Give Tanks Tank Stance at Level 15

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Originally Posted by IndigoHawk

Oh, yes, scholars have a bit of a bad low level experience, too. White mages have their skills early on, but scholars have similar problem to low level tanks not having tank stance; they don't get cleanse early enough.

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Cleanse isn't a big deal lower level, a SCH has Adlo out of the gate and can just simply Adlo which the poison will end up eating the shield. Most don't do that or really understand how shielding works as "more effective HP" early on in their SCH career. Plus now they have Selene cleanse at earlier level. It was never a problem, and still isn't one.

I would switch Shield Oath and Cover order. SO at 35, Cover at 40.

I agree with this thread. I've been a Paladin since the launch of the game. Mastered the art of Tanking long ago. Completed all savage content while it's current. Holding hate? Piece of cake!


Enter yesterday, where leveling roulette threw me into the {Thousand Maws of Toto-rak}. I began my journey into these halls with a Dragoon and a Machinist as my comrades. With the dungeon memorized, my gear at i240, and my HQ Vitality Potions and Food fully loaded; this party could not have received a more prepared Tank. Let me tell you.. holding hate was an absolute nightmare.


The first 10 seconds of every fight? Welcome to the wonderful world of Machinist tanking. It doesn't matter if you Fight or Flight a Shield Lob, Flash, or Provoke. Not until your Halone combo finishes are you finally able to keep up with their enmity generation and OGCD's. And even then, sometimes they are able to pull it right back before your second Halone combo finishes. Dragoon attacking an unmarked mob? Time to pick which mob you want to tank. Once that first mob dies things start becoming controllable.


While leveling in 2.0 I don't recall a single time where holding hate was difficult as long as your weapon was up-to-date. Now that this content is level syncing and stat capping i230+ players, it's clear the enmity generation algorithm isn't doing Tanks any favors at low levels. These level capped DPS in Toto-Rak were generating 10x more enmity (enmity gauge percentage wise) then i240 DPS in Alexander Savage. I shudder to think about what new tanks are putting up with.

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

I shudder to think about what new tanks are putting up with.

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Spam dungeons on GLD til 34 and then start the real tank quest.

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/My_First_Axe

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

While leveling in 2.0 I don't recall a single time where holding hate was difficult as long as your weapon was up-to-date. Now that this content is level syncing and stat capping i230+ players, it's clear the enmity generation algorithm isn't doing Tanks any favors at low levels. These level capped DPS in Toto-Rak were generating 10x more enmity (enmity gauge percentage wise) then i240 DPS in Alexander Savage. I shudder to think about what new tanks are putting up with.

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hmmm is it really worse than 2.0? 2.0 was pretty awful for gladiator but if this is the case, im not surprised kept saying every other major patch will be 'enmity increased' ah well such is life

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Originally Posted by technole

Cleanse isn't a big deal lower level, a SCH has Adlo out of the gate and can just simply Adlo which the poison will end up eating the shield. Most don't do that or really understand how shielding works as "more effective HP" early on in their SCH career. Plus now they have Selene cleanse at earlier level. It was never a problem, and still isn't one.

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That only works after Haukke for Adloquium, and Selene's recharge means any fight with multiple spaced out statuses have some that just slip past. Also, there's an entire guildhest based around statuses and esuna that SCH kinda get shafted on.

For real fun try the very first (level 10) Guild Hest as a brand new Marauder. Good luck keeping enmity there.
(Hint: A level 10 MRD has no AOE abilities, and no ranged abilities.....)

Pretty much agree. Anybody who says: I've had no issues tanking in low level dungeons: Stop being cool. You're lying your through your teeth or you don't actually play your Tank in any actual dungeons before your stance. They need to either scale down the dps that is done, or they need to give Tanks something to combat the dps that is going out. Marauders used to have ZERO issue before Defiance, and now they're struggling big time even with Maim up-time, OP spam with SS combo. Paladins are screwed until 40, and it is a struggle to even get that Oath.

It's honestly a problem, and anybody saying otherwise is clearly ignoring the fact that a ton of us are having issues. We could be in full 240 and when we get sync'd, we get screwed out of aggro. It's a problem and this needs to be fixed. But really tired of seeing: 'I've had no problems at low levels!' Okay, keep lying or being ignorant, I don't care which.

I haven't been in a really low synced dungeon in a while, and while I won't say that I have any significant troubles, I certainly don't have a problem with some sort of tweak to make it easier.

Heck, I think one of the adjustments they need to make is to disable soul crystals below thirty, because I'd love to have access to extra cross-class skills. Invigorate would be incredibly handy to have to counteract the TP drain of Overpower spam. Sure, you have flash, but have you actually seen how long it takes for Warrior to regenerate MP?

Most painful area is actually the 25-30 area. Butcher's Block comes in far later than other three step enmity combos, and you will feel the difference against DPS that know what they're doing. And the ones that don't, since they'll all pick their own targets and expect me to somehow manage two out of control DPS' targets.

I don't agree with giving tanks tank stance at lvl 15 it doesn't teach you to be a good tank, mind you low lvl tanking is annoying, (for some i.e new players) it teaches you how to tank. If we got tanking stance at 15 all you would have to do is spam flash/unleash/overpower then afk for the rest of the dungeon with no sense of mob management, placement, understanding threat mechanics.

Take for example WoW at lvl 15 you get everything you need for your spec (tanking stance, some heals, extra int/agi/str etc) but it doesn't teach you anything or how to tank/heal as a new player. As opposed to FF14 where yes DPS can pull threat off you at low lvls especially as a Pld since you don't get shield oath till 40 which is pretty awful not going to lie. But when I was lvling my pld and was my first 50 in 2.0 I really learned how to be a better tank and knew what I could handle, what kind of DPS I could handle (looking at you BLMs with your pre-nerf Flares!). The only thing i'd change is Plds get shield oath at 30.

Tanking at lower lvls is fine it teaches you the basics and you'll learn exactly what you need to do and how to manage your threat through lvling and being with different DPS/healers. I love this game to pieces I don't want it turning into another mindless MMO where I just sit there and hit one button over and over again while I watch netflix bored of lvling because i'm hitting just 1 button.

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Originally Posted by Awful

If we got tanking stance at 15 all you would have to do is spam flash/unleash/overpower then afk for the rest of the dungeon with no sense of mob management, placement, understanding threat mechanics.

Take for example WoW at lvl 15 you get everything you need for your spec but it doesn't teach you anything or how to tank/heal as a new player..

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.. Do you know what you're talking about? Because you obviously don't. You are aware we can do the afk and nonsense at 60 yet? Why should that be any different than now? Once they get their stance, that is all that is required anyway. If a tank loses aggro past their tank stance, they're a terrible and I mean TERRIBLE tank. It's practically impossible to lose aggro above 45 for any tank, and nobody is even discussing that. We're discussing low level where GEAR is eschewing enmity issues and OVERPOWERING it against new tanks who get them in roulettes.

TIL the OFs have a character limit.

I'm also guessing you haven't been playing a low level tank, or else you wouldn't be spewing such nonsense either.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

For real fun try the very first (level 10) Guild Hest as a brand new Marauder. Good luck keeping enmity there.
(Hint: A level 10 MRD has no AOE abilities, and no ranged abilities.....)

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Don't need them.

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Originally Posted by Soulbrandt

.. Do you know what you're talking about? Because you obviously don't.

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Yes actually I do, I que for low lvl roulette as my war whom I haven't gotten to 60 yet and i've gotten Toto-Rak, I've gotten Halitali I have gotten them all and it's more engaging then just pressing flash over and over spamming it until your blue in the face. A good tank rotates their threat combo inbetween flashes but if we had nothing but shield oath/grit/defiance at 15 it'd just be spam so do you know what you're talking about? I mean you'd have to if you Tab target and y'know use threat combos? it's not impossible at all to tank low lvl tanking, god forbid we have to do some work as a tank.

As for gear I mean it's a double edged sword you can't fix all the kinks in lvling roulette it's just not feasible, and there's not that much difference between say a tank wearing all pink accessories lvling/armor vs someone wearing HQ white gear is almost the same you're only losing some stats/def/mdef. However you can't help someone who is ilvl sync'd and you will have them guaranteed what my point was having tank stance makes people lazier, lazier people don't learn to tank, that in turn leaves people unprepared for max lvl tanking. It also makes healers job even less important the game isn't mechanically sound for you to have a tank stance at 15 it wouldn't make sense and would make everything a borefest and you'd sprint through the whole dungeon.

I also used to main a pld in 2.0 was doing Savage content...so yeah I do know maybe something about tanking. You make it seem impossible to tank low lvl content with ilvl syncd people when in reality it isn't.

You can also edit your post past the 1000 limit just to give you a heads up.

Wouldn't this be kinda op sry but no range attk is much better than tank stance stop being lazy folks and do your job even if you lost aggro during low lvls if you aint losing aggro on 40+ for pld or 30+ on drk/war then your good

You are definitely going to lose aggro in lower levels if you don't use your AOE aggro skills repeatedly where DPS and Healer are just splitting dps across all 3 mobs, even worse if DPS are using huge CDs on them. It doesn't have to do with the ability to tank in Savage and all that.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Heck, I think one of the adjustments they need to make is to disable soul crystals below thirty, because I'd love to have access to extra cross-class skills. Invigorate would be incredibly handy to have to counteract the TP drain of Overpower spam. Sure, you have flash, but have you actually seen how long it takes for Warrior to regenerate MP?

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Do you *want* to only have one healer for anything before Haukke at all times?

I think things need to be adjusted for gladiator. I think Marauder is fine, you just have to use overpower a bit more and switch targets.

But Gladiator? It is the WORST tank in this game no questions asked. If a new gladiator goes to a dungeon such as copper bell mines and get all synced players,(Which is almost always) he can only DREAM of holding hate against all of the mobs. It is outright impossible for him to do his job correctly. It doesn't matter if his gear is all up to date, it doesn't matter if he uses his abilities to their greatest extent (And lets be honest, do you really expect a sprout tank to be able to know his skills inside and out at these levels?). The few levels those dps have on the gladiator along with their synced gear will make it so that he doesn't have a chance at holding down hate. ESPECIALLY if it's pro raider ninja that just got done with his savage runs for the week. Man, even a new marauder is going to have issues now that I think about it. And you know what? Those dps are gonna turn around and say "Wow, that tank was really bad" And then it discourages new tank players to keep going. It is a big problem and SE needs to do something about it.

And for whatever reason. SE made the stupid descision of giving PLD shield Oath at level FORTY instead of Thirty like it is for WAR just in time for Hawke when things start to get hairy if you can't hold hate reliably. I think that needs to get adjusted too.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Do you *want* to only have one healer for anything before Haukke at all times?

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...Kudos. I forgot about that.

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Originally Posted by ToasterMan

And for whatever reason. SE made the stupid descision of giving PLD shield Oath at level FORTY instead of Thirty like it is for WAR just in time for Hawke when things start to get hairy if you can't hold hate reliably. I think that needs to get adjusted too.

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Before Dark Knight, it was kind of necessary for Warrior to get Defiance early, because everything the job learned required it. Paladin could get away with it because nothing required a specific stance.

But now they have Dark Knight, which gets its tank stance at 30, and so the unbalance is clear. Give Paladin a new 40 skill, and have them learn Shield Oath at the same time they learn Sword Oath, and call it a day.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Give Paladin a new 40 skill, and have them learn Shield Oath at the same time they learn Sword Oath, and call it a day.

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Or you know, just switch it around. 30 for ShO, 40 for SwO. For whatever reason, SE gave PLD an early DPS stance which is kinda meh TBH.

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Originally Posted by Ekimmak

Before Dark Knight, it was kind of necessary for Warrior to get Defiance early, because everything the job learned required it. Paladin could get away with it because nothing required a specific stance.

But now they have Dark Knight, which gets its tank stance at 30, and so the unbalance is clear. Give Paladin a new 40 skill, and have them learn Shield Oath at the same time they learn Sword Oath, and call it a day.

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I'm not sure how Paladin got away with not having their tank stance for dungeons like Hawke, Brayflox Cutters Cry, and Qarn since that's when the game starts to step it up a bit, at least for a new player. This isn't about the skills it's about the classes ability to keep hate on mobs. Even back in 2.0 New Paladins struggled to keep mobs on them. Meanwhile once WAR got defiance it was smooth sailing from then. Just use a few overpowers and you were set. There aren't any skills you can use that require wrath stacks in Hawke and Brayflox anyway. Of course I can't really speak for Paladins at level 30 because I never went that far with it since I was fed up with GLD when I got provoke. But hey, maybe I'm wrong and they do it just fine. If so then just disregard this.

EDIT: Now that I think about it. It's probably because of the shield

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Originally Posted by Soulbrandt

Anybody who says: I've had no issues tanking in low level dungeons: Stop being cool. You're lying your through your teeth or you don't actually play your Tank in any actual dungeons before your stance.

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I created a new character in 3.2 and have since leveled all 3 tanks to level 60. I leveled primarily through dungeons, especially for the early levels (I'm partial to NT fates if grinding between 42-50 ish). I was level appropriate for these dungeons and I'll say I didnt experience issues. That's not to say I tanked everything perfectly for every run while never, ever losing threat. But on the few occasions where I did lose threat, it was an isolated occurrence that was a direct result of an error on my part. (zoning out)

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It's honestly a problem, and anybody saying otherwise is clearly ignoring the fact that a ton of us are having issues.

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I agree the new player experience for tanks could be improved and to be fair, SE is making progress towards improving it. The Smith is a nice step in the right direction both giving them nice gear and a bit of direction. While I agree the new tank experience should get more attention, I am torn as to whether or not lvl 15 tank stance is the way to go about doing it.

For one, you can introduce new problems. For example, fresh 50 offtanks usually wont leave tank stance now, let alone MTs. What happens if Tank stance starts becoming their crutch at level 15?

If tanks aren't updating their gear at the lower levels now, what is going to happen when they gain more threat + dmg reduction from tank stance? Are the current 'sastasha' complains going to be replaced with 'haukke manor' complains once tank stance cant make up for how outdated their gear has gotten? I'm mean... Ive seen lvl 50 tanks in gear from the upper 30s...

How does tank stance impact other classes? For example, how would the passive 20% dmg reduction of ShO impact the new healer experience?

If you're worried about sync's players, why not tackle this issue by addressing sync'd stats rather than tank stance? Or if its a skill issue, tackle it by education rather than tank stance?

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Originally Posted by Soulbrandt

Pretty much agree. Anybody who says: I've had no issues tanking in low level dungeons: Stop being cool. You're lying your through your teeth or you don't actually play your Tank in any actual dungeons before your stance. They need to either scale down the dps that is done, or they need to give Tanks something to combat the dps that is going out. Marauders used to have ZERO issue before Defiance, and now they're struggling big time even with Maim up-time, OP spam with SS combo. Paladins are screwed until 40, and it is a struggle to even get that Oath.

It's honestly a problem, and anybody saying otherwise is clearly ignoring the fact that a ton of us are having issues. We could be in full 240 and when we get sync'd, we get screwed out of aggro. It's a problem and this needs to be fixed. But really tired of seeing: 'I've had no problems at low levels!' Okay, keep lying or being ignorant, I don't care which.

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I'm leveling a PLD at the Moment, only in dungeons, and i don't have shield oath yet since he is not 40 yet. I don't have problems, it takes a bit more focus then leveling a WAR or a DRK but its still not impossible or very difficult to keep hate. The problem for the most people is not the missing tankstance its the lack of experience as tank in general and the lack of interest for their own class and the skills of that class. Not everyone is just acting cool or something because he/she has no problems...

But even if i don't have problems with this class it would be good to give the PLD his shield oath with lvl 30 just to make it a bit easier for new players who maybe need to learn tanking.

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Originally Posted by winsock

How does tank stance impact other classes? For example, how would the passive 20% dmg reduction of ShO impact the new healer experience?

If you're worried about sync's players, why not tackle this issue by addressing sync'd stats rather than tank stance? Or if its a skill issue, tackle it by education rather than tank stance?

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Couldn't of said it better my friend. If shield oath was introduced at 15 then healers would never have to heal which is bad, I mean you do hit cure once or twice and you're good because the game hasn't introduced HoT's or instant heals (unless you're an AST). Shield oath at 15 wouldn't educate people they'd never leave tank stance and carry over their bad traits once they hit higher lvls/max lvl. Sync'd stats play a more pivotal role compared to not having tank stance.

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Originally Posted by winsock

I created a new character in 3.2 and have since leveled all 3 tanks to level 60. I leveled primarily through dungeons, especially for the early levels (I'm partial to NT fates if grinding between 42-50 ish). I was level appropriate for these dungeons and I'll say I didnt experience issues. That's not to say I tanked everything perfectly for every run while never, ever losing threat. But on the few occasions where I did lose threat, it was an isolated occurrence that was a direct result of an error on my part. (zoning out)

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In all honesty, it will vary from player to player. I'm a very experienced MMO healer and was prior to playing FFXIV. When I took up healing in this game, I was a natural (in my eyes). Someone less experienced may have a different experience. I hate to judge things on personal experience but rather think objectively.

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Originally Posted by winsock

If you're worried about sync's players, why not tackle this issue by addressing sync'd stats rather than tank stance? Or if its a skill issue, tackle it by education rather than tank stance?

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It's much easier to poka-yoke a situation than constantly trying to pass on education, especially when it's mostly tribal knowledge and half of the time, incorrect.

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Originally Posted by Awful

Couldn't of said it better my friend. If shield oath was introduced at 15 then healers would never have to heal which is bad, I mean you do hit cure once or twice and you're good because the game hasn't introduced HoT's or instant heals (unless you're an AST). Shield oath at 15 wouldn't educate people they'd never leave tank stance and carry over their bad traits once they hit higher lvls/max lvl. Sync'd stats play a more pivotal role compared to not having tank stance.

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To be honest, regardless of stances, on my Scholar, at the lowest level dungeons, I can AFK while my fairy does all the work.

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

To be honest, regardless of stances, on my Scholar, at the lowest level dungeons, I can AFK while my fairy does all the work.

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Yep it's pretty faceroll which is fine you're not supposed to be a lvl 15 sch because you can't get it it's the only class that gets away with having an advantage over other classes by having a heal that scales with/better than cure spamming. All you need is Cleric Stance and that's it low lvl dungeons are a joke, protect really doesn't matter, and your fairy heals with no issues with Shield Oath at 15 it'll be even more faceroll healers won't have to worry about anything.

What I was trying to say is new players who are healers won't have to worry about healing at all if shield oath/grit/defiance are introduced at 15 just like tanks won't have to worry about threat it'll be super easy but won't teach them anything about their role the game doesn't start getting interesting until Haukke when jobs turn into their classes. That's why all tanks should get their stance at 30 as that's when you start to have more tools at your disposal compared to 15 where you don't have many traits/abilities. Just my thoughts on it.

They could streamline the process, Wouldn't be anything wrong with doing that. But doing what the OP suggested; I don't think it would necessarily open tanking classes up to "The masses". I remember in 2.0 Paladin my first tank, pre flash Enmity buff and w/e else changed... Not going to lie and say it was easy to tank in those days. But It wasn't impossible. It just meant rotating flash a bit more frequently. The problem is that players aren't using the tools that are currently already in their kit as well as they should. Which means more flashes, overpowers and Unleashes than you'll normally be doing later on in the game. The Stances are a type of reward. They free you up to do better and more interesting things.

The Issue isn't "tanks need their tank stance earlier" It's "Tanks don't know how to use their toolkit effectively" And that's because they're new. It's understandable. 90-95% of the time tanks at low levels have the ability to hold threat. They don't because of bad information, habits, not reading tooltips, misunderstandings. Lots could be wrong. But the main problem is faulty pattern recognition. Something Human beings are probably the best at in the entire world.

Doing the same thing over and over again resulting in your healer dying over and over again? Maybe you're doing something wrong, JUST MAYBE. Without asking for help, any dummy can rationally come to the conclusion "Well maybe i'm doing something wrong, I should try something else". Making something faceroll like Sch's fairy main healing isn't right either. Just because that exists doesn't mean it should be the meta for early game. Why even give dps classes buttons to press in early game? Let them Auto-attack to freedom! RIGHT!?! RIGHT!?!?! *Cough* You're playing a video game. You're suppose to push some buttons. Some new Tanks just aren't pushing the right ones is all.

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

The problem is that players aren't using the tools that are currently already in their kit as well as they should. Which means more flashes, overpowers and Unleashes than you'll normally be doing later on in the game. The Stances are a type of reward. They free you up to do better and more interesting things.

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Sums it all up, and it's what all experienced tanks advise newer tanks all the time and ends up solving.

So bottom line is, look at what you might be doing that needs improvement before assuming there's a problem with the game. Applies to all classes and jobs.

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Originally Posted by Awful

*snip*

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I do agree with you. They do not need tank stances at 15, in my opinion. Sword and Shield Oath should have had their levels swapped.

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Originally Posted by Jas710

Sums it all up, and it's what all experienced tanks advise newer tanks all the time and ends up solving.

So bottom line is, look at what you might be doing that needs improvement before assuming there's a problem with the game. Applies to all classes and jobs.

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I take what self-proclaimed "experienced" players say with a grain of salt since I see so much conflicting information amongst the ones that deem themselves "cream of the crop."

It's hard for someone to look at what they're doing that needs improvement because most don't understand what they're doing wrong.

I've played MMOs that introduce required quests that require you to use certain abilities that you acquire which helps someone visually see how they help them. Tooltips are not a great source of information... and this is coming from an Astrologian who learned Royal Road. Each person learns in a different way. Some call it "hand holding" while others call it "mistake proofing."

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Originally Posted by Mattelot

It's hard for someone to look at what they're doing that needs improvement because most don't understand what they're doing wrong.

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If punching a coconut doesn't open the coconut, then it doesn't take a genius to figure out that further punching the coconut will not result in you ingesting it's deliciously creamy white liquid.

-Kaeoni 2016

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Originally Posted by Tint

it matters for the tank. it's no fun to be unable to do your job, especially if you just started with tanking and that's the only experience you ever made as a tank. a new tank should have fun while tanking and the early lvls should be kind of easy. a new tank should be motivated instead of frustrated.

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I guess it depends on the person. The fact i keep losing threat forced me to try harder. And in turn, i think i'm better now for it. *shrug* I wasn't frustrated, i was motivated. But people are different granted.

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Originally Posted by Kaeoni

If punching a coconut doesn't open the coconut, then it doesn't take a genius to figure out that further punching the coconut will not result in you ingesting it's deliciously creamy white liquid.

-Kaeoni 2016

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Been sitting on that one for awhile?

I can't remember if I've replied to this one yet or not (and I can't be bothered to look), but if I have, my views have likely changed from "somewhat disagree" to "neutral."

For funsies, I went into DF roulette on my well-geared DRK, with some really well-geared folks from my FC, to help introduce our new friend to dungeons. We got into Tam Tara and I was kind of surprised at first just how much enmity our BLM and SMN were able to pump out at that level. Even Unleash spam only gave me a slight edge on the big pulls I was doing, and it made me realize that a poorer-geared tank (read: a tank in leveling whites and vendor gear) might not be able to keep up.

I've thought about how challenging tanking was for me, leveling through the content in 2.55 for the first time before they buffed tank enmity. I've thought about how it helped me learn how to generate more enmity, and how to cycle through my targets to secure my hate lead. It taught me the importance of marking the target kill order, and clicking off of Regen and healing statuses before any pull. I've thought about how damage spikes from big pulls taught me how to use my cooldowns effectively. But even with these lessons, which were hard-taught by what was then challenging content for me, and even with competitive gear, I was still having to fight a lot harder than I'm used to in that dungeon run.

I didn't need my stance at 15, but I've been tanking in some form or another for six years, and I know how to think about threat/enmity, and how to keep track of it and keep ahead of it with a limited toolkit. But new tanks might not have that knowledge and experience to draw from. I enjoyed how much work keeping hate was in 15-40 content, but new tanks might need that crutch. So, for my part, I'm neutral. I can see both sides, and both sides have merit, and I will not bemoan any change or lack thereof.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

That only works after Haukke for Adloquium, and Selene's recharge means any fight with multiple spaced out statuses have some that just slip past. Also, there's an entire guildhest based around statuses and esuna that SCH kinda get shafted on.

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Obviously, since after Haukke is when you become, you know a real Scholar. Regardless, even before Scholar-level dungeons and tests, it's still not a big deal for that guildhest. You have Eos Whispering Dawn available from level 1. That is way better to avert poison HP loss and party heal better than a CNJ has to offer at the level. Low-level healing Scholar is undisputedly the king. Leeches is just a nuisance but you have even better skills to not struggle with poison, ever.