Are we as players afraid of a challenge?

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Originally Posted by Jynx

...What I really want to talk about though is in the players daily life we lack any sort of real challenge....

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Talk about challenge, I think pug with random is the real challenge that a lot of ppl afraid of it. ^^;

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Originally Posted by lvlagmarink

Yokai Watch event is a challenge.. Even wandering minstrel personally congratulates players upon completion..
But somehow, by saying this i feel like a troll in this thread..

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Yokai watch is more like waste of time rather than challenge. you gonna call going to a park and pick up a rock mindlessly 800+ times a "challenge"? AFTER you been doing it for 3 years.

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Originally Posted by Furiea

Yokai watch is more like waste of time rather than challenge. you gonna call going to a park and pick up a rock mindlessly 800+ times a "challenge"? AFTER you been doing it for 3 years.

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Watching an entire Anime series in one session without falling asleep can be considered a challenge so /huh

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

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Destiny could have been great but they released the lead writer and scraped the story into what it is now, because you know, Activision. But what I mentioned about The Taken King, yes it's an invasion, he invades our solar system because well, kinda killed his son. BUT Bungie released that this DLC was built on revenge, so they made the general areas become more violent when the Taken come, it makes the world seem more alive and give us a sense that the things we do carry consequences. In FF14 there is nothing like this, when we were wanted in Uldah, why were there no Brass Blades looking for us? We could just pop in the city and do whatever. We entered a war between human and dragon, why weren't there dragon raiders looking for us? Now in 4.0 we look to be going to Ala Mhigo, which I'm understanding is under control of the Emperor, why wouldn't he send his best units to track us down and kill us? Adding the element of being hunted by a strong pack at random gives off a very high level of danger, you're not meant to kill this pack, but you must deal with it, which leads to matter of stealth.

Stealth is NOT the answer in regards to making things more challenging, I've played enough of Splinter Cell and Metal Gear Solid and believe me when I say, adding patterns to AI that we learn are not a good method in open world content. It simply doesn't work. It didn't work in MGS 5, all you had to do was get a tranquilizer sniper and you beat the game. If you didnt go stealth the game became frantic and fun, but the concepts of stealth and run and gun don't mix in a open world. Splinter Cell used environmental stealth in it's design, that also wouldn't work in a open areas that 14 has, simply because of the design of 14. 14 has a head on battle system, which SE has yet to comment on if they're going to change our battle system at all. If we didn't need the trinity we could get away with this, but we have a out dated battle system, heading a game that is asking for more modern elements.

So challenge must be built within the confines of what we already have, meaning making mobs more violent, increasing the number per area, allowing them to actively hunt us instead of stand still and look around, and actually have a mean streak are the only real things SE can do with making the world a more serious matter. Otherwise, the use of ideas that are not fully developed being implemented will further hurt the feel of the game, and we don't need a open world that is worse overall then any of the side content that flopped like TT, LoV, Diadem, or PotD.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

In FF14 there is nothing like this, when we were wanted in Uldah, why were there no Brass Blades looking for us? We could just pop in the city and do whatever. We entered a war between human and dragon, why weren't there dragon raiders looking for us? Now in 4.0 we look to be going to Ala Mhigo, which I'm understanding is under control of the Emperor, why wouldn't he send his best units to track us down and kill us?

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Hell, when I first went into the Beta, and then again going into ARR live on legacy characters, I went through the first fetch quests thinking... am I ever going to talk to any of these people ever again, apart from my guild master up to level 30 when my class becomes a wasted relic of a concept? Is there going to be a single thing worth knowing about the world map that a quest wouldn't have directed me towards anyways at the only time that area is useful? And I didn't, and there wasn't.

Speaking of open world instancing, or 'phasing', yeah, that would have been a great opportunity to throw in some danger on that escape by having phased interactions with the environment, even if that really did mean that we couldn't get back into Ulduh until finding some way to disguise ourselves. Instead, we stepped out of the cutscene, free to walk freely about the place rife with our (inexistant) pursuers. But instead we got 12 consecutive minutes of cutscenes. Granted, since that period of transition to Ishgard and the events and settings of Heavensward was short anyways—and any longer would more than try the patience of anyone just trying to get to Ishgard—I'm okay with that. But the sheer nothingness throughout the world, or how we have to stand about a destination every time just to trigger instanced events whose spawns just look awkward to anyone else, the complete lack of quests noting whether in a party (and why should they, when there's no reason or scaling for that party), or worse, force you out of them... *shiver*

You have guilds, yet you seem to be the only player in them. You have campaigns, yet they explicitly hinge on you and you alone, the solo (+3/+7/+23) player. I get that we want to feel like the main character, but that can be done while still making mention of the things going on through your various class guilds, GCs, and so on, connecting you with other players, and having some actual effects of your interactions out there... I'd best stop there, for now...

I'm pretty open to whatever concepts could increase interactions available with the open world to make it feel vivid and coherent. I just, seeing what we do have, have no faith in SE's taking a similar barebones concept such as an Invasion (already had two of those in 1.x) and making something interesting out of it. They seem too willing to take in skeletons of design and present them as a meaty dish. /rant

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

Stealth is NOT the answer in regards to making things more challenging, I've played enough of Splinter Cell and Metal Gear Solid and believe me when I say, adding patterns to AI that we learn are not a good method in open world content. It simply doesn't work. It didn't work in MGS 5, all you had to do was get a tranquilizer sniper and you beat the game. If you didn't go stealth the game became frantic and fun, but the concepts of stealth and run and gun don't mix in a open world. Splinter Cell used environmental stealth in it's design, that also wouldn't work in a open areas that 14 has, simply because of the design of 14. 14 has a head on battle system, which SE has yet to comment on if they're going to change our battle system at all. If we didn't need the trinity we could get away with this, but we have an outdated battle system heading a game that is asking for more modern elements.

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I respectfully have to disagree here. While I've played Splinter Cell and other stealth centric games and would have to agree that the bursty frantic deviations away from stealth are often more fun than the stealth itself, I have had tremendous fun, more so than in stealth-centric games, with open world stealth. Ever tried to sneak an entire raid into an enemy player city, cutting through canyons, scouting with less conspicuous players, and potentially baiting enemy resistance away? That's technically open world stealth. As for the PvE side, there are things like diverse mob detection patterns that allow you to bait mobs away, potentially into enemy players, or have you seek cover as the thick clouds that had been blanketing your approach from the moonlight finish passing by and suddenly all those mobs you'd been cutting past can see you. It's got some pretty fun interactions to work with.

But again, I never suggested stealth as a primary solution wasn't a primary solution. In my first post I was just using the example of stealth in order to show how changes in travel speed can create different player paradigms, making adjustments to whatever system of risks and rewards based on travel or pathing seem all the more interesting and seem to better reward progression and discovery.

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Originally Posted by Jetstream_Fox

So challenge must be built within the confines of what we already have, meaning making mobs more violent, increasing the number per area, allowing them to actively hunt us instead of stand still and look around, and actually have a mean streak are the only real things SE can do with making the world a more serious matter. Otherwise, the use of ideas that are not fully developed being implemented will further hurt the feel of the game, and we don't need a open world that is worse overall then any of the side content that flopped like TT, LoV, Diadem, or PotD.

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I'd say if you build just about anything strictly within the confines of what we have, which is mechanically next to nothing, the effort is basically fruitless anyways. Of course, every example you've given thereafter are things that we don't currently have, unless you mean to simply increase mob detection range across the board. They have spawn areas, in which they where they spawn randomly or at specific nodes, each have a domain range around the spawn, and are scripted to wonder a portion of that range's radius, while detecting up to x yalms (reduced by superior player level), and chasing to the edge of the domain. That's all we've got. That said, more than half of all mobs do already attack on sight. The issue is simply the difference in player level, but without the player being synced to make a fight out of one-shot-able mobs chasing you, removing that detection immunity would only serve to annoy people crossing on land mounts via Heavy. And I doubt that simply expanding or lifting their domain ranges and giving them acquisition scripts with the goal of finding and killing players within the zone is going to seem more challenge than annoyance. Without anything specifically implemented to give the player something to work with or avoid, you just end up with, effectively, death by RNG, or extra and nonmanipulable work based on RNG. You either saw the beast well ahead of time and were locked out of using the area, saw it and killed it just to access the area, or got lucky and it didn't decide to continue in your direction as you landed and started doing whatever within 100 yalms of it.

Allot of people think I'm asking for just high hp mobs and that's not really the case...

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Watching an entire Anime series in one session without falling asleep can be considered a challenge so /huh

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You've not been watching the right anime. :P

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Originally Posted by Lokier

You've not been watching the right anime. :P

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If it takes 2 or 3 days, be challenge to stay awake no matter how interesting it is.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Imagine 4.0 wherever we go doesn't matter. We start our new journey in a new town and our first over-arching goal is to get to the next town, this in itself should be a challenge. We should walk outside the gates of the town and quake in our boots at what lay before us. Monsters lurk off the beaten path waiting to devour any foolish enough to stray, but great treasures and glory lay beyond things we need to get into the next area.

What do we do?

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We open up our favorite search engine in our favorite web browser and carefully follow the instructions given to us by people who have played this before, never thinking about what we are doing, only being assured that if we do this thing we will survive to get to the next town.

If it becomes a hassle to enough people, the devs will nerf the heck out of the area or the game will become yet another F2P niche MMO with a somewhat interesting take on Open World game play.

If you really want that level of excitement (without the graphics) find a really good story-teller [aka Dungeon Master] and play a game that utilizes that best of all game resources -- your imagination.

As someone who bought the first revision of D&D at San Diego Comic Con back before either became popular, nothing beats the human imagination with the aid of a few rules and some dice.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

If it takes 2 or 3 days, be challenge to stay awake no matter how interesting it is.

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^
I was referring to this ;)

Challenges can be all kinds of things - it can be about patience, it can be about perseverance, it can be about courage, it can be about intelligence, it can be about strength, it can be about finesse, it can be about speed, it can be about social interactions...or combinations of those things! Even as little as staying nice in the presence of a brat for prolonged periods of time can be a challenge if you don't have a natural propensity to such behaviour.

Long grinds are most definitely challenging in the patience department, while no video game is considerably challenging in the strength department. Puzzles can be challenging in the intellectual departments and stuff like Savage heavily tests your memorization skills. There are different kinds of challenges was the point I was making.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Are we as players afraid of a challenge?

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Yes.

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Are you personally afraid of a challenge?

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Everyday is a constant struggle to survive in the world of those who, by principle, enter df alone. I challenge myself though the means of bad teammates.
It's fun. It's hard. Even the easiest content becomes really hard. I enjoy this varying difficulty level. I do not want additional difficulty added on top of that, because that would make it impossible to clear anything with just a pick-up group.

Challenge / complexity can exist outside DF trials / primal fights. More difficult / heavily scripted fights wouldn't do much for players looking for more fun, given that it's a fight that you either win or fail.

What I think the game needs is content that gives players freedom to confront difficulty outside of scripted content. For example, a revised and revamped diadem concept. Or later expansions to Palace of Dead. Give people the option and incentives to do "difficult" content that won't alienate PUG players. More difficult dungeons wouldn't be awful, but I'd expect to have to do the dungeon less / have multiple routes so that players had a choice.

Dungeon Example: Speed / guaranteed clear or going deeper / chance of additional rewards, with more risk.

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Originally Posted by Ignnis

I love a challenge, I'm just afraid of the stupid, carry me pls people in DF.

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

Talk about challenge, I think pug with random is the real challenge that a lot of ppl afraid of it. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Atoli

Everyday is a constant struggle to survive in the world of those who, by principle, enter df alone. I challenge myself though the means of bad teammates.
It's fun. It's hard. Even the easiest content becomes really hard. I enjoy this varying difficulty level. I do not want additional difficulty added on top of that, because that would make it impossible to clear anything with just a pick-up group.

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With all these, I gotta ask: would the game and its difficulty (or how it acquires difficulty) be more enjoyable if people actually had to know what they're doing with their class/job and role?
Imagine the means for that however you like.

Of course the game would be more enjoyable if everyone was responsible for their role.

Only way to enforce that is to have repurcussions for poor gameplay but as long as the focus of the game is on the duty finder and random grouping.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Of course the game would be more enjoyable if everyone was responsible for their role.

Only way to enforce that is to have repurcussions for poor gameplay but as long as the focus of the game is on the duty finder and random grouping.

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Those repercussions can only be taken so far before you start losing players. If the entire open world is one big slaughtering ground unless you have a party, people are going to lose interest fast. I certainly would, and not because of some perceived anti-challenge notion. Being killed by toad mobs because I couldn't happen to find a tank willing to run to x city with me just isn't fun. And as that is the primary reason I play any game, I can't say I would continue playing this one if it ever reached a point where it's more tedious or frustrating than fun.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Those repercussions can only be taken so far before you start losing players. If the entire open world is one big slaughtering ground unless you have a party, people are going to lose interest fast.

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Nowhere do I suggest that it be impossible to travel once you have got through the zone once. Think of it as having a aetherite at the end and have the roads themselves be fairly safe, but have objectives beyond the path that require some effort or teamwork.

Then again I probably have a different definition of fun than you do as frustration is part of how I enjoy my games. If they aren't challenging me then it's not really fun.

I'm afraid of challenges where I have to rely on other players.

not really , i only get annoyed from people who flip out easily ^^

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

not really , i only get annoyed from people who flip out easily ^^

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I agree with you, but I've felt myself becoming more one of these people as time has gone on. irl I think I'm quite a patient person, but my ingame patience can evaporate pretty quickly. There's only so many times you can queue DF and get paired with people who know nothing about their class, miss/ignore basic mechanics, ice mages, tanks wearing str gear, people wearing glamour gear, people wearing crafting gear, people wearing no gear in some/most slots... I'm sure we could go on


I, personally, don't think I'd really like open world pvp, especially if it was everywhere. Imagine I'd get quite annoyed if I went afk to have dinner or something, come back to find I've been offed by a lvl 10 carpenter or whatever lol

I do think that game could do with being a bit more challenging. Again, only my personal opinion, but the only content I consider challenging is midas. For me, that is part of the problem... things like "expert" roulette, are so faceroll easy, I think this could be a factor in why people rage quit so easily. I mean, if something was difficult, you might not necessarily expect to clear, so if you failed to clear it, it wouldn't be too much of a surprise. But when something is faceroll, like the Bismarck dps check, and people still fail it in 240 gear... it's pretty soul destroying.

True endgame is having the tolerance to withstand other people

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Originally Posted by randysquirrel

I, personally, don't think I'd really like open world pvp, especially if it was everywhere. Imagine I'd get quite annoyed if I went afk to have dinner or something, come back to find I've been offed by a lvl 10 carpenter or whatever lol

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In this game you can go afk to have dinner or something, come back to find you've been pwned by spawned A rank on top of your head

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Originally Posted by vp_cmc

In this game you can go afk to have dinner or something, come back to find you've been pwned by spawned A rank on top of your head

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Why I afk in sanctuaries.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizyy

Why I afk in sanctuaries.

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Or just afk in a safe spot where enemies don't spawn or see you.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Nowhere do I suggest that it be impossible to travel once you have got through the zone once. Think of it as having a aetherite at the end and have the roads themselves be fairly safe, but have objectives beyond the path that require some effort or teamwork.

Then again I probably have a different definition of fun than you do as frustration is part of how I enjoy my games. If they aren't challenging me then it's not really fun.

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Problem with that is the challenge is rendered obsolete almost instantly because if you up the difficulty to that extent, people will always teleport. I would rather new mechanics be introduced that have a lasting appeal. Ideally, I'd love to see hunts reworked into world bosses with actual mechanics and a means to prevent people zerging them down.

And oh, I don't mind frustration in my difficulty. I've put silly little challenges on my games in the past. I just don't like difficulty that feels more tedious than fun. Case in point, in Mass Effect 2, I did a no-cover Vanguard run and cursed like a sailor the whole way through. Was a blast though, especially one fight you're not supposed to even win. Now flip to FFX's No Sphere Grid and I just never found it fun. Might be turned based combat rearing its limitations over action, but when I think of hard content, I want the fights itself to be interesting and engaging not just supped up mobs.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

And oh, I don't mind frustration in my difficulty. I've put silly little challenges on my games in the past. I just don't like difficulty that feels more tedious than fun. Case in point, in Mass Effect 2, I did a no-cover Vanguard run and cursed like a sailor the whole way through. Was a blast though, especially one fight you're not supposed to even win. Now flip to FFX's No Sphere Grid and I just never found it fun. Might be turned based combat rearing its limitations over action, but when I think of hard content, I want the fights itself to be interesting and engaging not just supped up mobs.

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A lot of the best examples I can remember of urgency in a turn-based comes down to FF bosses that had something of a soft enrage, or just really wanting the thing to die already, while having certain things to be maintained between gambits of burst or reduced personal defense (no Shell/Veil for Death because you were pushing a burn), or any particular burn phases where you had the option of either bunkering down or just pushing even harder, desperately so, in order to swap phases or suppress damage. Weirdly enough, most of the examples coming to mind come from the XIII series, for all its bad wrap. Bits also from VIII, IX, and X though. The rest, it's just been too long since I've played, I guess.

And even those can easily end up feeling tedious rather than urgent, especially when no soft enrage or appropriate scaling is present to make the fight feel right at more than just one level of stat or trait quantity/power.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I would rather new mechanics be introduced that have a lasting appeal. Ideally, I'd love to see hunts reworked into world bosses with actual mechanics and a means to prevent people zerging them down.

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I feel like there is so damn much potential in open world boss fights, if they really went whole hog. There could even be aspects of trying to scare the boss out of one place, having him fly off to another area where its mechanics differ, ramping up enough total enmity to cause it to change its tactics.... Open world bosses have at least as much potential for interesting mechanics as any of our instanced raid boss; where our raid bosses can be pushed phase by phase to adjustment of their environments, the open world boss has randomization or multiple options in both initial position and later displaced or phased/replaced environments, can excuse a larger play area than would fit most raids (except perhaps the original T5?), and necessitate scaling for whatever combination of player, ilvl, and role count. Just thinking about 4.0 (been imagining a myth-encroached Sharlayan and surrounding lands), I can't help but include them in my daydreams.

Ideally the monsters wouldn't just be beef tanks but take a que from 1.0 monsters where they had actual mechanics and tactics to fight with.

Just a few examples of how 1.0 curb stomped it's 2.0 predicessor with monster mechanics.

• Wolves: Would attempt to flank players when fought in groups to do more damage at the side and flank.
• Crabs: Would raise their hands in a guard stance and counter when attacked. Some sub-species (Red Crabs) would also raise their claws when you got near them but would not engage until you got within a certain range letting you know they meant business before you got too close.
• Efts: When near could only sense you if you moved, if you moves close to them they would pop their heads up and try to pinpoint you. Aggro Could be avoided by stopping in your tracks until they lowered their stance.
• Funguar: Would bloat up or shrink in a counterstance that if attacked would unleash a AOE poison or damage and could be avoided by avoiding attacks during this phase.

That's just to name a few, monsters felt more alive in the world than they do nowdays and that's a damn shame they took those mechanics out just because of one annoying behavior type that goats and Galago had in common (Where they would follow players on sight for a small distance but not attack making use of AOE attacks a hindrance in some areas) Why they just didn't remove the one AI is beyond me but baby with the bathwater and all that.

ahhhhh

the San D'Oria > Jeuno 1st walk at lv 20~21. Memories.

Given how horribly bad most of this community is at playing this game:
You damn right I am.

Apart from that: challenging open world content that isn't instanced will NEVER work, because you can always just bring more warm bodies.
If you force people into soloing challenging stuff you will quickly run into class balance issues.

Bottom line: Not worth the DEV effort.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

That's just to name a few, monsters felt more alive in the world than they do nowdays and that's a damn shame they took those mechanics out just because of one annoying behavior type that goats and Galago had in common (Where they would follow players on sight for a small distance but not attack making use of AOE attacks a hindrance in some areas) Why they just didn't remove the one AI is beyond me but baby with the bathwater and all that.

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And even that could have become a mechanic.

• Have a shoo emote that makes them move away for a minute or so then AoE could be used in that time.
• When you cast an AoE you have to fight them once but then those type get a collective consciousness for X amount of time and don't follow you.
• Or have it be a type of enemy that would assist you fighting and be immune to your skills like a non invited party member.
  
  But hey! At least now enemies are just there for decorations and fates. Baby and the bathwater. Think, See, Feel.

Honestly I feel like monsters in general even in instances feel like lifeless punching bags.

I also think a lot of the trepidation that players have towards challenge in MMOs, especially this game, has to do with playing with other people. There is always that one guy in every group who has done the content 20-30 times already by the time they hit the run with you, and if you haven't watched all the guides and perform all the moves perfectly, they go full man-child on you and throw a tantrum of legendary proportions in party chat.

That can get under the skin of even the more seasoned MMO players, and is not particularly enjoyable.

So, in a game like this where random parties are a crux of the game for many people, a lot of them are not going to be happy with the idea of an extremely challenging duty... not because of the challenge, but because of what it brings out in the more "hardcore" players.

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Originally Posted by Tolmos

I also think a lot of the trepidation that players have towards challenge in MMOs, especially this game, has to do with playing with other people. There is always that one guy in every group who has done the content 20-30 times already by the time they hit the run with you, and if you haven't watched all the guides and perform all the moves perfectly, they go full man-child on you and throw a tantrum of legendary proportions in party chat.

That can get under the skin of even the more seasoned MMO players, and is not particularly enjoyable.

So, in a game like this where random parties are a crux of the game for many people, a lot of them are not going to be happy with the idea of an extremely challenging duty... not because of the challenge, but because of what it brings out in the more "hardcore" players.

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I think that attitude stems from the content being more of a dance with specific steps that must be done a certain way to ensure the party doesn't wipe. Naturally, people will have to practice more ( or less ) depending on skill level, and finding consistent groups at the same level can be difficult, as we've seen over the years. Again, I'd just like to stress that content difficulty should not mean "more phases" in trials, but instead content that can be considered difficult while being able to be handled dynamically.

For instance, going back to "dangerous" zones - there can be ways to avoid mob heavy areas, or there may be better times of day ( or night ) to move through an area. Sure, you can try to charge through solo, or with a full party to back you up, but your chances of success go down - but are never 0%.

Or let's take an example that is already in the game. So you're in Diadem, and someone shouts that they have tracks, then activates them....Boom. All of a sudden you have a Brachiosaurus stomping around the island ( you'd best hope it's a spacious one ). Tanks immediately have to grab aggro and turn away his long-necked cleave of death. Healers have to reposition as best they can ( while being mindful of other mobs that may be in area ) and prepare for Meteor. But you also have options: you have elevation and proximity damage that you can use or exploit. You have numbers, or a lack of numbers, that determines how hard the mob is. Ignoring the whole implementation of rewards and various other Diadem gripes, it's a fair attempt at more interesting mob types.

My thinking is we can keep EX trials and Savage Raids but also have content that encourages people to explore these dangerous areas and band together to accomplish objectives.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Honestly I feel like monsters in general even in instances feel like lifeless punching bags.

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Hence the term: Trash mobs.

Most monsters have a mechanic - typically a cone that's easy to dodge, bats have lifesteal, some others poison procs or a gaze attack (Serpents in Quarn HM come to mind) maybe a class ability for humanoid NPCs etc - it becomes most obvious in palace of the dead, because you fight through just about every trash there is. IIRC, Ninki Nankas don't aggro if you walk rather than run either (At least in Hullbreaker they don't). Final Sting is one of the most well known trash abilities by far I wager. Drakes in southern Thanalan also employ a fire shield buff that hurts attackers much akin to a counterstance. Ironically especially in low level areas, you can also find monsters "linked" - typically Mandragora.

Magitek Colossi have overdrive, cleave, exhaust and a targeted AoE. Seems like a bunch, but are they really challenging for that? Toads have Vasoconstrictor and Labored Leap plus Tongue, but does that make them much of a threat? Succubi have Fire II and Dark Mist, some also have Sweet Steel (Haukke HM and up). I could go on, but...you know. I don't feel mobs actually lack mechanics/abilities, but the fact that we can move freely to easily avoid them, rather than being locked in place with every action skill, makes them seem a lot less threatening - plus the fact that we can clearly see where the attack goes in the first place. There's also stuns and other CC freely available to trivialize them further. And in group dungeons, healers are OP anyhow, so if it doesn't kill instantly, it can often be ignored.

The other criticism I feel is actually valid is that many of the abilities of monsters do, in fact, not feel very organic. They have a generic casting animation and things happen - All of the Succubi preparation/casting animations are one and the same, rather than being unique and fitting for each ability. Similar applies to other monsters - a Jackal using Sanguite Bite looks like he's casting Stone, rather than preparing to jump at your throat (And Foul Bite doesn't seem to have any animation at all). Same goes for Final Sting and many, many other abilities. Even if the substance remains unchanged, it makes monsters feel less lively.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

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You brought up how we can easily dodge moves due to the attacks being telegraphed and I remember how some complaints of 1.0 was how nearly everything was animation locked, thus if you attacked at the wrong time or the enemy just happened to unleash an AOE right after you started your attack, you got hosed. Other than making enemies have shorter charge times, hit harder, or removing telegraphs completely, we aren't going to have anything harder when it comes to trash mobs.

I find nothing particularly wrong with telegraphed moves, because the challenge becomes shifted into being able to use the right abilities at the right time and being able to react, which is better for me than anything obtuse.

I kind of wish more enemies had abilities like the toad/nixes, because being able to disposition other players can really put others in danger, especially if you are playing a class that relies on keeping distance. I think something like that would be safe to pull off on a wider scale as long as the attacks themselves don't go overboard.

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Originally Posted by Windi

I find nothing particularly wrong with telegraphed moves, because the challenge becomes shifted into being able to use the right abilities at the right time and being able to react, which is better for me than anything obtuse.

I kind of wish more enemies had abilities like the toad/nixes, because being able to disposition other players can really put others in danger, especially if you are playing a class that relies on keeping distance. I think something like that would be safe to pull off on a wider scale as long as the attacks themselves don't go overboard.

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Status effects should be used more often too. It'd give me a reason to use stuff like Echo Drops.

Duty Finder can be hell or heaven depending on the group, thats this games mid-core challange right there... that said a more "Threatening & Scary" Open-world would be nice (like no-mount zones for 2.0 area's & no-fly zones for 3.0, throw in some high-ilv enemy spawning tripewires & give fixed enemies a knockback move that they actually move into place to knock you into said tripewire... that might make 2.0 tribe-strongholds scary again aside from the "oh they hit me with heavy, now its gona take me longer to get outa here"... that & maybe make it so regardless of lv difference a Stronghold guard will try to kill u even if they can't, only thing I find interesting from Destiny aside from a item-lock function is a lv5 trash mob can still kill u regardless of how much higher lv u are)

That sounds more annoying than scary. Something straight out of the Palace of the Dead from the sounds of it.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Hence the term: Trash mobs.

Most monsters have a mechanic - typically a cone that's easy to dodge, bats have lifesteal, some others poison procs or a gaze attack (Serpents in Quarn HM come to mind) maybe a class ability for humanoid NPCs etc - it becomes most obvious in palace of the dead, because you fight through just about every trash there is. IIRC, Ninki Nankas don't aggro if you walk rather than run either (At least in Hullbreaker they don't). Final Sting is one of the most well known trash abilities by far I wager. Drakes in southern Thanalan also employ a fire shield buff that hurts attackers much akin to a counterstance. Ironically especially in low level areas, you can also find monsters "linked" - typically Mandragora.

Magitek Colossi have overdrive, cleave, exhaust and a targeted AoE. Seems like a bunch, but are they really challenging for that? Toads have Vasoconstrictor and Labored Leap plus Tongue, but does that make them much of a threat? Succubi have Fire II and Dark Mist, some also have Sweet Steel (Haukke HM and up). I could go on, but...you know. I don't feel mobs actually lack mechanics/abilities, but the fact that we can move freely to easily avoid them, rather than being locked in place with every action skill, makes them seem a lot less threatening - plus the fact that we can clearly see where the attack goes in the first place. There's also stuns and other CC freely available to trivialize them further. And in group dungeons, healers are OP anyhow, so if it doesn't kill instantly, it can often be ignored.

The other criticism I feel is actually valid is that many of the abilities of monsters do, in fact, not feel very organic. They have a generic casting animation and things happen - All of the Succubi preparation/casting animations are one and the same, rather than being unique and fitting for each ability. Similar applies to other monsters - a Jackal using Sanguite Bite looks like he's casting Stone, rather than preparing to jump at your throat (And Foul Bite doesn't seem to have any animation at all). Same goes for Final Sting and many, many other abilities. Even if the substance remains unchanged, it makes monsters feel less lively.

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Just because something is trash mob doesn't mean it should be braindead.

They do have some in fight mechanics. The fact you can dodge them, means you can theoretically not get hurt at all in an encounter or heal through it easy. Dark Souls handles this by limiting healing resources. Which is not possible here since this is a multiplayer game. So the best thing SE could do is make the hits when they actually hit you, sting like hell without one shotting. The stuns and CC are fine as long as the enemy can do the same thing to you. The tables are more even when an enemy can hurt you just as bad. The common mmo thing to make fights last longer is mount HP galore onto enemies. But that just becomes tedious if smart thought can't turn for the good or bad in an instant.

I don't necessarily ask for difficulty, because that is subjective to each player. Every encounter should require thought though or this might as well be a hack n slash game. The AI they stripped from aggro mechanics in the open world removes the thought. And that is why it should come back.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Hence the term: Trash mobs.

Most monsters have a mechanic

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The mere fact that you almost always don't even have to bother dodging said mechanics is what makes them lifeless. Final Sting being the one that is still rather punishing if ignored.

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Originally Posted by Jynx

The mere fact that you almost always don't even have to bother dodging said mechanics is what makes them lifeless. Final Sting being the one that is still rather punishing if ignored.

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Didn't Chigoes in 1.0 almost KO you if you used certain attacks on them? I remember doing leves/behests and we had to be careful when fighting chigoes. I could be totally wrong its been so long but its stuff like that I wish we still had.