Is it just me or are people overreacting to WHM too soon?

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

But then again, maybe I shouldn't agree with you. 4.0 WHM is actually looking very good on the DPS front. SCH AoE DPS was heavily nerfed, WHM AOE significantly buffed... and that stone 4 potency is huge...

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It looks VERY good. So good that I wonder if it can compensate for their lack of utility. And it would also seem they have addressed WHMs MP problems in a very big way. We will just have to wait and see what player's parsers pull up. But I have a hunch that once these numbers come up...

http://i.imgur.com/xQYFF9k.jpg

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Playtesters of the new dungeons don't agree, and said they were easy to heal. And data shows that durations were not nerfed (Aspected Benefic was buffed both in terms of raw potency and from the new stance buffs).

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If you saw what I saw, you saw them go up against some dungeon trash, pre-level 70, and that is it. No bosses, hunts, trials, etc. It is not enough for us or them to go off of, and they should have been the first voice to say that along with reiterating that changes can and still will be made up until SBs release. New expansions never arrive with a polished finish. Things are typically a mess at the start. Not only do we have to wait for 4.0, but we also have to wait for future adjustments.

I don't think people are necessarily overreacting. The strong feeling of disappointment of the supposedly new-and-improved 4.0 WHM when compared to the other 2 4.0 healers is a valid feeling to have. It's not wrong to want more or expect better. Especially when people were hoping that -this- would be the time for a change for the better.

While the positive thinking is truly admirable at a time like this, we can't really ignore how the new gauges and mechanics for the other 2 healers are designed in a way that they'll be gained and used naturally as the other 2 healers have always functioned. Whereas for WHMs in 4.0, all players have to cling on is the slightest possibility that maybe the 4.0 dungeons and raids will cater more to cure spam. Which we all know, in ARR & HW -- We've all gotten used to that sort of method as being inefficient.

So its okay to react so passionately about it, negative or otherwise. :)

Problem is people are taking the meta as gospel and think it is the only way to do things.
1. Is WHM viable for savage? Yes(well, I hope so, if they are not, then SE really messed up)
2. Is WHM efficient for savage? That answer appears to be no.

Just because it's not part of the most efficient party make up does not mean WHM can't succeed at savage. Reality is, there are 3 healers, since you only need 2 for a raid, one of the healers will always be the odd jobs out. Effecient and viable are separate things. People think the most efficient party setup is the ONLY setup that will work, that's just not the case.

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

the machinist want to talk with you about them ammo thing.... them whole combo mechanic is based on rng...

the AST want to have a word with you with royal road buff that get consumed at the next use... forcing you to think a bit before use your card.

if the white mage can heal stronger than other (what it can already, you know?)it means he can dps more before heal... then assist in dps... or in raid allows the second healer (generally ast or sch) to dps more. assist is not only about give a buff, but allows other to do more...

from what i have seen soo far, you have little to no knowledge about how the game work for the other jobs... they want make people focus on using mono heal instead to play the easy road of aoe heal... because maybe the monster in Stormblood will hit far harder and will recquire more solo heal than aoe heal.. in the video about the dungeon a sam did get a 19k damage from an aoe of a trash... it's insane... and it's only level 63... i think people really need to stop to over react and wait to test the actual change on the long terms... and stop with meta is absolute... yoshida have make sure is possible to do every content with any composition... if your group only want to rely on the best of the best... they aren't really facing the challenge... they are taking the easy way out by playing the best in the slot composition.

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- Point 1: MCH's reliance on RNG appears to be reduced, and even then, their main issue was less about the RNG (they had cooldowns specifically designed to bypass the RNG, which WHM doesn't get in their new system), and more about how burst/opener-heavy their damage is. If there's one common theme among all of the SB changes, it would appear the devs want to kill the concept of openers entirely, or at least redistribute damage potential throughout an entire fight instead of having raid groups heavily emphasize 20 second burst damage windows at the start of a fight and repeating it again 2-3 minutes later or after a phase change.

AST started out as being -the- RNG class. Everyone reading this thread should already know by now how much they changed throughout HW to drastically reduce the impact of bad RNG on their end, unless everyone here suddenly has the memory of a goldfish when it's convenient for one's argument. And even then, the act of drawing a card is guaranteed, the RNG is based on WHICH card you get. WHMs have no guaranteed ways to generate lilies, and all of their lilies are spent on their two new key skills and a few older ones.

Both of these are nowhere near what WHM is facing now. Why the hell are there even people here thinking that WHM being subject to even worse RNG with far less depth in their system overall is fine? Tell us to wait and see what happens all you want, but know that development is not instant. The devs have drilled it into your heads that these things take time. There are only two weeks remaining until SB Early Access starts. This late into development, the only changes we can potentially see will be numerical, rather than based on utility, unless some miracle happens - and given the track record thus far, it may still not be enough. So at the very least, WHMs will have to start out in SB being fairly gimped, until about 2-3 patches in before things finally settle down.

- Point 2: WHM, on paper, has the strongest heals in the game. But their issue is something else entirely: They have little to no damage mitigation compared to the other healers. Surely all of you have been in enough Dun Scaith runs by now to note what happens in struggling alliances that have parties with double WHM as opposed to parties that have at least one SCH and AST in their party. All the healing strength in the world doesn't matter if half your party members have no chance of surviving an ultimate due to having vulnerability stacks/are weakened from having died beforehand, and you have no mitigation to make up for the difference (unless the tank is aware enough to risk using tank LB, which I will definitely commend them for since they're thinking outside of the box and have the party's best interests at heart, even with the knowledge that it may result in them being chewed out by DPS that don't know any better). And this isn't freaking Savage, this is a standard 24-man raid that you have zero control over in terms of party compositions of all three parties unless you queue in as a full 24-man premade (in which case, I would say they're trying too hard, but more power to you if you can actually get 24 people together through PF). From a design standpoint, this is problematic, not just for the viability of WHMs in general, but exactly how the developers should tune their fights moving forward.

WHM finally gained some unique mitigation, but what did AST and SCH receive in response? Their healing strength predictably went up, and they gained greater party utility in response. In some fights, the best defense is a good offense.

- Point 3: Maybe before you try calling out my knowledge, maybe you should pay attention to what's happening to everyone besides yourself, and WHY these things are happening. People like to frame this as being some elitist meta VS casual thing, but I see this from a standpoint of balancing class design with content design. You're telling me that, and this is a direct quote from you, "maybe the monster in Stormblood will hit far harder and will recquire more solo heal than aoe heal". That goes into another point: Has everyone already forgotten what issues AST had at the very beginning of HW? AST was perceived as a job that struggled in 4-man content because their healing potency was too low. Then they continuously received buffs after enough of the (smaller) AST community slammed the devs over it.

Are you telling me that you think the devs are going to repeat that mistake with AST and SCH again, because they're going to design enemy attack strength around WHM raw healing power? Judging by your post count and forum join date, you've played this game longer than I have. And you should know better by now. And once again: You don't even have WHM and AST maxed out, the very subjects of this thread.

With that, let's go back to the original point of this thread: The Lily mechanic is bad, it's contradictory, and it actively punishes certain playing styles by funneling emphasis into Cure I/II, when chances are you'll be more effective by outright ignoring the lily mechanic. You know, the very thing the devs are trying to avoid.

I played AST from day one and it was perfectly capable of healing roulette content before all the buffs. People whined and AST got crazy buffs. Now here we are....

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Originally Posted by Brill_

Problem is people are taking the meta as gospel and think it is the only way to do things.
1. Is WHM viable for savage? Yes(well, I hope so, if they are not, then SE really messed up)
2. Is WHM efficient for savage? That answer appears to be no.

Just because it's not part of the most efficient party make up does not mean WHM can't succeed at savage. Reality is, there are 3 healers, since you only need 2 for a raid, one of the healers will always be the odd jobs out. Effecient and viable are separate things. People think the most efficient party setup is the ONLY setup that will work, that's just not the case.

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i don't care about that at all, i do not raid.

i do however like to play my class well. The 4.0 WHM changes introduce a catch-22 to playing the job well that is present in ALL KINDS OF CONTENT. The problems with these skills will be present at all time and in all content once you get access to lily procs.

This is not a problem that is limited to Raid Meta or some other context that people can safely ignore because they don't think it affects them. These are problem that every single player who enjoys WHM will have to deal with, regardless of their playstyle and preferred content.

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Originally Posted by Valinis

Because the devs are not going to read any of these threads anyway. You are complaining to a wall.

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Which is the only action I can take short of complaining with my wallet. As I would rather pay to play something I enjoy than be without either game or payment, the attempt at least seems worthwhile to me.

But hey, if you'd like to call out futility by default, feel free. The experience and player population may diminish, but complacency can then go uncontested.

Its not like we have not been given unspecific details. The media tour gave a lot and what we saw for WHM does not look good at the start of the coming expansion. So people are damn right to complain if they feel the product they are getting is faulty.

People seem to be mistaking the issue people have for a viability one.

There are two issues:

1. The new WHM mechanic is poorly designed. It is dependent on high heals and even then leaves the WHM with no real control over the use of the Lily resource unless they actively DONT use CDs, which kind of defeats the purpose of a mechanic that reduces the cooldown on CDs. The RNG also makes it very difficult to predict when you will get resource and it is almost completely useless any time your not constantly healing. It also will now be the resource everyone is waiting to be prebuilt before a pull. Frankly the whole Lily interface is pretty useless as it isn't really a resource WHM's will be managing.

This issue really has nothing to do with the other healers. Its just a messy design and doesn't have any gameplay value at all.

2. WHM is viable and will continue to be so for healing, mainly due to what it already has rather than anything new it is getting. The reason it is a problem is that AST is just better for party gameplay. AST is very competitive with WHM in healing, particularly with additions like Earthly Star and the Lady card, but it also brings a lot to the table in the way of substancial buffs. In addition WHM dps isn't that far above it. Gravity hits for the same damage as Holy and can be cast at a range. Only Aero 3 gives WHM an edge on that front. In single target the extra dot and higher damage of Stone 4 will make a difference but it will also be somewhat offset by Lord cards which are off GCD and hit for around 300 pot currently. WHM dps isn't going to be high enough to offset the benefits of ASTs cards unless WHM gets a huge dps buff. Beyond that AST just brings more heal utility. It has better mitigation, and higher mobility. It just brings more.

WHM is the cheap 10k family car. It will get you their but not much else. AST is the 60k geared up luxury car. It has all the benefits of the family car but with all these extras. If you got to pick between the two to drive, why exactly would you pick the 10k car (ignoring any road costs and insurance for those who want to be padantic). AST is just a better car.

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Originally Posted by Brill_

Problem is people are taking the meta as gospel and think it is the only way to do things.
1. Is WHM viable for savage? Yes(well, I hope so, if they are not, then SE really messed up)
2. Is WHM efficient for savage? That answer appears to be no.

Just because it's not part of the most efficient party make up does not mean WHM can't succeed at savage. Reality is, there are 3 healers, since you only need 2 for a raid, one of the healers will always be the odd jobs out. Effecient and viable are separate things. People think the most efficient party setup is the ONLY setup that will work, that's just not the case.

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also have u looked at the tanks they seem to be pretty close in comparison to the healers , nobody is complaining about palidan changes, but yet here we are page after page of complaints on whm

I don't think people are overreacting to WHM too soon. The WHM backlash is basically a time bomb that has been waiting to explode since 3.0 or, for some, even earlier.

There was an excellent post a while back equating the WHM to the children's book The Giving Tree. I would look for a link to said post, but I fear it has probably been buried somewhere in the giant 134 page (and growing) consolidated WHM feedback thread on the healer forum. I feel it represents many feelings well. WHM has given to other jobs and given to other jobs. Holy was nerfed (which was actually its second time getting nerfed) -- a feeling many scholars are now empathizing with since Bane is now getting hit this patch.

With protect entering the cross-role ability and stoneskin removed, White Mages no longer have a native mitigation skill or shield until level 66 which will make it more difficult for pre-50 white mages leveling up. And even at level 66, this ability requires us to have lilies and consumes them. AST and SCH have full access to theirs.

In its currently proposed state, at level 70, WHM has access to 25 skills, if you consolidate stone and aero that leaves 21. That includes fluid aura which lost its damage component so a WHM would never use it in 50+ content because most mobs are AoE'd post 50 and you don't want to break a mob from the pack and you can't use it for fast damage on bosses anymore. It also includes Repose which, while nice in low level content also sees itself useless post 50 because of the exact same reason. This leaves a white mage with 19 skills that they're actually going to use, +10 potential cross role abilities for a total of 29.

Scholars, consolidating broil and bio, will have access to 25 skills, + 8 Fairy buffs/Abilities (that includes the Fey tether) from Selene and Eos + the 10 cross roles for a total of 43.

Astrologians, consolidating Malefic and Combust, have access to 24 + 8 card effects + 10 cross roles for a total of 42.

That alone is a huge difference. And sure, I hear you, some of those abilites are used to access the effects of others (draw/royal road for cards, summon for faeries), but at least those actions that bring about more actions exist for those two jobs. White mage has nothing that gives it access to more abilities or spells and this is where a lot of the SCH and AST utility comes from.

The vast majority of our 60+ abilities rely on this lily system which is not only RNG at 20%, but it only affects 2 spells: cure and cure II. In most situations, a WHM is not likely to use these spells on targets other than the tank. Yet our level 70 ability also relies on cure and cure II to stack confessions on a target to heal them even more. Most casts of cure or cure II are going to heal your target fully or very nearly full so this extra giant heal really has no use other than on a tank who is constantly getting healed. And the lilies that we generate are most likely going to be consumed at inopportune times as we will want to use Assize, Asylum and Tetra when they're up and they will all eat our lilies to lower their cooldown timers, making it awkward to save them up. All in all it's a bad system that punishes us from using the tools we have at our disposal.

As far as healing goes, AST with its 10% bonus from Diurnal Sect (15% from noct) can now heal better than a WHM and, if I'm not mistaken, shield better than a SCH while still providing excellent party buffs and utility. While these numbers may go down, keep in mind: we're at 13 days until Stormblood early access... or is it just open beta now? Numbers being this far out of whack does not bode well for launch day.

So when confronted to these proposed "Balanced" healers that we were promised-- remember this was supposed to be THE reason healers and tanks weren't getting new jobs this expansion so they could focus on balance-- the pent up frustration is now bursting out. So are WHMs overreacting? No. I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

I don't think people are overreacting to WHM too soon. The WHM backlash is basically a time bomb that has been waiting to explode since 3.0 or, for some, even earlier.

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well said so well said

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

So when confronted to these proposed "Balanced" healers that we were promised-- remember this was supposed to be THE reason healers and tanks weren't getting new jobs this expansion so they could focus on balance-- the pent up frustration is now bursting out. So are WHMs overreacting? No. I don't think so.

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This. What you said about this backlash from WHMs being a time bomb since 3.0 is also very much right. I do hope we'll at -least- get some feedback as to why developers have designed the Lily system as such. As it was repeatedly said hundreds of times since the embargo lift and assessment of the changes, good healers never relied on Cure/Cure II (and their other class counterparts) in the duration of ARR+HW unless something went grievously wrong. Maybe we'll get feedback from Yoshida or someone soon. There's still a couple of weeks for an explanation I guess.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

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IMO, Giving AST access to regen and shields was the first mistake SE made. If they based the job around direct heals, mobility, and their cards, WHM would have retained its identity through HoTs, and SCH through its shields. The way they designed AST is just going to make balancing the existing healers and creating new unique healers difficult.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

This. It's kind of ironic. The people that SHOULD be mad are the ones being as constructive and detailed about why this new system doesn't work as possible, while the people who don't care are extremely bitter and aggressive to the people complaining.

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Did you not see the other 5 threads on the general discussion forum before they were merged sometime earlier today into the 130+ page thread on the healer forum?

People are over-reacting because (raiders) have just been told that they have not been playing WHM the way Yoshi-P designed it to be played. Now they want to complain that "nobody plays that way" when that is untrue, and that other healers (AST and SCH) have more utility. So clearly they want to be playing AST then. WHM doesn't need to become AST.

The two primary complaints that everyone appears to be on the same page for mentioned at some point:

1) Removal of CS stance dancing - It was horrible, we all know it. The only reason it persisted since V1.0 was to allow CNJ/WHM to not be gimped in solo content, and even then you've never been required to use it, just combat takes 4 times longer without it. So this change removes the illogical reason of it existing in the first place.

2) RNGesus based Proc generation is still bad - Even if you play WHM now, Proc's are 15% or 20%, and very common if you use Cure I/Cure II as intended. But because you are relying on seeing that Freecure to cast Cure II, sometimes you're just going to cast Cure II because freecure is there, and sometimes you're going to cast Cure II without because that is what's called. That is not logical at all. Even Medica has a proc, and people forget that it exists because the amount of overhealing medica II creates. So if you're not using the skills frequently, you forget that the Proc's exist.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

People are over-reacting because (raiders) have just been told that they have not been playing WHM the way Yoshi-P designed it to be played. Now they want to complain that "nobody plays that way" when that is untrue, and that other healers (AST and SCH) have more utility. So clearly they want to be playing AST then. WHM doesn't need to become AST.

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I guess people were overreacting when they said they didn't want to play BRD the way Yoshi intended them to, as well. Those fools, what were they thinking complaining about that change would get them?

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I guess people were overreacting when they said they didn't want to play BRD the way Yoshi intended them to, as well. Those fools, what were they thinking complaining about that change would get them?

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On the bright side... you can look forward to WHM being fixed in 2yrs then, if we're using BRD as a the gauge.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I played AST from day one and it was perfectly capable of healing roulette content before all the buffs. People whined and AST got crazy buffs. Now here we are....

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What SE givith, can taketh away. I'm just surprised they continue to givith to AST :p

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

They have been attempting to balance healers for two years and have failed considerably. That does not instill much faith, especially since they seem determined not to nerf things like Balance.

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Yeah that is why my faith in them is low. I am happy they are trying to make up for it for 4.0 but...

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

A self defeating system. Beautiful.

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When you get something like this, it shows they only see the small details and not the effect it has on the full picture. Some people wanna play full healer, so they did this to whm. The issue is people do not want this outside a few select people that thank healers shouldn't DPS. For anyone remotely serious about things will just take SCH and AST only. Also if they saw the big picutre, they would not make this self defeating system. I just remembered something from wow. Every time you casted a lightning bolt you got a stack, then when you got 11 stacks you could unleash a huge earthshock (or w/e it was) Why can't they do this for healing? 10 tics of regen/medica = lily. casting 5 cure Is = lily, casting 3 cure IIs = lily, casting 2 cure III=s lily ( so lets say you need 10 "stacks for a lily, a regen tic is 1 stack, a cure I is 2 stacks, a cure II is 3 stacks, (so more like 3 cure IIs + cure I) casting cure III =5 stacks ( so 2 cure IIIs is lily) [adjust exact numbers ofc, just trying to show what I had in mind)

why can't they make a no rng system like that? and don't they play wow????

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

IMO, Giving AST access to regen and shields was the first mistake SE made. If they based the job around direct heals, mobility, and their cards, WHM would have retained its identity through HoTs, and SCH through its shields. The way they designed AST is just going to make balancing the existing healers and creating new unique healers difficult.

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I think you hit the nail on the head. I never played AST before until very recently, I've been playing SCH since it was introduced to the game. Given, I was just messing around in PotD but I was like, "Wow, AST gets card buffs, regens, AND shields??? No wonder they're the popular healer."

...Admittedly I'm not that creative but I have a very hard time imagining SE being able to even make another healing class that people would prefer over AST.

And hell, AST is looking so good I might main that in Stormblood instead of SCH! They get cooler AF gear too.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

On the bright side... you can look forward to WHM being fixed in 2yrs then, if we're using BRD as a the gauge.

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BRD wasn't even broken it's arguably the best DPS in the game right now, people were just butthurt about in being different then 2.0 and honestly with the changes I am worried about bard being potentially being underwhelming now they decided to completely change it.

WHM needs an overhaul but instead got a bunch of new abilities they won't be using if playing the job optimally

I think one of the reasons is, that people expect the "UI element" mechanic to be something central and exciting. But that does not have to be the case. The UI element of Astro for example is just another way to display your cards, wow. Isn't the SCH UI element wasted, too, if you don't need the fairy-tether if a asp. benefic is up and normal fairy healing is enough?

First listed kill in FFlogs for Manipulator (A4S) lists the WHM with 33 Cure and 20 CureII. And even rank 2 group for A4s in 3.0 had a WHM with 23 Cure, 28 Cure2. Just saying. We have to see how that works out in newer raids.

Oh noes, WHM will get "worse" with gear progression. That's always true for at least one tank, one healer and 1-2 dps. Get over it. Gear is shared (except weapon).
Personal attraction to a job, but still wanting to do "the most optimal choice"? Good luck.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

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You bring a very good point with the thought about the "UI element" mechanic shouldn't necessarily be such a central thing for a class to function properly. But I think people are just disappointed that the other 2 healers got new things they could use as they gain the resources for it naturally from how they have always been played. For WHMs or also for other healers, the Cure/Cure II's use for raids and such is definitely there of course, but again, I think folks were just pointing out that there's also content aside from that where you need not use it so frequently or much at all. When other healers could use their new stuff and have fun using it without needing very specifically designed encounters for them is where the Lily system (and to some extent, Plenary Indulgence) seems to fail imo.


*edited: added PI

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

I played AST from day one and it was perfectly capable of healing roulette content before all the buffs. People whined and AST got crazy buffs. Now here we are....

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BLM is capable of healing some roulette content. This is an OBSCENELY poor measure of a classes' actual ability to perform their role.

I'm not a hardcore raider anyways...so, why would i care what those people say? OHNOES META WHM BAD and all the sheep follows the herd blindly. Most of them don't even raid too, but they want to follow the tier list like some unskilled player on a fighting game who just want good w/l by using a zoning character.



Like seriously, grow a spine and play what you want. Raiding scene is a joke.

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Originally Posted by RubenSnizzle

I'm not a hardcore raider anyways...so, why would i care what those people say?

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Well, if you're not a raider you don't even need a job stone - the content is do-able with classes only, most of it even fairly easily. Balance is none of your concerns, move along, let those who it concerns be concerned about it.

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Originally Posted by RubenSnizzle

I'm not a hardcore raider anyways...so, why would i care what those people say? OHNOES META WHM BAD and all the sheep follows the herd blindly. Most of them don't even raid too, but they want to follow the tier list like some unskilled player on a fighting game who just want good w/l by using a zoning character.

Like seriously, grow a spine and play what you want. Raiding scene is a joke.

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Ugh, this again.

For the last freaking time, this is not just some raider-exclusive complaint. This affects all WHMs regardless of skill level. To deny it as such only displays how short-sighted you are.

The fact of the matter is, the lily system as it currently is could be largely ignored by WHMs, and WHM players likely wouldn't feel a difference at all. At best, it'd only provide a minimal bonus to cooldowns every few minutes. That's pretty bad. I'm not even sure how people can justify this at all, because when you compare WHM's system to literally every other job, it becomes blatantly obvious that WHM drew the short end of the stick in the design department. Did you know what else drew that stick last expansion? Bard suddenly being slapped with a casting mechanic blatantly copy pasted from Machinist, with nothing besides Straighter Shot and Barrage being adjusted to fit the new direction. And NOBODY defended that besides the elitist raiders you rail against, because suddenly Bard is unplayable to casual players. Why are WHMs any different to you guys?

And this is coming from someone that only started playing FFXIV after HW release, so I never got to experience ARR Bard at endgame - and I am actually one of the few slightly saddened by the Bard overhaul as one of the few people that has mastered HW Bard and knows how arguably broken Bards actually are when played optimally, but knows how badly designed HW Bard is at the end of the day and that it's a necessary sacrifice for the future of the game.

To me, this has nothing to do with raider concerns, this is just purely insulting from a design standpoint. Class balance doesn't exist in a freaking vacuum, it has implications far beyond the mere enjoyment of one person playing the job. Class balance is intricately tied to content balance, and stumbling this badly before release does not bode well for how content difficulty may be scaled. You also must take into consideration, many players here have experience from other MMOs - some may have seen something like this happen in their previous games, and have witnessed the aftermath on their communities. I'm sure I don't have to bring up Dragon Nest again, literally everyone in my circle of friends that migrated to FFXIV from that game are baffled that the FFXIV devs could ever come close to making the same mistake that decimated the healer community there. It's a near exact mirror of what happened there, and it has shaken our confidence - and three of us were actually former official forum moderators for that game, and we had to watch it happen. I'll be damned if I see the same happening in this game without fighting as hard as I did back then for a game and its developers that didn't deserve such passion, compared to the FFXIV devs who have shown that they will admit to their mistakes and actually care.

It's not too soon. Since they have all the skills laid out it's easy to see how WHM will under perform. Not to mention how much better skills AST and SCH received

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Originally Posted by RubenSnizzle

I'm not a hardcore raider anyways...so, why would i care what those people say? OHNOES META WHM BAD and all the sheep follows the herd blindly. Most of them don't even raid too, but they want to follow the tier list like some unskilled player on a fighting game who just want good w/l by using a zoning character.



Like seriously, grow a spine and play what you want. Raiding scene is a joke.

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I like how you call attention to being a huge scrub at fighting games here.

Actually good players wouldn't even care. It's about the win. Meta is only useful in how it lets you understand how to improve. Focus, on, results.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

They are actually used fairly often, but I don't think it's anywhere near as much as you're trying to imply it is. Hell, I think when I get back home tomorrow, I'll go bump this thread and fire up a stream of my WHM in EX/60 roulette, and everyone will get to watch how often someone that only sub-mains WHM at best actually casts those skills - while noting everything else I do to actually minimize the amount of times I have to cast Cure I/II.

Let me repeat that again: note EVERYTHING ELSE I use to minimize the amount of times I have to cast Cure I/II. This is worth quoting repeatedly.

They might get more usage in raids, but the other point is, there's nothing a WHM can do that the other two healers can already provide with even more side bonuses.

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I'm making good on my promise to stream my roulettes as a WHM, not in premades as I don't roll with that. Can't really improve and adapt if you're only playing with the same people every time.

This will probably only go for about 40 minutes as of the time of posting this, unless for some reason you want to watch me potentially Bard afterwards too.

https://www.twitch.tv/saitohikari

It's amusing when people who are very obviously casual players (nothing wrong with being a casual player, games are about having fun after all) try to act like they have any grounds in the debate about WHM in 4.x. The job will probably be fine in the story content and whatnot, but it is very obviously a dead job for Savage/Extreme content and beyond. Anyone who actually does that content can see that with but a single glance at the new buttons and mechanics of the job.

Here's that stream recording of myself on WHM. The amount of times I end up casting Cure I/II in both dungeons are probably somewhere in the single digits. In the first run, I use a couple casts to trigger Divine Veil rather than actually casting it for the healing. (And ignore the second half of the video, that's just me screwing around as a Bard.)

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149226710

My reaction speed as a WHM isn't as sharp as it used to be... The last time I probably played WHM was a full month ago.

Admittedly, the amount of times I have to cast Cure I/II is drastically cut down by the amount of Holy stuns I inflict. Holy isn't just a nuke, it's a defensive measure too, the stuns prevent standard mobs from going after other party members with AoEs. It's far more efficient to Holy stun the Blazes than using two Medica/II to heal the party-wide damage afterwards.

And this goes into why the lily system as it currently is may as well just be ignored entirely in most situations during SB.

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Originally Posted by kattzkitti

It's amusing when people who are very obviously casual players (nothing wrong with being a casual player, games are about having fun after all) try to act like they have any grounds in the debate about WHM in 4.x. The job will probably be fine in the story content and whatnot, but it is very obviously a dead job for Savage/Extreme content and beyond. Anyone who actually does that content can see that with but a single glance at the new buttons and mechanics of the job.

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And once again, while I agree with your overall message, THIS IS NOT A FREAKING HARDCORE VS CASUAL argument. This crap affects EVERYONE.

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Originally Posted by Khaidal

Did you really just insinuate that casuals have no say in this subject? Just because someone's not a hardcore raider doesn't mean they can't be upset if the job is no longer fun to play.

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Your response does not follow. They are speaking of the casual people who think it's fine, because casuals are less likely to care. They're probably going to play the job anyway whether the job is good or not. So them defending it saying " the sky isn't falling" doesn't exactly count because their view is one of not caring. Thing is, the sky is falling, they just don't care if it falls.

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...62/640/658.png

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

And once again, while I agree with your overall message, THIS IS NOT A FREAKING HARDCORE VS CASUAL argument. This crap affects EVERYONE.

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Except it really doesn't. There isn't going to be much change to non-Savage/Extreme content in the way the job plays. You're still just going to hit Medica II with a Regen on the tank, then pop Holy or Aero into Stone depending on the pull size. Meanwhile, in Savage/Extreme content, the WHM is objectively worse off for these changes... and they were already a job that was hated on in 3.x.

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Originally Posted by Khaidal

Did you really just insinuate that casuals have no say in this subject? Just because someone's not a hardcore raider doesn't mean they can't be upset if the job is no longer fun to play.

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Refer to my response to the other quoted post.

Deleted the post. My apologies, Kattz Kitti, I took it out of context.

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Originally Posted by Bigcat9715

Is it just me or are people overreacting to WHM too soon?

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Yes, they are.

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Originally Posted by kattzkitti

Except it really doesn't. There isn't going to be much change to non-Savage/Extreme content in the way the job plays. You're still just going to hit Medica II with a Regen on the tank, then pop Holy or Aero into Stone depending on the pull size. Meanwhile, in Savage/Extreme content, the WHM is objectively worse off for these changes... and they were already a job that was hated on in 3.x.

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I'm about as casual as it gets and I'm going to feel the loss of stoneskin and am peeved that I now must pray to RNGesus to pull off two of my new skills. Learning to play with the new changes shouldn't equal ignoring them.

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Originally Posted by Keridwyn

I'm about as casual as it gets and I'm going to feel the loss of stoneskin and am peeved that I now must pray to RNGesus to pull off two of my new skills. Learning to play with the new changes shouldn't equal ignoring them.

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MCHs the world wide laugh at your complaint about RNG for skills that aren't even going to be primary casts. Yes, I'm just poking fun at you, don't take it seriously.

Well, I'll probably jump to a hasty conclusion, but I'll say that WHM will be very viable in solo-healing content like the did back in the times of ARR (looks at the videos of ARR EX Primal solo heals, with most being WHMs).

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

Well, I'll probably jump to a hasty conclusion, but I'll say that WHM will be very viable in solo-healing content like the did back in the times of ARR (looks at the videos of ARR EX Primal solo heals, with most being WHMs).

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Apparently not. From what I'm getting, for solo-healing, AST will be stronger. I could be misinterpreting but that's what I'm hearing.