SE, We need to talk about Leatherworker ...

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Originally Posted by Catwho

Yeah for 2.0 my retainers were on full time farm for Deepeye Tears and Chimera Hair and the leathers. With x4 battle retainers, I could get 40 items an hour.

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Deepeye are still a curse, even when you can one shot them and rotate through them at full tilt. Sure you get the odd 3 stack but you get the runs of 8 or 9 that don't give any, far more. Like I said in another thread, give me some gear, some food, anything to boost drop rates.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Nonsense. As I posted, two hunting retainers are enough - I have three, and they bring in mats faster than I use them. And everyone gets two for free.

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Again you're on a lot, others have mentioned limited time. Yoshi again stated he doesn't want players to feel like they have to stay on all the time. He wants them to stay subscribed, since this is by the month, not the hour (in terms of paying for playtime).

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Fairness, in a video game? Are you kidding?

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Business > "fairness"
If it affects players in a way that harms business that gonna be something he needs feedback on.

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Isn't for Leatherworkers, the topic of this thread, since they are Weaver mats.

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Says the guy "awash in manes" ... Now you want to try playing that. Please. As I said that's why I said it needed it's own separate thread, but as far as LTW go I already said it's pretty much fine. These arguments about the mane is to counter a point YOU bragged about.

The thing is this is a lower tier mat than Twincoon, this is just like before where LTW was complaining about GATED items like the Corthean Tea Leaves. The devs then let the Sundries vendor in Foundation sell some of those mats. So yeah they do listen to feedback.

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So: Please forward to whatever the iL320 DoH/DoL gear requires being even harder to get.
Yoshida-san understands that top-end crafting should be a challenge, just like top-end raiding, and that includes getting the mats for it.

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So what, it has nothing to do with leveling gear. If you're gonna make an argument at least stay consistent to the point. Asking for a vendor happened BEFORE, not so wrong to ask for it again. Not talking about the level of difficulty for future mats, people are welcoming the challenge. They are just asking for a bit of relief on a bottlenecked mat that is not only used as a base craft ie the mane itself, but also the thread and cloth.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Again you're on a lot, others have mentioned limited time.

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How do you know that? I often log on, cycle my retainers, and log off. Takes maybe three minutes.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Says the guy "awash in manes" ... Now you want to try playing that.

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The exact quote is "I'm awash in skins, manes and hairs."

Tsk tsk tsk. That's dishonest quoting on your part, you didn't even include an ellipsis. I've seen lawyers try that trick in their briefs, pretending something or someone said something other than what was really said, in an effort to win an argument. It doesn't fool the court, the law clerks always check. All it accomplishes is damaging of the lawyer's credibility.

Not surprisingly, the same thing can happen when a person quotes dishonestly on an internet forum, where everyone's a judge.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

How do you know that? I often log on, cycle my retainers, and log off. Takes maybe three minutes.

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Still more time spent than others on average can. Until they develop an API for that...

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The exact quote is "I'm awash in skins, manes and hairs."

Tsk tsk tsk. That's dishonest quoting on your part, you didn't even include an ellipsis. I've seen lawyers try that trick in their briefs, pretending something or someone said something other than what was really said, in an effort to win an argument. It doesn't fool the court, the law clerks always check. All it accomplishes is damaging of the lawyer's credibility.

Not surprisingly, the same thing can happen when a person quotes dishonestly on an internet forum, where everyone's a judge.

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A partial quote is that is not out of context of what you are saying is in no way dishonest. Nice try. Get back to the point.

The point is, that they have offered a remedy in the past for mats if they are problematic.

Silverbane, are you really just this ignorant? You have three battle retainers - great - that's still paying for one extra retainer, and then that locks them out of the possibility of having other kinds of retainers (btn/min/fsh). No other item in the game has the solution of "make your retainers gather it all" for the best strategy of gathering it. I'm constantly sending my retainers out too. But the retainers are supposed to be a side benefit, a little bit extra, not your sole source because the drop rate is so terrible.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Silverbane, are you really just this ignorant?

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Leading with a personal attack. What do you think that accomplishes? Do you think it helps you win the argument? Do you think it makes me sad, because you think I care about the opinion what some internet stranger who has no clue who I am? LOL. No, not a bit.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

You have three battle retainers - great - that's still paying for one extra retainer

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My argument is that since three battle retainers keep me awash in more mats than I can use, two is enough. Can you prove otherwise?

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Originally Posted by Elamys

and then that locks them out of the possibility of having other kinds of retainers (btn/min/fsh)

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A minor inconvenience. Anything such retainers might gather, I can quickly and easily gather myself. It's not like hides and other beast-part drops.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

But the retainers are supposed to be a side benefit, a little bit extra, not your sole source because the drop rate is so terrible.

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Then why have they served that function (getting difficult beast-part drops) ever since 2.0?

What's your source of knowledge that justifies your claim about what retainers are "supposed" to be? Or are you just making things up to suit your conclusion?

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

A partial quote is that is not out of context of what you are saying is in no way dishonest.

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Sure it is. You were criticizing me for being off topic because I said "awash in manes" and the thread is about Leatherworkers, but in fact I wrote (led with even) skins, not manes, and skins are directly relevant to Leatherworkers. So your criticism was dishonest, and supported by a dishonest quote.

Even if you don't understand that it's a dishonest tactic (and to support an invalid ad-hominem as well, in this case, a double fault) I think most of the readers here will. And that's what important: just like in court, the goal of an argument is to convince members of the "jury," not your opponent.

Of course, the only jury that really matters is the developers. And they don't seem to agree with you.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Still more time spent than others on average can.

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Gotta put in above the average work level if you want to achieve above the average result. Do not need an API for that - you just need to accept that you cannot get the maximum result with the minimum of effort.

Are the manes/hairs an annoying problem, especially if you intend to go hunting for them yourself? Yup. Don't think anyone's denying that anywhere in this thread. The solutions, for whatever reason, seem to be anathema to you, on the basis that "its not fair because not everyone can do those". Well, maybe not, but most can, they merely choose not to, for one reason or another in their personal lives. Nothing wrong with that at all - but bear in mind, again, that you do not get maximum results with minimum effort.

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

Nothing wrong with that at all - but bear in mind, again, that you do not get maximum results with minimum effort.

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Sorry but sending out a retainer is not "maximum effort"

What is with the strawman logic here? Was there EVER an argument about asking for "Maximum results"? A possibility of having a vendor similar to HW is maximum results now"?

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Sure it is. You were criticizing me for being off topic because I said "awash in manes" and the thread is about Leatherworkers, but in fact I wrote (led with even) skins, not manes, and skins are directly relevant to Leatherworkers.

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So 2/3 of your reply was off topic which now equals "none of it?" No sorry, try again. You decided to intentionally include those in your reply.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

It is dumb to not plan ahead, and dumb to not realize you can "borrow" mats from the marketboard.
Yet you seem to think these two options aren't available.

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Price fluctuation is a thing you know. You're not guaranteed to sell those mats at the same price you paid. In fact, it's less likely once you account for taxes. Furthermore, planning ahead only works if you've set aside a specific period to craft. A lot of people decide to do it on the fly. Regardless, you're still arguing a strawman. My post was a direct response to your accusation buffing drop rates somehow "dumbs down" crafting. And you've dodged it every single reply thereafter.

Since you're so much smarter. It should be a simple answer, non?

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Leading with a personal attack. What do you think that accomplishes? Do you think it helps you win the argument? Do you think it makes me sad, because you think I care about the opinion what some internet stranger who has no clue who I am? LOL. No, not a bit.

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Perhaps the same as passive aggressive personal attacks? I find rather amusing you take offense to someone supposedly taking a jab at you but have no qualms doing it yourself.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

(responding to Roth) What is with the strawman logic here? ...

(Responding to me) So 2/3 of your reply was off topic which now equals "none of it?" No sorry, try again. You decided to intentionally include those in your reply.

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LOL. You post something 100% off-topic that is nothing but personal attacks on two other posters, and you complain because I included Weaver mats along with Leatherworker mats in a four-word list? And where is this "none of it" from? You put it in quotes, as if I said it, but it's not in the post you are responding to, or in any other post in this thread for that matter.

I'd like to think you know how to have an honest and logical debate with someone, but I don't see any evidence of that in your posts.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Price fluctuation is a thing you know. You're not guaranteed to sell those mats at the same price you paid.

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True, you might make money, you might lose. Wow, risk in a game, imagine that. But opportunity cost is a thing, too, you know.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Furthermore, planning ahead only works if you've set aside a specific period to craft. A lot of people decide to do it on the fly.

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Nonsense. I have no idea when I'm going to craft new gear to get my gatherer retainers to 1150 gathering, but I know I'm going to, and I know what mats I'll need to do so, so I've planned ahead without any concept of a "specific period." My retainers are out gathering those mats even as I write this. They are also restocking any mats I use that I am getting low on, even though I may not actually need, say, Kudzu root, any time soon. I might be wasting a few ventures, but I don't care.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

My post was a direct response to your accusation buffing drop rates somehow "dumbs down" crafting. And you've dodged it every single reply thereafter.

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And now you're just making things up. I made no such accusation.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Since you're so much smarter. It should be a simple answer, non?

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Whether I'm smarter or not, at least I'm not incoherent. You haven't presented a question, so what is there supposed to be a simple answer too, exactly?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Perhaps the same as passive aggressive personal attacks? I find rather amusing you take offense to someone supposedly taking a jab at you but have no qualms doing it yourself.

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You don't see the difference between criticizing a post and insulting the person who posted it?
Sad.

Square did a good job on the dawn serge mats. Players could hunt manes and hairs and make some good money if they had no other way to. I hunted them at one point and it would of been over 500k an hour if i sold them, decent for a non crafter/gatherer. Prices always stayed high on crafter gear, I bought manes and hairs off market when I needed them to craft more. It doesn't matter what retainer you have, any retainer can go get something and you can sell it or craft it into a base mat or whatever and make more money. The sun shines on them all. Personally I would take a botanist and miner over hunter retainers, especially when leveling crafters, only leatherworker really benefits from hunter. I don't even send my hunter out anymore cause I don't need anything but I always need palladium sand and pretty much every botanist item. Without manes and hairs the price of gazelle hide would of dropped to nothing and gatherer equipment would of plummeted too.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Nonsense. I have no idea when I'm going to craft new gear to get my gatherer retainers to 1150 gathering, but I know I'm going to, and I know what mats I'll need to do so, so I've planned ahead without any concept of a "specific period." My retainers are out gathering those mats even as I write this. They are also restocking any mats I use that I am getting low on, even though I may not actually need, say, Kudzu root, any time soon. I might be wasting a few ventures, but I don't care.

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Good for you? As previously noted, not everyone has multiple battle retainers nor does this have any impact on whether mob drop rates are exceedingly low. I send mine out constantly too. It's still tedious needing so much of a single base mat.

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And now you're just making things up. I made no such accusation.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

<Sigh> As if 4.0 didn't dumb down the game enough.

Don't complain that your hunter retainers aren't a class you've leveled yet, that's just poor planning. I had one of four like that (an archer, I main WHM with a side of WAR now), so I reset him to Fisher and re-leveled him.

And after putting L310 scrip gear on my retainers, I'm awash in skins, manes and hairs. And still have four stacks of ventures, the amount of GC seals you get from dungeon drops is insane.

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You gave no further context nor did you quote anyone else. Therefore, it's hard not to infer your post in a thread about mob drop rates to be precisely how I responded.

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Whether I'm smarter or not, at least I'm not incoherent. You haven't presented a question, so what is there supposed to be a simple answer too, exactly?

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Apparently, you are. Good to see that passive aggressiveness hasn't simmered down yet.

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You don't see the difference between criticizing a post and insulting the person who posted it?
Sad.

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You didn't criticize. You took jabs at the perceived poor planning of other crafts, avoided the very response you were criticized for and immediately cried when someone called you "ignorant" for continuously missing the point. But yes, we're the ones with reading comprehension issues. Sad, indeed.

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Originally Posted by Ziggyzapps

Personally I would take a botanist and miner over hunter retainers

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Same.
One of the things I haven't seen mentioned is retainer gear score requirements. Stormblood Gathering requirement starts at 728 Gathering. Stormblood hunting requirement is a 245 score. You can ignore accessories when gearing a Gathering retainer. You can't do that with Hunt retainers and the Augmented 60 set is only 240 gear score so you are forced to suit Stormblood Hunt retainers in full Stormblood gear and that isn't cheap. Even NQ versions.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

LOL. You post something 100% off-topic that is nothing but personal attacks on two other posters, and you complain because I included Weaver mats along with Leatherworker mats in a four-word list? And where is this "none of it" from? You put it in quotes, as if I said it, but it's not in the post you are responding to, or in any other post in this thread for that matter.

I'd like to think you know how to have an honest and logical debate with someone, but I don't see any evidence of that in your posts.

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Can you go back and re-read the thread please?

ad Hominem much?

Pointing out logical fallacy is not the same as a personal attack, which is an attack on one's character. You're trying to dismiss something you stated as not part of the post. That's not true. You can't come in this thread and say something like "I got some tiger hides, and the tea in China tastes bad " and not have people pointing out you mentioned the tea in China. "Well my topic is still on topic because I mentioned the hides first and you're questioning me about the tea in China!"

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Originally Posted by Ziggyzapps

Square did a good job on the dawn serge mats. Players could hunt manes and hairs and make some good money if they had no other way to.

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I'd agree if this wouldn't lead to botting, or people with multiple retainers to take the advantage over the player who needs the money. It was bad enough prior zones had bots, like for the fleece and snurble tufts, and other areas as well. The other thing is there's NQ gear that uses the same mats and sells cheaper, which will cause a disinterest in selling the gear if someone, for some reason botches it becoming HQ.

I do remember however, prices adjusting when Aquapolis dropped the felts. Were the yarns dropping in Canals? I had gotten various lumbers and the Cloths for 1 star crafts...but I can't confirm the yarns and surge, since none have dropped when I was doing maps.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Good for you? As previously noted, not everyone has multiple battle retainers nor does this have any impact on whether mob drop rates are exceedingly low. I send mine out constantly too. It's still tedious needing so much of a single base mat.

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Not the point. You said "Furthermore, planning ahead only works if you've set aside a specific period to craft." I called that for the nonsense it is.

Clearly, since you won't even recognize such obvious mistakes on your part, arguing with you is a waste of my time. Welcome to my ignore list -- you're only the second person to earn a place on it.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Can you go back and re-read the thread please?

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Oh, I did much better than that. I searched the entire text of the thread for the word "none."
Your supposed quote "none of it" didn't show up, much less as something I posted.
You just made it up.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

ad Hominem much?

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Pointing out your false statements isn't ad hominem. Go look up the term before you trot it out. Here, let me help:

"a logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument -- rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself." -- Wikipedia.

Pointing out that your portraying of the phrase "none of it" as a quote (or as something I posted) is dishonest is not an ad hominem, but simply a conclusion easily drawn from the facts.

FYI, arguing (in particular, arguing points of law, science, and technology) is a big part of what I do for a living.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Oh, I did much better than that. I searched the entire text of the thread for the word "none."
Your supposed quote "none of it" didn't show up, much less as something I posted.
You just made it up.

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The argument you tried to make was that the mane and hair was irrelevant because you stated skins. When in fact 2 of the 3 items has to do with what I was talking about. You reached the conclusion I was off topic/deceitful by pulling from your very statement. Regardless if I mentioned the quote by whole or not it was in context to what you wrote. Or are you denying that the hair and mane should not be in question despite the fact you said it? Is your statement relevant or not?

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FYI, arguing (in particular, arguing points of law, science, and technology) is a big part of what I do for a living.

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Nice argument from authority fallacy there.


You cannot bully me, or try some scare tactic when I'm responding to your statements by calling me deceitful or dishonest because it is none of those things. I won't back down when someone is trying those kind of scare tatics and making personal attacks on my character. I will stand up for myself. So you can stop it or get back to the point.

There is something a bit wrong when an overworld mob drop is harder to acquire than a gated node. Whether this can be remedied by an increase of percentage of drops (I wouldn't know how much would be fair I think the devs need to look at the objective on it) or making it a vendor item or Canal drop would greatly be appreciated.

If the intended purpose was to get people out in overworld and harvest by battle classes, people who are in battle classes find this frustrating and everyone will go to the path of least resistance. So people who have been able to afford battle retainers, and extra ones at that are gaining a distinct advantage and this is unbalanced play.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

... people with multiple retainers to take the advantage over the player who needs the money ...

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Major point: There is no "player who needs the money," just players who want the money. And the game provides plenty if the player is willing to do the work.

Minor point: all characters (above the required level) can have multiple retainers: two each. And every player paying the standard subscription can have multiple characters.
Therefore every player paying the standard subscription can have several retainers, no extra charge.

It can be a pain moving things from character to character though. A big pain sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Major point: There is no "player who needs the money," just players who want the money. And the game provides plenty if the player is willing to do the work.

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You'd be correct one one level, but given the context was in response for battle classes needing money, it would mean that neither argument should have been brought up to begin with. So you nullified the earlier post more than my rebuttal. If we are arguing about how people can make money in the game then both statements have points and counterpoints. Yes you can make money as a battle class if the person to spend more time, but again path of least resistance makes it less of advantage for a battle class that would "need the money". Meaning that if a retainer can do the job better, people will use those instead and the person trying to harvest is going to lose interest due to less reward and find something else to do.

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Minor point: all characters (above the required level) can have multiple retainers: two each. And every player paying the standard subscription can have multiple characters.
Therefore every player paying the standard subscription can have several retainers, no extra charge.

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Not everyone is paying the standard subscription. This is why gamecards still exist. This game is played internationally. The whole reason its a pain is to prevent more "pay to win" though, if the person logs their alt into the same free company they can use the chest. This is a loophole and I'm quite sure is unintended. There's a reason the devs developed it where it was more difficult to do, they are trying to discourage multiple people logging in on one account, and using alts to funnel the funds easily. That doesn't mean people haven't figured out ways around it.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

The argument you tried to make was that the mane and hair was irrelevant because you stated skins. When in fact 2 of the 3 items has to do with what I was talking about. You reached the conclusion I was off topic/deceitful by pulling from your very statement. Regardless if I mentioned the quote by whole or not it was in context to what you wrote.

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So, being dishonest about what other people posted is okay with you, that's your point?
And your interpretation of what I posted is incorrect.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Nice argument from authority fallacy there.

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Wrong. I merely pointed out that arguing is what I do for a living. I never stated or implied that that makes my arguments correct.
I was just providing you fair notice that you are clearly out of your league here. So much so that you don't even understand what the terms you are using mean (and therefore may be misunderstanding the terms I use as well). Stop embarrassing yourself: look them up. It's easy on the internet.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

... calling me deceitful or dishonest because it is none of those things.

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You post things that are not true and then, rather than admit to a mistake, defend your posting of those untrue things.
How can you do that and not be dishonest?

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

I won't back down when someone is trying those kind of scare tatics and making personal attacks on my character. I will stand up for myself. So you can stop it or get back to the point.

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The point is that you have (apparently deliberately) been misrepresenting what I've posted, and when that is pointed out to you, you put on your mule ears and "refuse to back down" -- that is, refuse to admit your mistake. Do you think this gains you cred? Or do you think it makes you look like a petulant six year old?

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Not everyone is paying the standard subscription.

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Gee, that must be why I wrote "every player paying the standard subscription can have multiple characters" instead of writing "every player can have multiple characters."

Looking for reasons to argue with someone just because you made a fool of yourself in earlier responses to them is not a good idea, BTW. BTDT, 25 years ago on USENET. Grew out of it.

Making multiple characters, and paying for retainers, is taken out of the equation since they're seen as a "pay to win" or ways to get loophole around system limits/gaming the system.

So again look at it from the perspective of a person using a single character, and the two free retainers.

I'm trying to look at it as fairly as possible for players with those base limits, and left aside any advantages I may have or others may have.. be it through multiple characters or extra paid retainers.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

The whole reason its a pain is to prevent more "pay to win" though, if the person logs their alt into the same free company they can use the chest. This is a loophole and I'm quite sure is unintended. There's a reason the devs developed it where it was more difficult to do, they are trying to discourage multiple people logging in on one account, and using alts to funnel the funds easily. That doesn't mean people haven't figured out ways around it.

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Free accounts voided that out as a barrier and I think the reason they don't simply add alts to friends is the same reason you can't interact in dungeons. If I log in to a world on the same data center and try and duplicate a character name it won't let me. It says the name is taken but if I switch data centers it will let me use the same name multiple times. The game doesn't see worlds as distinct, just Data Centers. If they add our alts to friends, it would scan all alts on a data center and add them, not just world alts. That opens up cross world trading, something I think none of us want. Back to the original comment though. You can multi box and have a paid and a free account on to do alt trading if you don't want to FC the transaction. You might even be able to dual box an FC of your own. I don't know what the FC restrictions are on free players.

If I recall correctly manual multiboxing wasn't against ToS but highly discouraged. The free accounts were meant as a way for household members to play and not game the system. Otherwise it would be easy to do on a console. Since PS4 to play the game your PSN ID is linked to the FFXIV account/license. So if multiple members were on the same PS4 each needs a separate licensed copy of the game along with a separate PSN ID.

That said, this is really workarounds from intended usage. So from a single character 2 retainer standpoint. I think the manes need work but I've stated this in a related thread.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Not the point. You said "Furthermore, planning ahead only works if you've set aside a specific period to craft." I called that for the nonsense it is.

Clearly, since you won't even recognize such obvious mistakes on your part, arguing with you is a waste of my time. Welcome to my ignore list -- you're only the second person to earn a place on it.

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And I explained why. You just failed to understand. If you actually did put me on your ignore list, guess I should feel honored. The fact you had to mention it publicly... is pathetic.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

And I explained why. You just failed to understand. If you actually did put me on your ignore list, guess I should feel honored. The fact you had to mention it publicly... is pathetic.

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I've never seen someone this dramatic about a very simple request.

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Originally Posted by Elamys

I've never seen someone this dramatic about a very simple request.

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Right? That's what baffles me. You weren't even rude to her yet she's gone on a crusade for three pages. It's... bizarre. o.O

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Originally Posted by Ksenia

You are forced to suit Stormblood Hunt retainers in full Stormblood gear and that isn't cheap. Even NQ versions.

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I gear them with Expert roulette dungeon drops and Verity tomestone gear. One of them currently has a higher iLvl (301) than I do.

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Sorry but sending out a retainer is not "maximum effort"

What is with the strawman logic here? Was there EVER an argument about asking for "Maximum results"? A possibility of having a vendor similar to HW is maximum results now"?

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Who said that sending a retainer out once was maximum effort? All I said was that you cannot expect the best possible results (maximum results) with the minimum amount of effort (sending a retainer out once). You have to be there for the retainer when it gets back, so you can send it out again, then again, then again. IE - sending it out more "than average" which is what you were complaining about in the post I replied to!

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Originally Posted by Roth_Trailfinder

Who said that sending a retainer out once was maximum effort? All I said was that you cannot expect the best possible results (maximum results) with the minimum amount of effort (sending a retainer out once). You have to be there for the retainer when it gets back, so you can send it out again, then again, then again. IE - sending it out more "than average" which is what you were complaining about in the post I replied to!

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You just repeated the same argument I refuted.

This is a strawman argument because no one is asking for "maximum" I'm not sure if you understand this. You're making a position that people are arguing for a high end result and are doing little. That isn't the argument at all.

The difference between what you say you are asking for, better results for mimimal work, and the maximum results for minimum work, is one of degree, not kind. Where do I get the idea you want minimal work?

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Still more time spent than others on average can

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

Again you're on a lot, others have mentioned limited time.

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If people can only put in minimal time, they cannot expect more than minimal results. Its that plain and simple.

No. Again, not the argument. You're being too linear on the argument itself.

The person had multiple retainers, which already was more than the max of a single player. The person also came on even if for a few minutes every hour, to resend them. You are equating that with "effort". None of that is effort or should be a "min/max" argument at all. They are arguments in more specific context, and you're using a strawman in trying to refute the problem.

The game devs have either done the following when a mat is a bottleneck. (Interesting is that no one refutes that the drops are terrible, or even the proposals below, that I've stated several times now).

1. Increase the drop rate. - The problem with this is...this is the least measurable effect for people. The one way to measure this though, is hunting the mob, giving more drops than a *single* retainer can bring in an hour (and I'd say it should be at least twice to 3 times the amount). If so then it's not so bad. The thing is people were complaining that their retainers are bring more than what they're harvesting. It's a matter of seeing if it's exaggeration or an actual problem to be looked at.

2. The mat drops in other parts of content, be it a dungeon, or maps (Canal/Aquapolis).

3. The mat is sold by a vendor. This happened in the case of beast tribes and Sundries. Tea Leaves, Mistletoe, Rock Salt were sold by Sundries, later one beast tribes sold nuggets, and logs etc...

Basically player advantage, ie a person hunting or gathering should always be given over a retainer. People are arguing about usage of a retainer because the retainer is given too much advantage in this case.

Don't be ridiculous. The problem is that people putting in the effort of what they can get cannot even remotely get enough of the material to craft.

There is no other feature of the game like this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Don't be ridiculous. The problem is that people putting in the effort of what they can get cannot even remotely get enough of the material to craft.

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Not sure what that sentence means, but my wife spent 40 minutes on her iL297 Bard last night killing Manzasiris on the steppes, and flew away with enough Manzasiri hair to craft an entire set of top-end gatherer gear. And leveled her chocobo in the process -- or vice versa.

Perhaps some of the posters here should actually try putting in a modest effort before they start complaining about how impossible it is to gather your own mats.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elamys

Don't be ridiculous. The problem is that people putting in the effort of what they can get cannot even remotely get enough of the material to craft.

There is no other feature of the game like this.

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I just checked with bard to see if the Manzasiri hairs still had a terrible drop rate. I checked how much time it took since I had to queue for something with a 10 minute wait tome. I got 20 hairs in 10 minutes. Not great but more more then the expected amount against a retainer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

I just checked with bard to see if the Manzasiri hairs still had a terrible drop rate. I checked how much time it took since I had to queue for something with a 10 minute wait tome. I got 20 hairs in 10 minutes. Not great but more more then the expected amount against a retainer.

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LOL. Sounds like people were saying something was too difficult because they'd never even tried to do it.
Who's going to apologize now for talking out their butt, hmm?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

LOL. Sounds like people were saying something was too difficult because they'd never even tried to do it.
Who's going to apologize now for talking out their butt, hmm?

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They did have a horrible drop rate before. It was probably fixed in the last update.

Also being rude and passive aggressive to players, is likely to have any points you made ignored. So maybe tone that down?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by QT_Melon

They did have a horrible drop rate before. It was probably fixed in the last update?

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Now you're definitely just making things up to serve your pre-conceived conclusions.
You have no statistically significant evidence at all that the drop rate changed, do you?
Oh, but they must have, or you'd look like a fool.

Oh snap -- you aren't a politician in real life, are you?

Either way, I am indeed laughing at you, and your fellow travelers on the It's-Too-Hard bandwagon.
And I'm not replying to the part of your post where you once again use a term you obviously do not understand.
Don't just parrot what other people say, look things up, for goodness sake!