Only one dungeon in odd numbered patches

Sorry for the misinformation, I was going by the patch notes on Gamerescape which does not have anything listed for 3.4.

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Originally Posted by Moomba33

We didn't have any patches without dungeons in ARR.

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This is what's amazing. I don't understand how people can't see we're not losing content. 15 dungeons vs 10 dungeons vs 7 dungeons at the end of a game cycle. What amazing content do they think they're going to make to make up for losing more than half the dungeons we got in ARR?

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

This is what's amazing. I don't understand how people can't see we're not losing content. 15 dungeons vs 10 dungeons vs 7 dungeons at the end of a game cycle. What amazing content do they think they're going to make to make up for losing more than half the dungeons we got in ARR?

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Because dungeons are not the only content. If you want to say "we are losing dungeon content" well then yeah, that is 100% true, but that doesn't necessarily mean less overall content. We will have to wait and see. :)

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Originally Posted by Aramina

Because dungeons are not the only content. If you want to say "we are losing dungeon content" well then yeah, that is 100% true, but that doesn't necessarily mean less overall content. We will have to wait and see. :)

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Go back to the post I just made on the last page. I showed you all the major content we got. HW was less than ARR and SB looks to be even less than HW. I don't understand what they could possibly add to make up for all the content they've cut since ARR.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

Go back to the post I just made on the last page. I showed you all the major content we got. HW was less than ARR and SB looks to be even less than HW. I don't understand what they could possibly add to make up for all the content they've cut since ARR.

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Because you (and many others in here) are falsely equivocating one piece of content as being equal in dev time and resources to another. Sure, it could be easy as pie to reskin two dungeons and produce a third brand new one. It may not be so easy to design something like Palace of the Dead, or Diadem, or Gold Saucer, or Lord of Verminion. At least not in a three month patch cycle.

But no one cares about putting thought or consideration into these things.

Personally, even if the content winds up being unpopular or no one wants to do it, I'd still rather they try and give us more options for content.

Or does farming dungeons every single day sound appealing to you?

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

Go back to the post I just made on the last page. I showed you all the major content we got. HW was less than ARR and SB looks to be even less than HW. I don't understand what they could possibly add to make up for all the content they've cut since ARR.

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that post just keeps saying STUFF when we don't know what STUFF is.

the only thing i felt HW lacked from ARR were trials for Hildebrand quests. and unfortunately Diadem failed, the rest of the stuff we got seemed comparable considering it's an expansion.

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Originally Posted by Kuroneko_Jutah

easy to design something like Palace of the Dead, or Diadem, or Gold Saucer, or Lord of Verminion.
Or does farming dungeons every single day sound appealing to you?

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Out of your examples, the only two that you stated would take time to design are Gold Saucer and Lord of Verminion. Gold Saucer came out in ARR so it shows they could do all of this if they wanted to. PotD is a pretty easy thing to design. It's a procedural generated dungeon with reused assets that change hue depending on what floor you're on. Can't really figure out how long Diadem took, but I'd rather have more dungeons than a piece of content that no one runs because at least roulettes won't get so mind numbing so quickly. Not to mention, they're the ones who made the design where I have to farm the same thing every day. It's either PotD (one of the worst to farm in terms of excitement) or ARR (for tomestones to do my relic) or something else that gets grinding quickly.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

that post just keeps saying STUFF when we don't know what STUFF is.

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The only part of the post that says Stuff is the 4.0 part. There's no way to know what the content is for 4.x because they haven't given us any roadmap. I did show you what we got in 2.x and 3.x. So read the entire post instead of focusing on one thing.

A dungeon is a dungeon is a dungeon. I don't care what color you paint it, how many pretty flowers you add, it's still a dungeon, the same as the dungeon before it. I really don't consider dungeons to be new content. It's just old content with a new coat of paint.

I don't feel like we're losing content at all. We're still getting dungeons.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

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Do you speak from any experience in development at all? I'm legitimately curious, because it all sounds like armchair game dev talk to me.

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Originally Posted by Kuroneko_Jutah

But no one cares about putting thought or consideration into these things.

Or does farming dungeons every single day sound appealing to you?

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Diadem was "made" twice, on both attempts it died in few days, Palace of the Dead.. eeh, I guess - wiped few times on 180 floors and left it there. As for Gold Saucer (+ Lord of Verminion), those minigames might not even exist for me, I don't play them.

Dungeons is part of daily schedule, and repeating same dungeon instead of having variety is awful.

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Originally Posted by Anzaman

Diadem was "made" twice, on both attempts it died in few days, Palace of the Dead.. eeh, I guess - wiped few times on 180 floors and left it there. As for Gold Saucer (+ Lord of Verminion), those minigames might not even exist for me, I don't play them.

Dungeons is part of daily schedule, and repeating same dungeon instead of having variety is awful.

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But what if we - gasp - didn't have to run dungeons over and over again? What if there was something else that wasn't linear hallways full of trash > boss > trash > boss > trash > boss with different skins on them?

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Originally Posted by Kuroneko_Jutah

Do you speak from any experience in development at all? I'm legitimately curious, because it all sounds like armchair game dev talk to me.

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Figures you'd say that. Sorry, I'm not a triple AAA dev, but it's pretty obvious to anyone that something that reuses assets would be easier and quicker to make than something completely new.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

Figures you'd say that. Sorry, I'm not a triple AAA dev, but it's pretty obvious to anyone that something that reuses assets would be easier and quicker to make than something completely new.

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It adds completely new game mechanics, things that weren't in the game at all. Dungeons just use existing game mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Kuroneko_Jutah

But what if we - gasp - didn't have to run dungeons over and over again? What if there was something else that wasn't linear hallways full of trash > boss > trash > boss > trash > boss with different skins on them?

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Well, I happen to like dungeons. :p

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

It adds completely new game mechanics, things that weren't in the game at all. Dungeons just use existing game mechanics.

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What exactly was the new game mechanics? Pomanders? So basically using an item and getting a status effect is a new game mechanic? Dungeons at least added in new assets, new monsters, new flair, and some new game mechanics. PotD borrows everything.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

Dungeons at least added in new assets, new monsters, new flair, and some new game mechanics. PotD borrows everything.

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I'd still rather run potd with one competent friend while barely paying attention than run the vault over and over again with 3 random, often incompetent morons in outdated gear with a 30minute queue time to get in.

But I find dungeons boring, repetitive, and time-consuming if you go on your own, even if you queue as tank (since there's no guarentee that you'll get a healer/dps that are geared enough for the run not to take 30 minutes). I don't even care if all they release is a new gold saucer minigame honestly, dungeons can go die in a fire. They're boring, pointless outside of tome grinds, don't use anything that harder content hasn't already done, and after you've run them once for the story (which is usually pretty good, admittedly) may as well sit there and rot.

Obviously, this is my own subjective opinion. Some people love dungeons. Some people prefer potd. But you can't go "SE IS RUINING ALL CONTENT EVER" because you, personally, only love dungeons and don't bother with the rest.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

What exactly was the new game mechanics? Pomanders? So basically using an item and getting a status effect is a new game mechanic? Dungeons at least added in new assets, new monsters, new flair, and some new game mechanics. PotD borrows everything.

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Pomanders which all give effects that we've never had before, accursed hoard, weapon and armor aether, Cairn of Passage/Cairn of Return, monster patrol pathing through the whole dungeon, procedural generation, the save system. Need I go on?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Interesting bit of information that was brought up in MrHappy's podcast. Apparently, dungeons will be reduced to one in odd numbered patches due to additional content. My best guess is PotD's overall success for speed leveling has made the devs see dungeons as redundant. Either way, this could be good if PotD gets more mechanics to it or this supposed "brand new, never before seen," content pans out.

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So basically we get a new Verminion every other patch while the staple content that does work gets reduced ?
Impressive, how hard they're trying to shoehorn people into raiding.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

The only part of the post that says Stuff is the 4.0 part. There's no way to know what the content is for 4.x because they haven't given us any roadmap. I did show you what we got in 2.x and 3.x. So read the entire post instead of focusing on one thing.

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i did read your whole post, did you read mine. i focused on the one thing that matter.

"HW was less than ARR and SB looks to be even less than HW. I don't understand"

Yes, it's very obvious you don't understand.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

Dungeons at least added in new assets, new monsters, new flair, and some new game mechanics. PotD borrows everything.

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please start listing the new monsters, new flair and new mechanics from Sohm Al (Hard) and Baelsar's Wall.

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Originally Posted by Mirateski

Obviously, this is my own subjective opinion. Some people love dungeons. Some people prefer potd. But you can't go "SE IS RUINING ALL CONTENT EVER" because you, personally, only love dungeons and don't bother with the rest.

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Your subjective opinion is basically based on the fact that you want to grind without paying attention. That's it. How is that ever a good game mechanic? Not only that, but it promotes bad behavior by making it easier for people to level classes, but not actually learn them.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

Pomanders which all give effects that we've never had before, accursed hoard, weapon and armor aether, Cairn of Passage/Cairn of Return, monster patrol pathing through the whole dungeon, procedural generation, the save system. Need I go on?

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I think you need to learn what new mechanics are vs what re-purposed mechanics are.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

I think you need to learn what new mechanics are vs what re-purposed mechanics are.

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So how about all those old Coil mechanics that got re-purposed for Heavensward dungeons, eh?

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

please start listing the new monsters, new flair and new mechanics from Sohm Al (Hard) and Baelsar's Wall.

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New flair is the dungeons themselves. Not to mention the new assests that were used and the new bosses that were featured. Not every dungeon is going to be a ground breaking innovation, but to say that they don't provide anything new to the game is plain wrong.
It also appears that you can't read my whole posts as you seem to enjoy just finishing half my posts. HW had less content that ARR. SB looks to have even less at the moment. There's nothing false in that statement unless they post a roadmap.

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Originally Posted by Kuroneko_Jutah

So how about all those old Coil mechanics that got re-purposed for Heavensward dungeons, eh?

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Yes, but are you also assuming that Heavensward dungeons are just all copies of Coil?

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

Your subjective opinion is basically based on the fact that you want to grind without paying attention. That's it. How is that ever a good game mechanic? Not only that, but it promotes bad behavior by making it easier for people to level classes, but not actually learn them.

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for some (not all, admittedly) classes, I actually find potd quite useful for getting used to lv60 rotations before I get there. It's near-impossible to maintain enochian and botd in potd due to the low hp, staggered nature of mobs in there, but ninja for example I've been able to get quite used to the vast majority of the lv60 toolkit whilst starting at a piddling lv31.

People not learning classes because they level in potd are lazy, it's not potd's fault they can't be bothered to read tooltips. dragging out the levelling process just means you'll see that icemage that still switchees between astral and umbral by hardcasting fire1 in the dungeon 3 times over, instead of 1.

Also, I can't think of a single dungeon mechanic outside of possibly that godawful second boss in stone vigil HM that's been new. They've all previouosly come from raids. Just because they're new to the non-raiding scene doesn't mean they're new from a development perspective.

edit - in addition, basically all meaningful content is accessed at max level now, outside of the story contained in job quests and maybe lv50 stuff if you want to do it synched. Why WOULDN'T you want to get there as quickly and painlessly as possible?

edit2: I thought of one! Neverreap has new mechanics in the awful first and second bosses. Find me someone that enjoys neverreap unironically.

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

Yes, but are you also assuming that Heavensward dungeons are just all copies of Coil?

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Not in the least. I'm saying they're all copies of each other (and half of them are reskins of older dungeons to boot) and they're depressingly linear. And - this is less a mark on dungeon development and more an indictment of the playerbase for enforcing speedrun mentailty - not much reason to stop and smell the roses during a run to appreciate these "new" dungeons.

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Originally Posted by Mirateski

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It's not just mechanics that the dungeons brings. They bring a ton of new assets. This includes the Hard Mode dungeons. From new monsters to new ideas that we eventually see re-purposed other places. Some mechanics are also designed alongside the raiding and they come at the same time with the raid mechanic usually being a bit more difficult. This gives the player and easy version to practice before a harder version they take on at a later point.

It's PotD's fault. Not only does it get them up to 60, they can now get a free weapon and buy some PvP gear to get into the Expert Roulette in which they'll do horrible because they never learned how to play their character. Even if you were to read the tooltips, that doesn't mean you'd know how to play the class. You now have to worry about positionals and other things that PotD doesn't really have. PotD is basically 4 people or so hitting something until it dies. You don't need to pump out any real dps.

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Originally Posted by Kuroneko_Jutah

Not in the least. I'm saying they're all copies of each other (and half of them are reskins of older dungeons to boot) and they're depressingly linear. And - this is less a mark on dungeon development and more an indictment of the playerbase for enforcing speedrun mentailty - not much reason to stop and smell the roses during a run to appreciate these "new" dungeons.

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Being desperately linear doesn't mean that they're not bringing new stuff to the game. Trust me. I hate how linear and speed-runny dungeons have become. I want them to improve on dungeons. If they were going to make the new dungeons more exciting, I would be fine with less dungeons, but they're not going to do that. They basically said we're doing less dungeons (content) so we can give you more content (but we're not telling you what that could be). If this was something different, it would be unacceptable. You wouldn't pay someone to tell you they're going to do less work, but work super hard on something else, but refuse to tell you what that something else is, but come on, it's totally going to be more work than it was if I was doing the basic work I was providing before.

people can you count?
ARR have more that HW and for now looks like HW will have more that SB. or some one here think they do diadem like thing one more time?
looks like all here forget that ARR added PVP and housing to the game. can some one here tell me why they didn't cut in the 3 dungeons for pvp or housing ?
was the development team so much bigger in 2.x?

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Originally Posted by SonKevin

It's not just mechanics that the dungeons brings. They bring a ton of new assets. This includes the Hard Mode dungeons. From new monsters to new ideas that we eventually see re-purposed other places.

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so why can't you actually list some stuff? Baelsar's Wall looks a like Castrum and most if not all the mobs are Garlean stuff we've seen somewhere else.

the 3 bosses as well?
but the thing is its part of the we not get as much in HW as we get in ARR.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

Baelsar's Wall looks a like Castrum and most if not all the mobs are Garlean stuff we've seen somewhere else.

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afaik, the new mobs in Baelsar's are two of the bosses (the first two, a rework of an ff6 model and that neat spider thing that looks like the cute bots from Ghost in the Shell) and in Sohm Al we had the ochu variants from a past game. Everything else was a reskin, although I suppose they did change the background of Sohm Al from the original and give us a neat music roll?

The Grubal/Antitower things I suppose gave us the mammet variants, but we'd seen mammet enemies in... Halatali HM? so they're just reskins as well. Nothing new in Neverreap, was just hunt mobs and vanu and other reskins. Fractal had... Iksalion? I think that's the first place you see them. Sohr Khai had some very nice stuff in it admittedly, but the only actually new things model-wise were the big fans.


St Mochi's had the final boss. Pharos Sirius had the Construct No.8s. Hullbreaker had Ymir. Xelphatol had a few new ixal enemies. You've got maybe two or three new models per dungeon if you're lucky, no new mechanics save for like one in one dungeon at lv50, and very little lore outside of the allagan dungeons.

They look pretty, but I'm running these things daily for three months. Gonna need a bit more than that.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

so expert roulette on those patches is going to be just one dungeon awesome (hopefully they just add it to the 2 previous ones from the even patches lol).

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Considering they did this to give us Diadem, I am not holding my breath for anything spectacular.

Eeesh...not sure how i feel about this. SE's never been too good at creating lasting side contents, beside PoTD (and obviously the 24-mans/dungeons/raids)

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Originally Posted by Anzaman

Dungeons is part of daily schedule, and repeating same dungeon instead of having variety is awful.

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I don't think I'll ever miss the lack of dungeons. The 24 man raid, trials, and normal raids all offer various ways of getting tomes, and you have such a long time to get them that you can cap easy without doing a single roulette. Personally, I'd rather see more variety of content.

Well, if it's one dungeon per odd patch, all I can hope is that the one dungeon will have mechanically challenging/interesting boss fights. ARR 2.X dungeons had some very boring boss fights (most were just tank and spank with a mechanic that can usually be ignored), 3.X dungeons stepped things up a little bit (but Hullbreaker Isle will always be Dullmaker Aisle), but were still a little face-roll.

One thing I had been hoping for throughout the HW patches was dungeons having some RNG thrown into their paths. One run has you going one way and another run has you go a different way (a roulette within the dungeon), the two paths having different bosses.

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Originally Posted by Archvile78

Eeesh...not sure how i feel about this. SE's never been too good at creating lasting side contents, beside PoTD (and obviously the 24-mans/dungeons/raids)

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the 24 man "raids" are not lasting they are forced just like older dungeons. take the exp/gold/tomes from potd or make it so you cant speed run it (must kill all monsters) and we will see how lasting potd will be.

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Originally Posted by usalia

the 24 man "raids" are not lasting they are forced just like older dungeons. take the exp/gold/tomes from potd or make it so you cant speed run it (must kill all monsters) and we will see how lasting potd will be.

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That would kill all content though if you take out rewards, not just dungeons.

Sigh, so this was the catch. With all the awesome class changes I should've known there would be something to taint it all. Didn't they remove the 3rd dungeon in HW so they could focus on bringing us new content? Yeah, that was a catastrophic waste of resources.

And no, PotD is just as much of a failure as the rest. It's just a convenient failure. The design and gameplay of it is ridiculously low budget copy/paste and overall incredibly boring. It's a struggle not to fall asleep during it. But, it gives the most xp while leveling the fastest so one can't not use it.

Please, PLEASE, SE please at least put this odd number dungeon in the same roulette's as the previous two. It's not a roulette if it's just 1 dungeon.

Sigh, here's to hoping this new "content" turns out better than the last half-arsed content they spat out. I shudder to think what 5.0 will be like at this rate. "We're only putting out 1 dungeon per patch so we can focus on adding new content".

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

That would kill all content though if you take out rewards, not just dungeons.

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Except glamour.

Glamour is the one content people RUN content for.

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Originally Posted by Khaoticsuccubus

And no, PotD is just as much of a failure as the rest. It's just a convenient failure. The design and gameplay of it is ridiculously low budget copy/paste and overall incredibly boring. It's a struggle not to fall asleep during it. But, it gives the most xp while leveling the fastest so one can't not use it.

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I fall asleep in normal dungeons but don't in PotD, so I must disagree.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I fall asleep in normal dungeons but don't in PotD, so I must disagree.

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How? Seriously how do you not fall asleep in the cookie cutter lego block rooms? Not that I'm saying normal dungeon are any more exciting ;P

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Originally Posted by Khaoticsuccubus

How? Seriously how do you not fall asleep in the cookie cutter lego block rooms? Not that I'm saying normal dungeon are any more exciting ;P

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Let's see. I have to decide if I want to go left, right, up, down. I have to decide if I want to go with the rest of the party or explore another part of the map to speed things up. I can kill enemies solo if I run into trouble while I'm separated from my party. I can pull the enemies to the rest of the party to kill them faster. I might hit a trap which I'll have to react to.

Or I could play a normal dungeon and walk in a straight line, hitting things until they die.

I find one fun and not the other.