With Eve gone, only sub based MMOs left are FFXIV and WoW

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Originally Posted by JMadFour

what I mean by locked out is this:

I buy ARR for 60 bucks.

I can't play ARR unless I pay an additional 15 bucks every month. despite the fact that I purchased the game, for full price.

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And? Your $60 includes 30 days of server time, plenty of time to complete the MSQ, and beat the game you paid for.

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Originally Posted by JMadFour

Bottom line, imo - if I buy your game, the act of me paying you money to buy your game, should give me access to the game, with no other strings attached.

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That's exactly what you got, that 30 days let's you do just that, if you want them to continue to provide you with the service of their servers, time to subscribe. the game and the service are separate products.

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Originally Posted by JMadFour

If you want me to pay you MORE money, then you should to give me something worth purchasing.

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Servers, patches, additional content without additional charges. Is that not enough? You didn't pay for 3.1-3.5 with your purchase of 3.0.

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Originally Posted by JMadFour

It should be "Thanks for spending 60 bucks on our game! If you pay us an additional 15 bucks a month, you'll get these additional benefits."

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which is exactly what it is. The box tells you that you need a subscription to the FFXIV service, and that you get 30 days free with your initial purchase of the game. Paying that subscription let's you create multiple characters on multiple worlds and access all patch content not on the disc you're holding up as a trophy.

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Originally Posted by JMadFour

not "if you don't pay us 15 bucks a month, then we'll take away your access to the game and the 60 dollars you spent for it is now wasted."

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They take away access to the servers, it's a multi-player online game, what did you expect them to do? It's not like they wipe your character, inventory or retainers, with the single exception of the personal housing which wipes after 45 days, everything you have is preserved until you re-sub. Storage costs money my friend. As does server and network infrastructure, maintenance, software bug fixing, additional content development and of course expansions.

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Originally Posted by JMadFour

I kinda don't understand how that doesn't make sense. and I will always beat that drum. I only like subscriptions if it is a CHOICE, and not a RANSOM.

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Then you should probably not play this if you consider it ransom. The game is a product, the service is a product. You pay for the game you get to play it, you want to play for longer and have access to the latest fixes and content, you pay your sub. It's not a solo, offline game, you know this when you buy it. The box tells you you'll need a subscription.

Making games isn't cheap, maintaining servers and networks isn't a cheap exercise, and continually patching the game for bugs and new content is certainly not inexpensive - especially when it's done simultaneously with working on the next expansion. If you don't understand these things, then perhaps you're just not cut out for this.

The Elder Scrolls Online you do not need a sub for but I like subbing to it when I feel like playing because I like supporting what that game is trying to do. It also has an intriguing monetization system where if you sub you never have to spend extra cash on the game shop. Anything you buy there is purchased with crowns (including things like character services) and you can get a monthly allotment of crowns with the sub. *IF* FFXIV had to go free to play (which it won't) it would be nice if it did something similar.

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Originally Posted by Astyrah

same. really hope that subscription stays despite the trend shift to buy to play or free to play (w/ cash shop) being the norm for mmos nowadays. i would hate to see the servers get flooded with the toxic f2p crowd and whiners

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Well, Yoshi has actually found a way to do a sub game that in a way mimics other models. With the patch cycle there is a group of players that subs for the new patch, and then after 30-60 days drops out until the next patch. But since they will come back for the new patch, they are not lost to the game, and as long as they are back in time for their housing timer, no one loses anything. Including the game not losing subscribers in the long run, even if the number of continuous subscriptions falls a little, the actual number of players can remain constant. I mean Yoshi basically said that's fine and really he thinks that is a valid way for FFXIV customers to behave. But the nice thing is that there is no possibility of the pitfalls of other business models because the game is at it's heart still a subscription mode with zero pay to win.

Honestly I see almost no difference between B2P and F2P. Both have an inherent flaw. The last game I played online before FFXIV was White Knight Chronicles on PS3. It actually had a very effective multi-player online play mode. But it was a B2P model, you could play online for free after buying the game. But they had a zillion little extras that you could spend a small fortune on without realizing. XP tickets, drop rate enhancement tickets, and so on, plus costumes and some gear. Ultimately the game was killed after less than 2 years of activity because there was no money in it, and the monthly transactions did not pay the costs sufficiently for anyone involved to see it as worth while. This is the fate of many, if not most B2P and F2P games. They all go down the route of micro-transactions, pay shops, milking the whales and eventually fading to nothing. I definitely do not want to see FFXIV go down that route.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

The Elder Scrolls Online you do not need a sub for but I like subbing to it when I feel like playing because I like supporting what that game is trying to do. It also has an intriguing monetization system where if you sub you never have to spend extra cash on the game shop. Anything you buy there is purchased with crowns (including things like character services) and you can get a monthly allotment of crowns with the sub. *IF* FFXIV had to go free to play (which it won't) it would be nice if it did something similar.

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The trouble is, that once you go F2P or B2P, there is no going back. When you drop the subscription, you cannot re-instate it. So long term, your game can easily start fading. When player numbers start to go downhill, it can be a snowball effect and a painful crash at the bottom of the hill.

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Originally Posted by JMadFour

Well, what can I say. I love MMOs and this is the arguably the best one out there right now. so I pay the ransom.

I'm not asking for sympathy. there is nothing to be sympathetic about. SE is gonna do what SE wants to do. and at the end of the day, it is just 15 bucks and it's not like i can't afford it.

However, this doesn't mean I'm just gonna shut up and not express my preferences whenever the subject of MMO payment models comes up in discussion. and mine are B2P with Optional Subscription. Also, I'm not in here creating threads about it demanding that they change or don't change the payment model either. just responding to comments.

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Do you want a F2P game with loads of things that we actually have in the Mogstore? Because that's how you are going to get them.

I can understand your liking for a B2P or F2P model of gaming "buy our game and play it when you want without paying anything more!" it's a very tempting message. You said it yourself, for you this is the arguably the best one out. It's not perfect, mind you, but if it is what it is for you it's because of the Sub model it has right now. From a personal experience: My MMO days started from FFXI, there i had to move to other f2p because at the time i didnt had 2 things: Money and spare time for the game. So i played what i could and i moved to one from another. There were good experiences, some were bad. At the end of the day the majority of f2p or b2p games with no sub ended being the same molk cash cow... until i came to FFXIV in 2.0.

From that personal experience i hope they dont change theyr mind and keep it with a sub fee. It keeps the game fueled for future expansions with the money we give to them, and the Mongstore only has things like mounts, glamour and a couple of things you can live without purchasing it. Also it keeps at bay a very toxic playerbase who you can find in the other games.

A MMORPG with a monthly sub it's away cheaper than the alternative, trust me.

Again, you have your opinion and i respect it, just give it a thougt.

I think people get the wrong idea about B2P/F2P. Usually when a MMO does this it's because it's trying to adapt to the modern MMO economy. A lot of people simply do not want to pay a sub fee if NOT doing so is an option. F2P titles can also make a lot of money, trust me. A lot.

The problem is the genre of MMORPGs specifically does not fit this payment model too well. ESO is about the only game I've seen it do it in a non-obnoxious way and it manages by having an optional sub (ESO Plus) that grants you automatic access to everything in the cash shop for no more than the cost of your sub. Free users still have make initial payments for extra content and expansions (which still costs less than a sub would over time but I still prefer using a sub here).

The overwhelming majority of the time you feel like you are only getting partial access to the game and little things will flash and ping and try to get you to pay money. The worst monetization strategies let you buy power.

FFXIV could possibly find ways of having an unobtrusive monetization strategy but odds are it WOULD front load the cash shop... This is all a bit of a silly conversation anyway, though, to be honest. FFXIV may go completely buy to play someday but I doubt it'll be any time soon.

I prefer sub just because I like know how much a game will cost, FFXIV has no nasty surprises waiting to push me to the cash shop, I pay my sub and that's it.

I may occasionally use the Mogstore but I can do this as and when I want to. It doesn't contain things that I need to continue in the game/access a certain part of the game and it's not time exclusive, so I might have an eye on a Mogstore cosmetic but wait until, say, Christmas to get it.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

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Yeah, ESO is nowdays surprisingly good if we compare to when it came out. Also i agree with you on the Sub/Shop model it has right now. But it's also one of very few in a sea of them. Old Republic without a sub it's very restrictive with what you can achieve, and you can end up paying a lot more for all the features than paying a sub directly for the time you decide to play. Blade and Soul started pretty well, but the comunity very toxic, and it's a model like "pay to advance". If someone doesnt want to have a grindfest it will pay loadshit of cash in the shop and turn it into game money. Guild Wars 2 went straight down into the mud...

My point is: A f2p/b2p game with no sub it's a very risk move if you dont do it well. You have to look for another way to gain the money to keep it alive and as someone mentioned before that can ruin your wallet, and you wont go back to the other payment model you had before.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Servers, patches, additional content without additional charges. Is that not enough? You didn't pay for 3.1-3.5 with your purchase of 3.0.

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Yes you do? Buying an expansion is buying everything in it, just that unlike WoW where you get nearly all content from the start, the devs stagger content so you don't run out of things to do.

If content updates weren't included in the price of expansion a player joining in 3.5 would have to pay an additional $45 per content update.

3.0, nor 2.0 by themselves have enough content to be considered a full $60 game.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Yes you do? Buying an expansion is buying everything in it, just that unlike WoW where you get nearly all content from the start, the devs stagger content so you don't run out of things to do.

If content updates weren't included in the price of expansion a player joining in 3.5 would have to pay an additional $15 per content update.

3.0, nor 2.0 by themselves have enough content to be considered a full $60 game.

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No, both 2.0 and 3.0 contained a complete story, with the patches extending it and bridging the gap to the next expansion. Patches are included as part of the subscription. It's exactly like that in Business software. You buy the license up front and pay a substantial maintenance or service subscription. You get any new patches and updates to the application as part of that maintenance subscription, not the original purchase.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

No, both 2.0 and 3.0 contained a complete story, with the patches extending it and bridging the gap to the next expansion. Patches are included as part of the subscription. It's exactly like that in Business software. You buy the license up front and pay a substantial maintenance or service subscription. You get any new patches and updates to the application as part of that maintenance subscription, not the original purchase.

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MMORPGs aren't a visual novel, there's more than story in a MMORPG, and you didn't address this

> If content updates weren't included in the price of expansion a player joining in 3.5 would have to pay an additional $45 per content update.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

Yes you do? Buying an expansion is buying everything in it, just that unlike WoW where you get nearly all content from the start, the devs stagger content so you don't run out of things to do.

If content updates weren't included in the price of expansion a player joining in 3.5 would have to pay an additional $45 per content update.

3.0, nor 2.0 by themselves have enough content to be considered a full $60 game.

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I would say that 3.0 and 2.0 have enough content to stand as a game on their own. It may be a matter of perspective but it took me ~30 hours to clear heavensward at the rate I normally clear an SRPG, similar with ARR.

Breaking it down to pure costs of the game, gonna admit an embarassing 200 days of gameplay total...roughly 4800 hours of gameplay?

I have paid for 990 days worth of gametime, so roughly 33 sets of one month (30 day) $15 payments. Leaving out two months because of the free months from HW and ARR, that's 31 payments of $15.

So ~$465 in payments over two ish years of playing. Add ~$90 ($30 cuz I got ARR on sale and $60 for HW) and that comes up to $555 on sub payments alone.

Sound like a lot?

Divide that by total hours played:

$550/4800 comes out to roughly...

$0.12/hour for entertainment. Which in my opinion is incredibly worth the experience I've received from the game. Not everyone will have the same hours or value of time that I have, and of course I've left out mogstation payments as those are on me entirely. But $0.12 an hour is really not that bad a price to eat.

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Originally Posted by JMadFour

also, every time I see someone suggest that "a Subscription = a better community", I /facepalm.

there is toxicity everywhere in MMOs, and 15 dollars a month does not and will not ever prevent it.

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I was reading that one line about F2P adding toxicity and I LUL'd. FFXIV has a very toxic community, if you don't agree with the FFXIV crowd about how great the game is even when it's boring you better get ready to burn in Hell XD.

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkylark

[snip] Again, After what you said, I'm really keen on unfreezing my sub to check out the current content :)

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I'd wait until they add in the new trial mode tbh, sign up with Pandemic Horde (if you want to get stuck into PvP) or Karmafleet (if you want some PvP but not on your doorstep every other day) and give it a go. I bet both organizations are already planning something with the influx of players the game will see.

As for Citadels and other new structures, the plan IIRC (been unsubbed a while now, just follow the news a bit still) is to reduce NS dependency on HS by making it easier to manufacture out in the depths, can always sample it for yourself before deciding to resub. If you want to manufacture I reckon null could soon be the place to do it, less competition = more profits.

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

And did you at all bother to read the links I provided? I'm assuming not. Because if you did you would have read that CCP (the company that creates EVE Online) is planning for it to go F2P in November. Next month.
One of the links is actually EVE Online's community site.
Unless I'm spouting old news that has since changed.. I have no issue with admitting I'm wrong, but I'm not doing so with people that aren't going to acknowledge the info I've provided.

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You're definition of F2P is weird, a version of pokemon that ended at the 1st gym would be a full free game using it. Pretty much everyone else would call it a demo, or a trial, or a sample.
'EVE goes F2P' generates more clicks than 'EVE removes time limit from trial'. That is why gaming news sites are reporting it as F2P.

The closest thing I can think of would probably be Guild Wars 2, I think you're restricted to level 60 instead of 80 and can't access the new areas but other than that it's pretty much the full game. That was widely reported as 'going F2P' but most people still refer to it as a B2P title because while the amount you get for free is certainly generous you're still missing massive chunks of the game.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

MMORPGs aren't a visual novel, there's more than story in a MMORPG, and you didn't address this

> If content updates weren't included in the price of expansion a player joining in 3.5 would have to pay an additional $45 per content update.

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No, the content added in patches is considered part of the service offering. Yes it means that if you join at 3.5 having bought HW, you have access to everything from 3.0 through 3.5. that's a consequence of having a linear story and also needing to maintain the same client version with all players. The price of the HW game covers 3.0, the subscription grants access to the servers which includes all content upgrades. The content in the patches is not priced separately, nor rolled into the original purchase.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

No, the content added in patches is considered part of the service offering. Yes it means that if you join at 3.5 having bought HW, you have access to everything from 3.0 through 3.5. that's a consequence of having a linear story and also needing to maintain the same client version with all players. The price of the HW game covers 3.0, the subscription grants access to the servers which includes all content upgrades. The content in the patches is not priced separately, nor rolled into the original purchase.

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Sorry but your logic doesn't seem right, you're saying that not subbing means you get free content if you play at the end of the expansion, you're also saying that FFXIV gets less content per expansion than any other MMO, I have to disagree with that. For me buying an expansion equals to paying for all content, while sub allows you to access the servers, hence why sub is time based and no content based, while the expansion is content based and not time based.

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Originally Posted by alimdia

For me buying an expansion equals to paying for all content, while sub allows you to access the servers, hence why sub is time based and no content based, while the expansion is content based and not time based.

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Well...I would advise against drawing conclusion based on the pricing model. Consider - character slots and retainers are time based (monthly) costs as well, yet once you have created the characters/stored the items on the retainers, they have to be stored all the time regardless of whether you have access to them or not (as you might want them back at some point), so they take up just as many resources. This is a clear disconnect between the pricing model and the actual resource usage. Therefore, the same might apply to expansions and the patches. Might - or might not. It's not very clear cut either way.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

You're definition of F2P is weird, a version of pokemon that ended at the 1st gym would be a full free game using it. Pretty much everyone else would call it a demo, or a trial, or a sample.
'EVE goes F2P' generates more clicks than 'EVE removes time limit from trial'. That is why gaming news sites are reporting it as F2P.

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Apologies if you responded to this before my editing... over reacted and jumped to conclusions.

However, regardless of the fact that features and content will be gated behind actually becoming a sub. You have the choice to play a game; that you >>HAD<< to have been a sub to play in the past, indefinitely through your choosing and without end. So you are playing a game, that you ultimately DO NOT have; or rather will not have to in the future, to pay a monthly fee for, therefore it is F2P and is not a "demo" or "trial," as those tend to have an end, conclusion or limit to.

You don't get to redefine F2P just because you don't like the option available.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

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The cost of storage is almost negligible in 2016, they went down a great deal compared to the early times of MMOs, most of the resources used by players are used when they are online and active, as it contributes to server load.

But you're right that we can't know for sure how SE is distributing their income, it just for me doesn't make any logical sense to say that there's no relation between the cost of expansion and following patches, if you pay for sub but not for expansion you're not going to access heavensward content, if you pay for expansion but not sub that doesn't halt new content patches, but you can't access your character.

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

One of CCP own Dev's said it was going F2P... ffs stop being lazy and actually go to the first link of the three I posted. I'll even make it easy for you.
From Eve's own community page. https://community.eveonline.com/news...to-eve-online/
Their words. Not Mine. Free. To. Play. Take it or leave, done trying to convince you beyond this post.

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Free to play, their words? Hmmm

Click link
Ctrl+F
"Free to play"
Phrase not found...

Edit: I went and checked Reddit as well, as some staff members post there quite a bit. None of them refer to it as F2P in their comment history. I'm not going to check the official forums as that would take much longer, but I really don't think CCP has referred to the changes as 'going F2P' or anything similar.

Choose 2

[MMORPG]
[Free 2 Play]
[Good]

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Originally Posted by Blood-Aki

Because people begged for a cash shop and SE is not just going to say "na, we don't want easy money, we'll pass" thus the cash shop is born. and is slowly getting worse and worse. because people are actually PAYING the absurd prices in it, thus they keep going up, pretty soon it will have outfits for $ 35-50 and people will buy them.

In other words, people want to throw money at SE and they have their bags open, over half the stuff in there could have easily been actual in game rewards, for example: the odin mount could have been a drop from the ACTUAL odin fight. but that would make to much sense, Slap a price tag on it and watch the whales swim in.

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They dig their own graves. :/ Kudos to them for messing it up for everyone else.

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Originally Posted by kaptainpancake69

Choose 2

[MMORPG]
[Free 2 Play]
[Good]

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8Rg_UBllyA

FFXIV is not the giant you see it as.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8Rg_UBllyA

FFXIV is not the giant you see it as.

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AdventureQuest 3D is on that list. As much as I love Artix Entertainment their specialty is Online Browser SRPGs, so I have doubts as to its validity; also it's "Upcoming", XIV has been around too long to be considered "Upcoming".

EDIT: I'm not saying XIV is a giant or best or anything like that. Just saying the list you brought up...is sort of irrelevant to the conversation lol

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

AdventureQuest 3D is on that list. As much as I love Artix Entertainment their specialty is Online Browser SRPGs, so I have doubts as to its validity; also it's "Upcoming", XIV has been around too long to be considered "Upcoming".

EDIT: I'm not saying XIV is a giant or best or anything like that. Just saying the list you brought up...is sort of irrelevant to the conversation lol

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Keep watching, the guy also said at the start that not many MMOs are being released because the studios are working on mobile games(SE is working on too many mobile games too fyi ><). The ones at the top of the list are by far 100x greater than the Adventure Quest 3D, the guy also said it might not be everyones' cup of tea. How much did you watch of the video anyway? O_o

And if you think it's irrelevant then you will never know innovation in the MMO genre. Those games on that list were all extremely innovative compared to SE and FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

And if you think it's irrelevant then you will never know innovation in the MMO genre. Those games on that list were all extremely innovative compared to SE and FFXIV.

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I'll freely admit (and apologize) that originally I latched onto the familiar title of AQ3D because I'm quite familiar with Artix Entertainment's works. I say it's...somewhat irrelevant to try and find innovation in XIV, because I don't think it will ever escape the shadow of XIV 1.0's failure.

Though you're right, it would be nice to see XIV take more innovative moves with their game and some of the MMOs on that list do look cool, I can see why they're playing it safe.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

I was reading that one line about F2P adding toxicity and I LUL'd. FFXIV has a very toxic community, if you don't agree with the FFXIV crowd about how great the game is even when it's boring you better get ready to burn in Hell XD.

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this thread, or the dancer speculation thread are perfect examples of this
"STOP THINKING THINGS THAT I DON'T AGREE WITH" seems to be the way a good portion of this community operates

EVE is not going full F2P. It's getting a very very limited free tier. All it really is can be thought of as a non-time gated trial for a paid game. You know how XIV gets a free trial for 14 days and you have tons of restrictions? Well it's that with no time limit. The EVE version is just as heavily capped in what you can do.

(XIV trial restrictions) http://support.na.square-enix.com/fa...5382&kid=70929
(EVE Alpha Clone restrictions) https://community.eveonline.com/news...to-eve-online/


EVE, Alpha Clone (F2P account) restrictions.
Alpha State, on the other hand, will be much different. The most important thing to know about Alpha clones is that they may only use a specific set of skills and skill levels. To begin with, we are planning that the Alpha skill set will be focused on using tech one Frigates, Destroyers and Cruisers. Alpha clones will only be able to use ship and weapon skills native to their faction. If you have skills trained on a character in Alpha State, which are not part of the Alpha skill set, those skills will be locked and unusable until Omega state is reactivated. Characters will start the game with the same 400,000 skill points as they do now and will be able to train freely within the Alpha list. A fully trained Alpha will have roughly 5 million skill points. You can find the full Alpha list in the Q&A below the blog.

If you compared the F2P bolded skill point restrictions to the normal paid version (Omega Clone) you can see how limited it is one part of it is. Right now you can get up to well over 500 million skill points. EVE, for the most part is a game about time. The time it takes for you to train up new skills to pilot better ships. No matter how much time you play past the 5 million mark you will never progress in your skills or what you can fly.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8Rg_UBllyA

FFXIV is not the giant you see it as.

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"Anime-like MMOs" ._. no.

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Originally Posted by Silvarion

http://i.imgur.com/t0XN9c5.jpg

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League Of Legends, Crossfire, Dungeon Fighter Online, Worlds Of Tanks and DOTA2 are not MMORPG...
So, the three best grossing MMORPG are...pay to play...

Litterally waiting for stormblood to fix my opinion.
Actually SE is making a lot of money with the sub but ain't using it to develop innovations or content more interesting into the game.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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Originally Posted by Silvarion

http://i.imgur.com/t0XN9c5.jpg

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League Of Legends, Crossfire, Dungeon Fighter Online, Worlds Of Tanks and DOTA2 are not MMORPG...
So, the three best grossing MMORPG are...pay to play...

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Thats the little thing why this graphics should get read closer. Its just talking about MMO not MMORPG. The list would look very different, if non RPG games would be not shown in this list.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

FFXIV seems to take after SWTOR; especially after the Stormblood trailer, very reminiscent of the new SWOTR expansion trailer.

Korean F2P isn't so bad, the only P2W games I can think of would be Facebook games. If they would look at F2P they should look more closely at the Korean models or at least do what SWTOR does. Wow is going to be killed soon by Blizzard so Pay to play will almost be a thing of the past.

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This game would probably be most viable for the SWTOR FTP style of model...Which is kinda worrysome for some maybe...even though expected at the same time. SWTOR and FFXIV share the same similarites in that the games are really there for the fans of the series. So those fans would have no issues paying the optional monthly sub for the games and go about their merry little way. SWTOR as a game is great even when most would agree its FTP plan is abyssmal. Want to do more then three flashpoints or star ship missions a week? Pay a sub or buy a lock out remover from the cash shop once per week. Want to use legendary equipment? Buy a sub or pay for a character or account wide restriction remover. As a FTP player in SWTOR even I didn't really mind the restrictions as much. Then again I'm not a super Star Wars fan that felt the need to either sub or buy through restrictions. It was just a merry Star Wars adventure that I did enjoy, and even with the restrictions I didn't really feel restricted. So I could see that FTP model work well here if a player is just looking for a merry Final Fantasy adventure while not taking the game as serious as a series fan would.

The Korean FTP style I love the most though I won't lie but the way this game works it wouldn't really fit. Not without a major amounts of the games systems being reworked from the ground up. Mostly dealing with equipment progression. For those that never played a Korean MMO before. Equipment isn't exactly replaced by a new piece usually. Equipment progresses and evolves. Like.....

Okay, in Tera Online...in endgame a player would first grind a dungeon until they got the equipment piece they wanted, now the evolving comes in. First a player would get a scroll..I forget the name of it but what it does is basically "black out" the equipment piece to make it unidentifyable stat and effects wise. The player would then use an identification scroll to basically reroll the equipment piece. A player would do this until RNG smiles upon them and the equipment identifies as "Mastercraft" which means it can be boosted to +12 instead of +9. The player would then hope RNG smiles on them as they use a lot of Alkestz and tiers gear shards (gotten through de-synthing weapons and armor) and eventually through RNG failures it becomes +12.

Blade and Soul uses a similar path in evolving where basically players continue to use the same weapon and accessories they got between level 1-10 and through the use of items that come from the game evolve it as they go about their journey.

It goes without saying the bread and butter from these games comes from lockbox and other RNG based goodie events. They work so well because even if a player opens one and doesn't get the big shiny they hoped for. The player is always promised to get at least something they'll need for equipment evolving later on.

"*opens a box* aw dang, I didn't get the special outfit...Oh hey look 10x Item! Let me bank those for later! " That FTP system works for those games, it really wouldn't work here since it wouldn't be a big seller because how can you be promised something you'll need across the board to all players.

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Originally Posted by Chiramu

I was reading that one line about F2P adding toxicity and I LUL'd. FFXIV has a very toxic community, if you don't agree with the FFXIV crowd about how great the game is even when it's boring you better get ready to burn in Hell XD.

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I got a laugh out of it too lol. My go to FTP games are Blade and Soul, Wildstar and Guildwars 2...I could count the number of toxic players I've crossed path with on maybe two hands...I fear I would need an abacus to keep track of all the toxic people I've crossed paths with in FFXIV :/

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

Unless things have changed since the announcement, EVE is planning to go F2P in November. Or in the least have a F2P model.

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

And did you at all bother to read the links I provided? I'm assuming not. Because if you did.. you would have read that CCP (the company that creates EVE Online) is planning for it to go F2P in November. Next month.

One of the links.. is actually EVE Online's community site.

Unless I'm spouting old news that has since changed.. I have no issue with admitting I'm wrong, but I'm not doing so with people that aren't going to acknowledge the info I've provided.

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you misunderstood dude, let me try and explain.

in this feature, there will be 2 types of clones (the character) instead of one and those are: the alpha (free/trial) and the omega (w/ sub).

the alpha clone will be very limited, you will be racially locked and can fly cruisers and below only ships; limited skills you can use (even if you trained them already) and the rate of experience accumulation will be slowed down to half the normal rate. i think the exp cap. will also be at 5M only.

on the other hand, omega clone will be like the normal clone we have now having access to all ships and skills (if trained) when subbed.

so if a veteran having 100M exp points (or what we call SP = skill points) didn't pay the monthly sub, his clone will be converted to an alpha clone (form an omega clone) and lock most of his skills and abilities. so i don't see how veterans will stop paying sub.

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Originally Posted by Xiao_

dangerously off-topic, but the cool kids are in wormholes

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nah FW/lowsec is where the action is.

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Originally Posted by sydh

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Currently the game operates on a Sub model after your 14 day trial, in which you HAVE to sub to keep playing the game. But you're saying that you will be able to keep playing; indefinitely, without paying a dime, even though heavily restricted, but you will be able to play the game.

Sounds like a F2P model to me. Which is all I've been saying.

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Originally Posted by NatSilverguard

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I fully understood that, no explanation was needed. What people seem to think is that just because you're not getting to enjoy all the features that Sub model players enjoy, that you're some how not playing the damn game.

Is it limited by a time frame as a trial typically is? No. Are you ever required to pay to play the game? No, unless you want all the bells and whistles that Sub models enjoy. Logically speaking... that sounds like a F2P model.

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

Apologies if you responded to this before my editing... over reacted and jumped to conclusions.
[snip]
You don't get to redefine F2P just because you don't like the option available.

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

[snip]
Is it limited by a time frame as a trial typically is? No. Are you ever required to pay to play the game? No, unless you want all the bells and whistles that Sub models enjoy. Logically speaking... that sounds like a F2P model.

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I appreciate the apology, not often you see that on the internet. Thanks.

I'm not trying to redefine F2P though. Look, I don't know how much experience you have with Eve, but you seem to framing it as free with a subscription that grants some nice optional extras. It's not though, the limits are almost excessively restrictive to anyone who's spent a bit of time in game, new players won't particularly notice or care but by removing the time limit they can get veterans with lapsed accounts to log back in and chat with old friends. A good chunk of them with probably resub as a result, it's pretty clever to be fair.

Putting 'EVE F2P mode' in FFXIV terms though, it's like being limited to level 30 on your starting class, no other battle classes, no jobs, max level 5 on crafter and gathering classes & no retainers. You could play like that for a bit but honestly, advertising that sort of heavily diminished experience as F2P FFXIV would be pretty misleading at best.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

I appreciate the apology, not often you see that on the internet. Thanks.

I'm not trying to redefine F2P though. Look, I don't know how much experience you have with Eve, but you seem to framing it as free with a subscription that grants some nice optional extras. It's not though, the limits are almost excessively restrictive to anyone who's spent a bit of time in game, new players won't particularly notice or care but by removing the time limit they can get veterans with lapsed accounts to log back in and chat with old friends. A good chunk of them with probably resub as a result, it's pretty clever to be fair.

Putting 'EVE F2P mode' in FFXIV terms though, it's like being limited to level 30 on your starting class, no other battle classes, no jobs, max level 5 on crafter and gathering classes & no retainers. You could play like that for a bit but honestly, advertising that sort of heavily diminished experience as F2P FFXIV would be pretty misleading at best.

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And yet it's the users choice to then:

A) Quit
B) Continue playing for free
C) Subscribe

A Trial is something that has a defined end, as it is a trial. EVE's current trial is that of 14 days, after which you have a choice, Sub or leave. From what they've said so far, this will not have an end. Much like the old "Trial" version of WinRAR. Did everything; at least from what I remember, that the full version did, but the trial never ended. Granted as you said, this version of EVE some features will be locked and even have caps, BUT if it is the players choice to continue playing for free even with all the locks and caps on features, then it is considered a F2P model.. no matter how scant the features.

Though honestly at this point, I think it's safe to say that we agree to disagree on the matter. Because I don't see myself budging on this topic nor you. ^^;

Anyways to get on topic.. seeing as I haven't been since I stepped into this thread...

I'm fine with XIV remaining Sub only with the cash shop. What I disagree on with the cash shop is the price of some of the stuff, in particular the mounts... I'm sorry, but nearly $30 for just a mount is a bit much... for that I better be getting some extra content.

I do like the Cash Shop, but agree that some things on it should be available in game. The Odin Mount, dyes, some of the costumes, etc... what I don't mind is the Cash Shop making available items that are no longer available from past events. Like Halloween Costumes.

That said, I'd like to see the sub model remain, but wouldn't mind a Lifetime Sub option either.

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Originally Posted by Kyuuen

[snip]

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Yeah I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. That's fine, it seems it's mostly semantics at this point anyway :).

I've been calling it a trial because the restrictions in place are similar to a lot of MMO trials, it's the terminology most people are familiar with. More accurately I suppose would be 'demo', to me the proposed mode seems most similar to those old demo discs you used to get back when games came on CDs, you could play those forever without spending money on them but you couldn't really say you got the game for free.