[Cash Shop Idea] Game Time Token

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Originally Posted by Felis

We already have game time tokens we buy with real money. They are called Crysta.

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do you even read?

Who determines the price of these tokens? Being each server has different prices on the MB. I could not see that working as people would look to make big gil off it if they wealthy in RL by putting up tokens for like 20 million gil or something like that, um yea no thanks I will just pay my regular sub directly to SE.

The price would be generated based on supply and demand, changing accordingly each hour

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Originally Posted by Enur

The price would be generated based on supply and demand, changing accordingly each hour

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It boggles my mind how you even remotely think that is going to work.

Works for Wow just fine. Prices were unstable for a few days but it was definately worth it in the long run

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Originally Posted by Enur

Works for Wow just fine. Prices were unstable for a few days but it was definatly worth it in the long run

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WoW also has a consolidated auction house. FFXIV is per-server. What's a reasonable price for one server may not be for another.

I see no reason why there couldnt be an extra category, made for tokens and tokens only, which is interserver




Scrap the above. In hindsight that would be a horrible idea, transfer of gil between servers shouldnt happen with large amounts

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Originally Posted by SessionZero

WoW also has a consolidated auction house. FFXIV is per-server. What's a reasonable price for one server may not be for another.

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The price is whatever people are willing to pay for it. This might be more or less buying power on a given server, however if people buy the tokens for an amount of gil without much buying power fewer people will purchase the tokens (not worth it). As less people buy the tokens, the remaining tokens on the market will go up in value (same demand, less supply). As the tokens become worth more gil, more people will buy them and drive the price back down. In short order the player base on that server will have decided how much gil $20 is worth. That numeric value may change from server to server, even the buying power might.

However in all cases it will be what the players of that server have said that $20 token is worth by choosing to buy or not buy them.

this remind me of a song everything you can do i do better.

I think we don't need cash shop game time which can be bought on auction house gil can be made very easy with few days times.

just because wow has something doesn't mean ffxiv need do it too

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Originally Posted by SessionZero

WoW also has a consolidated auction house. FFXIV is per-server. What's a reasonable price for one server may not be for another.

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I would second this, as someone on a very small server I've been told our prices are 2-10 times more than the more populated servers on our datacenter. What may be 10m on say Balmung would cost far more on Zalera.

I have played games with a system like this and was one of those who traded their in game coin for sub fees as it was more beneficial for me. However, I have mixed feelings about the system as around when they were introduced a lot more people were buying runs or high level gear without running content, leading to not being able to base someone's experience by their gear as you never knew if they RMT'd their way through or did it legit. In FFXIV one of the nice things is being able to relatively gauge how experienced someone is by the equipment they have for farms, static recruitments and such. Even on my small server run selling is a thing but only a few can afford to buy runs like that as most of the money belongs to the crafters. If a person without maxed crafters has gear from the latest savage/ex primal it's currently safe to assume they're experienced. With systems like this added I can see people starting to expect an overall higher level of gear in even the simplest things because you can just purchase a run or 10 to gear up with the earnings you get from selling sub time.

On the note of reducing RMT, this game suffers far less from it than many games that have used other systems. For starters, as a pay to play game one has to buy the expansion for and then pay a subscription while being forced (for better or worse) to go through the entirety of the story to unlock content there's a lot less people willing to risk their accounts by buying gil. In other games they either don't link the purchase of the game to the account or it's pathetically easy to get caught back up to where you were should you be caught and banned, especially if you partake in RMT. RMT as it is now is a whole lot of spam but not a whole lot of action, I sincerely doubt that spam will decrease any and there won't be any reasonable change in action either. While it is convenient to be able to purchase sub time through in-game means, I don't feel the benefits outweigh the costs.

This isnt "just a thing from wow we want"

Its a possible and realistic solution to the botting problem

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Originally Posted by Inori-Yuzuriha

[I]FFXIV Tokens provide players with a convenient, secure way to exchange gil for game time directly through the in-game Market.

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Let me just complete your thought here;

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...(and now the unsaid portion): a convenient, secure way to exchange $$ for gil through the Mogstation and in-game Market - aka officially sanctioned RMT.

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No. Definitely not.

I am categorically opposed to selling any item through the cash shop that can be resold in-game for gil, especially an item that is a 'game time' item.

This idea is explicitly an RMT mechanism since you are allowing players to spend $$ in the cash shop in exchange for gil in game.

Absolutely not.

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Originally Posted by Inori-Yuzuriha

do you even read?

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You are asking for sanctioned RMT. Crysta exist already as non currency options for purchasing game time or optional services such as retainers.

All you are doing with this suggestion of yours is legitimizing RMT.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

um yea no thanks I will just pay my regular sub directly to SE.

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You seem confused, this system doesn't replace paying your sub normally, it adds an extra way to play the game, if it was to be implemented you wouldn't be forced to use it.

I kindly refer you to this thread.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...m-in-FFXIV-ARR

I like the idea. It works well for WoW, but they would need to go all out on the botting problem before something like this is implemented. The bots just grind up gil non-stop and it drives up the token price for legit players.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I've mentioned my support for this every time it's come up.

I still support it.

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Of course you do, you have a very healthy bank balance, this would enable you to play for free, so of course you support it.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

What if a person is poor in-game and IRL? :D

In GW2 is pretty much killed bots, it's different because GW2 has no sub, but it allows you to trade real currency for in game cash.

Again i don't see the issue with bots (except them spamming chat), no one is forced to buy from them and people know they can get banned if they buy from Bots.

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The most recent RMT action report banned 20,000 accounts for RMT activity - not advertising. It would seem that SE was able to trace things better thanks to all the enhanced reporting of spams and take out a large number of bot accounts. I agree with you, introducing officially sanctioned RMT is a terrible idea. IMHO, it's also not a solution to RMT since it is RMT in and of itself.

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Originally Posted by Enur

The point of this suggestion is not for benefit of players! Its to kill bots

Easing the finances of some is but a side effect. Not the main goal

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The main goal would seem to be exploiting those with large in-game gil balances for personal enrichment of those purchasing the game time items. Sounds like RMT to me. That's against the Terms and conditions, and I'm pretty sure that this whole topic probably breaks similar rules on the forum. What is it people don't get about this being a suggestion to enable straight up RMT activity by players who want to enrich themselves?

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Originally Posted by Zojha

That's kind of the point - right now, the token would only be bought by rich crafters, because the economy is set up to shove gil from the DoW/DoM classes where it is majorly generated to crafters and from there, it trinkles back to Gatherers and to a limited degree DoW/DoM via crafting materials. Crafters are the gil sponges of the game and this token idea serves only one purpose - to allow crafters to not just sit on that money but actually buy something useful to them with it.

You could just give active crafters a permanent subscription discount, same deal. (Well, and increase the average subscription of a non-crafter in the process to cross-subsidize, someone's got to pay after all)

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Excellently thought out reply, I agree completely. RMT is RMT, and RMT is prohibited.

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Originally Posted by Aldora

Thank you for seeing and acknowledging my concerns and that i dislike it out of principle. I've been trying to get people to see the reasoning behind that. **snip**
We should not address the RMT issue by legalizing it. There is always going to be someone who will abuse the system. This is why i mentioned (on several occasions) that i'm not against gifting game time through the mog station, as long as it cannot be sold for in game currency or bought through it.

I cannot (and never will) agree with any forms of RMT. Truthfully, i also cannot stand it when people condone it for reasons mentioned earlier within this thread. Of course, I've made this known through my posts. This is my honest opinion and i will stand by it.

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I agree with you. Unfortunately being principled seems to be very out of fashion these days, while personal enrichment at the expense of others is very much in fashion.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

You seem confused, this system doesn't replace paying your sub normally, it adds an extra way to play the game, if it was to be implemented you wouldn't be forced to use it.

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I know that, didn't say I thought we be forced into anything. But back to the thread I pretty much would just be legal RMT, people with lot of expendable money can buy tokens to sell for in game money.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I agree with you. Unfortunately being principled seems to be very out of fashion these days, while personal enrichment at the expense of others is very much in fashion.

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This is difficult to respond to because it frames things very vaguely. You say "at the expense of others" without saying who exactly is facing this expense, nor what this expense is. I'd like to better understand exactly who you expect to be harmed and how.


Suppose this system did wind up in place, and we have some players:

John: He has lots of gil but wants even more. He buys a token in the cash shop and sells it, gaining even more gil.
Steven: He has little gil, but wants to have some. He buys a token in the cash shop and sells it, gaining his gil.
Derek: He has lots of gil and does not want to pay his sub. He buys a token from the market board and for a lot of gil and uses it for his sub.
Anthony: He has lots of gil and is content with this. He does not wish to participate in the system and does not buy any tokens with gil.
Robert: He has little gil. He does not wish to participate in the system and does not buy any tokens from the cash shop.
Bill: He has little gil, and wants some. He cannot afford a token in the cash shop and so he grinds it out.
Mike: He has little gil, and wants some. He can afford a token in the cash shop but does not like the system and so chooses to grind it out.
Tom: He has lots of gil and wants even more. He can afford a token in the cash shop but does not like the system and so chooses to grind more out.
Frank: He has lots of gil and wants even more. He can't afford a token in the cash shop and so grinds it out.
George: He has little gil and doesn't want to pay his sub. He can't afford a token on the market board and so pays his sub in to SE as he always has anyway.

Which (if any) of these gentlemen is worse off in the token system than the current one? Why are they worse off?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I am categorically opposed to selling any item through the cash shop that can be resold in-game for gil, especially an item that is a 'game time' item.

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I'm of the opposite mind. I believe that everything that is in the game should be obtainable within the game. If that means buying cash shop items from other players for gil, then that is what I support.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Of course you do, you have a very healthy bank balance, this would enable you to play for free, so of course you support it.

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It's healthy enough. I've stopped trying to make gil for well over a year though. That part of the game is, quite simply, dead to me. Which is a shame because it was one of my favorite parts of the game. But there's just no point to it anymore.

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Originally Posted by Enur

This isnt "just a thing from wow we want"

Its a possible and realistic solution to the botting problem

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Maybe or maybe not. On wow I wouldn't be surprised if there are people that bot farm gold just to buy tokens with. Herbalism bots everywhere in Legion.

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Originally Posted by HPDelron

This is difficult to respond to because it frames things very vaguely. You say "at the expense of others" without saying who exactly is facing this expense, nor what this expense is. I'd like to better understand exactly who you expect to be harmed and how.

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I didn't say anyone would be harmed. I said it was about personal enrichment at the expense of others. Huge difference.

This is a subscription based game and RMT is completely prohibited in this game. Suggesting an RMT option seems to me to go against that very simple and clear rule. Subscription games are different to F2P games because everyone pays a subscription. In essence everyone has a stake in behaving to some extent since they put real money into it. If people can in effect play the game for free because they can use the gil they generate through their normal course of play to pay for game time purchased by someone else, they do not have the same stake in the game, and in fact their only real 'stake' is making more and more gil to finance their subscription.

This request is not about gifting time to friends - which I would support. Instead, it's about creating a mechanism for some players to maximize their gil in game through real money purchases in the Mogstation sold to other players who are wealthy in-game. It's RMT pure and simple. It's against one of the basic rules of the game. Just on principle it is wrong due to that.

It does also exploit those willing to use their game time to generate gil in order to purchase more game time because it funnels their gil to other players to lazy to earn the gil themselves. Making it a pay to win of sorts for those spending real $$ on game time tokens, and they do that by exploiting the players with the gil in-game.

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

I'm of the opposite mind. I believe that everything that is in the game should be obtainable within the game. If that means buying cash shop items from other players for gil, then that is what I support.

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This game time token would be a completely different sort of in-game item though. It's not like the other in game items. I mean, I disagree with the idea of being able to trade/sell cash shop items in-game for gil, as I am sure is obvious. So I disagree with you. But I can see some logic to an all or nothing approach. If it's to be an all or nothing, then I say nothing, and close the Mogstation optional item purchases immediately.

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It's healthy enough. I've stopped trying to make gil for well over a year though. That part of the game is, quite simply, dead to me. Which is a shame because it was one of my favorite parts of the game. But there's just no point to it anymore.

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I understand, and I do apologize for what is a cheap shot.

I knew you were a very active omni-crafter at one time and know that can generate huge amounts of gil. To me this idea is very squarely aimed at letting people who want to make gil in game - without doing what you did - spend $$ in the real world to do so. I dislike that idea. I do respect the ability of many players to craft their way to billions, even if I am a bit envious of it because I really don't have sufficient playing time to match that earning capability...but no matter what people say about market board prices, the point is that you earned the gil you acquired through your effort, and that needs to be respected.

People should earn their stuff, and if they don't want to earn it, then they should deal with the consequences of that.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

In GW2 is pretty much killed bots, it's different because GW2 has no sub, but it allows you to trade real currency for in game cash.

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This. Why do the token thing at all? Just jump straight to the issue and allow people to buy 10 million gil for $20 (about what it's going for, as a quick Google search indicates). Gil sellers and bots will be gone the next day.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

The most recent RMT action report banned 20,000 accounts for RMT activity - not advertising. It would seem that SE was able to trace things better thanks to all the enhanced reporting of spams and take out a large number of bot accounts

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I don't think GMs could ban so many accounts that fast, it might be they developed an automatic system.

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Originally Posted by CocoPuff

This. Why do the token thing at all? Just jump straight to the issue and allow people to buy 10 million gil for $20 (about what it's going for, as a quick Google search indicates). Gil sellers and bots will be gone the next day.

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The trouble with this is that this is essentially printing money. Do you know what happens when you dump a whole load of additional money into an economy? The value of money becomes smaller. Quickly. It's called hyperinflation, and there are numerous, tragic real-life examples of why it's a terrible, terrible idea. Things that you used to be able to buy for a thousand gil now cost a million. The token solution folks are proposing in this thread does not work that way, because at no point along the way is money being created in an abnormal fashion. Players earn gil the same way they always have. Players who buy tokens with real life money then sell those tokens for in-game gil - but this does not generate new gil, it simply passes around the gil that already exists. Hyperinflation does not occur.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

The trouble with this is that this is essentially printing money. Do you know what happens when you dump a whole load of additional money into an economy? The value of money becomes smaller. Quickly. It's called hyperinflation, and there are numerous, tragic real-life examples of why it's a terrible, terrible idea. Things that you used to be able to buy for a thousand gil now cost a million. The token solution folks are proposing in this thread does not work that way, because at no point along the way is money being created in an abnormal fashion. Players earn gil the same way they always have. Players who buy tokens with real life money then sell those tokens for in-game gil - but this does not generate new gil, it simply passes around the gil that already exists. Hyperinflation does not occur.

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GW2 proves otherwise, the price of ingame items even went up, and keep going up.

This works great in WoW. Square will either want to set a fixed price or develop something to keep the price reasonable like WoW does. They'll also want to limit the number that can be purchased within a given period.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

GW2 proves otherwise, the price of ingame items even went up, and keep going up.

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That's not necesserilly due to the 'token' system.

There's many other factors to consider.
The amount of faucets vs the amount of sinks among those...


Adding straight money to gil would be adding a faucet without a coresponding sink.
Thus inflation.

Adding a token to trade with other players however just moves the gil around, and in the cases of market tax actually removes some from the system, making it a sink.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

GW2 proves otherwise, the price of ingame items even went up, and keep going up.

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These games always have inflation since the money generated by killing monsters, turning quests and selling loot to NPCs always outstrips money being removed from the system by things like transportation and repair fees. Unless you move to a zero-sum NPC economy prices go up quickly, period. In fact it's reasonable to expect that 3 years from now in order to have the same buying power of 100-gil today in 3 years you might need to have as much as 125 gil (inflation tends to be rather high in MMOs). However with a money printing system like this, the rate of inflation would be staggering. We're not talking about a given super-popular item going from 1mil-1.5mil over the course of year.

We're talking about common item like a Rank 5 Materia going from 100k->4 mil over the course of a month.

Tokens really wouldn't do this. You might see more price volatility since savers wouldn't be sitting on tons of gil. But nothing like 100k->4 mil in a month.

Even Runescape does this, so you have my vote.

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Originally Posted by RobbieH

I don't think GMs could ban so many accounts that fast, it might be they developed an automatic system.

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Given the nature of the beast, it's all just database queries at that point, so long as their criteria are defensible, I think they could do it.

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Originally Posted by HPDelron

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If you people think Tokens are going to stop RMT and/or bots you're insane.

Also i know it's an example, but no way V materia will go from 100k to 4m (unless someone thinks that by buying every cheap materia can resell for 10 times more at this point), we're going for the next expansion, people who raid since Creator came out are maxed or almost there (mainly thanks to tokens), the price of the V materias won't go back to millions, VI materia will probably come with SB, V will be the IV of HW in SB, did IV cost millions anytime during HW? No.

The token system is bad because:

- People who have accumulated Gil over time and can't make much gil and buy a Token -> out of Gil, where do they turn? Are they going to buy a Token to sell in game? What was the point of buying it in game then to begin with? So they'll either have to deal with being out of gil or will turn to RMT.

- Rich people can play the game for free.

I also find funny people worried about inflation when there's people in the game who buy every single mat in the market at 100% and sell for 1000%+, especially when a new relic requires crafted stuff, or simply new Crafting recipes.

Let's create a scenario here:

Let's say Token conversion is 20€ for 10M, and i buy the token so i can make some in game gil.

Item X costs 10k per stack, new recipes come out, or new relic that requires those items, snipers already bought almost every stack unless very expensive after they read patch notes.

Item X stacks now costs 2m each, now please explain me how would i benefit from wanting to buy a Token so i could make Gil in-game? I'm curious.

I bet the Token price will also skyrocket to match the market prices. :)

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

*RMT is bad by its very nature*

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You keep mentioning that RMT is against the ToS, but obviously under this system at least one form of RMT would NOT be against the ToS (the type sponsored by SE directly). But what folks in this thread might not understand is WHY RMT is against the ToS in the first place. You aren't going to convince people that they shouldn't do something because it's against the rules, if they think those rules are stupid. I think you'd be able to sell your point better if you were to explain WHY RMT is bad.

Here's a rundown of why RMT is against the ToS in the first place (as I understand it, anyway), and how "legitimate" RMT addresses those issues:

- RMT puts money into the hands of folks who don't work in-game for it. It trivializes the work people do to earn gil in game when you can flash a credit card and get the same results.
This is true, both for legitimate and illegitimate RMT. Of course, a lot of methods for earning gil in this game are not what you'd call challenging - in many cases, earning gil is a simple matter of having more time to invest in the game. The so-called "no lifer" might be able to earn more money than others, but can they really be considered admirable for it? If earning gil was an award for defeating challenging content, rather than something you could do simply by grinding FATEs all day long, this argument might have a little more merit to it. Some of the advocates of RMT I've seen over the years bring up the point that their real life obligations mean they simply can't compete with the rate at which folks with more free time can earn in-game currency, and they use RMT in order to keep up with the Joneses. (On the other hand, this just creates TWO varieties of Haves. Have-nots still exist in folks who both do not have enough time AND can't afford to pay money.)

- People who are foolish with real-life money (and therefore are willing to buy gil) will be foolish with in-game money, as well.
In a free market, the prices of goods are determined by how much folks are willing to pay for those goods - particularly in the case of luxury items. In this game very nearly ALL items are luxury items. Anyone willing to actually pay real money for this stuff probably don't have an enormous amount of money-sense, and so will be willing to pay a lot more in-game currency for the item than a more sensible person would. This drives the prices out of the reach of conscientious players who work hard for the gil they accumulate in-game. This, too, is a problem both with legitimate and illegitimate RMT. Hey, if something gets more expensive, they can just flash that credit card again!

- Buying gil causes inflation
This, finally, is a problem with illegitimate RMT that is NOT present in legitimate RMT. In order to produce the currency that they sell to other players, illegitimate RMT farm the game hard (generally using bots) in order to build up gil. They are, essentially, printing money much faster than the game can dispose of it. The addition of new gil into the economy causes prices to rise across the board - and left unchecked, only individuals who buy gil from the RMT are able to afford anything at all. SE's lax stance on RMT in the early years of FFXI is a good example of just how horrible this can be - Christmas of '06 introduces so much new gil into the economy that everything became a hundred times more expensive. The RMT task force was created soon after, and since that day SE has been much more vigilant in dealing with RMT. However, the legitimate RMT folks are discussing would not have this problem. SE would not sell gil to players. PLAYERS would sell gil to players, gil that they have earned themselves.

- Gil farmers compete with legitimate players for resources
Again, this is only a problem under illegitimate RMT - and in this game, is rather muted even there. This game doesn't feature things like mining points that disappear for all players after one player accesses it, or free-roaming notorious monsters with valuable drops. While RMT do compete with regular players economically (they can farm crystals like nobody's business, which drives down the price), it's rare that they'll directly obstruct a player's gameplay. In a legitimate RMT system, both direct and indirect competition are eliminated.

If you take it as a given that folks, for whatever reason, are going to seek out RMT, then it becomes understandable why many in this thread think that the token system is a good idea. Two of the above points hold true regardless of whether RMT is sponsored directly by SE or not, and the other two are solved or improved because illegitimate RMT are written out of the equation. It seems to be a no-brainer that if you're going to have RMT at all, it's better for it to be sponsored and regulated by SE, rather than in the hands of people who are barely better than criminals.

However, there's another factor to consider:

- Legitimate RMT legitimizes RMT
Right now, there are a lot of players who might like to engage in RMT but refrain from doing so because they are afraid of the consequences. They could be banned by SE. They could have their credit card info or accounts stolen by the RMT they deal with. This means that the population of individuals who buy gil (and therefore spend it foolishly in-game, pumping up prices and so on) is much smaller than it COULD be. Under the token system, however, it pretty much tells folks that hey, it's okay to buy gil with real money. Go right ahead! No matter how you look at it, the ability to buy gil is harmful, both to the buyer and to the folks who are affected by that buyer's foolish buying habits in game. The token system might help get rid of the bots and shout-spammers, but it will also introduce a host of new gilbuying players. The problem is similar to the problem of legalizing drugs in real life - those drugs are harmful to the folks that use them, and sometimes also harmful to folks AROUND the folks that use them, which makes legalizing them a bad idea, but as long as they're illegal there will be a thriving criminal element working to deliver those drugs anyway.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

**snip**Legitimate RMT legitimizes RMT**snip**

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^^^^^^^^^^
The only thing in your post I agree with.

This game time token idea is a terrible one, I dislike the concept and disagree with it being implements, I do not see it as a solution to any problem in the game, and believe that it causes more problems that it ever attempts to solve.

I've already said before why I think RMT is wrong, and why I dislike this concept.

I am kinda against the idea myself, I mean if its limited to how many you can buy I suppose but then it would seem an odd cause, yet if its free flowing, nothing is stopping someone with gil cap to purchase a year or more for free just using in game cash. Just the idea together gives me mixed feelings.

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

I am kinda against the idea myself, I mean if its limited to how many you can buy I suppose but then it would seem an odd cause, yet if its free flowing, nothing is stopping someone with gil cap to purchase a year or more for free just using in game cash. Just the idea together gives me mixed feelings.

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I've got a buddy that does this is WoW. He's actually not paid a month sub since it came out and is always free 6-months into the future. However Blizzard is still getting their money, and he's a productive and active member of his in-game community. The people who bought those tokens are certainly happen with the gold they're getting. Exactly who is losing out in this equation?

Who or what specifically is worse off because of that situation than they would be otherwise?

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

I am kinda against the idea myself, I mean if its limited to how many you can buy I suppose but then it would seem an odd cause, yet if its free flowing, nothing is stopping someone with gil cap to purchase a year or more for free just using in game cash. Just the idea together gives me mixed feelings.

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SE is still getting their money. What exactly is "free" about this?

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Originally Posted by MomomiMomi

SE is still getting their money. What exactly is "free" about this?

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Can you read? He said what in his post:

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Originally Posted by AlphaFox

someone with gil cap to purchase a year or more for free just using in game cash.

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Rich people don't need to pay a sub anymore.