The Unofficial "Why is this still a thing" Thread

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

I'm reading this and I'm confused. SAMs don't really help tanks or ninjas in that sense. Ninjas and WARs apply the slashing debuff FAR earlier than a SAM possibly could outside of Meikyo Shisui, and if a SAM chooses to use their opener to get a slashing debuff up, that hurts their overall rotation. SAM is literally pure pDPS...they don't really have raid utility in the same sense that the other DPS classes do. Even BLM can provide utility, like mana shift. I know that with WARs, on an optimized rotation, their literal second skill, Maim, applies a slashing debuff.

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That's taken out of context. Probably on me, it's alright.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Bard and Machinist not having access to Division despite generating the highest enmity by far. Likewise, both being the only jobs entirely dependent on another (Dragoon) to increase their damage.

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For Bard, "Raging Strikes" doesn't count? Sure it's on a long cooldown, but it is 10%.

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Originally Posted by Tint

it's true, you can't compare stoneskin and benison that easily. they are different skills with different purposes. however, if i had to choose i would always take benison.

it's not stoneskin - but it's by far the better skill (at least after they removed the lily requirement)

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I'd rather stoneskin, if just for Eureka. One of the worst things this game is doing is not allowing for many abilities to go beyond your party, and it really cramps the game up.

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Originally Posted by Makeda

For Bard, "Raging Strikes" doesn't count? Sure it's on a long cooldown, but it is 10%.

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Raging Strikes is on an 80 second cooldown. But again, it’s not the same as Disembowel—Disembowel is +5% damage at 100% uptime during any given fight. It automatically outweighs Raging Strikes. By a long shot.

Here’s an example: during my current best parse of the tier (Demon Chadarnook, 9:22), I used Raging Strikes 7 times. At 20 seconds duration, that’s 140 seconds of +10% damage. Compare that to Disembowel...at +5% damage for 9 minutes and 22 seconds. Again, Disembowel outweighs Raging Strikes by a long shot. No other job has that sort of dependency. I lose ~400 DPS outright by just not having a DRG.

Why is using that slightly-off shade of white for certain dungeon drops still a thing? I get why they'd use it for dyeable gear (so we buy the pure white dyes from the Mog Station) but on undyeable gear it just makes it hard to colour match.

Non-FFXIV-related: The 1000-character initial post limit here on the forum. Seriously, why in the fuck is this still a thing?

FFXIV-related: The utter lack of difficult 4-person content. People have been asking for it since ARR released. Why is the lack still a thing? And no, Yoshi-P making bullshit excuses about gotcha-style difficulty doesn't count. There has been plenty of 8-person content in which a single death spells doom. I fail to see why such challenges can't be shifted to 4-person content.

Phoenix Down...

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I lose ~400 DPS outright by just not having a DRG.

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You don't lose anything, the raid loses 400 DPS on you by not having a DRG paired with you. That's the definition of raid utility.

If you weren't there, the raid would also lose what you offer as utility.

Why cant we still not be friends with our alts? It would be great if we have our alts in the list from the very beginning. Its completely annoying to have them join the FC since the alt need to be online to get a friend request and a FC invitation. We pay more to play with alts so it would be nice to have it a bit more comfortable with that too.

Beast tribe daily limit. We're already limited by individual tribe limits. Just makes it really tedious to catch up with more and more tribes being added.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Raging Strikes is on an 80 second cooldown. But again, it’s not the same as Disembowel—Disembowel is +5% damage at 100% uptime during any given fight. It automatically outweighs Raging Strikes. By a long shot.

Here’s an example: during my current best parse of the tier (Demon Chadarnook, 9:22), I used Raging Strikes 7 times. At 20 seconds duration, that’s 140 seconds of +10% damage. Compare that to Disembowel...at +5% damage for 9 minutes and 22 seconds. Again, Disembowel outweighs Raging Strikes by a long shot. No other job has that sort of dependency. I lose ~400 DPS outright by just not having a DRG.

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Maybe I don't quite understand how the 5% is applied, but if it's effectively a 5% flat damage buff, that would mean you would have to do 8,000 dps to lose 400. it seems you're more likely to lose about 200-250 (4000-5000dps).

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Originally Posted by Vhailor

FFXIV-related: The utter lack of difficult 4-person content. People have been asking for it since ARR released. Why is the lack still a thing? And no, Yoshi-P making bullshit excuses about gotcha-style difficulty doesn't count. There has been plenty of 8-person content in which a single death spells doom. I fail to see why such challenges can't be shifted to 4-person content.

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Play Feast. That is hard 4 man content. It shows that the biggest problem is finding enough healers that can survive the mode, because in hard 4 man content, the burden is highest on healers. Tanks in particular really are incredibly easy in most content, with a lot of the issue mostly being tank swaps; the fact that they had to buff diversion to stupid levels shows how little they can adapt. You literally have only so many cooldowns. DPS can't really do much different than they do in easy content. Most of the hardness would be on the healing end, and not many healers really like that.

Why are mats that are not used in anything still in the game? Like the red crab shells.

Dunno if this has been posted but...Why can't I sell or throw away multiple items ? Selecting them one by one and doing the procedure every time is a pain.

Why is this still a thing ?

For the love of Thaliak, give me checkboxes or some way to delete multiple mails at once. Or, better yet, do what SWtOR does and auto-delete any letters that have no text beyond Delivery, and no items attached. Or - let me go out on a limb here - how about both?

The engine not being able to handle multiple things at once. In a gear vendor but can't throw away gear or open any other window.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Stoneskin has a much longer duration, can be applied out of combat, and had an aoe form that could be used prepull. It also can be used on someone outside your party. Benison is not superior, not by a longshot.

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Benison is a more powerful shield with no cast time costing no MP.
Stoneskin was a slow cast, smaller shield, costing lots of MP.

Out of combat shielding was worth removing, because the first party wide AoE takes it off and taking 24 seconds in combat to reapply it to the entire party is silly. It doesn't matter how long it lasts when Benison lasts more than long enough to eat whatever mechanic is incoming anyway.

The idea that being forced to stand still for 3s to spend significant MP for a weaker shield is BETTER is... something.

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Originally Posted by ImDingDing

It punishes death in battle.

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It punishes the healer by making them take a role skill they'll never use unless someone else dies, on top of having to raise them? Yay?

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Play Feast. That is hard 4 man content. It shows that the biggest problem is finding enough healers that can survive the mode, because in hard 4 man content, the burden is highest on healers. Tanks in particular really are incredibly easy in most content, with a lot of the issue mostly being tank swaps; the fact that they had to buff diversion to stupid levels shows how little they can adapt. You literally have only so many cooldowns. DPS can't really do much different than they do in easy content. Most of the hardness would be on the healing end, and not many healers really like that.

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The Feast is PvP. In a PvE-focused game, in my opinion, that simply doesn't count. PvP, by its very nature, is always difficult; SE doesn't need to do anything really to make PvP content difficult. What I'd like to see is difficult PvE content. Palace of the Dead, which I admittedly forgot about, offers some of this - but it's the only example, it's quite dated at this point in time, and very much requires a significant time investment before difficult stuff begins (since we can't start right at Floor 151, for example).

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

The engine not being able to handle multiple things at once. In a gear vendor but can't throw away gear or open any other window.

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Holy crap this. Especially Triple Triad, since unlike gear vendors, one often spends several minutes in a row playing TT with an NPC.

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Originally Posted by AxHell

Dunno if this has been posted but...Why can't I sell or throw away multiple items ? Selecting them one by one and doing the procedure every time is a pain.

Why is this still a thing ?

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At the NPC sell menu it's just one click to sell per item/stack on gamepad.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You don't lose anything, the raid loses 400 DPS on you by not having a DRG paired with you. That's the definition of raid utility.

If you weren't there, the raid would also lose what you offer as utility.

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That's being pedantic. Piercing personally buffs physical range, thus they do lose that chunk of damage, which causes the rdps to decline. The point remains no job is utterly dependent on one for a sizable boost to their damage except Bard and Machinist. It's simply poor design when slashing can be applied by three jobs yet piercing is Dragoon only. And it remains why the physical meta has dominated since Creator.

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Originally Posted by GunksFoy

Maybe I don't quite understand how the 5% is applied, but if it's effectively a 5% flat damage buff, that would mean you would have to do 8,000 dps to lose 400. it seems you're more likely to lose about 200-250 (4000-5000dps).

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I suspect those calculations include everything Dragoon offers, which actually pushes the loss higher; 500ish. Disembowel alone roughly accounts for 250-300 though, yes.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You don't lose anything, the raid loses 400 DPS on you by not having a DRG paired with you. That's the definition of raid utility.

If you weren't there, the raid would also lose what you offer as utility.

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Actually, BRD/MCH do lose something—personal damage. Both the raid and physical ranged lose out on damage; the only difference is the BRD/MCH is personal DPS, the raid is rDPS. DRG’s piercing directly affects BRD/MCH personal damage output in ways that no other DPS is effected. They lose 250~300 personal DPS without Disembowel. The raid, in turn, loses the same amount of rDPS that BRD/MCH lose in personal DPS. Again, no other DPS is dependent like they are. And no other rBuff gives 250~300 to a single job like Disembowel does to BRD/MCH. Not even Trick Attack.

For some insight, I looked at the rDPS calculator of my 5753 parse, and the breakdown of buffs that benefited me were as follows:

—Disembowel: 260.4
—Battle Litany: 48.6
—Dragon Sight: 57.1
—Balance: 57.1
—Spear: 12.6
—Chain Strategem: 45.5
—Trick Attack: 94.7
—Embolden (5-4-3-2-1): 19.9-21.8-13.9-5.5-4.0

No other buff benefits BRD/MCH like Disembowel does. No other DPS is so entirely dependent on another job either in order to reach its potential personal damage.

And sure, BRD offers an immense amount of utility in their passive crit buff, Foe’s, and Battle Voice. But Disembowel still gives more to a BRD than any one of their raid buffs alone does to the entire raid. Same for other rBuffs like Trick Attack. And this, again, goes back to what I’ve been saying: no other DPS job is as dependent on another in terms of personal potential than BRD/MCH are on DRG.
Honestly, I think MCH suffers more without a DRG than BRD, because at least BRDs have their DoTs, which aren’t affected by piercing with regards to their ticks.

The “raid utility” of Disembowel is the reason the physical meta has been the meta since Creator. Not even the 5% nerf to it stopped it. Take away piercing or give to to another DPS/BRD or MCH, and the meta of DRG/BRD/MCH breaks because there are more options; or because BRD/MCH no longer have to rely on getting a portion of their personal damage from another job (in the event piercing is just removed entirely).

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Originally Posted by GunksFoy

Maybe I don't quite understand how the 5% is applied, but if it's effectively a 5% flat damage buff, that would mean you would have to do 8,000 dps to lose 400. it seems you're more likely to lose about 200-250 (4000-5000dps).

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The ~400 I mentioned is with regards to losing the entirety of a DRG’s toolkit. That being said, Disembowel makes up the majority of that ~400.

Class system. They should revamp it, allowing to chose any job at the start, it reeeeeaally sucks to play all the MSQ 1~50 (285 quests) just to be able to play the job I want (RDM/MCH/DRK/AST/SAM).

Also, 285 msq quests from 1 to 50, there's so much filler...

Also, the non voice acted msq cutscenes... It's very big turn down for any player. Sometimes we get voice acting, and sometimes not, why? This is not the most succefull MMO game? Even WoW and many F2P has voice acting, much more than FFXIV. I'm asking only for the MSQ, even the non cutscene texts. Side quest is ok to not have. My friends skip all the non voice acted cutscenes, and it annoys me SE not giving proper love to the story telling.

You can be rdm or sam once you hit 50 so that's not the whole msq. There was the voice actors strike to deal with and then Yoshida got told not to do anymore spendy cut scenes after a certain one from T12. Then there's at least four different languages you have to hire va's for. I'm not sure how it is for WoW or other F2P games in the number of other languages they do the va for. I also don't know how long after the woman who did do Yugiri's voice they took before finding a new person after her death. There is also the change to the cast somewhere around 2.55 and HW which again must have taken time and money.

@FATE music toggle off option... for the love of the Twelve

@Firework effects or mount abilities effects are still thrown in the same box as battle effects. These really need to be separated

@Other people' crafting flashy effects - wish we could disable those.

@Glare - you can turn it off technically.. yet there are many weapon pieces than glare even when I have that option off.

@There's generally a need to have more customization when it comes to flashy effects.

@The sound when you level up or when you complete a quest or join fate is thrown together with BGM sound setting rather than sound effects. I like to enjoy my music and have sounds effects turned down to the minimum but I just can't avoid that one obnoxious sound whenever I level up or complete a quest.

@I can hear fish biting other people' bait and it's very misleading and forces me to avoid/move away from other people while I fish which is not the kind of attitude I like to have in a mmo. I love to be around other people. We really should only hear our own fish bites.

@Optimize music volume. Battle, mounts and fate music are still way louder than regular BGMs. I constantly have to change my volume throughout a dungeon run.

@If you play using a gamepad, when you have retainer out and you try to toggle between inventories or markets menu, you toggle between all UI elements. When retainer is out it should only toggle between you inventory/armoury chest and retainer menu. Other UI elements should be ignored when dealing with retainer. I understand some people might like it but we should have an option in settings. Personally I find it frustrating whenever I toggle between menus and I have to do it a couple times or hit "cancel" to get back to where I want it to be.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

The point remains no job is utterly dependent on one for a sizable boost to their damage except Bard and Machinist.

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Do you realize how many jobs could be considered dependent on BRD's damage boost by that same logic ?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

And no other rBuff gives 250~300 to a single job like Disembowel does to BRD/MCH. Not even Trick Attack.

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It doesn't matter how much disenbowel give to a single job. What matters is how much it gives to the raid. Do you have some calculation on how much Foe's Requiem and Battle Voice give to the raid, considering everyone benefit from it ?

I think there's an app that calculates rdps, but can't remember the name of it

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Do you realize how many jobs could be considered dependent on BRD's damage boost by that same logic ?

It doesn't matter how much disenbowel give to a single job. What matters is how much it gives to the raid. Do you have some calculation on how much Foe's Requiem and Battle Voice give to the raid, considering everyone benefit from it ?

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It absolutely matters how much disembowel gives to a single job because there is no other true class dependance that comes close to the way BRD and MCH depend on DRG. No other single buff from another player does more for any job. Even Trick Attack (aka the god of raid buffs) represents around a third of the personal dps gain from Disembowel.


Imagine if you played on a dps that lost 5% of your personal damage unless a BLM was in the party. Any party you're joining or raid group you consider you have to think about this first - do they have a BLM? If not are you willing to lose that much dps off the top guaranteed? These are questions no one but BRD and MCH have to answer right now.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The ~400 I mentioned is with regards to losing the entirety of a DRG’s toolkit. That being said, Disembowel makes up the majority of that ~400.

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This seems intentionally disingenuous though. Dragoon would still retain those abilities, so while what you're saying is technically accurate, you would still lose 150-200 dps not having a dragoon even if they gave you a piercing debuff. I don't really have a stance on this, but it definitely seems like you're trying to deceive people by inflating the number you claim to lose by not having it.

Again, I don't really have a stance as I like the idea of job synergy but don't like the idea of job exclusion. I feel like it would be more acceptable if there were certain group types that worked well together. I.e. Brd, Mch, Caster, Drg OR Monk, Sam, Caster, Caster. You get what I mean. But then you end up with meta comps and even more group exclusion. Balance is a finicky thing.

Blizzard 2 /10char

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

Also, 285 msq quests from 1 to 50, there's so much filler...

Also, the non voice acted msq cutscenes... It's very big turn down for any player. Sometimes we get voice acting, and sometimes not, why? This is not the most succefull MMO game? Even WoW and many F2P has voice acting, much more than FFXIV. I'm asking only for the MSQ, even the non cutscene texts. Side quest is ok to not have. My friends skip all the non voice acted cutscenes, and it annoys me SE not giving proper love to the story telling.

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Honestly, most of the story cutscenes are voiced. And it's my understanding that WoW has a significantly larger budget than FFXIV. And like someone else said, 4 languages, a metric fuckton of story quests to voice. It would be expensive. And they trimmed a good deal of the filler quests between 1 and 50. It's not nearly as bad now.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Do you realize how many jobs could be considered dependent on BRD's damage boost by that same logic ?

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Please, tell me specifically what job offers another job a 5% dps increase with near 100% uptime.

EDIT: Before you answer "Slashing" let me amend:

What job offers another job 5% dps increase with near 100% uptime that they cannot apply themselves? Paladin and Dark Knight share in this problem, true, but the situation would be more similar if WAR was the only job that applied slashing debuff.

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It doesn't matter how much disenbowel give to a single job. What matters is how much it gives to the raid. Do you have some calculation on how much Foe's Requiem and Battle Voice give to the raid, considering everyone benefit from it ?

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Piercing gives nothing to the raid. It gives 5% damage boost to two jobs in particular. In the meta, with both BRD and MCH, DRG's rDPS outdoes NIN's rDPS, all while DRG still outdoes NIN in pDPS. At the moment DRG is actually one of the strongest rDPS jobs in the game because of the meta.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Do you realize how many jobs could be considered dependent on BRD's damage boost by that same logic ?

It doesn't matter how much disenbowel give to a single job. What matters is how much it gives to the raid. Do you have some calculation on how much Foe's Requiem and Battle Voice give to the raid, considering everyone benefit from it ?

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I do, actually. In the same parse I am referencing, Foe’s gave the raid (8 people) 198.8 additional DPS. Battle Voice gave 118.4. Those values are the for entire raid. Disembowel’s value (260.4) was for 1 job. Looking at individual values (per party member) of how much Foe’s and BV gave them are even lower (the DRG got 41.3 from Foe’s, 32.4 from BV; the NIN 44.9 from Foe’s, 26.2 from BV; to use two examples).

Disembowel buffs 2 jobs (BRD/MCH) outside of the DRG that applies it. It doesn’t buff the entire raid in terms of individual damage. There’s a difference between a buff like Disembowel and a buff like Battle Voice or Foe’s or Trick Attack.

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Originally Posted by GunksFoy

This seems intentionally disingenuous though. Dragoon would still retain those abilities, so while what you're saying is technically accurate, you would still lose 150-200 dps not having a dragoon even if they gave you a piercing debuff. I don't really have a stance on this, but it definitely seems like you're trying to deceive people by inflating the number you claim to lose by not having it.

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I’m sorry, but excuse me? I’m trying to deceive people by inflating numbers?

I think most BRDs and MCHs alive would tell you that they lose quite a bit by not having a DRG. Keep in mind that I am not an orange-tier BRD. I’m actually pretty average; the 90th percentile Chadarnook I’m referencing throughout this debate is my best run of the tier, and I haven’t beat it. So better BRDs than me will lose much more than ~400 from Disembowel/Litany/Dragon Sight (if they receive it), and ~260 from Disembowel.

For comparison, I looked at a 99th percentile BRD parse on Demon Chadarnook where the BRD got 300 DPS from Disembowel. That’s more than my 260 because they’re a better BRD than I am. They also got more from Litany than I did, and about the same from Dragon Sight, though they received the latter only twice throughout the fight, where as I had it 5 times.

Taking another log from a BRD that is currently #3 in terms of ranking on God Kefka—for their Chadarnook (7012 personal DPS), they go 327.6 from Disembowel alone; Litany gave them 119.9, Dragon Sight 64.8. For their God Kefka (6679 personal DPS), they got 311.8 from Disembowel, 98.8 from Litany, 71.6 from Dragon Sight.

A better BRD than me is going to lose more than I did. I only used myself as an example to illustrate my point that BRD/MCH are more dependent on Disembowel than people seem to realize.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

I think there's an app that calculates rdps, but can't remember the name of it

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Yes, this is the site people use to calculate rDPS: http://xivrdps.herokuapp.com/

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Originally Posted by SannaR

You can be rdm or sam once you hit 50 so that's not the whole msq. There was the voice actors strike to deal with and then Yoshida got told not to do anymore spendy cut scenes after a certain one from T12. Then there's at least four different languages you have to hire va's for. I'm not sure how it is for WoW or other F2P games in the number of other languages they do the va for. I also don't know how long after the woman who did do Yugiri's voice they took before finding a new person after her death. There is also the change to the cast somewhere around 2.55 and HW which again must have taken time and money.

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I mean MSQ from 1 to 50, there's 285.
T12 is not MSQ. I'm asking to do Voice acting in the MSQ, from now on. They reduced significantly the quantity of MSQ since 50+. But still, players still need to complete 1 to 70 MSQ, and 1~50 MSQ does not reflect FFXIV 2018.

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Originally Posted by GunksFoy

Honestly, most of the story cutscenes are voiced. And it's my understanding that WoW has a significantly larger budget than FFXIV. And like someone else said, 4 languages, a metric fuckton of story quests to voice. It would be expensive. And they trimmed a good deal of the filler quests between 1 and 50. It's not nearly as bad now.

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Most of the MSQ cutscenes are NOT voiced. I remember all the reading that I've done. "Significant larger budget", man, voice actors are not bilionaire, there's a lot of voice actors, SE does not need to put George Newbern for every MSQ character. I'm asking only to fully voice act the cutscenes of MSQ, it's not that expensive as doing the sidequests too. And it does not matter how much MSQ they trimmed if we still need to complete them, only a revamp and removal of the filler ones would matter.

Most of my friends mentaly are: No voice? Then it's worth skiping. If even the Devs decided to not voice act this cutscene, that's just because it isn't worth the investiment, so not wirth my time then = skip.

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

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IIRC, the "massively larger budget" was shown to be a fan theory, not fact. But I've been gone from the game for awhile so that may have been validated. I would be interested to see proof of that though. And maybe not for 2.x, but most of 4.0 was voiced. They are not going to retroactively voice cutscenes, that's an asinine waste of money. That is a silly mentality for your friends. Every cutscene is at least mildly important to the story. How did they even survive gaming before every cutscene was voiced. Do they even play any game besides this one and massive budget triple A titles? I assume they can read, and reading a dozen or so lines of text every now and then is not a great imposition. Would it be great if every cutscene was voiced? Sure. Is it necessary to spend that kind of money on it compared to developing content? Not in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

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Not trying to offend you, just giving you an outside perspective. And you yourself just said that even the best bards only get ~330 dps from it, making your 400 number high for even the best. Yes, all that dps came from the Dragoon, but Disembowel is your complaint. Dragoon is not losing the other skills in your proposal, so it's disingenuous to claim you "lose 400+ dps from 1 buff". Take away Disembowel, Dragoon falls out of meta, you still lose ~150 dps (based on your own numbers, ~400 loss, ~260 from Disembowel) plus more from other party members. Besides that, someone else said "caster dps is different because it's calculated before bard/mch buffs", and I seriously doubt SE tuned Bard/Mch to be gated behind a Dragoon in the party. Are raids unclearable for you without a Dragoon in the group? If not, then the dragoon dps is icing on the cake and not mandatory. Just my opinion, but it seems that there isn't an issue here.

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

If even the Devs decided to not voice act this cutscene, that's just because it isn't worth the investiment, so not wirth my time then = skip.

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that's not entirely correct. money may play a role... but they answered to a question regarding voice acting in a live letter back in 2014. that was about hildibrand quests, but i guess it's mostly true for other cut scenes as well:

they are working on the scenes until short before the patch releases and simply don't have the time to voice act them (in all the different languages).

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ce#post2018791 (the word "voice" is highlighted, just scroll down and you will find it)

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Originally Posted by GunksFoy

Take away Disembowel, Dragoon falls out of meta, you still lose ~150 dps (based on your own numbers, ~400 loss, ~260 from Disembowel) plus more from other party members. Besides that, someone else said "caster dps is different because it's calculated before bard/mch buffs", and I seriously doubt SE tuned Bard/Mch to be gated behind a Dragoon in the party. Are raids unclearable for you without a Dragoon in the group? If not, then the dragoon dps is icing on the cake and not mandatory. Just my opinion, but it seems that there isn't an issue here.

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Actually, no. The loss of Litany is somewhat mitigated by Trick Attack or Brotherhood since you will at least one of those; possibly both. Disembowel has no such alternative. You simply lose 250+ DPS because a Dragoon wasn't present. Slashing, meanwhile, can be applied by three jobs spanning two roles. It's far less likely a group will lack Warrior, Ninja and Samurai. Making only one job benefit two others to this extent is simply poor design, and why so many statics prioritize Dragoon.

And no one said they were mandatory. That doesn't make it feel good knowing you're inherently gimped because a group decided to run Ninja/Samurai. Plenty of people participate in Savage for reasons beyond just clearing each week. The Bard in my static doesn't chase fflogs, however she still felt better seeing her numbers jump last tier when I switched from Samurai to Dragoon. It basically comes down to no job should be dependent on only one other job for a good chunk of its buffs. Paladin has three options to provide it Slashing. Bard has one.

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Originally Posted by Shouko

PS2 limitations...this game never ran on the PS2, unless you meant the PS3 but that ended a while ago.

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it's a meme based on ffxi, i did mean ps2 limitations.

it pokes fun at there is always something limiting them in why they can't do x.
(I/e they recently said win 32 limitations on something, though with inventory display it did sound legit and explained they could add an option to display the full 140 for win 64) < this just giving an example on where it comes from, because in ffxi it was the excuse to everything.

I thought it would been obvious there was a joke here when i said the FORUMS is being limited by the ps2.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

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I mean, you could have all Brotherhood, Trick, and Litany all at once as a Bard/Mch, however unlikely. Those skills do different things. I agree there could certainly be another class that has it, but I don't necessarily think Bard AND Machinist should get it. Giving it to all of them either pushes Dragoon out of the meta, increases it's dps, or makes it unfair to the jobs that don't have a slashing debuff. It's all a conundrum. What would be better imo, would be adding a new job in 5.0 with a piercing debuff (or do away with them entirely). Give some variety. Could even give Rdm a piercing debuff to compensate for it's relatively low dps, though they already have massive appeal in progression raiding.

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Originally Posted by GunksFoy

I mean, you could have all Brotherhood, Trick, and Litany all at once as a Bard/Mch, however unlikely. Those skills do different things. I agree there could certainly be another class that has it, but I don't necessarily think Bard AND Machinist should get it. Giving it to all of them either pushes Dragoon out of the meta, increases it's dps, or makes it unfair to the jobs that don't have a slashing debuff. It's all a conundrum. What would be better imo, would be adding a new job in 5.0 with a piercing debuff (or do away with them entirely). Give some variety. Could even give Rdm a piercing debuff to compensate for it's relatively low dps, though they already have massive appeal in progression raiding.

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DRG losing Disembowel would put it on level with MNK and NIN for buffs given. If that drives it out of the meta, that just speaks to how OP Piercing is as a buff.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

DRG losing Disembowel would put it on level with MNK and NIN for buffs given. If that drives it out of the meta, that just speaks to how OP Piercing is as a buff.

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Not really. Monk is at the top of the DPS charts, so its low utility is understandable. Ninja does have very low dps, but very good utility. Trick Attack is definitely better than Litany or Sight, primarily because it can be used twice between Sights and 3 times between Litany. They also have other prized utility. There's a reason so many people want ninjas. Dragoon losing it's piercing debuff would mean it either needs higher dps, or a different utility to replace it.