DPS obsession in farm groups

It's nice and an advantage to have a group with such high DPS but what do you do with it if you cannot perform?

Mechanics > Dps

I'm more amused about PF with "Farm , NO BONUS" when their DPS and their performance are beyond poor. Just take Niddhog ex as an example. The amount of wipes at bombs and nails are something very common...

People should be more focus on mechanics rather than asking for high DPS.

Just throwing this out there.

OP you do realize that most people out there are sick to carry others right ?

In my ZurvEx farm i always find 1 or 2 persons being below average DPS.
I mean, yeah a full lore i270 BRD with 1350 DPS on Zurvan.

LUL

FYI. If people shame others specifically for low DPS you can report them. it's against TOS and they've said they don't really mind them as long as you don't tell others what their dps is like.

As soon as i see someone quote specific DPS's i report them. So far reported about 8 people from Zurvan alone

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

I do have a question. So Zurvan Extreme, 5 dps to skip Soar, Soar does not get skipped. Who's fault is it if it causes a wipe? The group for being unable to stay alive during Soar or the dps for not skipping it?

It's a genuine question. I know who I would consider at fault.

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The former, and only the former. Mechanic skipping is a bonus for performing above and beyond the call of duty. It is not and should not be the bloody standard. Your whole group is trash for being unable to do a mechanic and relying on brute force to bypass it.

God, Zuravan EX is such a godawful fight. I really hope they never allow mechanic skipping again. Yes, I'm triggered. The mentality this battle has created is disgusting.

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Originally Posted by ffchampion

FYI. If people shame others specifically for low DPS you can report them. it's against TOS and they've said they don't really mind them as long as you don't tell others what their dps is like.

As soon as i see someone quote specific DPS's i report them. So far reported about 8 people from Zurvan alone

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Report people for calling out a DPS, but it's ok to put a healer or tank on blast when they don't do their job, right?

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

A community where we call out underperforming people for not putting in as much effort as everyone else? Yes, please!

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No, a community who throw shit to everyone who does nor play perfectly.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

No, a community who throw shit to everyone who does nor play perfectly.

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There's a significant difference between someone who is not the best player/not the best geared and someone who is borderline afking.

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Originally Posted by Atreyu

There's a significant difference between someone who is not the best player/not the best geared and someone who is borderline afking.

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Then. Why a party who do perfectly the mechanics, down the boss, but didn't skip first soar is a bad party? Because that's he problem right now. You can do the fight with no deaths and all perfect without skip soar and people sill will say sucks because no skip soar. That's the thing here.

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

Report people for calling out a DPS, but it's ok to put a healer or tank on blast when they don't do their job, right?

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Normally with Tank/Heal if you are blaming them its due to deaths/wipes. Blaming DPS is for not doing things as quick as you would like. That's the difference here. People not being happy with how quick it is. If a DPS is causing wipes then they should be held accountable. If a DPS is doing low damage then yes mention it. but you don't be a knob and say "you did x amount. git gud" as what i've seen a lot.

EDIT: Also. reason for reporting as well is that it is against the TOS!

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

Then. Why a party who do perfectly the mechanics, down the boss, but didn't skip first soar is a bad party? Because that's he problem right now. You can do the fight with no deaths and all perfect without skip soar and people sill will say sucks because no skip soar. That's the thing here.

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I think that should be up to the party leader and the people who join, to be honest.

If one person creates a party saying that they want to skip soar and they get a ton of people clawing to want to get in and then another person makes a party that says DPS doesn't matter as long as they clear and is a ghost town... well, the community has spoken. Vice versa is also true.

Regardless, if you join group A, then you should be held to the standard that's expected, yes? Just as much as someone who complains about low DPS in party B should be shown the door.

Let's say you're running a normal 2 Tank, 2 Heal set up. And 2 out of 4 of the DPS are pushing high DPS and the other two are barely pushing the bare minimum. It's kind of fair for people to have a moan. Because as soon as you start losing your top DPS, runs take longer, farms take longer and people drop quicker.

I'm not saying you should name or shame but when I've joined groups and I'm out DPSing people by a huge margin and runs are going slow because of this, I won't stay long. I generally won't say anything because I don't wanna moan too much at people about their DPS but I also don't want runs to last longer than they need to. But I'm talking about a huge difference here. Where people aren't even hitting a basic DPS line or if the tank or healer are consistently out DPSing the DPS.

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Originally Posted by ffchampion

Normally with Tank/Heal if you are blaming them its due to deaths/wipes. Blaming DPS is for not doing things as quick as you would like. That's the difference here. People not being happy with how quick it is. If a DPS is causing wipes then they should be held accountable. If a DPS is doing low damage then yes mention it. but you don't be a knob and say "you did x amount. git gud" as what i've seen a lot.

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So you should not point out someone performing poorly waiting for a carry ?
Seems like you're that person cause your posts looks way too salty.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

Welcome to FFXIV in 2017. We have what we deserve, because we didn't stop this people form turn the community into this.

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You're right. Now we're stuck with an increasingly mediocre community because apologists want to give a free pass for a poor performance instead of actually holding players accountable for dragging their groups down.

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

The former, and only the former. Mechanic skipping is a bonus for performing above and beyond the call of duty. It is not and should not be the bloody standard. Your whole group is trash for being unable to do a mechanic and relying on brute force to bypass it.

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I wouldn't really call it a bonus if the sole reason you were going with a specific party comp in the first place was to skip the mechanic. You can argue all day about people being terrible for not knowing how to perform the mechanic properly, but in this particular instance the blame should fall on the damage dealers. If the DPS were doing their jobs properly, the party wouldn't have to deal with the mechanic to being with, regardless of whether or not people knew how to do it. Otherwise, what on earth was the point in going with 1/2/5 or even 1/1/6 if you aren't doing any better than 2/2/4? That's just extra stress and less room for error for no reason in that case.

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Originally Posted by Watachy

So you should not point out someone performing poorly waiting for a carry ?
Seems like you're that person cause your posts looks way too salty.

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Not even a little bit. I have no problem in people saying that DPS is low but you shouldn't identify people and shame them for it. That's exactly why Yoshida doesn't want a parser in this game! In groups i've joined i'd say my DPS is around about the middle i'm not gonna lie and say i'm amazing because i'm still gearing up my 270 stuff at the moment. I don't need a parser to see if i'm dealing enough damage. I can see that from the order of Enmity. if i was the DPS with the most enmity then generally you can tell that you are outputting the most dps. the opposite can be said about being at the bottom of the enmity chart

EDIT: just to clarify since all the issues i've had with people whining about other people's DPS is from Raid Finder.

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Originally Posted by ffchampion

I don't need a parser to see if i'm dealing enough damage. I can see that from the order of Enmity.

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Ok i think i will stop arguing here.

The enmity mark is badly designed since spells like NIN shadows and smoke screen can change it.
You can't say that you're dpsing well just by using this information.

Anyway i would never kick someone for dpsing poorly, i will just ask them to step up or we won't clear the duty.
Why in the first place would you join a farm party if it's to hold down the party ? As i said, too many people are looking for a carry nowadays.

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Originally Posted by Watachy

Anyway i would never kick someone for dpsing poorly, i will just ask them to step up or we won't clear the duty.
Why in the first place would you join a farm party if it's to hold down the party ? As i said, too many people are looking for a carry nowadays.

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Final thing from me: yes i generally look at the enmity marker. However i will not attempt a duty unless i can clear the Stone Sky Sea version of it. If someone can clear that with time remaining then that means that they are able to do the trial. More people just need to be trying stone sky sea before jumping in blind

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Originally Posted by ffchampion

if i was the DPS with the most enmity then generally you can tell that you are outputting the most dps. the opposite can be said about being at the bottom of the enmity chart

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Just want to point our that enmity bar is not the right way to measure your performance because healers can generate lots of hate just by over healing. And some dps jobs can lower their enmity generation :)

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Originally Posted by Yeol

Just want to point our that enmity bar is not the right way to measure your performance because healers can generate lots of hate just by over healing. And some dps jobs can lower their enmity generation :)

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Yeah if i'm doing trials etc i'll always do the Stone Sky Sea first as a dps

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Originally Posted by ffchampion

Not even a little bit. I have no problem in people saying that DPS is low but you shouldn't identify people and shame them for it.

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1) Making a vague statement about low DPS doesn't help anyone even if it's the "nice" way to go about it. You need to identify the people who are underperforming to either encourage them to try harder or to remove them if they continue to be a problem. I guarantee that a lot of the lower performers in this community aren't even aware they're bad because everyone else is too afraid to speak up and tell them (and not without reason, since even as this thread has shown, people being called out even in a nice manner will respond with hostility and threats of reports).

2) The enmity bar is a pretty poor measure of DPS because everyone besides Monk has a way to dump aggro or reduce its generation. I mean, it can kind of be used as a benchmark if you have absolutely no other way of determining output (no DPS class should ever be at the very bottom of the list unless they just died, for example), but there are a lot of mitigating factors that can keep it from being properly representative of actual performance.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

Just want to point our that enmity bar is not the right way to measure your performance because healers can generate lots of hate just by over healing. And some dps jobs can lower their enmity generation :)

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Agreed that's the worst thing you could lookt at.

That would just mean the MT is first DPS lul :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

1) Making a vague statement about low DPS doesn't help anyone even if it's the "nice" way to go about it. You need to identify the people who are underperforming to either encourage them to try harder or to remove them if they continue to be a problem. I guarantee that a lot of the lower performers in this community aren't even aware they're bad because everyone else is too afraid to speak up and tell them (and not without reason, since even as this thread has shown, people being called out even in a nice manner will respond with hostility and threats of reports).

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Or when you say someone to look a guide or something you're called "fu***** elitist" and hurt the "let me play the way i want" argument.

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Originally Posted by Watachy

Agreed that's the worst thing you could lookt at.

That would just mean the MT is first DPS lul :rolleyes:

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Well if you actually looked what i put i did say out of the DPS. not everyone

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

1) I guarantee that a lot of the lower performers in this community aren't even aware they're bad because everyone else is too afraid to speak up and tell them (and not without reason, since even as this thread has shown, people being called out even in a nice manner will respond with hostility and threats of reports).

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To confirm and shame myself a little, I was this player. When I got kicked out of my first party I started to question what I was doing wrong. When I was finally called out is when I started to actually change and now I do better DPS than most of my friends.

Also as a NIN main, enmity bars are complete garbage for determining DPS. Any DPS that can shed hate SHOULD be doing so.

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Originally Posted by ffchampion

Not even a little bit. I have no problem in people saying that DPS is low but you shouldn't identify people and shame them for it.

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Identify yes, shame no. If there are 4 DDs in the party and 1 of them is doing way below the standard (and I do mean standard, not top 3%) for their job, there's nothing wrong with politely telling them they should practice their rotation a bit more before requeueing since they're not up for pulling their own weight in the group yet. After all, we're talking about endgame content here.

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Originally Posted by Taika

Identify yes, shame no. If there are 4 DDs in the party and 1 of them is doing way below the standard (and I do mean standard, not top 3%) for their job, there's nothing wrong with politely telling them they should practice their rotation a bit more before requeueing since they're not up for pulling their own weight in the group yet. After all, we're talking about endgame content here.

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This i agree with (probably should have phrased better) but yes say if one person isn't doing ideal amount of damage for their role. Just don't shame them by physically going "here is everyones DPS. look how crap you did"

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Originally Posted by ffchampion

Well if you actually looked what i put i did say out of the DPS. not everyone

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A SMN, which is outdpsing the 2nd place with 500+ dps might also be on 6-8th place emnitywise. 400-500 dps only generate pet emnity and opener (3-5k burst, depending on group buffs) is halfed with quelling.

Especially if those other players don't use their emnity tools.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

Then. Why a party who do perfectly the mechanics, down the boss, but didn't skip first soar is a bad party? Because that's he problem right now. You can do the fight with no deaths and all perfect without skip soar and people sill will say sucks because no skip soar. That's the thing here.

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A party that can't skip Soar with 6 DPS means that those 6 DPS cannot even perform an adequate opener. Players that can not even do an adequate opener, a very basic function in their chosen class, are bad. A party consisting of bad players is also bad.

Of course the same can be said about a group of people that can do their opener but can't do mechanics.

Then again, if your party doesn't want to skip Soar, which is all fine and good, then just get 2 heals and tanks. Playing with 5-6 DPS makes very little sense if Soar is not skipped anyways.

It's all a matter of perspective and how you look at it: why bring extra DPS players and make the run more cumbersome for tanks/healers if you're not expecting them to carry their weight in the first place?

Whoever reads me here and there, knows I am quite a defender of casual playing, but hey, if I join a farm party I know I'm expected to perform at a given rate. Farming party and learning party are two different things. Joining a farm party expecting a carry is a no go.

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Originally Posted by Mature

It's nice and an advantage to have a group with such high DPS but what do you do with it if you cannot perform?

Mechanics > Dps
I'm more amused about PF with "Farm , NO BONUS" when their DPS and their performance are beyond poor. Just take Niddhog ex as an example. The amount of wipes at bombs and nails are something very common...

People should be more focus on mechanics rather than asking for high DPS.

Just throwing this out there.

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Those are not disjunkctive things. Especially in Zurvan, regarding soar skip, because there are no (real) mechanics up to this point.
Point of this game is to do both: Do (and adjust) your rotation, while doing mechanics.

Also I'm tired of this strawman. Usually a 2,5-3k parsing dps is capable of doing mechanics. What do you even make you think that those people who do a pretty good rotation are also those who fail to do the mechanics? Do you have a parser and recognize that it's always the highest parsing dps that does the mistake? I don't think so.

Also, Mechanics in this game are (usually) easy and so is an average rotation. The only obstacle is to combine both, that is what you want to have in a farm group.
Let's just look at Thordan Ex, a "mechanic heavy" fight. The fact that in the first phase you have to a) dodge an circle AoE (1-2s movement), b) dodge the spread AoE (1s movement), c) turn around once (2s), d) spread and then e) stack shouldn't lower your expected max dps by 30-50%. Period. Not in a farm group (nowadays you don't see all those anymore anyway. But back in the day you could aim for skipping the tankbuster).
And that's Thordan.

We're talking about Zurvan, there are only 2 AoEs and people still lose 50%+ of the expected dps. The only mechanics which have likely a big effect on dps are Broken Seal and Soar itself. The former is later in the fight, the latter is the thing you wanna skip. There is absolutly no excuse in not doing high dps other than "I can't" or "I don't want".
First ones I suggest to do some more kill partys (1 kill is not enough to join a farm usually) and the other ones I'd blackilist.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

Those are not disjunkctive things. Especially in Zurvan, regarding soar skip, because there are no (real) mechanics up to this point.
Point of this game is to do both: Do (and adjust) your rotation, while doing mechanics.

Also I'm tired of this strawman. Usually a 2,5-3k parsing dps is capable of doing mechanics. What do you even make you think that those people who do a pretty good rotation are also those who fail to do the mechanics? Do you have a parser and recognize that it's always the highest parsing dps that does the mistake? I don't think so.

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In party's I've been usually IS the high dps making the "easy" mistakes. Due to the fact the become over confident about the fight that they just don't care.

Plus at the end of the day mechanics is what define the outcome. Once you have the mechanics of the fight sorted the DPS will come into play.

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Originally Posted by Mature

In party's I've been usually IS the high dps making the "easy" mistakes. Due to the fact the become over confident about the fight that they just don't care.

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Most of high parsing dps have their rotation adjusted to "easy" mechanics. Like good ranged will use their movement friendly skills for Biting Halberd, move already into agood spot for Broken Seal, etc. High dps throughout a whole fight happens only if you know and execute every mechanic properly. And high dps player usually know that. If soar happens, it's 5-10s to get to your position, while the boss moves away. I don't think that people mess this up because they are to "confident".

I don't know why people mess this up often, but a correlation with dps is neither fact based, nor likely. I'm sorry to say, but most of the 85th+ percentile people are pretty good at doing mechanics.

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Plus at the end of the day mechanics is what define the outcome. Once you have the mechanics of the fight sorted the DPS will come into play.

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You mean.. like in a farm group, where everybody in there should know the mechanics precisly (like a healer should know that there is almost no incoming unavoidable damage in the 1st phase and he can therefor dps a lot) and therefore has an group dps, which shouldn't let you see soar anyway? :^)
Right.

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Originally Posted by ElHeggunte

I wouldn't really call it a bonus if the sole reason you were going with a specific party comp in the first place was to skip the mechanic. You can argue all day about people being terrible for not knowing how to perform the mechanic properly, but in this particular instance the blame should fall on the damage dealers. If the DPS were doing their jobs properly, the party wouldn't have to deal with the mechanic to being with, regardless of whether or not people knew how to do it. Otherwise, what on earth was the point in going with 1/2/5 or even 1/1/6 if you aren't doing any better than 2/2/4? That's just extra stress and less room for error for no reason in that case.

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Such things should be the exception, not standard. The fact that we are where we are now just shows one of the many things wrong with Zurvan and this community

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

Such things should be the exception, not standard. The fact that we are where we are now just shows one of the many things wrong with Zurvan and this community

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The standard should be everyone playing well. Mechanics and DPS, both. We need to stop giving a free pass to people that can't even outDPS the tank.

Why do people even play the game and not WANT to do as much dps as they possibly can? Is it really more fun to laze ass your rotations?

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Originally Posted by dragonseth07

The standard should be everyone playing well. Mechanics and DPS, both. We need to stop giving a free pass to people that can't even outDPS the tank.

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This I can get behind and support 100% . This "skip soar or disband" garbage, not so much

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Originally Posted by Aquaslash

This I can get behind and support 100% . This "skip soar or disband" garbage, not so much

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And that's where this comes to a head: skipping soar doesn't require top DPS. It requires a proper opener. That's about it.

It's a way of gauging the group DPS immediately, without needing to go through a whole run to see if you're up to snuff.

Everyone acts like Zurvan's soar is the first mechanic SE ever allowed to be skipped with high dps. You can skip like 3 mechs in the first phase alone in Sophia with high dps.

Imho, the reason skipping soar is so important is because people just CAN NOT do the mechanic properly. And most parties cheese the second soar with a tank LB. The git gud should be about the mechanic and not the initial burst dps. Especially in PF or RF.

Save your "Skip soar or disband!" For your static

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Originally Posted by BorisDaBlade

Everyone acts like Zurvan's soar is the first mechanic SE ever allowed to be skipped with high dps. You can skip like 3 mechs in the first phase alone in Sophia with high dps.

Imho, the reason skipping soar is so important is because people just CAN NOT do the mechanic properly. And most parties cheese the second soar with a tank LB. The git gud should be about the mechanic and not the initial burst dps. Especially in PF or RF.

Save your "Skip soar or disband!" For your static

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This remembers me the parties sitting minutes waiting ADS enrage because they miserably fail dealing with Allagan Rot. And call themselves raiders. So funny.

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

This remembers me the parties sitting minutes waiting ADS enrage because they miserably fail dealing with Allagan Rot. And call themselves raiders. So funny.

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Some people can't do Mechanics to save their lives. Some can't do DPS to save their lives. The people who get matched with you in PUGs can't do either. :P

I was in a 5 DPS farm last night, and on one pull, the AST DC'd and we saw Demon Claw.. That was a major wtf.

My group killed Ravana last night before the jump, multiple times. What a feeling. Lots of quick kills. (Still fishing that last whistle for one of our guys.)

On the subject of Zurvan, I should point out, you know, what Zurvan is ACTUALLY for: getting a high-level weapon. Not everyone who farms Zurvan are farming A12S as well - they want to down him for a chance at a weapon, and could care less about birds.

But if they're farming for the weapon, it likely means that they have, at most, a ilvl 255 weapon (if they farmed Sophia) or, if they're newer to endgame, they may only have a Lore weapon upgraded (240) or not (230). Additionally, such newer folks are likely NOT rocking a full set of ilvl 270 Alexander Savage gear - they'll have a mixture of Lore and Scripture gear, some pieces upgraded, others not. They may be awesome at their job, but get a couple of these folks even into a 5-DPS party and you may not skip Soar. While the ilvl 250 entry requirement DOES ensure at least some good pieces of gear, it's certainly possible to have the bulk of higher ilvl gear be armor and accessories, while the weapon is much lower.

In the Novice Network, I frequently hear folks talking about gear progression, and talking about how folks new to endgame should gear up with tomestones, grab their weapon from Zurvan, then go on to other endgame stuff. By the sound of it, these folks are in for a rude surprise when they join a farm party to get their weapon and get the boot because their DPS is low.

Zurvan was added to the game to provide high level weapons to players that don't have them. The birds are a bonus, there to encourage players with better weapons to continue to do the fight and thereby get other folks their weapons. It's fine (even if absolutely not what SE was hoping for) to explicitly build a party that excludes weapon-seekers - but if you just label your group "Farm Party" don't assume you'll be skipping Soar, even if you have five DPS.