30 Minute Lockout for Leaving Roulette's isn't Working as Intended.

If wait time is to long then people just Afk-wait till they get kicked -> No penalty!

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Originally Posted by Eul

My data center is kinda douchebag lately. I keep having healer rage quit at Great Gubal Library. If you don't want enter leveling dungeon then what's the reason you did roulette leveling?

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That's nothing. I've had people leave Midas NM groups as soon as the barrier drops, a duty that isn't in any roulette and you just queue up for yourself. Pretty hilarious how they queue up for a duty only to leave and eat a penalty, as if that wasn't wasting your own time at all.

I can't even get slightly upset over it because its just a kick in the face to themselves.

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Originally Posted by AsahinaMyLove

If wait time is to long then people just Afk-wait till they get kicked -> No penalty!

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Again, no, because the game will make you leave automatically, and that would count as a withdrawal.

It's still amazing to see what great lengths people would go to just to not play the game...
And the fact that they would still find more and more ways to go around the penalties is precisely why they should be far more punishing.

I have suggested this before: Punishing players, by increasing the penalty, will not help. The players will just afk untill they are kicked or troll to be kicked. A real punishment would be to make them finish that run that they ran away from. An example, Player A joins trial roulette, Player A gets Steps, Player A goes Oooh Hell NO! and leaves the trial. Why not make it so the trial roulette keeps giving the trial that he ran away from? So basicly, Player A keeps getting Steps untill he clears it. The trial will not reset for 7 days or maintaince, when he clears it once, the trial roulette goes back to being random.

SE might have a hard time adding this feature, but this will discourage players from leaving, because they disliked a dungeon or trial. The players that need to leave, because of a real life, would not care if the trial that they received is the one that they had to bail on.

PS: Being kicked will not prevent this, so players gain nothing from afking, so they get kicked from a group. They need to clear it or face getting them, untill they cleared it.;)

I wish people would understand that most of the time, people don't run from the duty but from other people. Of course there are some duties that just make you not care how long the penalty is (e.g. thousand maws of total bore) but i believe most of the time people just leave because they are fed-up of being forced to group with strangers. A harsher penalty will only worsen this problem and make the general mood in-game get even worse.

Every MMO offers a certain amount of solo/small group content and that's good because forcing people to group with often horrible players is not the way to keep you playing. I usually try to avoid roulettes unless i can do them with my friends because no, I do not feel like carrying the next bad tank or early-pulling DPS. I don't have to get abuse because a tank can't use his CDs or the dps has no aggro management.

I really hope the Palace of the Dead is only the FIRST STEP to alleviate the "party forcing" this game usually runs with (alas, I will reserve my verdict until after it is released). A good MMO does not force you to group up, it gives you the possibility to do so.

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Originally Posted by Chessala

I wish people would understand that most of the time, people don't run from the duty but from other people.

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I really don't think so. People run from an instance they don't like. Most of the time in DF, people don't even bother to talk to each other, so it's not like they're being openly rude and make you quit a Duty.

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Originally Posted by Chessala

A good MMO does not force you to group up, it gives you the possibility to do so.

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If grouping is only a possibility then soloing will also be a possibility. And if you have the possibility to do everything solo...then people will do everything solo...
So why bother playing a MMO in the first place ?

A good MMO will still force group on you, but will make it easy to join a group. Exactly what the duty finder does.

I would have to agree with this point
last night on my alt queued up for Tam tam deep croft as soon as my screen finished loading the tank immediately withdraws
I would have to admit there was 2 new adventures in the group (one being me) which makes is even more troubling since it gives a bad impression for new players

Let's be realistic. Most people do roulettes for the tomestomes. And, given that truth, depending on what dungeon / trial you get, sometimes the roulette is no longer time or effort efficient for tomestone farming. Aetherial Chemical Research Facility is much longer than the other dungeons. Anything that's not a short trial or guildhest out of mentor roulette is going to take longer.

I'll be completely honest. I'm not going to be some white knight or SJW about this. I leave my roulettes. Sometimes it's frontline roulette and nobody wants to switch to healer. Sometimes it's an ex-roulette and the DPS is way to slow. Sometimes it's mentor roulette and rolls Ramuh EX or some super long dungeon. Even if the penalty was 24 hours I would still leave with no hesitation. I would just find something else to do with my time -- and full credit to this game, there is plenty else to do.

If the penalty ever got so draconian that I could just not deal with it, I would just stop doing roulettes and many other people would, too. We'd just switch to doing whatever else is more efficient for tome farming.

Penalizing people is not going to work. You want people playing your game. As such, you should look to fix this through more proportional rewards. When they designed these roulettes they should've done a better job of balancing the time investment OR gave scaling rewards.

There is 1 roulette that I never leave. That roulette is leveling roulette. Why? Because of the scaling reward. I actually don't like getting Ifrit NM though some will appreciate the quick and easy EXP. I'd much prefer to get a level appropriate dungeon to maybe get some leveling gear, actually benefit from the mob exp, and have it count towards my challenge log dungeon count.

They should apply the same standard to their other roulettes. Reward players and they will do what you want. Punish them and they will find a way around it.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

If the penalty ever got so draconian that I could just not deal with it, I would just stop doing roulettes and many other people would, too. We'd just switch to doing whatever else is more efficient for tome farming.

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Don't worry, there will still be enough people to do the roulette so it wouldn't really affect the queue time that much. But at least, when we'll be thrown into the duty, we'll be sure that people won't bail out right away.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Penalizing people is not going to work. You want people playing your game. As such, you should look to fix this through more proportional rewards. When they designed these roulettes they should've done a better job of balancing the time investment OR gave scaling rewards.

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So, you want every trial from the same roulette to take the exact same time with the exact same pace for the exact same rewards ? And here I thought people complained that we don't have more varied content...
Oh, and by the way...Aurum Vale and Dzemael Darkhold were the most avoided dungeon in 2.x despite giving the best Xp reward, so even your solution wouldn't be enough.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Reward players and they will do what you want. Punish them and they will find a way around it.

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Hmm, sorry but are you serious here ? The roulette bonus IS the reward for people who accept to go back to old dungeons.
SE had to put a penatly because some jerks were leaving duty right from the beginning. They also had to put a vote kick because people where harassing each other. They had to put a penalty for canceling duty too much time in the same day because people were "farming" in-progress duty...
Strop taking it backwards

Play nice and you shouldn't have penalties. Be an a** and you should be punished for this.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I really don't think so. People run from an instance they don't like. Most of the time in DF, people don't even bother to talk to each other, so it's not like they're being openly rude and make you quit a Duty.

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So if people don't talk to each other, why even bother run with other people? Really, they might as well be NPCs and most likely they would play better than most people I have encountered in DF. Of course people run from instances they don't like aswell but if you openy your eyes and ears, you'll notice that a lot of people are sick and tired of constantly being forced to group.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If grouping is only a possibility then soloing will also be a possibility. And if you have the possibility to do everything solo...then people will do everything solo...
So why bother playing a MMO in the first place ?

A good MMO will still force group on you, but will make it easy to join a group. Exactly what the duty finder does.

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The problem with FFXIV is that there is not even the possibility to solo. You underestimate people wanting to play with others and overestimate the need to be forced to play with others. If a game needs to force people to group, it simply means that the devs are not able to create content that wants to make you group with others. And why is that? Because the game caters to bad gameplay. It does not encourage you to improve your abilities by challenging yourself. It does not push you to develop strategies to avoid a catastrophe. And why would you improve if you can find someone that will carry you?


I'll give you an example: DDO. I recently started it again (while still playing FFXIV) and it is amazing how much the game challenges you to not just run head first into mobs but to THINK. And while a lot of normal dungeons are solo-able, there are also places where you need others in order to fulfill certain requirements. Also, of course you will need to group up for raids. I have many reasons to love FFXIV but believe me that the DF system is NOT one of them. The DF system is there because there is no possibility for people to not group up.

A truely hard dungeon requiring me to group up with people to beat it is different from a faceroll place needing me to bring people along because I can't enter the place otherwise. Why can't i by the way? Do I need 4 people to push open the door? do I need a Lala on my shoulder or the guard won't let me in? One has to wonder....

id say what it is better to lower the lockout, and if someone leaves the dungeon got from roulette, they lose the bonus from that roulette for that day, making them tink twince before jumping out of the instance

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Originally Posted by Chessala

Why can't i by the way? Do I need 4 people to push open the door? do I need a Lala on my shoulder or the guard won't let me in? One has to wonder....

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I dunno, I can do it undersized juuust fine and while it doesn't give XP/gil/items from mobs, you still get the chests and the clear reward (newbie bonus/quest trigger/Zodiac drop). And there are several dungeons where even the gil reward is taken from the trash to the chests. I just found most dungeons to not really be beatable while they're relevant that way, you usually need several levels headstart on the dungeon to stand a chance solo.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

I dunno, I can do it undersized juuust fine and while it doesn't give XP/gil/items from mobs, you still get the chests and the clear reward (including newbie bonus). And there are several dungeons where even the gil reward is taken from the trash to the chests. I just found most dungeons to not really be beatable while they're relevant that way, you usually need several levels headstart on the dungeon to stand a chance solo.

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Unfortunately, while unsynch was a nice addition to grind stuff for things like the relic, it isn't really usable as lvling content. This is where dungeon scaling would come in place, giving you the chance to beat the dungeon while still offering a challenge and the possibility of fun.

I am by no means advertising a solo game, mind you. I like to meet new people but I like to do it on my terms and I like the possibility to have, you know, freedom of choice. I know that's a big thing because everything SE does can't possibly be wrong and we need to be forced into groups but hey, everyone is different and as an MMO, FFXIV should have an interest in getting as many people as possible to stray in-game.

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Originally Posted by Chessala

This is where dungeon scaling would come in place, giving you the chance to beat the dungeon while still offering a challenge and the possibility of fun.

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It's a bit more than dungeon scaling you have to do - consider that we have different roles and the mobs are designed around the trinity being in place. You'd have to balance the entire dungeon for every single job individually, otherwise you need to balance for the worst possible job and that would probably be MCH, having low damage, no self-healing, bad CC and only leather armor.

That said, I'm curious how this "dark Palace dungeon" shebumbs is gonna work out. It may be just the content you're looking for, it may be an utter disappointment. We'll see.

Either way, though, I don't think people dropping tends to have much to do with having to group in the first place. If anything, it's because of the random people you got, which that in turn is easily rectified with a premade.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

It's a bit more than dungeon scaling you have to do - consider that we have different roles and the mobs are designed around the trinity being in place. You'd have to balance the entire dungeon for every single job individually, otherwise you need to balance for the worst possible job and that would probably be MCH, having low damage, no self-healing, bad CC and only leather armor.

That said, I'm curious how this "dark Palace dungeon" shebumbs is gonna work out. It may be just the content you're looking for, it may be an utter disappointment. We'll see.

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And this is where strategy would come in place. The problem is that our current dungeons are only meant to be played in one way. I am not saying the old dungeons can be saved as, indeed, they would need to be redesigned. But going forward, dungeon scaling and group setups without the trinity should be kept in mind.

I am hoping the Deep Dungeon concept will bring variety of content that is soloable. However, I will not get my hopes up until it is actually released and turns out to actually be interesting.

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Originally Posted by Chessala

Really, they might as well be NPCs and most likely they would play better than most people I have encountered in DF.

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Originally Posted by Chessala

The problem with FFXIV is that there is not even the possibility to solo.

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These two sentences are really funny. You know why ? Because FFXIV gives the possbility to solo your job to max level thus some players are terrible in Duty because they never learned how to play in a group.

The game should put more focus on group play. Instead they just dumb down everything more and more so that any half competent group can clear anything while watching netflix. Even a basic strat like Steps of Faith was "too hard" just because people has to follow directions like "use the canon" or "fire the harpoon". If they can't apply some basic group strat, they really should quit MMO.

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Originally Posted by Chessala

I'll give you an example: DDO. I recently started it again (while still playing FFXIV) and it is amazing how much the game challenges you to not just run head first into mobs but to THINK.

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I've played DDO too, and frankly, the game's a mess when it comes to MMO philosophy. First, balance is totally non-existent. Second, you have no group structure or dynamic. The only thing that the game provides is tactical play and clever use of your environement, like any solo game can do. And since everything is an instance, there is also no sense of community out of towns.

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Originally Posted by Chessala

Why can't i by the way? Do I need 4 people to push open the door? do I need a Lala on my shoulder or the guard won't let me in? One has to wonder....

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Easy. Go to a dungeon with 3 friends, and ask them to leave. And when you get your ass kicked by the first pack, you'll realize why you won't clear the dungeons by yourself. But, I Wonder. If you only want to tackle content that you can clear solo, why do you even bother going in the roulettes, since you could win the same thing without any tome gear ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

These two sentences are really funny. You know why ? Because FFXIV gives the possbility to solo your job to max level thus some players are terrible in Duty because they never learned how to play in a group.

The game should put more focus on group play. Instead they just dumb down everything more and more so that any half competent group can clear anything while watching netflix. Even a basic strat like Steps of Faith was "too hard" just because people has to follow directions like "use the canon" or "fire the harpoon". If they can't apply some basic group strat, they really should quit MMO.

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FATES do not count. I mean actual, you know, fun content. Not spending a day in 1 map repeating the same 5-6 fates. I like running dungeons And I believe I should not have to use a trick like asking people to leave to be able to solo it.
If we get even more focus on group play we might as well create a character and be thrown into a random group the moment we log in.

People will be people and if they don't want to cooperate, they won't.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I've played DDO too, and frankly, the game's a mess when it comes to MMO philosophy. First, balance is totally non-existent. Second, you have no group structure or dynamic. The only thing that the game provides is tactical play and clever use of your environement, like any solo game can do. And since everything is an instance, there is also no sense of community out of towns.

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I believe you were on the wrong server then. I can't count the times I had nice interactions with other people. I don't find a community in waiting in line to kill a mob or random people deciding they need to help me. Of course the two game have different viewpoints on how to handle the MMO factor, I find grouping when I want to perfectly fine, especially at the time when the game was still P2P.

Also, I saw nothing wrong with the balance. It is on you if you mess up your character or not. By this logic every game that lets you actually set stats as more than just a token like in FFXIV is off balance. It's not particularly great to find that in the core, all classes are the same. Customization does not have to stop with your looks. And DDO is not the only game that does this. Look at RO, look at Tree of Saviour (recently released only).

Anyway, this is my view and all I am doing is giving suggestions. I don't force my view on anyone but when I see way older games handling these things better than a game that is trying to be top-notch, then it makes me sad. We don't even have a high-resolution pack because of console limitations and that when the PS4 was anything but successful in Japan compared to the past (probably why they still cling to PS3 support).

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Originally Posted by Chessala

FATES do not count. I mean actual, you know, fun content.

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Call it what you want, no solo content will teach you anything on group play, so you'll end up being a bad player the first time you'll be thrown in a group duty. And if you never want to in a group duty...why do you even play an MMO ?

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Originally Posted by Chessala

I believe you were on the wrong server then. I can't count the times I had nice interactions with other people.

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A wrong server...because you know a server where the overworld is really opened in DDO ? Every time you're out of time, you're on your own (unless you already teamed with someone). No random passerby, no one to help you if you're in trouble, no one to give a Cure or a Raise...the world is empty.

What I don't understand is that MMO are really lacking in the story, characters and game mechanics when compared to most solo-player games so, why do people play them if they want to play full time solo ? What does the game offer to those people ?

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Originally Posted by Chessala

Also, I saw nothing wrong with the balance. It is on you if you mess up your character or not.

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Sorry, but "leveling a Fighter solo and getting your ass kicked in elite dungeons while a Paladin or a Cleric will faceroll the same content at the same level with the same stuff" is not "messing your character".

Suggesting penalties is not "forcing my view" on others. If SE decided to put a penalty upon leaving a Duty, it's a proof that you shouldn't do it. But, player's reaction is not "Ok, I shouldn't do it, so I won't", but "How will I be able to avoid being punished while still doing something that I shouldn't do ?". If they so obviously give the middle finger to the rules that are put in the game, I won't feel any sympathy when they come crying after that.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I need to be carried - snip-

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Well that is you. Other people go through the trouble of learning their characters and make builds that are able to stand up for themselves. Being self-sufficient is not supported ion FFXIV, sadly. I met plenty of fighters that kicked ass in an elite dungeon 3-5 levels above them. I believe you just don't know how to build a character without having the game giving you a fixed path (the 35 points we get are just tokens anyway)


For you, groups need to be forced because otherwise people do not learn how to play in a group. I played duo a lot on DDO and never had a problem integrating in a group. Thereason people suck in groups in DF is that they don't bother improving their abilities and the game doesn't make them improve (what for, that's why there are carries).

I repeat it once more for you: I like playing in groups and meeting people. But I also like to be on my own in the game I love. Also, I do not need a bunch of people around me constantly to know it is an MMO. The game and the way it is done will do that on it's own. Not like I ever meet alot of people on FFXIV unless I am in towns, fates or unspoiled nodes.....

Anyway, this thread is not about this and we have gone off topic enough. I close here, I made my point. If you feel the need to defend yours, go ahead.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Play nice and you shouldn't have penalties. Be an a** and you should be punished for this.

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you dont have to be an a*** to be punished...they do so also because you are not as fast as they want you to be even though you are a lvl 48 in AV and they are lvl 60 for the bonus, they kick you because you are still Learning your job, they kick you because they want a friend to replace you and etc etc....you know this too.. this last sentence of yours is ..out of place and doesnt reflect totally the reality of the kick thing...

For the rest I totally agree with you

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

you dont have to be an a*** to be punished...

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Hold on, we're talking about penatly for bailing out of a Duty, here :p
No one can force that on you

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So, you want every trial from the same roulette to take the exact same time with the exact same pace for the exact same rewards ? And here I thought people complained that we don't have more varied content...

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You missed the OR part. I said you either balance the time investment (so it would make sense to move Aetherial Chemical Research Facility to the MSQ Roulette where its length is closer to the other options) OR you give them bigger bonuses for doing Aetherial Chemical Research Facility.

You do realize that they've already done this, right? They increased the EXP reward from Steps of Faith from the trial roulette sometime after they nerfed it. For my friends that use trial for leveling purposes, they're actually incredibly happy to get SoF now because you get a colossal amount of EXP. They went from auto leaving it to actually trying to queue into it. Amazing what appropriate rewards will do. That's opposed to...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

SE had to put a penatly because some jerks were leaving duty right from the beginning. They also had to put a vote kick because people where harassing each other. They had to put a penalty for canceling duty too much time in the same day because people were "farming" in-progress duty...
Strop taking it backwards

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...this type of mentality. Where has all that punishment led us? To this day. Where nothing has changed. People still leave duties and more punishment will not stop them. On the flip side you could provide a list ten times as long of all the positive things SE has done to incentivize people to do content and how much more overwhelmingly effective it has been. You're like that parent who keeps beating their child after they're already unconscious thinking child abuse is effective positive psychological reinforcement. There should be a middle ground and the reality is a lot of duties in these roulettes do not have appropriately scaled rewards. That is the reason people leave.

But, I suppose you could continue being blind to the actual problem as well as the actual solution...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Oh, and by the way...Aurum Vale and Dzemael Darkhold were the most avoided dungeon in 2.x despite giving the best Xp reward, so even your solution wouldn't be enough.

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...which you prove here. This argument pertains to time returns. Unlike what you've said, DD was one of the most spammed dungeons in 2.X because it was fast, easy, really good EXP. AV was despised because while it gave good EXP it was not time efficient due to how prone AV runs were to end up as wipe fests. AV's EXP reward is not great when the run takes you 40 minutes. Again, it's a no brainer that when the goal is to level quickly, people will gravitate towards content with good time returns.

Just to prove my point, imagine they made it so that a single AV run out of your leveling roulette leveled you straight to 60 in one run and gave you 450 lore and 2000 eso if you queued into it at level 60. People would do it regardless of how torturous the run was. They'd be typing in their /fc chat how hyped they are that they got AV. You'd flip the scale to the opposite side of the spectrum where people leave leveling roulette to try and queue into AV.

And, one final point. When you boost the rewards for certain dungeons / trials so that they're better scaled within the roulette, everyone benefits. The people that weren't going to leave will have better rewards, too. Everyone wins. When you penalize leavers, you will inevitably catch some genuine people in the cross fire as they have already done. One solution is a catch-all plan. The other is a catch 22 plan.

In addition to the 30 minute lockout, make it so all the equipped gear goes to 0% durability.

It may seem like a dumb addition and a minor inconvenience for most folk. But my idea is that it will condition newer players to not leave dungeons at the risk of going broke. Therefore fostering a better future for Eorzea.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Oh, and by the way...Aurum Vale and Dzemael Darkhold were the most avoided dungeon in 2.x despite giving the best Xp reward, so even your solution wouldn't be enough.

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I feel you weren't around during 2.x if you are actually saying this. Aurum Vale was avoided, sure, because its annoying and a lot of people hate how easy it is too wipe/how slow it is. The EXP rewards are not worth it, at all.

Dzemael Darkhold was never avoided by the large majority of players. Personally I grinded the hell out of it back in the day for equips and quick levels. It was an extremely popular dungeon because it is easy, quick and gives/gave great experience. Hell, there is an "exploit" people would run ALL the time, I never used it but there was almost always some one setting it up in the Party Finder.

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Originally Posted by Chessala

I wish people would understand that most of the time, people don't run from the duty but from other people. Of course there are some duties that just make you not care how long the penalty is (e.g. thousand maws of total bore) but i believe most of the time people just leave because they are fed-up of being forced to group with strangers. A harsher penalty will only worsen this problem and make the general mood in-game get even worse.

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Maybe that's why YOU leave dungeons (which, is both pathetic and kind of sad) but most people don't leave because they don't want to play with strangers. Some people leave because another person in the duty (or multiple people in the duty) are bad and they don't want to deal with it, sure, but that's different than leaving because they can't solo it and don't want to deal with strangers.

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Originally Posted by Chessala

Every MMO offers a certain amount of solo/small group content and that's good because forcing people to group with often horrible players is not the way to keep you playing. I usually try to avoid roulettes unless i can do them with my friends because no, I do not feel like carrying the next bad tank or early-pulling DPS. I don't have to get abuse because a tank can't use his CDs or the dps has no aggro management.

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Not only does your opinion NOT invalidate what is already in the game for people who would like to solo (Levequests, FATES) but most MMOs have content that you MUST do in a party. You also have a very, very high opinion of yourself and if this is how you act in game I'm would not be surprised if a lot of people don't like playing with you and are happy that you stay out of the Roulette/Leave. SE created this game and made an amazing tool for helping everyone clear content without having to go out and find other players to help them clear it (the Duty Finder). Sure you still have to work with other players but for those of us who are no good at finding people and asking for help with clearing it, SE has made it VERY easy to progress in this game. And on top of that they have made it so basically no content is obsolete. It honestly doesn't matter that you don't like it, or have a twisted (and incorrect) view about group play. Sure PUGs can be bad, but that's part of the experience.

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Originally Posted by Chessala

I really hope the Palace of the Dead is only the FIRST STEP to alleviate the "party forcing" this game usually runs with (alas, I will reserve my verdict until after it is released). A good MMO does not force you to group up, it gives you the possibility to do so.

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Palace of the Dead is going to be a completely separate entity from the rest of the game. Item levels aren't going to work and it will have a separate leveling system. And by "Good MMOs" which are you referring too? Because as far as I know basically all MMOs are first and for most MULTIPLAYER based games, not solo, and all have content that can not be done solo. And again FFXIV does not force you to group up, it only does so for the most part because that is the focus and goals of the creators f this game.

If you don't like it, don't play.


Edit: Editted like crazy/made more points and junk.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Hold on, we're talking about penatly for bailing out of a Duty, here :p
No one can force that on you

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somewhat kicking is forcing you to bail out of a duty...*grin*:.somewhat

yeah? lol

Honestly, if they make the 'punishement' for leaving more harsh than it is like some of you suggest.. Don't be surprised if DF becomes a ghost town. Queue times will sky rocket and the only people getting anything done will be those in large FC's who can fill a full party. Then what will you cry for? : "Harsh penalties for premades since I can't get through this dungeon! It's not fair that I have to wait hours for it to fill, and they get to go through so quickly.. they should only get 1/4th the reward!"

Serously, get over yourselves.

The only people that are mad if someone leaves are the dps. No one ever cries if a dps bails.

Frankly, I tank most duty roulettes and people aren't very nice to tanks at all(or healers). Dps pull early (like even if the reason we were waiting was the 2nd dps or healer was afk) and always complain if you pull too much or not enough. I don't bail on duties but I can clearly see why no one wants to tank or heal. When I dps it's easy sailing. If I dps really no one looks at what I'm doing if I act politely. I'd do it more often but apparently not enough people are willing to tank or heal so I do it. It's the way it is when I play MMOs... Playing the least played job is about the only way people can get stuff done. Everyone flocks to the jobs with least hassle.

Basically, you get to dps and have little or no hassle and once in a blue moon a tank or healer bails on you.... OR you play a tank or healer and have a shorter queue time (and people complain at you)... YOUR CHOICE.

It would be pointless, especially since there is a very easy way to get around the penalty.

This is just one of the many cons when using a dungeon finder system.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

You do realize that they've already done this, right? They increased the EXP reward from Steps of Faith from the trial roulette sometime after they nerfed it.

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Yet people still leave it en masse because they don't care about the Xp and only want the lvl 60 tome bonus. Pretty effective change.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Unlike what you've said, DD was one of the most spammed dungeons in 2.X because it was fast, easy, really good EXP.

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Wrong. The first room of Dzemael was the most spammed Xp place, leading to to people starting the dungeon in their roulette, and seeing 3 other people leaving right before the first boss. Great mentality here.

You're still taking it backwards. You try to justify people being jerks because the game is not rewarding enough, but it's the exact purpose of the roulette. The bonus is right that, a bonus. Why do you get a bonus ? Because you accept the random nature of the roulette. And now, you're telling me that you should be rewarded for that random part on top of...being rewarded for the random part. And I'm pretty sure even if the reward were increased, people would still complain about how much time it takes to complete a Duty, or to cap their tomes...seriously, stop with that fast-food mentality.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Just to prove my point, imagine they made it so that a single AV run out of your leveling roulette leveled you straight to 60 in one run and gave you 450 lore and 2000 eso if you queued into it at level 60.

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Then people would complain that they have nothing to do...or complain that Esos should not be capped, or complain about how you still need to buy 40 items with Esos for the Anima or complain how each hyper Anima item costs 1800 esos...or complain about how you should be able to have that reward when going unsynced...or how AV is "tooo haaaard", or how all the parties they end in are bad because their DPS are not perfectly optimal...or just bail out of every other dungeon, leaving those who need to clear them in the dust.

I really thought you've experienced this community enough to understand that the more you give people, the more they'll want...

I always play tank an since they stick research dungeon on the rulette I apologize to the group an abandone is too long, sync is too low reward to little.dont know well the name of the dungeon but is the one were you fight the ancients.i will abandone every time!

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Yet people still leave it en masse because they don't care about the Xp and only want the lvl 60 tome bonus. Pretty effective change.

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And then you just add more tomes to it and you fix that problem. They already have a system for this. It's the poetic / eso bonus system. They only need to tweak it to apply to certain roulette duties.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Wrong. The first room of Dzemael was the most spammed Xp place, leading to to people starting the dungeon in their roulette, and seeing 3 other people leaving right before the first boss. Great mentality here.

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My point was that people gravitate towards low effort, high time efficiency leveling content. Is that point wrong? No. You made the comment that AV has good EXP returns as if that discredits that notion when the premise of that statement was just false.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You're still taking it backwards. You try to justify people being jerks because the game is not rewarding enough, but it's the exact purpose of the roulette. The bonus is right that, a bonus. Why do you get a bonus ? Because you accept the random nature of the roulette. And now, you're telling me that you should be rewarded for that random part on top of...being rewarded for the random part. And I'm pretty sure even if the reward were increased, people would still complain about how much time it takes to complete a Duty, or to cap their tomes...seriously, stop with that fast-food mentality.

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They aren't being jerks. You are just interpreting it as such. To me, they are just people who want to farm tomes quickly and easily. Who can genuinely fault them for that? We all would like that. The statement don't hate the player, hate the game applies here. It's an imbalanced system with loopholes that allow abuse. Don't punish the players because your system is flawed. Fix the system through a positive and productive change.

You're the one taking it backwards by adding more layers of punishment that inevitably have collateral damage.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Then people would complain that they have nothing to do...or complain that Esos should not be capped, or complain about how you still need to buy 40 items with Esos for the Anima or complain how each hyper Anima item costs 1800 esos...or complain about how you should be able to have that reward when going unsynced...or how AV is "tooo haaaard", or how all the parties they end in are bad because their DPS are not perfectly optimal...or just bail out of every other dungeon, leaving those who need to clear them in the dust.

I really thought you've experienced this community enough to understand that the more you give people, the more they'll want...

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Irrelevant rambling. The concept of balance is the basis of the adjustments. Just look at Pharos Sirius HM / Saint Arboretum vs. Neverreap / Fractal. The former is a longer run but balances that through a larger tomestone reward and no ilevel sync. The latter is a faster dungeon but gives less tomestones. There is a balance there that Aetherial Chemical Research Facility falls well outside of. People aren't asking for more. They are apparently perfectly fine with certain rewards in the roulette -- so perfectly fine that they don't mind waiting out the penalty for them.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

My point was that people gravitate towards low effort, high time efficiency leveling content.

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Yes, people gravitates towards the least effort, but the more you ease everything, the more they ask for an easier way. That'exactly why the roulette was created, to ease tome farming. And people still complain...

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Originally Posted by Brian_

They aren't being jerks. You are just interpreting it as such. To me, they are just people who want to farm tomes quickly and easily.

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So what ? We should feel sorry for those who don't want to finish a dungeon and just leave you there because the last part is not Xp efficient ? We should feel sorry for those who leave a 24-man raid when a boss doesn't drop the one thing they want or they just lose the roll ?
And what should we say to those penalized by that ? "Deal with it" ?

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Originally Posted by Brian_

You're the one taking it backwards by adding more layers of punishment that inevitably have collateral damage.

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What collateral damage ? If you take a penalty when purposely withdrawing or staying AFK for so long that the duty automatically kicks you out, how can you end up being a "collateral" damage ?

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Originally Posted by Brian_

They are apparently perfectly fine with certain rewards in the roulette -- so perfectly fine that they don't mind waiting out the penalty for them.

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Of course they don't, since it costs them nothing apart from a little slap on the wrist. It's like in real life, If all you risk by breaking a rule is "Oh, that's not nice", then you'll just break it all the time.

Just see any content that requires a huge amount of gils...you'll see dozens of topics saying that anything that costs gils just promotes gil buying. Some people are perfectly fine with buying gils instead of playing the game for a longterm goal...and then they complain that they have no longterm goal...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Of course they don't, since it costs them nothing apart from a little slap on the wrist.

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Side note: The same applies for rewards as well. Rewards only function as incentive if people care about the rewards. If a reward isn't appealing and conversely, if a punishment isn't actually hurting, it's inconsequential.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Side note: The same applies for rewards as well. Rewards only function as incentive if people care about the rewards. If a reward isn't appealing and conversely, if a punishment isn't actually hurting, it's inconsequential.

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Right, but the reward is not given to you "for free".
Why should a lvl16 dungeon reward you with tokens for ilvl 200 or ilvl 230 items ? The tradeoff is, again, accepting the random nature of the roulette.
If you don't think the reward is enough for the random part, then stop queuing for a roulette.

Here you have people who want the reward but don't want the randomness...and in so, screwing other people...and being offended when you scold them for that.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

Honestly, if they make the 'punishement' for leaving more harsh than it is like some of you suggest.. Don't be surprised if DF becomes a ghost town. Queue times will sky rocket and the only people getting anything done will be those in large FC's who can fill a full party. Then what will you cry for? : "Harsh penalties for premades since I can't get through this dungeon! It's not fair that I have to wait hours for it to fill, and they get to go through so quickly.. they should only get 1/4th the reward!"

Serously, get over yourselves.

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Bear in mind, that no matter how harsh the penalties are, they will almost never be applied unless you're rude, inconsiderate, and intolerant. Basically, behave like a decent human being, and it doesn't matter how sky-high the punishments get; they will rarely, if ever affect you. The punishments could be a whole lot harsher than they are now, and the vast bulk of the player base would never even notice. The folks who WOULD notice, are the ones who abuse the current loopholes in the system to get what they want more easily. Don't be one of those people.

Don't bail on dungeons just because you don't like the dungeon.
If your other party members are derpy, help them through it. Teach them.
Be polite and considerate. If your party members are not, don't give them the satisfaction of rising to their bait.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

Be polite and considerate. If your party members are not, don't give them the satisfaction of rising to their bait.

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I'm pretty sure we'll see a request to earn gils for each commandation received one day, because people are only nice if they're rewarded accordingly for this :p

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I wish people would understand that most of the time, people don't run from the duty but from other people.

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Yeah, right. Explain why the vast majority of the time I see people bail from a duty it's before the DUTY COMMENCED even appears on the screen, then?

Depending on the dungeon or people in the group there will be times where no reward or punishment will stop people from leaving. All it will do is make more people go in pre-made. This seems like anything it is meant to punish tanks and healers since they have fast que times. Because no one really bats a eye to kick a dps or if they leave people won't care.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

snip.

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I seriously wish I could be an naive as you. To see the world and everything in it with completely innocence must be a mutant power. Now let's talk about your points:

Vast bulk would never notice, huh? I highly doubt that. They'd notice (like I said) that DF queue times were much longer, and when they did get into a dungeon see point 1 bellow:

1: I'd sooner have someone bail because they don't like the dungeon at the beginning than slow it down even more by just willfully derping along. People being forced into doing something they don't like will put forth the bare minimum of effort. Making that dungeon go even slower.

2: I've said it before, and I'll say it again: There are countless amounts of resources that can be found not only on these forums alone, but with a simple google search for people to learn for themselves. I am not going to waste my time trying to 'teach' someone is who to lazy to do their own research. (Before you ask, no I'm not a mentor.)

3: I'm one of those people who tends to be silent through a dungeon run. I'm not there to chit chat, as my only reason for being in any given dungeon is to get through quickly and efficiently. If someone is being rude, talking more than healing/dps'ing/tank cooldowns, I will vote kick them. They are impeding the run. If that fails to go through, I will leave on my own. I refuse to spend 40 minutes in a dungeon that can be run in 20, just because someone else is dragging their feet and being a chatty cathy.

Think about things realistically, instead of rainbow happy flowers. People are selfish, and only in it for themselves. Take away their reward for 'helping' someone else or punishing them harshly for not helping, and they will completely avoid the situation in the future, and find other ways to get around it.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

I refuse to spend 40 minutes in a dungeon that can be run in 20, just because someone else is dragging their feet and being a chatty cathy.

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So you refuse to wait 40 minutes to get your roulette reward, but you'll leave the dungeon after 10 minutes, wait 30 minutes because of the lock-out before reentering maybe another dungeon that you'll leave 10 minutes later because people aren't good enough for you, for another 30 minutes lock-out ?
Real efficient, yes.

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Originally Posted by Dorander

Think about things realistically, instead of rainbow happy flowers. People are selfish, and only in it for themselves. Take away their reward for 'helping' someone else or punishing them harshly for not helping, and they will completely avoid the situation in the future, and find other ways to get around it.

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Yeah, I think about it realistically. Either you end in a dungeon that does not please you and leave, so others will have to wait for someone to join in progress, hoping they won't leave right away, or you'll just stop queuing for the roulette, denying your own reward and giving more room for those who will stay whatever duty they end up in.

If those who feel the urge to leave on a whim suddenly decide to stop doing roulettes, we'll still do them at the same pace. Instead of waiting for a replacement inside, we'll wait for the Duty Finder to create a group outside. And at least, we'll be able to do something while we wait.

So, please, be my guest.