw up on the second Euruka zone, outside showing how much out of touch they are with the user base.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ko

Pretty much THIS. ALL OF THIS. Been saying it in all the topics that bring this up. Why should SE change or take MORE risk when the risk they DO take fail?

---

then enjoy a dead game.
https://gamerescape.com/2016/11/15/f...-fan-festival/

Quote:

---

Y: It is the second expansion pack, and if we were to do the same thing all over again, a lot of people would get tired of it. Like I said earlier, the base design of FFXIV will not change. It’s a game made for this age, but that’s exactly why even if it were to change in the future to fit the future trends, it won’t return to the past. And even if a past trend were to become a modern trend, it still must include a “modern vibe” to it. It is not negating the past, but rather extracting the interesting elements, and inviting players who like them. That’s the product we are a
iming for.

---

Thats why, even Yoshi-p knows it is a problem, and yet does nothing to solve it

Do you know what innovation gave us? do you know a game company that keeps trying to innovate despite falling flat at times? Nintendo, and it really paid off with the wii, it fell short with the virtual boy and such. You act like staying the same is the best thing to do because you fail a few times, you cannot be more wrong. The wii would never been made with your mindset.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hamada

then enjoy a dead game.

---

Game doesn't look very dead to me.

EDIT: Also, I think it's a bit ridiculous to compare a piece of hardware to an MMO. Just my opinion though.

EDIT due to post limit:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raskbuck

I think the point is to do something before that happens, honey. Compared to when the game first launched, I've seen a steady decrease in player population. Plus, as an anecdote, most of my friends have quit playing as well, and they too had similar complaints about the game. Hiding your head under the ground and pretending everything is alright is not going to do anyone any favors.

---

All your evidence is purely anecdotal. If you want actual evidence of dead games, look at 1.0 or for a more recent example, Wildstar. FF14 is nowhere even close to the situation Wildstar went through. Also, cut out the condescending attitude, it's a bad look.

Further Edit: And another condescending response instead of actually responding to any evidence. Good talk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ko_

Pretty much THIS. ALL OF THIS. Been saying it in all the topics that bring this up. Why should SE change or take MORE risk when the risk they DO take fail?

---

Eureka isn't a risk though it's literally Diadem 3.0 they took the base which was Diadem, threw a bunch of spongey monsters to soak up all the damage and auto attacks with X move away from the enemy move, and spawn the occasional NM mob, then called it a day.

I don't see how they took a *risk* when it didn't work before a real risk is something to change up the formula and change the game in a dynamic way this wasn't dynamic it was just a poor attempt at open world content when it's just FATEs and mob spanking for hours with very little reward.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ko_

Pretty much THIS. ALL OF THIS. Been saying it in all the topics that bring this up. Why should SE change or take MORE risk when the risk they DO take fail?

---

Have we forgotten how big of a risk FFXIV:ARR was for Square as a whole? Revamping an entire MMO isn't exactly the safest path to ever take in any business sense so why are we so against the company trying new things to further carve out XIV's name in MMO history? From your post history so far it seems you have the notion associated with the famous quote "Everything that can be invented has been invented." To think that everything we have is fine because it works is folly and will eventually be overshadowed by those who aren't content to just leave things be. FFXIV should be pushing itself to further expand on its content and not just reskin them. Whatever Ultimate got in terms of Design Philosophy is what we need, building upon systems to make whats old feel fresh again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zephera

Game doesn't look very dead to me.

---

I think the point is to do something before that happens, honey. Compared to when the game first launched, I've seen a steady decrease in player population. Plus, as an anecdote, most of my friends have quit playing as well, and they too had similar complaints about the game. Hiding your head under the ground and pretending everything is alright is not going to do anyone any favors.

My main issue is too many skills to bind. Reduce the button bloat to 25 buttons per job or so and I'll be very happy. no reason to have 30+ buttons to push per job. You run out of good keybinds very fast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krokov

What pray tell do you think I meant when I was saying the same stuff? Obviously it's not the same as they have changed many aspects of the game in 16 years but the core of many functions of the game are the same, though those functions have many options now, (for the most), thus giving players variety to complete them.

---

It was never the same even in it prime years. Content was nearly always new, inviting, and above all, had replay value and far more rewarding. Something XIV lacks in big time.
We're not even talking about the core functions, we're talking about fresh new content that is much needed in this game. Content that much like XI, has that replay value. Fun and rewarding. I played XI since it release and even now I go back from time to time during free login events to check out all the new content added. As their adding new content, it exciting, it fun it got that replay value. Only down side is that there isn't that much of a player base left and most are all on one server now.

Now ask yourself why a 16 year game can do this but xiv can't. Oh wait, we all know why by Yoshi-P own words, "Not enough resource." And therefore every part of this game is the same dull, boring, play it for a month, dead content. Any content they try and make that has replay value, they fail at hard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noodle_Trinidad

Have we forgotten how big of a risk FFXIV:ARR was for Square as a whole? Revamping an entire MMO isn't exactly the safest path to ever take in any business sense so why are we so against the company trying new things to further carve out XIV's name in MMO history? From your post history so far it seems you have the notion associated with the famous quote "Everything that can be invented has been invented." To think that everything we have is fine because it works is folly and will eventually be overshadowed by those who aren't content to just leave things be. FFXIV should be pushing itself to further expand on its content and not just reskin them. Whatever Ultimate got in terms of Design Philosophy is what we need, building upon systems to make whats old feel fresh again.

---

SE made that risk for ARR because the game was literally dying. That wasn't something they choose to do cause some parts of the playerbase was bored. THAT is the difference. And because of that the side effect is it WORKS. You really think they want to risk it not working cause of another risk? Hell no. SE is staying on the safe side BECAUSE of 1.0. Now if that's good or bad that's up for debate, but I can tell you this. Changing for the sake of change is NOT why they did it back then and they are not going to do it now. There needs to be a reason or better system then " I'm bored."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zephera

All your evidence is purely anecdotal.

---

...yes my anecdote is anecdotal. That's very observant of you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cylla

It was never the same even in it prime years. Content was nearly always new, inviting, and above all, had replay value and far more rewarding. Something XIV lacks in big time.
We're not even talking about the core functions, we're talking about fresh new content that is much needed in this game. Content that much like XI, has that replay value. Fun and rewarding. I played XI since it release and even now I go back from time to time during free login events to check out all the new content added. As their adding new content, it exciting, it fun it got that replay value. Only down side is that there isn't that much of a player base left and most are all on one server now.

Now ask yourself why a 16 year game can do this but xiv can't. Oh wait, we all know why by Yoshi-P own words, "Not enough resource." And therefore ever part of this game is the same dull, boring, play it for a month, dead content. Any content they try and make that has replay value, they fail at hard.

---

While for replay value any game can become boring and if the person feels it's not worth their time to play the game again for whatever reason then they don't and so there's no replay value which seems to be with which he said the basis of this thread there's nothing news of his no replay value. I myself have the different times found myself bored in the game and so I just turn it off but then I keep going back because I like being in the game and I like doing stuff in the game. If I really wanna be bored I can play WoW, world quests over and over again and they're not even as lucrative as they used to be :-(

I think the fast moving gear spiral causes this strict patch formula. All even and odd numbered patches are the same because we expect and need that standard to upgrade our gear. The resources are tight and we don't really want to lose out on our 8 man and 24 man raid and ex trials, and we need some dungeons for tome farming.

When they want to spice up content they need to slow down the gear spiral and go to a more horizontal like gear progression. So they can have patch X.2 and X.3 as usual and then add X.4 with new stuff for example. But then people have to wait longer for a new raid tier and adding more different gear as rewards will not work with our limited substats.

So do you want to wait longer for your raids and / or lose completely out on content?

When you want a new raid tier with higher gear every 6 months, I think the fast moving gear spiral won't go anywhere, with all it's consequences.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ko_

SE is staying on the safe side BECAUSE of 1.0. Now if that's good or bad that's up for debate, but I can tell you this. Changing for the sake of change is NOT why they did it back then and they are not going to do it now. There needs to be a reason or better system then " I'm bored."

---

It's not 1.0 anymore though we're at 4.4 and things have gotten better but as it stands new ideas are starting to be non-existent and content is stagnating because things are too safe we've had the same formula since the end of 2.X. It's the same: raid comes out/4 floors/circular arena/boss growls at % hp to do his ultimate roomwide AoE that has a gauge, rinse and repeat the primals have declined quite a bit since HW and ARR as well does anyone remember when Titan EX was ball bustingly hard? Or Thordan EX? Seph EX flexing on you? Man those were fun and hard same with Nidhogg EX and Sophia having interesting mechanics.

The only hard primal this xpac has been Shinryu and even on normal he's a Godka to the below average player, if you ask me the game has become waaaay too safe even while leveling, mobs hp has been significantly decreased only to steam roll through content. The game has been saved but the Devs and Yoshi P ride this safe roller coaster with no thrills like it's a dead horse on wheels there has been no risk or dynamic change we're still getting tomestones to cap every week, we have the same 4 floors that come out in 4s, same weeklys to do like Crystal Tower/Dun Scaith etc, same crafted gear out every tier, it doesn't and hasn't changed and frankly everyone's pretty tired at this point.

It's why everyone is disappointed with the lack of content we get stuff like LoV, Lost Canals, Chocobo Racing, Eureka, but it's all meaningless content that doesn't change the game at all or take risks they're like rides at a theme park where it's fun after the first ride then you lose the enjoyment the next go around. I love this game to do death I really do but this expansion is no different than HW but the thing is I enjoyed HW more because it was new then you get to SB and everything looks new but it's the same formula it's still safe why don't we have anything new?

The only new thing I can commend SE on this xpac is the Ultimate fights as they were designed with love and care but sadly most of the population won't set foot in there if content was created more like these fights or poured more resources like they do for Ultimate then we'd see more polish but sadly we're left with unfinished messes that are what they are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awful

It's not 1.0 anymore though we're at 4.4 and things have gotten better but as it stands new ideas are starting to be non-existent and content is stagnating because things are too safe we've had the same formula since the end of 2.X. It's the same: raid comes out/4 floors/circular arena/boss growls at % hp to do his ultimate roomwide AoE that has a gauge, rinse and repeat the primals have declined quite a bit since HW and ARR as well does anyone remember when Titan EX was ball bustingly hard? Or Thordan EX? Seph EX flexing on you? Man those were fun and hard same with Nidhogg EX and Sophia having interesting mechanics.

The only hard primal this xpac has been Shinryu and even on normal he's a Godka to the below average player, if you ask me the game has become waaaay too safe even while leveling, mobs hp has been significantly decreased only to steam roll through content. The game has been saved but the Devs and Yoshi P ride this safe roller coaster with no thrills like it's a dead horse on wheels there has been no risk or dynamic change we're still getting tomestones to cap every week, we have the same 4 floors that come out in 4s, same weeklys to do like Crystal Tower/Dun Scaith etc, same crafted gear out every tier, it doesn't and hasn't changed and frankly everyone's pretty tired at this point.

It's why everyone is disappointed with the lack of content we get stuff like LoV, Lost Canals, Chocobo Racing, Eureka, but it's all meaningless content that doesn't change the game at all or take risks they're like rides at a theme park where it's fun after the first ride then you lose the enjoyment the next go around. I love this game to do death I really do but this expansion is no different than HW but the thing is I enjoyed HW more because it was new then you get to SB and everything looks new but it's the same formula it's still safe why don't we have anything new?

The only new thing I can commend SE on this xpac is the Ultimate fights as they were designed with love and care but sadly most of the population won't set foot in there if content was created more like these fights or poured more resources like they do for Ultimate then we'd see more polish but sadly we're left with unfinished messes that are what they are.

---

Is ther really anything wrong with knowing whats coming? Is that REALLY such a bad thing? I rather know what I'm getting hen not know what's coming and having to guess if it's good or not. But that's a personal thing as I hate suprises 100,000% So me knowing whats coming is a good thing and shows me SE has a stable game. I DO want harder dungeons, and more diffcult content but none of that needs the core to be randomly changed. If all you're worried about is being bored cause you know when a dungeon comes out then I feel like that's small. I rather want good dungeons then be shocked cause dungeons skipped a patch note.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Edax

It IS madness. When a company makes an entertainment product solely for profit, and forgets about the entertainment part, you get the situation we have today for many video games and movies. Profit cannot be the sole motivator for all forms of business because that's not how all business fields work. Imagine if cars were sold to you piecemeal and come with microtransactions like they are with video games.

---

Have you ever heard of aftermarket sales? The MSRP on just about any car you search into will be the basic package of the vehicle and have next to no gimmicks that separate it from any other standard package out there.

Profit is exactly how businesses work, otherwise you don't have a business. However, it is not an excuse for poor quality because people want what they pay for at the very least. Delivering less is not how you remain marketable. I agree that it should not be the sole motivator, but if I owned a business, my profit margins are going to be a big point of emphasis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Krokov

While for replay value any game can become boring and if the person feels it's not worth their time to play the game again for whatever reason then they don't and so there's no replay value which seems to be with which he said the basis of this thread there's nothing news of his no replay value. I myself have the different times found myself bored in the game and so I just turn it off but then I keep going back because I like being in the game and I like doing stuff in the game. If I really wanna be bored I can play WoW, world quests over and over again and they're not even as lucrative as they used to be :-(

---

And to each other own opinion when it comes to WoW. I find WoW to be more entertaining at the moment then this. However, as I said earlier in this thread to another poster who commented about how Yoshi said he wanted us to play other games and come back to this one when there is new content, I can't. I'm held hostage by the housing system. It not worth me going to WoW for 30 days then coming back to this one where it still boring. There no use in me keeping an active sub here when housing is not connected to just having an active sub. If I want to take a break from a game, I want to take it for more then just 45 days. In the case of XIV, I'd rather just come back for a major patch update, play it and if there no replay to it/people don't want to touch it (aka pogos) then I take another break. But nope, this game so broken and punishing that having a house almost feels like SE having a gun to your head. You either stay or lose a piece of content you worked for.

To be honest, I really did want to love this game as much as XI. I've tried to since 1.0 and 2.0. I'm finding it harder and harder everyday to even do so. To me, the game broken in nearly ever part. Everything from the casual content to the mid-core (I don't raid anymore so I can't say how the raiding is). It sad when again, a 16 year game is still doing it better. XI still and seem to be the only game that I can say I ever really enjoyed and had everything I wanted as a gamer. No other game, not even WoW could replace that and SE sure isn't trying very hard either with XIV.

I blame Pagos

To chime in, I'm one of the players that doesn't mind the treadmill we're on. When I started my SB crafting, I was able to anticipate which mats I needed to hoard based off my experience in HW, and it most certainly paid off. Koppernickel sand? Yeah, just go ahead and gather x999 of that right now!

I do have some issues with the game, but they are relatively minor QoL adjustments that would hardly impact the game. My biggest desires to change things up is the addition of Beastmaster DoL class to facilitate mat acquisition from enemies while having fun doing it. The other being our first Healer/ranged melee hybrid in DNC.

To be fair though, I know if I was at endgame with all jobs maxed out, waiting for the next patch to drop because I am done with the things I enjoy most, I would likely start feeling burned out as well. Thing is, SE would have to deliver content less frequently for this to happen. Because I am an omnicrafter, gatherer, home decorator, and don't have a goal of having a maxed out character, I just won't ever catch up. But I am ok with that, and a big reason why is I am never bored playing this game. If something starts becoming stale or trite, I simply pick one of many, many other activities I am into and progressing.

I love this game and our community. I do want everyone to be happy and to remain subbed. So I do hope SE can deliver to those who desire change without messing up things for players like myself.

There needs to be a shake up.

Eliminate 8 and 24 man raids and replace it with a 12 man dungeon raid. Ditch the loot penalty for skipping a tier and wanting to help others despite completing. Just lock loot for THAT PERSON ONLY if the finished. Savage only, not normal mode.

Frontline and Expert Roulette should allow same gear item level. Introduce a new type of PVP currency and just weekly cap that like tomes.

Eureka and Diadem... this is tough, since they'll become dated content. Make it to where we can take squadrons and introduce mini trials that award exp every x amount of enemies we kill. Fix NM spawn rates so they can spawn a little faster and drop light quicker. Toss in some hunt marks in there as well as level sync.

No more gating crafters and gatherers behind story, create side stories in new areas so they're not forced to leveling a DoW/M class from 5.0 on out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

Have you ever heard of aftermarket sales? The MSRP on just about any car you search into will be the basic package of the vehicle and have next to no gimmicks that separate it from any other standard package out there.

Profit is exactly how businesses work, otherwise you don't have a business. However, it is not an excuse for poor quality because people want what they pay for at the very least. Delivering less is not how you remain marketable. I agree that it should not be the sole motivator, but if I owned a business, my profit margins are going to be a big point of emphasis.

---

I agree that profit is important. However, many business defeat their own purposes by entirely devoted themselves entirely to profit. Like EA making Battlefront II, fill with so many methods to harvest money from players, that they forgot to make the game enjoyable or entertaining. This defeated the point of making an entertainment product. Or the DCEU, which forgot to make the movies entertaining because each movie felt both like a commercial for a future DCEU movie, and an attempt to ape the markets more popular movies. Or an insurance company that does everything it can to not payout legit claims, which defeats the purpose of even owning insurance in the first place. These businesses are profiting while failing to provide any service or utility to society. Or take that restaurant in China I read about that realized it could increase its profits by utilizing their local graveyard as an untapped resource. Is it "good business" or madness?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zephera

Game doesn't look very dead to me.

EDIT: Also, I think it's a bit ridiculous to compare a piece of hardware to an MMO. Just my opinion though.

---

How did you come up with the conclusion I was comparing a piece of hardware to an MMO? Ko was flat out saying it is bad to innovate if you keep failing, well there is other situations that suggest otherwise, including:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noodle_Trinidad

Have we forgotten how big of a risk FFXIV:ARR was for Square as a whole? Revamping an entire MMO isn't exactly the safest path to ever take in any business sense so why are we so against the company trying new things to further carve out XIV's name in MMO history? From your post history so far it seems you have the notion associated with the famous quote "Everything that can be invented has been invented." To think that everything we have is fine because it works is folly and will eventually be overshadowed by those who aren't content to just leave things be. FFXIV should be pushing itself to further expand on its content and not just reskin them. Whatever Ultimate got in terms of Design Philosophy is what we need, building upon systems to make whats old feel fresh again.

---

Such concepts is not limited to hardware or software but life it self and pretty much everything. I am not sure why you tried to suggest this is not relevant. Everything and anything (hence why animals that do not adapt to changes to environments die off) fade into history. If you want to bet that FFXIV will be the first exception in history to this, well that is a bet I will not make.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raskbuck

I think the point is to do something before that happens, honey. Compared to when the game first launched, I've seen a steady decrease in player population. Plus, as an anecdote, most of my friends have quit playing as well, and they too had similar complaints about the game. Hiding your head under the ground and pretending everything is alright is not going to do anyone any favors.

---

You are correct.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ko_

Changing for the sake of change is NOT why they did it back then and they are not going to do it now. There needs to be a reason or better system then " I'm bored."

---

You are oversimplifying what people are saying to make a light attempt to mock those ideas. I do not like it and I find it insulting. Please respect people and actually respond to what people are saying. If all you are going to do is post your biased views and not actually respond to people why are you even here? You are not going to change people's minds, you clearly wont change yours. How you do not see SB is a COMPLETE COPY of HW is beyond me. SB is HW with a higher ilevel, that is all, there is no "small changes" there is NO CHANGES! that is part of the reason why the game feels overall simpler, because everything in SB, people seen already, and easier to pick up on the small different mechanics here and there. Ever play weeping city of mhach on day 1? What about The Ridorana Lighthouse? Pugs made The Ridorana Lighthouse like a joke compared to "wiping city" (it has this name for a reason) esp when you compare both on their day 1s.

When you try circle this into "Tell me what SE should do then" that has been answered. All the information you want from me and my friend has already been posted but just like SE, just like SE's reaction the first eureka's suggestions hoping they would be in place for the second, level sync is a big one, just get ignored.

Now tell me, since you want to defend these practices, explain to me why SE COMPLETELY ignored the player base for improving eureka to make the second release better? You want to know the prime reason it failed? THAT'S WHY. People are not asking for change just for the sake of change, get that out of your head and truly try to understand what people are saying, then maybe we can have a meaningful conversation.

I think you need improving your analytical ability. it feels like you do not take a step back and think what it is said, and rush out to make a post. Look up "Power Levels are Stupid [DBG #2] " and it will give you an idea why this current path is not a good one. FFXIV has the same problems as DBZ's concepts of focusing on "power" increases, not other things, and it eventually leads to comparing to what makes a good or bad MMO, something my friend referenced in one of the posts I made for them. Regardless I think it is a good listen for you, as if you truly take the time to think about it, and how to relate it to FFXIV, it is likely to improve your analytical skills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ko_

Is ther really anything wrong with knowing whats coming? Is that REALLY such a bad thing?

---

YES!!!! it is a VERY BAD thing! It makes things TOO EASY!!! it is boring to know EVERYTHING that is coming. (This holds more true with crafting because it prevents the use of creativity to get an edge on people to try to show success) It makes it glaring there is no point in playing. What is going be the difference of 5.1 to 5.2? same as 4.1 to 4.2, same as 4.2 to 4.3, same as 4.3 to 4.4 same as 3.1 to 3.2, same as 3.2 to 3.3, 10 ilevels why play if all the game is going to be is ilevel creep and nothing else engaging? Maybe I am wrong with saying this but some people like to be challenged mentally, and FFXIV is lacking in that, severely with being predicable in everything.

Here is the next patch, we are going to get a new raid with mechanics we seen before with a weekly limit on a gear that is the same ilevel as the current tome gear not upgraded. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Why bother when the only thing this game does is an endless treadmill for ilevels and makes older content, even from the last patch, even last patch savage (i think that is when they echo the last group and make it "causal" or is that 4.55?)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ko

I DO want harder dungeons, and more diffcult content

---

On the current path? never happening. It did not happen in HW, it did not happen in SB, 4.4 tried a BIT on mist dragon, but all that did was show people that did not know how to play on a basic level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ko

I rather want good dungeons then be shocked cause dungeons skipped a patch note.

---

On the current path of reskining everything? never happening. When you can predict and react to a set script of moves, it can never be challenging because you know what is coming and how to react to it. You seen everything in SB in HW outside a VERY FEW specific mechanics and those have a clue because of the others you did see before. With dungeons like expert and such, ill never be hard because who SE caters to, if you get hit by something, easily healed over. even if you fail the dps check on mist dragon, it is passable having around i360 ilevel you know, the tome gear of 4.3? Something everyone has that has been playing. I do not know how you manage to defend something, where that very system you are defending, makes your request not possible. Repeating the same thing, never ending treadmill is not worth 15 dollars a month + mircotransactions.

So because everything is predictable, there be no "good" dungeon" and they will continue be a push over because you seen all the mechanics the game has to offer, they are simply copy/pasted in a different order.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hamada

Such concepts is not limited to hardware or software but life it self and pretty much everything. I am not sure why you tried to suggest this is not relevant. Everything and anything (hence why animals that do not adapt to changes to environments die off) fade into history. If you want to bet that FFXIV will be the first exception in history to this, well that is a bet I will not make.

---

I think there might have been some miscommunication or something misread here since I am arguing in favor of FFXIV adapting to the times and changing in ways possible to the game. If they continue their safe pattern it will eventually sputter out especially considering how many systems they leave rotting without any kind of future additions/building upon it. As for lasting? Obviously the game will have its time in the sun, but it'd be nice if the Devs actually did something to extend its potential lifespan as long as possible with interesting content.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Noodle_Trinidad

I think there might have been some miscommunication or something misread here since I am arguing in favor of FFXIV adapting to the times and changing in ways possible to the game. If they continue their safe pattern it will eventually sputter out especially considering how many systems they leave rotting without any kind of future additions/building upon it.

---

Was not to you. Look what I said carefully before your quote in that. It was all to Zephera. I only put your quote there to show Zephera there is others agreeing to such concepts. sorry about that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hamada

Was not to you. Look what I said carefully before your quote in that. It was all to Zephera. I only put your quote there to show Zephera there is others agreeing to such concepts. sorry about that.

---

Ah my bad. Guess I was the one misunderstanding!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hamada

Was not to you. Look what I said carefully before your quote in that. It was all to Zephera. I only put your quote there to show Zephera there is others agreeing to such concepts. sorry about that.

---

I already said I don't care what others think. Also, you compared the game to the Nintendo Wii, which seemed more like a marketing success to me seeing as the Wii U flooped.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ko_

No it didn't come with an expire date.

---

PotD get an expiration date
ramuh had an expiration date
All content get an expiration date. some are fast to get, other long.
Rathalos or Xtrem primal get a small experation date... 64 kills for rathalos, 99 for extrem primals. Large part of FFXIV population did have the 64 kills of rathalos during the first month (or even faster...) so then? far less people will go in, why would they ?
For savage raid, the time most people get the skin they want, it have to wait long, maybe next expansion.

The matter for rathalos, the main reason not many people go in today : the expiration date is already over. most people did have all the kills needed.


But then you say "it is important that we have 4 people as xtrem fight instead of in dungeon" say me why? i really cant see. i search but i cant see.
I see one difference : no trash before it. You come in, you have the fight. hum... ooooook?

A new thing : a thing that changes the interaction with the game. The way you stuff, the way you farm, and i clearly cant see what rathalos does different than anything else there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ko_

Pretty much THIS. ALL OF THIS. Been saying it in all the topics that bring this up. Why should SE change or take MORE risk when the risk they DO take fail?

---

Was already answered on this topic...

People did want things more like FFXI, yes they did a mistake not poiting exactly what they wanted, but they didnt clearly think about one of the less fun thing of FFXI... but yoshida took this thing to make eureka... Yes they complains, YES they dislike what yoshida's team did, and YES the dev team should try again with a better hear of what people says. Lord of vermillion? the basis idea is good, really i like the idea, the matter is the design, poor, and not interesting to play. Their work is understand exactly what people are saying when they complain about this content, people did speak when it was released... But they prefer to forget this... maybe they will come back on in 5 years... And can continue for other things.


And you know what, people didnt leave the game because lord of vermillion or chocobo racing are fail, they are just sad, i am sad for this being fail. If blitzball is again a fail when it comes out, will be sad, but people wont quit due to it. (if they do, simply it is their last hope for the game). But, what is sad, maybe SE should fix bad content before creating new. because for race/vermillion, we dont speak about content that changes nothing to the way we experience the game (not even their job, they are here for some fun outside of "main" contents)... they are so bad so that none go in, so... like doesnt exist.


No, when you read people complaining about SE doing the same thing over and over, we find what? the copy-paste of patches, the predictable patches and contents, the stupid bashing +FATE TRAIN of eureka anemos and pagos and, we fear, pyros. People did quite (on what i read) applause rathalos, because even if there was one boss without hate and ground mark, it was good to find another one, was a full bonus content (out of the cycle we know too much). They also complains that every patch they do the same thing than 6 month before, exactly. there we are 4.4?

The fate train of eureka, lets speak about it... It is one of the oldest game feature. born the first week of the game. And people didnt do it because it was so marvellous, so fun. But because there were no other choice. Doing a dungeon you could hope what... 10% of your level in the best situation? with all sidequests used for the main-class (and ... had to fate train sometime even with this to go from 46 to 50... because the side quest after only gave half a level v_v" ). And even when 2.1 came out, it continued for everyone to be better to farm fate traine than dungeon to level. We had to wait PotD to finally get rid of it and have a far more fun way to level other jobs...
People did complains about fate train to get atmas (when the droprate was low...). It became the current complains because most (all?) seasonnal event were "go farm this / those FATE" (and OH they took the risk to change this and... it doesnt look people dislike ! :o ). And we finally had atma 2.0 in begining HW, and atma3.0 with Yokai watch. with all time, the same simple complain from players "stop with fate content, stoooop"
And? they did create eureka with the fate train ? Thank you to not saying "the players did it" it is not the player fault when the best way to get a thing is fate train, it is a fact decided by the design...


You says, they take the risk to make people run away if they change for the sake of change. but, i (and i think the others) dont ask them to change the game, i like FFXIV, i want FFXIV, and when i was on other game, taking risks, even when they failed with it, it didnt people run away, it is more many fails and on big things that make people run away. a MMORPG, you can also fix some mistake, if tomorrow they stop with tomestone to try anything different. but, this new thing get to low drop rate? improve drop rate. this is an example.

In 2.0, tomestone did allow us to buy the same ilvl than bahamut stuff. the "AF+1" where ilvl 90 like allagan stuff. People did complain about it, thinking the raiding should be more rewarding, on the other side, Yoshida and his team did want that everyone can finally get similar stuff. And then, they took a risk. and most did like it. tomestone stuff ins raid stuff with 10 ilvl less, the raid dropping what needed to get to same ilvl, then, on next patches, different way out of raid to get those improve-ilvl items. (began with raid24 and hunt).
Was a risk yes, because with doing the way the "endgame players" asked, Yoshida did a move against other players, and some did complain it became harder to get topstuff . After ARR release, when the game was growing, 2.2 and after did show us that they could take some risks, change some things, break some rules to build other.



here is a quote from a developper about taking risks while making a MMORPG :

Quote:

---

Being safe is for tourists and for most casual games.

---

Who did says this? Mark Jacobs. Father of one of the greatest MMORPG, Dark Age Of Camelot. A game that Yoshida did say he played a lot.

FFXIV is a game only made to create as much as money possible.
Other game, those that take risks, admit they could get less money, but be better.

I dont say that good game are not bought and FFXIV is bad game, i just say that FFXIV could make profit and taking risk. but SE doesnt want "profit" they want "as much as possible".
A fun thing, a great part of people complaining about treadmill are also quite not happy about the alltime growing cash shop, so... not of the best customers... Better to make stay a customer that spend 10, 20 or more euros each year in CS than people complaining about it. . . Great game huh?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zephera

I already said I don't care what others think. Also, you compared the game to the Nintendo Wii, which seemed more like a marketing success to me seeing as the Wii U flooped.

---

So you come to a topic, to say you dont care to what we think, and explain that you dont care...
So you dont care about this topic.
And you speak on it because you dont care of it... ... ...

you know... here is a palce to speak between people... if you come just to say "i dont care what you say" it is less time loss for you to simply... not coming...?
Except if it is a way to say "shut up moron" ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hamada

At the end of the day, I am waiting for KO to reply on the idea Yoshi-P made a statement that goes completely against what KO is trying to argue here, this is the 4th or 5th time I asked them to comment on it and still has yet done so.

---

That qoute means nothing when the game itself is doing what it's doing. He's said millions of things that don't come into the game. So why should I care about that one? He's also the same dev who said if you don't like it go play other games. Remember that one? So yeah forgive me if I'm not hanging on every word he says. I'm just playing the game. And when I'm bored I'll leave. simple as that.
Just because you know whats in the patchnotes doesn't mean it's omg bad content. Like I said before. Ultimate, Rath and many other things prove you wrong on the point where they can and have made harder content in this game. Just because they listen to cry babies to nerf everything doeasn't mean the entire game needs to kill it's endgame in favor for soemthing untested in this game. Why not just ask for improvements instead of rewriting the whole game cause you're bored?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ko_

That qoute means nothing when the game itself is doing what it's doing. He's said millions of things that don't come into the game. So why should I care about that one? He's also the same dev who said if you don't like it go play other games. Remember that one? So yeah forgive me if I'm not hanging on every word he says. I'm just playing the game. And when I'm bored I'll leave. simple as that.
Just because you know whats in the patchnotes doesn't mean it's omg bad content. Like I said before. Ultimate, Rath and many other things prove you wrong on the point where they can and have made harder content in this game. Just because they listen to cry babies to nerf everything doeasn't mean the entire game needs to kill it's endgame in favor for soemthing untested in this game. Why not just ask for improvements instead of rewriting the whole game cause you're bored?

---

Here is the quote:

Quote:

---

Y: It is the second expansion pack, and if we were to do the same thing all over again, a lot of people would get tired of it. Like I said earlier, the base design of FFXIV will not change. It’s a game made for this age, but that’s exactly why even if it were to change in the future to fit the future trends, it won’t return to the past. And even if a past trend were to become a modern trend, it still must include a “modern vibe” to it. It is not negating the past, but rather extracting the interesting elements, and inviting players who like them. That’s the product we are aiming for.

---

Here is the interview:

https://gamerescape.com/2016/11/15/f...-fan-festival/

SO answer me, how can one say this only to turn around, completely copy HW, reskin it, slap a new ilevel on it, and call it "Stormblood"? The reason this was bought up because this same issue was being talked about in HW on how they recycled the formula and this time around, not only did they do that, but clone the complete expansion.

So I guess this is attempt 6 now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hamada

Here is the quote:



Here is the interview:

https://gamerescape.com/2016/11/15/f...-fan-festival/

SO answer me, how can one say this only to turn around, completely copy HW, reskin it, slap a new ilevel on it, and call it "Stormblood"? The reason this was bought up because this same issue was being talked about in HW on how they recycled the formula and this time around, not only did they do that, but clone the complete expansion.

So I guess this is attempt 6 now?

---

Seems like you didn't read what I just said. I said I don't care about what he said. I KNOW about said interview. Doesn't change my answer like I just said.

At Op. I feel the same way as your friend. I hate how the stale the game has become it is so predictable. More then that though I hate how they have been spoon feeding me content like I am a child.

Eureka has been pretty meh, Whm the job I love the most still has a identity crisis, Crafting has become press 2 buttons and craft. More then that I hate being treated as if I am child being told when to eat and then being forced to wait for the rest of my meal.

I will probably return near 5.0 but I will treat Square as a child they will probably get three to fourth months of sub from me per year. No house will force me to stay.

Personally I've hit that burnout myself. I love the universe they have created and currently only play to see more story and to keep my homes. I love this game and would love to see it revitalized but it just feels like it lacks that spark, dungeons all feel the same, mechanics all feel the same, everything just feels the same. New patches tend to feel exactly like the last patch and eureka has just been the least fun content I have experienced in a long time. It's hard to feel invested in even the raids or trials because I face a boss and I feel like I've already fought this boss before at least 20 different occasions.

I really hope the devs breathe some life back into the game with 5.0. Don't be afraid to take risks! I want to see things spiced up and with a fresh perspective and take on things. I don't want to feel like I know exactly what I am getting every single patch, I want to be excited for new patches because of the unknown. With so many games trying to take my time that are fun from start to finish these days, it is hard to justify spending that time in a game that feels like it doesn't value my time and admittedly doesn't even try to be fun. I think the worst thing a game can be is "boring" and without that element of surprise or excitement FFXIV's patches just feel boring.

Yoshi P, and the entire Dev Team, I hope you guys take a new direction with XIV to revitalize this game! I miss the days where I was excited to explore eorzea and never knew what could be coming up next! You guys have a great product, you just have to be willing to break away from the pattern and tools you have created, and make a new path with a new toolbox!

Pretty much feel the same as the OP, and while I'm still enjoying FFXIV (while mostly playing other games) I just don't feel anywhere near as invested in SB as I was in HW, and without some seriously good changes announced for 5.0 I doubt I will bother.

To elaborate further, I feel like the three major difference between HW and SB are:
1. No real relic quest in SB. This is bigger than I first thought, but Eureka is not a substitute for the relic quest; a real relic quest is more spread out, more varied, and lets you do it in your own time... Eureka feels more like instanced raid progression, hitting your head against a wall over and over until you finally 'break though' and are just glad it's over.

2. Crafting seems, boring... maybe it was just that it wasn't until HW that I really 'discovered' crafting, but SB crafting just seems like a copy-paste of HW, only easier (weeklies) and more brain dead (class quests, same way of getting materials as HW). It also somehow feels less rewarding... maybe due to being easier... maybe due to a lack of things worth crafting (again, no relic) ... not sure.

3. From the cross-role system, to the design of eureka, to mediocre job design, to a continued lack of certain types of content, it just seems like the gameplay / systems designers are asleep at the wheel (assuming FFXIV still has gameplay / systems designers?), or too busy working on things that don't matter (like endless PvP reworks :/ ) ... as I said, things need to change come 5.0 because HWv3 is not going to fly, especially with a new wave of MMOs hitting in the next year or two (Pantheon, WoW Classic, Ashes of Creation, etc.).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dragon_punch

Anytime SE tries to innovate new things we get stuck with stuff like Lords of Vermillion, Diadem and Euruka. We all know how the community feels about them. Until they figure out how to design new content that the community likes, were going to be doing the same content with a new coat of paint every time.

---

Ah yes, funny you brought up these things and call them innovation. Yes, they are different from what the core game is, but isn't it obvious that these innovations are not good. Are they popular? No. Do people bother with them? Not that many. If that is literally the sole reason FFXIV is afraid of change things around, instead, they just continue to copy paste the same old formula patch by patch until (7.0?) to be safe; then that means these innovation lacks enough thoughts, plannings, and efforts to begin with. Bad innovation chase your customers away and so do zero innovation. I'm not going to be protective and let SE put FFXIV in a greenhouse because so far what they've come up all failed. If they don't keep trying, the customers will have to move on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miziliti

Ah yes, funny you brought up these things and call them innovation. Yes, they are different from what the core game is, but isn't it obvious that these innovations are not good. Are they popular? No. Do people bother with them? Not that many. If that is literally the sole reason FFXIV is afraid of change things around, instead, they just continue to copy paste the same old formula patch by patch until (7.0?) to be safe; then that means these innovation lacks enough thoughts, plannings, and efforts to begin with. Bad innovation chase your customers away and so do zero innovation. I'm not going to be protective and let SE put FFXIV in a greenhouse because so far what they've come up all failed. If they don't keep trying, the customers will have to move on.

---

He's not wrong tho. They won't change anything until they find something that actually works, none of that is changing the core mind you. But you can't expect them to keep throwing things into the wall and their suits -bosses and investors- will be happy about it. At some point if not already you can bet those bosses are like " Do what works and bring us those checks" You can only fail so many times before you're told to stop completely.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jxnibbles

Whm the job I love the most still has a identity crisis, Crafting has become press 2 buttons and craft.

---

How so? What's this identity crisis you speak of? You still bitter about role skills giving the other two healers abilities previously exclusive to WHM? If that is the case, AST and DRK would like to have a conversation with you. AST is a WHM with cards, and DRK is only a DRK in name and aesthetics. These two jobs truly do not have an identity to call their own. And even though I don't play MCH, I'd wager this 3rd HW job also struggles - as little birds have told me in order to influence my bet. Trust me, WHM does not have an identity problem. If it did, players would not be able to believe and say that AST is a WHM with cards. You should know that I am not stating this; I am echoing it.

Oh and can you please send me your 2-step crafting rotation for starred recipes. This would save me so much time!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gemina

Trust me, WHM does not have an identity problem. If it did, players would not be able to believe and say that AST is a WHM with cards. You should know that I am not stating this; I am echoing it.

---

Please tell me what is WHMs identity? What differinates it from AST?

I mean I know his identity is "strong heals", but his heals aren't actually stronger than ASTs. AST is the WHM copy with additional utility, shorter cast times, better instant heal options and he has basically no drawback for this. In other words despite the fact that AST is a copy of WHM, WHM is only a budget AST, he has no niche of his own and nothing special - except Cure 3 lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tint

Please tell me what is WHMs identity? What differinates it from AST?

I mean I know his identity is "strong heals", but his heals aren't actually stronger than ASTs. AST is the WHM copy with additional utility, shorter cast times, better instant heal options and he has basically no drawback for this. In other words despite the fact that AST is a copy of WHM, WHM is only a budget AST, he has no niche of his own and nothing special - except Cure 3 lol.

---

Whm's mana efficiency far outpaces ast and sch. That's certainly a niche beyond having cure 3. Whms are frequently used for progress because of this. There is more room for error if a whm is in the group.

The reason why whm is treated like budget ast isn't because of the healing kit. It's because whm can do literally -nothing- to buff raid dps, whereas both ast and sch can. As soon as a group knows the fight and thus know how to take less damage then often this is when the whm will switch to ast because at this point whm's niche loses value.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tint

Please tell me what is WHMs identity? What differinates it from AST?

I mean I know his identity is "strong heals", but his heals aren't actually stronger than ASTs. AST is the WHM copy with additional utility, shorter cast times, better instant heal options and he has basically no drawback for this. In other words despite the fact that AST is a copy of WHM, WHM is only a budget AST, he has no niche of his own and nothing special - except Cure 3 lol.

---

WHM was here first. Long before AST came around. AST has simply borrowed abilities from both WHM and SCH, and does not have enough of its own niche to be given an individual identity. I play all three healers, and AST is great and a lot of fun to play. However, this does not establish an identity for the job. This is done through unique gameplay. SCH accomplishes this. Nothing about it feels like a WHM. Truly a well designed job that has its own identity despite sharing their starting class.

WHM not bringing enough raid utility and becoming a discount AST is not an identity issue. It's a gameplay and design issue. It really doesn't have anything to do with who has stronger heals, faster cast times, better ogcds, etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Penthea

Whm's mana efficiency far outpaces ast and sch. That's certainly a niche beyond having cure 3. Whms are frequently used for progress because of this. There is more room for error if a whm is in the group.

The reason why whm is treated like budget ast isn't because of the healing kit. It's because whm can do literally -nothing- to buff raid dps, whereas both ast and sch can. As soon as a group knows the fight and thus know how to take less damage then often this is when the whm will switch to ast because at this point whm's niche loses value.

---

Actually, Astro has pulled ahead even in the prog scene. O12S, for example, requires a lot of quick movement which renders Cure III useless. Astro's healing is overall superior due to Sect bonuses; Essential Dignity outpaces Tetra both in CD length and overall heal potency as does Earthly over Assize. The only thing WHM has at this point is better MP management. In terms of everything else, Astro has eclipsed it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Actually, Astro has pulled ahead even in the prog scene. O12S, for example, requires a lot of quick movement which renders Cure III useless. Astro's healing is overall superior due to Sect bonuses; Essential Dignity outpaces Tetra both in CD length and overall heal potency as does Earthly over Assize. The only thing WHM has at this point is better MP management. In terms of everything else, Astro has eclipsed it.

---

Fair enough but even when ast was doing less hps than whm it was favoured anyway because of the raid dps buffs it brings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Acidblood

2. Crafting seems, boring... maybe it was just that it wasn't until HW that I really 'discovered' crafting, but SB crafting just seems like a copy-paste of HW, only easier (weeklies) and more brain dead (class quests, same way of getting materials as HW). It also somehow feels less rewarding... maybe due to being easier... maybe due to a lack of things worth crafting (again, no relic) ... not sure.

---

I'll just say the easiest way to change crafting would be to simply have crafters able to produce the -exact- same gear you get from drops/tomes with HQ's having advanced melding available, having dyed/pentamelded where the tomes base does not. Where as the existing path is typically the gear you get from raiding/tomes can not be dyed without upgrading it with something from the other raid. Once the tomes devalue, then you can simply buy the tomes upgrade without doing the raid. If a gear is no longer valuable for it's melding value, then players can still craft dyable versions of it for glamour.

Thus there are two ways of getting that gear, instead of one, and you can save some time if you have all your crafter jobs leveled. Though the materials would likely be harder to obtain if everyone chooses that route.