Please Buff Tenacity So Tanks Actually Want To Use Tank Stance

How is this thread 8 pages? Should have been over as soon as this guy said this:

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

If you buff tenacity it only makes tank stance less useful.

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Originally Posted by shao32

bcs is a bad desing? if you think like that then why all the warriors have the right to ask for a change on shake it off in the first place? or sole survivor on DRK? or any other situational skill in the game? tank stances have less use and utility that those skills, are working as a simple emity buff on pulls, for that they can just delete tank stances and make a 30 seconds emity buff with damage reduction every 60-90 seconds and all happy.

why we have to dealt with high cost tank stance on DRK how technically dont offer nothing to my gameplay as a tank and WAR having extremly unnecesary skill on defiance aka innerbeast and unchained wasting space? for rookies? are you kidding me?
are you come and say tanking on tank stance is more boring when its dont change nothing of what you do on DRK and PLD? much worse making WAR skills wasting space.
tank stances need to be there for main tanking or being remove but dont keep this middle ground, we want better sinergy on it, being a benefc not being a drag aka better sinergy with all our skills.

plus the actual status already make sociial isues when one tank choose stay on it or not we all already see this.

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That post is really hard to understand. I don't even know if Im following you at this point.

All I got from that is:
* Its a bad design (tank stance). Care to elaborate?
* Somehow saying tank stances have less use and utility than skill (shake it off) that literally did not work outside of dungeons. Wut.
* Complain that Grit is highest cost tank stance that 'don't offer nothing'. War has 'unnecessary' skills like IB unchained. Not following. I use those things all the time.
* Tank stance is for rookies? That is ONE of multiple functions it serves. Yes. Having underrepresented, but necessary jobs like tanks DO need to be rookie friendly. Enjoy your hour long DPS cues if tanking is 'to hard'. Even 'good' tanks still use tank stance fairly often. Only people that NEVER use tank stance in raids are the speed running 1%. People act like avg joe tank never uses stance just because some elite speed runners don't for damage purposes.
* (I say) Tanking in tank stance is boring when it changes nothing. Clarification. I didn't say tanking in tank stance is boring. I said only having 1 stance to use is boring. Removing choices becomes more boring. For example: Forcing everyone to use tank stance regardless of if they want or even need to.
* It makes social issues. (Assuming you mean the 'dps' tanks that die all the time trying to be pro). Overblown. With the removal of str accessories, this is not nearly as big an issue as it used to be.

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Originally Posted by Aana

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i make it easy then.

- tank stances on PLD and DRK dont offer nothing on gameplay level, you "sense of choice" is a ghost empty feeling there, are just a binary switch and there no exist stance dance anymore bcs we stay in dps stance 99,9% of the time, its a bad desing bcs the stances are not worthy of the price in none of the 3 tanks by miles, more on one that the others, in this game we dealt dps and not a small amout, and the price of tank stances are just to expensive, they will work a lot better being a net buff when you MT on emity and mitigation with they respective cost of switching and giving us a real stance dancing gameplay when we switch on bosses (remember this only on DRK and PLD, WAR come now).

- comunity make innerbeast useless, the skill is a dps loss in all sense, any good WAR know that, and technically you dont need it at all to survive, there is no scenario where you need innerbeast, i run dungeons with my WAR sometimes and i never use innerbeast, its just unnecesary, steelciclone works a lot better on packs and on bosses i have a huge arsenal to mitigate, and i dont see anyone want to improve defiance gameplay to have really a more deep rotation with war, i will put you a example: with no damage penalty and for example reduce innerbeast gauge cost to 30 (300 potency= 30 cost compared to 500 potency=50 from fell cleave) will encourage WARs to switch more to use inner beast without being a dps lose, in other words being usefull (meaby nerf the damage reduction to a 10% to compensate)and use Upheaval with head and not just a ofgc more and this will be more interesting that just sitting on deliverance spaming fellcleaves.

- last one tank stances and rookies, remove tank stance damage penalty (yes is my favourite change bcs dont make blue dps angry) dont means change nothing to a conten level, in fact it will make it more friendly, its just like now but dealing more dps on tank stance, this dont make anything more harder to anyone, less for raiders, its been prove hundreds of times tank stances just make you have a bit more of HP when you get a tank buster at the cost of a lot dps, its a necesary Qol change.

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Originally Posted by shao32

i make it easy then.

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im not really sure why u are so much obsessed with "dps" , a tanks role has always been to suck up dmg not doing alot of dmg ^^

theres needs to be a difference between dps , tanks and healers gameplaywise.

our usefullnes is to keep aggro and add some dps to the groups overall dps. not doing as much dps as a dps class :P

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

im not really sure why u are so much obsessed with "dps" , a tanks role has always been to suck up dmg not doing alot of dmg ^^

theres needs to be a difference between dps , tanks and healers gameplaywise.

our usefullnes is to keep aggro and add some dps to the groups overall dps. not doing as much dps as a dps class :P

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uh? im not dps obsessed, my personal opinion about this i find pretty lame the way we are just playing right now, i want tank stances being optimal bcs i dont like sacrifice my defense for ofense in all tanks, due the high benefics to tanking in dps stance are pretty clear y just want tank stances being relevant and not just a emity buff at the begining of the combat, how the do it i dont care, but i want tank stances being necesary for tanking.

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

im not really sure why u are so much obsessed with "dps" , a tanks role has always been to suck up dmg not doing alot of dmg ^^

theres needs to be a difference between dps , tanks and healers gameplaywise.

our usefullnes is to keep aggro and add some dps to the groups overall dps. not doing as much dps as a dps class :P

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*cough* HW War *cough*

More seriously, dps in FF is really important. You've an enrage, and if a dps sucks, tanks can make the difference.
Btw, all not fights need two tanks. At this moment, the "OT" can make a lot of dps.
More: during HW, all jobs mech seemed to have been created to make the more dps as possible.

And, last thing: when you're a tank, you don't have a complex rotation as dps has. So, except the tanking stuff like enmity, what do you have to do except dps?

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

im not really sure why u are so much obsessed with "dps" , a tanks role has always been to suck up dmg not doing alot of dmg ^^

theres needs to be a difference between dps , tanks and healers gameplaywise.

our usefullnes is to keep aggro and add some dps to the groups overall dps. not doing as much dps as a dps class :P

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You don't really know how tanking in xiv works. Everyone in this game focuses on dps, not just dps. It's all about pushing out as much personal dps as you can do while simultaneously achieving your own responsibilities as a tank, which involves:

1. Managing aggro through shirk to let you stay in dps stance
2. Mitigating as much damage as efficiently as possible to let your healers do as much dps as they can do
3. Positioning the boss appropriately to help your dps do as much as they can

It's a group effort, and everyone helps out with dps. Not just the dps.

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Originally Posted by shao32

but i want tank stances being necesary for tanking.

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What about what I want? Maybe this design choice isn't what I want and I would like the OPTION to not feel like I'm required to be in one stance only. I'm okay with using tank stance for prog and optimizing DPS afterwards, that feels rewarding for knowing how to better use my abilities to minimize damage WITHOUT the need for tank stance. It's a difference in play style we have, and I agree that tanks should not feel like "Use tank stance until you don't need it" but being forced into a stance doesn't solve that problem.

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Originally Posted by Crizhalid

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we already forced to be in dps stance to play optimal, whats the diference? i just suggesting to remove only damage penalty to make tank stances usefull, that dont change our rotations, and we will dont need a ninja to play at our maximun performance, so its a quality of life dont depend so much from others to play our job properly like the other 12 jobs in the game do.

so im curious why some "specially warriors" dont like this idea but some agreed tank stances are bad, some say they like have the "option", yeah that non-exist thing for every decent tank, even one say he dont want the damage pentalty being removed bcs everyone will match he DPS, so yeah its so terrible every tank how dont have they own ninja and perfect-proper healers can be able to play they jobs properly like any good tank without fear right?.

when the change i offer up there making special focus on some minor WAR changes, just offer more options on the table when MT with defiance and deliverance, so every warrior will have real options when using deliverance and defiance, but i just see they want to just stuck in deliverance and fell cleave to everyone who want to change that.

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Originally Posted by shao32

we already forced to be in dps stance to play optimal, whats the diference? i just suggesting to remove only damage penalty to make tank stances usefull, that dont change our rotations, and we will dont need a ninja to play at our maximun performance, so its a quality of life dont depend so much from others to play our job properly like the other 12 jobs in the game do.

so im curious why some "specially warriors" dont like this idea but some agreed tank stances are bad, some say they like have the "option", yeah that non-exist thing for every decent tank, even one say he dont want the damage pentalty being removed bcs everyone will match he DPS, so yeah its so terrible every tank how dont have they own ninja and perfect-proper healers can be able to play they jobs properly like any good tank without fear right?.

when the change i offer up there making special focus on some minor WAR changes, just offer more options on the table when MT with defiance and deliverance, so every warrior will have real options when using deliverance and defiance, but i just see they want to just stuck in deliverance and fell cleave to everyone who want to change that.

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It wouldn't change anything though. As long as being in dps stance gives tanks a significant boost to tank dps over being in tank stance, tanks will continue to sit in dps stance over tank stance as much as possible. And I suggest hanging up this weird bias you have against warriors-my "main class" here might say warrior (and I do raid on warrior), but I play all three tanks pretty equally. I've been especially liking paladin recently.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

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remove damage penalty Will make we dealt almost the same dps on tank stance, i just add extra change on war bcs they dps loss come from innerbeast too, so thats why i reduce the gauge cost, i dont see any problem there

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Originally Posted by shao32

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I don't think removing the damage penalty solves anything, nor do you *need* a NIN to clear the runs. Optimization is what it is, and those who can't should fall back on things like tank stance if needed, but should also be penalized for needing this assistance.

I don't understand why you're bringing up "specially warriors" to me, if it's as Hruodig says I hope you're not implying that my roleplaying class is my main raiding job.

Tanking has never worked as intended in this game. Which is why the devs eventually gave up and started adding are to tank gear. And accepting there dps mentality.

The problem has always been encounter design and unless that changes tanks will always be the same.

There's 2 things here. 1 every encounter is highly predictable and incredibly scripted. You cmpretty much know the tank will eat a tank buster at 30 seconds. Another at 60 seconds. Another at 90 seconds and so on. Between these times the only thing hitting them is basically auto attacks. With damage being that predictable there's really no reason to be defensive.

The second thing is those tank busters also have to be survivable by every tank which limits the amount of damage they can do in the first place. And also means some cooldowns are kinda borked. Seminal for example nothing needs 40% mitigation ever because if it did war and dark would be screwed best they got is 30%

You also can't build around shields because there's no guarantee your party will have them.

If you want to make tank stance more viable you need to change the core of encounter design and randomize it a lot. Make the incoming damage a lot less predictable. And make it hit a lot harder. Create the possibility of 2 maybe even 3 tank buster back to back and suddenly cooldowns alone won't be enough. Because you won't have any available and you won't know what will hit you next.

In the current design though it's simply obsolete. Because everything is so scripted and predictable. That you can be shielded excogd and have a cooldown available for every single tank buster. There's rarely any need for a defensive stance outside of it's enmity boost.

Tanking has never worked as intended. Paladin is a good source of proof for that.. it was always meant to be the defensive fortress style tank but it never worked because balance meant that warrior had to be able to survive every hit a paladin could any defence on top of that was never needed so warriors were preferred for the extra offence as extra defence just wasn't needed.

In a way same with healers and why whm spent so much time on the back bench. Because sch and ast both had to be capable of healing enough to clear content and thus all the extra healing power a whm had just wanst necessary. Best to chose extra offence instead of even more healing power that you don't need.

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Originally Posted by Crizhalid

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so you say i have to dealt with it huh? i dont have a ninja in my raid team so i have to drop all my potential bcs of that its that so? want to keep our trash stances? lets keep our trash stances, if you dont want to improve it to make it better its ok, but is clearly you dont understand the point.

its not about dont need or need a NIN to clear runs or good healers, is being more independent of both, thats what make remove tank stance damage penalty, tank stances and actual tanks interacting with bosses dont match at all, i want better sinergy on that, and not being punish so bad bcs i dont have X job in my team, basicly how punishing was play NIN in HW when you dont have a WAR in you team.

tank stances loose all they purpose now for raiders, whats the point on keep it like that?

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Originally Posted by shao32

so you say i have to dealt with it huh? i dont have a ninja in my raid team so i have to drop all my potential bcs of that its that so? want to keep our trash stances? lets keep our trash stances, if you dont want to improve it to make it better its ok, but is clearly you dont understand the point.

its not about dont need or need a NIN to clear runs or good healers, is being more independent of both, thats what make remove tank stance damage penalty, tank stances and actual tanks interacting with bosses dont match at all, i want better sinergy on that, and not being punish so bad bcs i dont have X job in my team, basicly how punishing was play NIN in HW when you dont have a WAR in you team.

tank stances loose all they purpose now for raiders, whats the point on keep it like that?

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How tank stance interacts with bosses is dependent on how the fight is designed. Addressing that sounds like a good start.

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Originally Posted by Crizhalid

How tank stance interacts with bosses is dependent on how the fight is designed. Addressing that sounds like a good start.

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the problem with the actual desing is, if you impose tank stances with DPS penalty agresive tanks get angry, but the current status of tank stances is unacceptable bcs are not being used as how are desing, cost is so high and dont offer nothing that we can cover with our other skills thats the main problem, thats why my suggestion its neutral, keeping the actual cost of GDC/MP/recast but with no big dps cost as we are sufering rigth now will make tank stances usefull in every level of content and make it dance depending of the fight, the cost will be still there but no at a insane level as now.

i defend this bcs im against to every desing that make some skill useless, situational skills are a thing but tank stances are so much cost for little reward, the cost and reward should be equal at minimun.

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Originally Posted by shao32

so you say i have to dealt with it huh? i dont have a ninja in my raid team so i have to drop all my potential bcs of that its that so? want to keep our trash stances? lets keep our trash stances, if you dont want to improve it to make it better its ok, but is clearly you dont understand the point.

its not about dont need or need a NIN to clear runs or good healers, is being more independent of both, thats what make remove tank stance damage penalty, tank stances and actual tanks interacting with bosses dont match at all, i want better sinergy on that, and not being punish so bad bcs i dont have X job in my team, basicly how punishing was play NIN in HW when you dont have a WAR in you team.

tank stances loose all they purpose now for raiders, whats the point on keep it like that?

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I mean...my group doesn't have a ninja (monk/drg) and I still manage to get good dps numbers. Now that shirk exists, not having a ninja isn't really a big deal. The only thing you're missing without a ninja is an equilibrium-only pull.

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Originally Posted by Hruodig

I mean...my group doesn't have a ninja (monk/drg) and I still manage to get good dps numbers. Now that shirk exists, not having a ninja isn't really a big deal. The only thing you're missing without a ninja is an equilibrium-only pull.

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Yeah, mine doesn't have a ninja either (drg/sam). You adapt to your situation. I wont ever hit 99% without a ninja. But 80+ is still just fine, and we still win and get loot and have fun as a group.

A bard cant meet its max potential without a drg. Tanks cant meet max potential without a nin. Pld/Drk cant meet max potential without a War/Sam/Nin. Casters cant max potential without Brd/Mch. Shield healer cant meet its potential without a bomb healer. There are so many party buffs and boss debuffs that every job gets better with specific other jobs in the party. That's called synergy. Its not evil in the small doses we have in this game.