DRK changes from Prelim notes

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Originally Posted by Chrono_Rising

These points aside, it is great as a mana dump now and in that purpose is nearly always useful.

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True! Better than blowing it on TBN at an inopportune time and wasting it. Don't get me wrong, it's a step in the right direction. I do have a pretty strong personal bias for Dark Passenger, considering Cecil was my introduction to Dark Knights in Final Fantasy and not utilizing it would be like if Dragoons didn't use Jump, to me.
But especially pre-delirium MP burst or something like that, it's less of a sacrifice than it used to be. I just wish it was more central to Dark Knight's gameplay like it was in Heavensward is all. Other than my personal feelings towards Dark Passenger and Plunge needing some extra range, I think all these abilities are now perfect until the next expansion.

(I am worried that off tank dark knights will spam Power Slash even more now...they were already doing it before. But that's on them, not a problem with Power Slash.)

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Originally Posted by Seku

Which is really Rune Fencer posing as Dark Knight.

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No kidding, but they aren't changing it is my point. It doesn't matter what they pulled from other jobs, this is their DRK just like that scythe class in XI was that game's DRK.

They aren't going to put in that kind of effort to appease the "there are dozens of us" niche group people shouting about it not feeling like they think DRK should.

You're much better off hoping reworks will make it feel more like you envision a DRK (which can totally happen in 5.0) than imagining that they'll change this job to Rune Fencer.

Oh and...

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...rit-in-savages

People totally did have threat/enmity concerns with DRK.

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Originally Posted by Valdegarde

No problem. To be honest, I'd be completely 100% happy with Dark Passenger if it was as you mentioned. So close! Maybe reduce the dark arts potency compared to the baseline so it's not "too strong" for AoE if that's an issue.

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Yeah takes a little of the ZOMG-ness out of it. I have wanted passenger to be a DPS neutral ST skill with enmity mod for ages. Got excited about my dream coming true and forgot the details. Still good snap agro, mana dump.

This is just speculation, but I have a sneaking suspicion that it will have a LARGE enmity mod though and push it past DA plunge for enmity (Onslaught 10x level) making it VERY worth it as an enmity tool for the cost low cost of 16.8 potency for say, 1400 enmity. That's my hope anyway. Still a reasonable tool as is even with only a moderate enmity buff.

HNNNG so hyped to play new drk. I really missed having snap agro whenever I change from war to drk. Smoother CD rotation. Will definitely be playing a ton more Drk once this goes live.

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Originally Posted by shao32

First im a man, and second come at me on chardanook without a mch, nin, dragoon And 31,12% of balance uptime like me and we can Talk.

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I've already beaten your best twice before on non-optimal comps, and I've done so when I had a byakko weapon back in early april. I don't even have a diamond weapon, and I still smoke you.

Come at me, princess.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

Come at me, princess.

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Now this is signature worthy.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

snip.

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i love how you asume my gear on each run and justify my diamon weapon i get this week, im all for a healty talk about who have better uptime more if we can compare almost same comps and why you consider DRK easy compared to burst type gameplays but i wont allow you actitude anymore, so sorry hierro im done with you, have fun in the game.

Just popping into say I am glad that I will finally be able to pick up my main again and not feel like my job is holding people back. The Shadow Wall and Mind changes are wonderful, Plunge is alright and I suspect it and DP are going to need to be tested to see which one is more viable for snap aggro; my bet is on DP taking that hands down.

The Sole Survivor change, however, is the one change I have stated on reddit and in many of my personal circles that I wanted, and I honestly never expected them to just make it a 20% MP/HP heal if it falls off... my immediate thought was timing TBN and SS for a buster and basically healing the damage absorbed by TBN.

Sole Survivor alone is going to have a lot of great applications for sure and I can't wait to try it out. I also like that DA Power Slash is basically going to be an enmity nuke with that potency change

All in all, it's not the extent of what I wanted to see, but the changes they made are more than enough for now. If they want to throw us another bone in 4.4 or the like I wouldn't be against it, but we're at least now theoretically more on equal footing.

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Originally Posted by InfiniDragon

No kidding, but they aren't changing it is my point. It doesn't matter what they pulled from other jobs, this is their DRK just like that scythe class in XI was that game's DRK.

They aren't going to put in that kind of effort to appease the "there are dozens of us" niche group people shouting about it not feeling like they think DRK should.

You're much better off hoping reworks will make it feel more like you envision a DRK (which can totally happen in 5.0) than imagining that they'll change this job to Rune Fencer.

Oh and...

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...rit-in-savages

People totally did have threat/enmity concerns with DRK.

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From the same thread with many other people going over the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Cabalabob

Lucid dreaming cuts your healers enmity in half so if they’re using that regularly (which they should be for mp anyway) they shouldn’t take aggro, if they do they’re cure bombing like crazy.

Melee dps have diversion to reduce their enmity generation by 90%, using that during their burst window will really help keep their aggro in check.

DRG also has elusive jump which cuts enmity in half and has a 30 sec recast, if they can find places to weave that in (gap closer) they’ll never take hate.

NIN has shadewalker which gives 80% of their enmity to the target (you) which helps you hold the lead. And smokescreen which prevents a target party member from catching up.

Ranged have refresh and tactician which also cut enmity in half so if used at the right times should be enough to keep their aggro in check.

Casters have access to both lucid and diversion.

Tanks have shirk which gives 25% of their enmity to you, they should be using this in combination with provoke to give you a large enmity boost while keeping theirs down.

Basically everyone has enmity control, and unlike grit, all of these options are oGCD and don’t reduce their damage dealt by 20%. Your job is to take the enmity lead, their job is to make sure you keep it.

You are now armed with the knowledge of every enmity tool at your party’s disposal, go tell them to step it up.

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So while Enimty gain was the weakest on Dark Knight, it was not the main concern that consistently showed up through out a large amount of threads. Dark Knight sucking at Utility 100%, not pushing out enough DPS when compared to the other tanks, and clunky general design however was.

Also wishing they would / they should rename into Rune fencer does not equal they will make it into Rune Fencer. They will instead give us less content in exchange for making more mog station glamor for us to buy, FATE grinders for relics, and re-hases of content they've already tried and that has failed. But eh, I'm here to chill with a few friends only anyway.

And finally, DRK's in FF11 use Great Swords, Scythes, Axes, single swords, and shields. Great Sword has been their main weapon in 11 for the last 3-4 years in terms of DPS, while the Scythe only helps if you have the Relic which allows them to co-tank if they put dozens of hours into the game ( Assuming no outside help for gil farming)

Those two need a damn room.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Those two need a damn room.

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You mean me and that guy above you? Nah I'm good, I said what I needed to about DRK's job identity and threat concerns compared to the other tanks. I'm happy with the changes and think it's step in the right direction.

Now if you mean the two people battling about their parses... I sort of agree haha.

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Originally Posted by InfiniDragon

You mean me and that guy above you? Nah I'm good, I said what I needed to about DRK's job identity and threat concerns compared to the other tanks. I'm happy with the changes and think it's step in the right direction.

Now if you mean the two people battling about their parses... I sort of agree haha.

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Yes.
plusten

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Yes.
plusten

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I suppose you could say...We know who'd be top. ;)

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Originally Posted by Hierro

I suppose you could say...We know who'd be top. ;)

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Dunno. Bit of work on their end, you two could be a couple switches.

;)

Since posters covered most of the specifics, I'll just say I am satisfied with the DRK changes for 4.3 overall.

i can't understand the DA spam complaint. it's just another button. it's not like you are hitting it for every gcd.

sam has a lot ocd skills as well. so does nin and drg.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

-snip-

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You really embody the class fantasy of DRK: sticking to your values regardless of what others think.
That's not always good.

On point: These changes are a GREAT step forward. Sure, DA+____ is now a meme, but whatever, oGCD enmity! SqEnix made SS great again!
Now let's see what the enmity modifiers, the new Grit MP cost, and how the new cooldowns shake things up.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

with Dark Mind (which was an actual engaging use of Dark Arts) .

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Nobody used DADM except in Neo and Prime.

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Originally Posted by shao32

since shake it off is miles better that TBN DRK should wiled the best dps of the 3 or at least being equal to war, not being the lowest of the 3,and if you think DRK is more easy that PLD you never try seriously optimice DRK.

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SIO and TBN arent even remotely similar.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

SqEnix made SS great again!

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This would imply that SS was ever good in the first place.

I'm just happy they ultimately didn't go with the PVP Sole Survivor. It would have been better but it would have been boring.

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Originally Posted by Luin

Nobody used DADM except in Neo and Prime.

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Because, to begin with, DM is as niche as it gets. But my point still stands, it was an engaging use of Dark Arts nevertheless.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

Because, to begin with, DM is as niche as it gets. But my point still stands, it was an engaging use of Dark Arts nevertheless.

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i thought it was the most boring way to use dark arts. on par with dark dance, but that skill is gone now...

don't get me wrong, both effects were strong, but the feedback was.... meh. use dark arts, then this cooldown and... nothing happens? when empowering an attack with dark arts i get the feeling of now i load my mana into my blade and now i unleash it for more power! - thanks to the attack animation^^ with dark mind just an icon appeared. at least blackest night is visually more appealing and when the shield breaks there is a sound effect and the blood gauge fills, to unleash a powerfull counter attack :O

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Originally Posted by Tint

i thought it was the most boring way to use dark arts. on par with dark dance, but that skill is gone now...

don't get me wrong, both effects were strong, but the feedback was.... meh. use dark arts, then this cooldown and... nothing happens? when empowering an attack with dark arts i get the feeling of now i load my mana into my blade and now i unleash it for more power! - thanks to the attack animation^^ with dark mind just an icon appeared. at least blackest night is visually more appealing and when the shield breaks there is a sound effect and the blood gauge fills, to unleash a powerfull counter attack :O

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You had to time DA with DM, it was actually fun. Can't say the same for DD, didn't like DA on that one much. Anyway, DA is now a spammy skill that doesn't weave as it did back in HW. It felt like you were dancing, it was natural. Feels so clunky now.

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Originally Posted by Tanathya

You had to time DA with DM, it was actually fun. Can't say the same for DD, didn't like DA on that one much. Anyway, DA is now a spammy skill that doesn't weave as it did back in HW. It felt like you were dancing, it was natural. Feels so clunky now.

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I completely disagree. It was more of a hassle than anything fun. Either you clip your GCD or you waste duration by needing to DADM early when you HS. It could have been fine if literally every gcd besides HS didn't eat Dark Arts. Considering it's a defensive cd, I don't like feeling forced to use it early not because the fight requires it, but because my rotation does. And unlike Thrill+Upheaval I'm not gaining, I'm just not losing anything; except during buffs, where you'd lose a lot of dmg.

As for having to time DADM, that's nonsense. You time every cd. Your cooldowns should be mapped for a fight, timing DADM isn't a thing, it's an inconvenience compared to normal cooldowns like SWall/TBN/LD because while those can just be *used* when you expect, DADM must be used on HS/SS, or you skip a DASE/BS, or clip. Under BW it's only usable with HS w/o clipping.

DA back in HW didnt feel clunky because you didn't DA 8 times a minute. Look at Creator, look at Sigma, we're using Dark Arts on average twice as much as HW DRK.

And during Blood Weapon or Trick Attack? You're kidding. Machinists think they have it hard. The DA spam is unreal.

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Originally Posted by Luin

As for having to time DADM, that's nonsense. You time every cd. Your cooldowns should be mapped for a fight, timing DADM isn't a thing, it's an inconvenience compared to normal cooldowns like SWall/TBN/LD because while those can just be *used* when you expect, DADM must be used on HS/SS, or you skip a DASE/BS, or clip. Under BW it's only usable with HS w/o clipping.

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Lol right, though I remember having to time it on Alexander Savage and it was really fun to do. Not that I'm not welcoming the change, I just don't like the turn Dark Arts has taken in SB for the worse and would definitely rather have the old DRK. Having this DA spam is what's wrong. So, nonsense my ass, it was fun to time DA and DM, that you don't see it that way is something as subjective as my own point of view.

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Originally Posted by Luin

SIO and TBN arent even remotely similar.

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no, they are not similar but fall in the same category with is mitigation utility to the raid, SIO is superior in all sense bcs shield 8 person every 90 seconds for almost every important raid damage, to shield 8 person with TBN you have to spend 120 seconds.

we can talk about they work diferent yes but in the end SIO offer much more damage mitigation even much more if you planned you CD usage and have all the time raw to spend on SIO while TBN become counterproductiveuse used almost on CD due you will constantly overcaping you blood due the little control you have about when exactly pops and after reach a certain number TBN become a dps loose.

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Originally Posted by shao32

no, they are not similar but fall in the same category with is mitigation utility to the raid, SIO is superior in all sense bcs shield 8 person every 90 seconds for almost every important raid damage, to shield 8 person with TBN you have to spend 120 seconds.

we can talk about they work diferent yes but in the end SIO offer much more damage mitigation even much more if you planned you CD usage and have all the time raw to spend on SIO while TBN become counterproductiveuse used almost on CD due you will constantly overcaping you blood due the little control you have about when exactly pops and after reach a certain number TBN become a dps loose.

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No, SIO and TBN aren't the same thing, but I understand what you mean. Ideally, TBN is a solid anti-buster cooldown (and it fits that role nicely) OR a good raid helping skill for damage mitigation on a single target. In practice, with the recent SIO change that occurred in the last big patch, TBN has been overshadowed in that role. It's very easy to RI+SIO and get a 12% max hp shield on everyone in the raid with a 90s CD, and it's not that much harder to bump the shield up to 16% via well-timed use of Vengeance or ToB. And that's fine, since it's a single cooldown that, on it's own, isn't so hot. The issue is, while baseline SIO is 8% per person, TBN is only 10% on everyone but the DRK. Imo, TBN needs to be buffed to 15% when used on others in order to slot it more firmly in the niche of "use this as a cooldown to actually save one person's life." That would be a net of 60% over the course of 60s, whereas baseline SIO is 64% with a 90s CD, or 96% when paired with a single defensive CD.

I'd also like to see some kind of "consolation" mechanic if TBN doesn't get popped, but only on others. Something uniquely DRK, like a short-term buff that removes MP cost for the next two moves, or maybe the next Quietus or BS is auto-buffed with a free DA that is exclusive to that skill.

As for the prospective changes themselves, they're not terrible, but this obsession with DA usage needs to stop. I agree with those saying that DRK needs another combo of some sort. Functionally, DRK's have one combo of any worth right now, and while it's true we intersperse BS every now and then, there's so little variety that it makes me yearn for the days of HW DRK.

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Originally Posted by Quor

snip

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A flat 20% of the DRK's HP in a shield no matter who the target is could be kinda interesting. It'd be a pretty exceptional single target piece of mitigation that stacks with other shields, sorta like Intervention but a lot beefier.

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Originally Posted by Quor

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thats what i mean, are diferent skills but offer the same, mitigation to others but in diferent forms, and SIO offer much more mitiagiton that TBN by a mile so due that relation DRK should out dps WAR by at least 100 dps to be complety in line with the other 2 on what they offer to the raid.

i highly preffer they buff DRK dps over buff TBN so this will make WAR dont be the best on everything except on raid utilitywith its just almost head to head with paladin.

And here I was trying to learn Paladin. Now it seems DRK had a chance to hold their own now. Cant wait to see how these changes effect the game.

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Originally Posted by shao32

no, they are not similar but fall in the same category with is mitigation utility to the raid, SIO is superior in all sense bcs shield 8 person every 90 seconds for almost every important raid damage, to shield 8 person with TBN you have to spend 120 seconds.

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You can pretty much turn this statement around and say TBN is superior to SiO because TBN mitigates tankbusters way better than SiO.

It's hard to compare those two abilities on the same usage, since they are not made for the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Megguido

You can pretty much turn this statement around and say TBN is superior to SiO because TBN mitigates tankbusters way better than SiO.

It's hard to compare those two abilities on the same usage, since they are not made for the same thing.

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i go to re-writte all the post.

they are made for the same thing, extra mitigation on other members of you team, the purpose is the same, SIO is for aoes TBN for single target thats clear but dont change the final goal, single target shield dont have much more value that aoe shield in general TBN is not strong enough to make any diference on your healers, specially due aoes are much more present that single target mechanics with are most of the time random ,making you interrup you rotation, select the correct team mate and pray the ping put the shield on time, SIO its just straight forward like everything on WAR great effect minimun effort.
we can use TBN to help the MT yes and that dont requred much effort but SIO is 90 seconds, its like a rampart and can be buffed with the skills you dont use or dont need in that moment, it can mitigate almost all TB for you co-tank too and better.

in resume SIO have to short recast it can be used for many single target mechanics too if they want it or need it but most of his value come from aoes specially those aoe chains helping a lot healers to top the party up a lo more faster and all the lb bars they generate from the superior over all damage mitigated.

*Shelltron/Intervention. Single target: Use for TB when MT, use to support individual when OT.
*TBN. Single target: Use for TB when MT, use to support individual when OT.
*SIO. AOE: Raid shield gaining strength from eating CDs.

One of these things is not like the others,
One of these things just doesn't belong,
Can you tell which thing is not like the others
By the time I finish my song?

Some people need to watch more sesame street before posting.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

*Shelltron/Intervention. Single target: Use for TB when MT, use to support individual when OT.
*TBN. Single target: Use for TB when MT, use to support individual when OT.
*SIO. AOE: Raid shield gaining strength from eating CDs.

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Why did you pair these skills together ? The PLD equivalent of SiO is not Sheltron or Intervention but Divine Veil or Passage of Arms, and the WAR equivalent of Sheltron is not SiO but Inner Beast.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

*Shelltron/Intervention. Single target: Use for TB when MT, use to support individual when OT.
*TBN. Single target: Use for TB when MT, use to support individual when OT.
*SIO. AOE: Raid shield gaining strength from eating CDs.

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all of then are mitigation utility serve for the same purpose in diferent ways, they work for diferent attacks i never deny that or say another thing, im saying comparing the overall contribution of SIO and TBN this last one apart of being just 15 second recast and being used in any single target mechanic its just a small weak shield, it cant do the same thing that cover or intervetion and the short recast cant compete the raid contribution SIO does.
both are same kind of shield but SIO is an aoe and yes they work for diferent attacks but im not talking about that, im talking about how the raid takes less mitigation and generate more lb with SIO and TBN is great to support you MT but the overall contribution is inferior, the benefics of SIO are superior and the benefics of TBN are just ok.

The changes are, for the most part, welcome.

The changes to Dark Passenger were interesting but at least now we get more use of the chunk of MP it takes to use.

The DA Plunge is a neat idea, it is now the go-to pull skill for bosses and might also work for that one mob that goes to attack the healer or a hyperactive DPS.

Soul Survivor is also a nice change, but the cooldown on that ability is still too much.

When I saw the changes to Shadow Wall's cooldown and Dark Minds "liberation" from Dark Arts, I literally yelled "finally!".

Now we need slight changes to Syphon Strike, Carve and Spit, Delirium (the cooldown, mostly) and Living Dead. And maybe something to alleviate the MP guzzle that is Dark Arts?

I found one thing in this thread of interest:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._note_reading/

They noted "Dark knight adjustments won't be enough to fix the core, but they did as much as they could with the time they had".


Could that mean we'll continue to see changes in patches prior to a major rework (probably 5.0)? Seems like it.

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Originally Posted by InfiniDragon

I found one thing in this thread of interest:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme..._note_reading/

They noted "Dark knight adjustments won't be enough to fix the core, but they did as much as they could with the time they had".


Could that mean we'll continue to see changes in patches prior to a major rework (probably 5.0)? Seems like it.

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God I truly hope so.

There are a few more things that need to be done to flesh out DRKs kit a bit more (souleater heal outside of grit, Dark Arts rework, and Plunge range increase as just a few examples), and we'd kinda like them BEFORE 5.0 hits...

I think you're out of luck on Dark Arts, that sounds like the "rework that will take several months" territory knowing SE.

More likely buffs are potency for a bit more DPS, Souleater heal and Plunge distance, and maybe further tweaks to Dark Passenger/Sole Survivor if they find the first changes weren't enough.

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Originally Posted by InfiniDragon

I think you're out of luck on Dark Arts, that sounds like the "rework that will take several months" territory knowing SE.

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I know, but I can dream, can't I?! xD

Well, as long as the changes aren't only "Souleater potency +" and "Bloodspiller potency +" and that's it, like we have been getting since 4.0 hit, I'll be happy.

If I see patch notes do that nonsense again, gonna scream...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Why did you pair these skills together ? The PLD equivalent of SiO is not Sheltron or Intervention but Divine Veil or Passage of Arms, and the WAR equivalent of Sheltron is not SiO but Inner Beast.

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shao23 was making a statement on comparing TBN and SiO when they're not easily comparable to what was written earlier, which is why Izsha included in Shelltron/Intervention, the point being that TBN is much more similar to S/I, than to SiO.
Just read the last page, Izsha's statement is not great without it's context.

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Originally Posted by nousernameplease

Just read the last page, Izsha's statement is not great without it's context.

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But since Sheltron and Intervention are neither WAR nor DRK skills, it adds nothing to comparing WAR and DRK's skillset, especially when PLD has 4 skills that leans closer to either SiO or TBN.
They're still the only native skill they have to provide "mitigation for others".

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

But since Sheltron and Intervention are neither WAR nor DRK skills, it adds nothing to comparing WAR and DRK's skillset, especially when PLD has 4 skills that leans closer to either SiO or TBN.
They're still the only native skill they have to provide "mitigation for others".

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Izsha just took PLD's skills to help showing the difference between DRK and WAR.

If you just want to compare just DRK and WAR it's more like this:

WAR can protect himself with Inner Beast.
DRK can protect himself with TBN.

DRK can protect 1 other person (mainly the tank) with TBN
WAR can't do that.

WAR can protect the entire raid with SiO.
DRK can't do that.

TBN and SiO may be the only DRK and WAR skills that can protect others, but since bosses either hit only the tank or the entire raid with most of their attacks, it just doesn't make sense comparing TBN with SiO.

The point is: DRK is the only tankjob without an ability to provide against heavy raidwide dmg.