New Prelim Tank updates

to busy atmto double check but did it say shield oath was nerfed?

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

Dancing Edge exists.
http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Dancing_Edge

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I'm aware Dancing Edge is a thing. I guess I missed the part where Ninja is a tank now? >_>

If it wasn't clear from my post, I was talking exclusively about tank utility. Forcing a PLD/DRK composition to take a NIN (who is also automatically taking a DPS loss just so they can keep Dancing Edge up) doesn't seem reasonable at all to me when you can just swap out either the PLD or DRK for a WAR instead. Not only do you get higher OT damage, you get the slashing debuff too.

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Hrm... I don't feel like it's enough from just eyeballing it. Perhaps I just set my expectations too high for "big PLD changes".

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Pretty much. Either WAR needs beat with the nerf stick or PLD (and possibly DRK?) needs more changes.

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Originally Posted by raymon

to busy atmto double check but did it say shield oath was nerfed?

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No, it was buffed. The reduction to the damage YOU do was lowered from 20% to 15%, so PLD will do more damage in ShO now compared to what they used to.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

No, it was buffed. The reduction to the damage YOU do was lowered from 20% to 15%, so PLD will do more damage in ShO now compared to what they used to.

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my mistake then, i read it as "damage taken"

But that's kind of the thing with class synergy. Sure it's a DPS loss for the NIN personally but it sure as hell is better than the NIN not using it all for no reason. Its still a raid boost which seems to be NINs quirk. It's like arguing why SMN, BLM, SCH, and WHM don't have Foe Requiem or why BRD and MCH don't have Disembowl or why there isn't a Dragon Kick slave for MNK. Slash Resist down is the least of their worries at the moment.

Everyone has a NIN anyways and every tank wants a NIN just like everyone wants a BRD/MCH.

Personally I feel nerfing WAR doesn't solve the issues of the other two and really just adds another class that will complain about its drawbacks. But what do I know right, I'm just a biased WAR main.

I think it is important to not look at things in a vacuum when assessing their relevance in actual play. Player ability will always supersede job choice and to assume all players are operating at 100% efficiency, which must be done in order to view these things in a vacuum, isn't very realistic. In the context of real raiding and limited player ability and specific job supply, I pick my team based on their ability to play their classes, not the total potential of the classes in a vacuum. Are there preferred setups? Absolutely. But with in the actual context and state of the game these are a luxury as opposed to certainty and should be analyzed as such. Within context it seems pretty obvious why the changes picked were chosen. Paladin needed a buff. TP issues are real as an OT for everyone besides Warrior. As OT, it is correct that both Paladin and DRK lose certain moves, in return they gain DPS. This is the dynamic of risk reward present in many aspects of the game and while it would be cool to Reprisal freely, I understand the dynamics they are trying to implement within this context which adds depth to strategy.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

But that's kind of the thing with class synergy. Sure it's a DPS loss for the NIN personally but it sure as hell is better than the NIN not using it all for no reason.

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Besides, I suppose it's only a DPS loss when there is a WAR to apply it, right ?
If a NIN ends in a DRK/PLD setup, he will apply Dancing Edge

But it would be easier if DE was part of their optimal in every situation.

People are ignoring the most important fact of all.

Cure now has some use as a cross-class skill lmao. Because why waste 3000 MP to activate Divine Veil when you can do it with like 300? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also, I think the TP issues with Paladin actually make it kind of a bigger team player. Sure, it kinda sucks that PLD needs a Bard, Machinist, Ninja or Asstrologian to maintain high DPS, but that's why party composition is important if you're aiming for progression. Btw, with the TP change to Fast Blade, TP will actually last much longer considering you use Fast Blade at the start of each and every one of your combos. I'd dare say it'll extend PLD's OT rotation non-stop for about half a minute or more. Considering Midas and probably the new priamls seem to be more mechanic heavy, I don't think TP will be an issue for Paladin at all during 3.2 and onward. Also, the damage boost to Shield Oath, on top of the enmity boost to both the Oath and Savage Blade means that PLD will have an easier time building up on initial enmity. Chin up! The changes are good and solve what was needed if you think about it!

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Originally Posted by Astrelle_hyperion

Personally, I love cover and wish it were more useful. But I think that would require making it cross class able so all tracks have it.

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Cover is an awesome skill, really. But it needs to cover for magic damage as well if it intends to get used more, in my opinion. Range is debatable, if only because people have a bad habit of running instead of staying in one place while that glowing tether protects them. For this purpose, I imagine it gets either more or less use in the raid scene, where statics tend to know each other's moves better than the typical duty finder.

But cross classing it? It's a PLD skill, not a GLD skill, and Paladins are typically portrayed as guardians over others, if little else. The Cover skill is a mainstay and distinguishing feature for Paladins over the course of the games and many other settings. And it's a wonderful skill, allowing the PLD to take some of the heat from the MT without making them lose enmity.

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

People are ignoring the most important fact of all.

Cure now has some use as a cross-class skill lmao. Because why waste 3000 MP to activate Divine Veil when you can do it with like 300? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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While this is true... it's also 2 GCD's with a cast time to activate a single cooldown. Unless content does so much aoe damage that this is useful... its kinda wonky at best. That being said fracture is pretty much garbage now, so I guess you could throw cure in there.

Not to discount the PLD buffs. It's a step in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by Grey_D94

But cross classing it? It's a PLD skill, not a GLD skill, and Paladins are typically portrayed as guardians over others, if little else. The Cover skill is a mainstay and distinguishing feature for Paladins over the course of the games and many other settings. And it's a wonderful skill, allowing the PLD to take some of the heat from the MT without making them lose enmity.

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I think that what the first post here was about if the mechanics of a fight required it then it would need to be available to all tanks as it would then be a fight mechanic and not just a class mechanic, ala provoke.

correction: job mechanic

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

It just seems like the same core problems between the tanks haven't gone anywhere. If anything its worse now b/c DRK and PLD will be at each other's throats for that MT slot, while WAR looks on wondering wtf is wrong with them.

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And this is why I was most excited about tank gear being universal. I can bounce between DRK/PLD much sooner in this patch cycle than I was able to last time.

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Oh yeah and... Has anyone noticed that the tank stances having increased enmity to make up for the damage nerf is likely going to indirectly make it harder to tank out of tank stance? Wonder how that will play out.

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Just guessing, but I am still in the boat that tank damage isn’t getting completely nerfed. I am hoping this means that I can build a bigger lead while in tank stance, so the BB WAR won’t catch up quite so quickly.

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Originally Posted by Grey_D94

Cover is an awesome skill, really. But it needs to cover for magic damage as well if it intends to get used more, in my opinion.

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Jump is DRG's signature ability
Cover is PLD's signature ability

We should be able to Cover as often as DRG can jump and in multiple ways, too.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Jump is DRG's signature ability
Cover is PLD's signature ability

We should be able to Cover as often as DRG can jump and in multiple ways, too.

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Agreed, the problem with cover isnt the ability itself, it's the fact that the game meta shys away from strats that would obviously favor a single class. It would be cool if cover did something like negate positionals for DPS for the time it was activated since the theory behind positionals is catching a mob in a weak spot or even just to share FoF. That would keep with a sort of sharing theme and be beneficial for party DPS without making PLD feel like a damage dealer.

Not saying this in particular, but cover could be used for tons of things.

With Clemency and Divine Veil, their ability as an OT is even better considering they can end up putting a forcefield over the entire party (should they be in range), just like the actual Healers (Sacred Soil, Collective Unconscious, Stoneskin series), just by healing themselves or due to an observant Healer, until Divine Veil wears off. Also, Divine Veil now has a shorter recast timer (30s cut off of what it used to be), which means it may get more use in the raid scene as well.

With RA and GB getting potency buffs, and ShO losing some of its damage penalty, no, we PLD\\'s still may not be doing as much damage as your WAR\\'s as an OT, but we do provide a decent damage decrease for the MT and potentially the rest of the party. Please, pardon me for sounding somewhat proud of that.

(Sorry. Mobile doesn't let us edit.)

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

Cover is awesome, and in a few instance super useful. However because it's single job they can't design encounters to require it. It's the most tank utility thing out there, IMO. As much as I like it being a PLD signature, I'd rather it be a tank signature and more used. It feels more like being a tank.

Earthshaker cheese in t13, or bash in vault were nice, etc

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Originally Posted by Astrelle_hyperion

Cover is awesome, and in a few instance super useful. However because it's single job they can't design encounters to require it. It's the most tank utility thing out there, IMO. As much as I like it being a PLD signature, I'd rather it be a tank signature and more used. It feels more like being a tank.

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I really thinks it fits "PLD" more than "tanks."
Like Hallowed Ground, Cover is a way to bypass some mechanics, and that makes the job really fun to play. Earthshaker and Holy Shield Bash are two great examples, I'd really like to be able to pop Cover for every one of them. Stealing a debuff stack in Titan EX was fun too.

I'd also like if Sheltron was made a "AoE" block, something like "The next physical attack within 5y is automatically blocked" This way, you could intercept an attack and proc a Shield Swipe even if you're not the target.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

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To be fair, most times that a shield is needed the bosses are either untargetable (primal ultimates) or far away, for example certain instances of Thordan's Dragon's Rage. It is definitely not damage efficient, but it has a more personal use that you can actually time yourself instead of relying on healers, since Assize and Indomitability don't really activate DV when the cast time is more pressing for them. And since DV is a 30 second "buff" you can set it up and just time it yourself in place of Succor, Aspected Helios or Sacred Soil.

I'm not saying it's an amazing skill, and I think it's somewhat unnecessary (although tbh shields are never useless for heavy raidwide damage, re:Thordan phase 8 or A4S) but it's definitely MUCH better now than it was vanilla. If the range was much wider (who wants to be close to the tank besides the melee anyways?) and the recast timer was even lower I think it would make it pretty great. IMO it's not strong enough to warrant a 2 minute cooldown. Although, now that full Vit is the way to go... 2500 worth of shields is almost as much as an Adloquium at 210. It can be a decent extra mitigation tool for tank busters bringing PLD as OT, kinda like Cover was for the 4th or 5th Akh Morn back in the day.

Also, let's be honest, our cross class skills save Foresight and SS are garbage. At least one of them has a tangible use now lmao

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

Just guessing, but I am still in the boat that tank damage isn’t getting completely nerfed. I am hoping this means that I can build a bigger lead while in tank stance, so the BB WAR won’t catch up quite so quickly.

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Can't be bothered to find the link at the moment but its been stated that it officially is getting nerfed, and thats the whole reason why all the tank stances' enmity is getting boost and not just PLD

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Originally Posted by Syzygian

Oh yeah and... Has anyone noticed that the tank stances having increased enmity to make up for the damage nerf is likely going to indirectly make it harder to tank out of tank stance? Wonder how that will play out.

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

Just guessing, but I am still in the boat that tank damage isn’t getting completely nerfed. I am hoping this means that I can build a bigger lead while in tank stance, so the BB WAR won’t catch up quite so quickly.

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This is something that Pld's have been dealing with since ... well, forever. Even progression Pld's in early savage raids were forced to stay in tank stance longer than was optimal because their enmity multiplier was so awful. Pld's are very accustomed to having difficulties tanking outside of their tank stance.

I have a feeling that is the reason they buffed Savage Blade and not RoH. Pld's are now (hopefully) able to sustain enmity while using their Royal Authority Combo instead of RoH while cycling Sword Oath for every FoF. That way, once they establish a lead on the target, swapping to a RA rotation won't immediately damn them to losing enmity to the stronger potency hits of Drk's and War's (especially War's).

Drk's have a similar problem (though not nearly as pronounced) because their strongest combo (outside of Dark Arts) is Delirium Blade, which offers no enmity bonus whatsoever. That said, Drk's at least had the advantage of being able to establish a lead on their enmity. Given that the stance change is limited to simply "not canceling the combo bonus," I don't think anything will really change here for Drk enmity.

Pld's and Drk's should be relatively equal for how much of a lead they can establish now (I hope). Unfortunately, War's still might be a problem due to their OT Butcher's Block combo having such a high potency. That said, if Tank dmg is being universally lowered across the board, then I don't think it will be a problem. If Drk's could hold out against them before, they should be able to hold out against them now. Pld's will be the real wild card, since we don't know if the enmity adjustment to Savage Blade will be "enough."

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Originally Posted by Violette

Also with these changes, calling highest DPS combo is going to be WAR mt Paladin OT

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This is exactly the mindset that needs to be drowned like an unwanted kitten. With these buffs, no group will ever be forced to pick a DRK over a Pally or vice versa. That's parity, baby.

@szy -
I saw a reddit post indicating this in a translated piece. I didn't see it within the official notes, so please post if you find it. It's not that I don't trust reddit..... but.....

Personally, I find it rather annoying that the majority of those who complained about tank dps were, for the most part, bad at their job. I have never beaten a good Bard or Machinist as a DRK or PLD. (Depending on the fight WAR is usually neck and neck). I have beaten plenty of bad ones though.

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Originally Posted by AlexiIvaniskavich

@szy -
I saw a reddit post indicating this in a translated piece. I didn't see it within the official notes, so please post if you find it. It's not that I don't trust reddit..... but.....

Personally, I find it rather annoying that the majority of those who complained about tank dps were, for the most part, bad at their job. I have never beaten a good Bard or Machinist as a DRK or PLD. (Depending on the fight WAR is usually neck and neck). I have beaten plenty of bad ones though.

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The whole thing is a bottleneck designed to keep their new raids relevant for a longer period of time. Tanks in full 220 with the current meta would have trashed the new content. It would have been savage, but not in the way they imagine.

Raid: Wow, you're cute. Let me look at you. Wow. This your first time shooting a video, sweetie? How old are you?

New Content: I'm 18. Yeah, this is my first time. Ha! I mean, not my first time, but you know. Ha.

Raid: Cool, cool. You ever work with a strength tank before? Can you handle it? They get pretty rough. They looooove new content though.

New Content: Ha, yeah, I've heard of them. Yeah, I'm not scared though. Ha.

Raid: They're gonna push that dps. They're really gonna push it hard, I hope you're ready, sweetie. Okay, here they come!

(Jacked up Warrior and Paladin enters the scene. Stuff happens)

(New content shoots two more videos, then retires.)

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Snip.

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Okay, no. Let's not go through that analogy, yes? Brain bleach dispensers for everyone!

Now, back on track, WAR brings extra offense as an OT. PLD brings extra defense (potentially party-wide) when they do it and will have better attack power to their skills, even possibly being able to hold aggro on their RA combo.

DRK is clearly aimed towards MT'ing, what with its skills restoring MP and implementing a magic resistance debuff while they take damage. Their OT'ing seems a bit off to many, and for good reason! Continue.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Raid: Wow, you're cute. Let me look at you. Wow. This your first time shooting a video, sweetie? How old are you?

New Content: I'm 18. Yeah, this is my first time. Ha! I mean, not my first time, but you know. Ha.

Raid: Cool, cool. You ever work with a strength tank before? Can you handle it? They get pretty rough. They looooove new content though.

New Content: Ha, yeah, I've heard of them. Yeah, I'm not scared though. Ha.

Raid: They're gonna push that dps. They're really gonna push it hard, I hope you're ready, sweetie. Okay, here they come!

(Jacked up Warrior and Paladin enters the scene. Stuff happens)

(New content shoots two more videos, then retires.)

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Sir... this... is amazing.
I applaud you good sir, I truly do.

I don't understand why these changes took so long to tune. There's nothing that dramatic about any of it and it's all stuff they could have just thrown out there in 3.1 to see if it worked. Oh well. At least Clemency has a reasonable cast time now.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

This is exactly the mindset that needs to be drowned like an unwanted kitten. With these buffs, no group will ever be forced to pick a DRK over a Pally or vice versa. That's parity, baby.

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Your lack of humour disturbs me.
With the lb changes we'll be lucky if war/war isn't every groups progression. Like I keep saying, depends on the content.

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Originally Posted by FallenWings

PLD doesn't want to get hit when it is using its (largely unnecessary)support abilities as well as wanting to get hit for that sweet, sweet Shield Swipe.

Where is the Sheltron change? Why does Rage of Halone still suck so much but we have to still use it for certain situations? Why is AoE damage still nonexistent for PLDs? Why are stances still annoying to dance in?

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Now this just seems selfish. PLD will always stay inside the realm of best defensive tank with low damage. They already patched it to where it will not cancel weaponskill combos midway. Divine Veil is situational, not RoH. The strength Down debuff needs to be up at all times anyway even in OT stance. PLD also in its nature, is a tank that heals and protects others in tight situations. These "largely unnecessary" support abilities rely on the tank's judgement of a situation.

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

Now this just seems selfish. PLD will always stay inside the realm of best defensive tank with low damage. They already patched it to where it will not cancel weaponskill combos midway. Divine Veil is situational, not RoH. The strength Down debuff needs to be up at all times anyway even in OT stance. PLD also in its nature, is a tank that heals and protects others in tight situations. These "largely unnecessary" support abilities rely on the tank's judgement of a situation.

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The manipulator would like a word with you.

Also, best defensive tank ONLY works if you get a noticeable bonus from all that defence.

Which currently, you do not.

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Originally Posted by Violette

The manipulator would like a word with you.

Also, best defensive tank ONLY works if you get a noticeable bonus from all that defence.

Which currently, you do not.

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Dude you are super pessimistic xD.

Between the pal and mnk buffs. No reason to take drk anymore.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

While I understand the concept of the ability and how what it currently does makes sense with the name, the problem is that it (and Shield Swipe for PLD) is too locked behind MTing and doubly so when the debuff that Reprisal brings is/could be huge for raid utility which many of us agree DRK really needs.

While it would be requiring less attachment to the name, I still think making it so that you can DA+Reprisal or Parry proc+Reprisal would potentially be the simplest solution to making Reprisal more useful.

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Well...As OT, you could always be a daredevil and attempt to Dark Dance Parry a cleave from a boss to get a Reprisal debuff.

DA+Reprisal would be nice to see. Maybe grants 10% damage buff along with the 10% reduced damage already given to the boss.

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Originally Posted by Orpheus65478

Between the pal and mnk buffs. No reason to take drk anymore.

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Sir, read up on the subject. The forthcoming raids will be less difficult than Alexander Savage. Dark Knight mains who've already proven themselves in Savage won't lose their slots to anyone. The Paladin buffs simply mean that Paladin mains won't be stuck on the bench for three months waiting to gear up enough to get to play their favorite jobs. Everyone wins.

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Originally Posted by Violette

The manipulator would like a word with you.

Also, best defensive tank ONLY works if you get a noticeable bonus from all that defence.

Which currently, you do not.

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It's quite noticeable when its not used on bosses that use their ultimate enrage ability halfway through the fight. Timing it with raid wide AOE damage that is not the soft enrage makes or breaks PLD utility. Your healers will thank you for using something like Divine Veil stops 2-3 members from dying with ~100 HP left. Clemency and Cover work the same way. You need foresight of when things will happen to protect your DPS members from dying.

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Originally Posted by Februs

You just outlined the problem with it right there. The fact is that it is only a Dps gain on single targets. In any circumstance in which there is more than one, your auto-attack is essentially useless. Personally, I was hoping to see it adjusted for TP management. Something along the lines of swapping to SwO grants additional Tp for each auto attack, while increasing overall skill speed.

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Adjustments in this regard would be pretty great, but would do nothing for Shield Oath, and would make PLD even more dependent on high attack rate swords. Partly why I'd be fine with it being changed to a plain damage increase, as boring as that'd be. At least then it'd do everything every other tank stance does, rather than perpetuating their lack of enmity margin/sustain, with zero effect on multi-target situations.

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That's the same problem that we have now. The only way for a Pld to actually sustain their TP over the course of a fight is to actively sabotage their own Dps by not maintaining their attack. That's garbage. Clemency is great and all, but Pld's should not have to use it when they don't have to use it. It should be used for utility, not as a stop-gap in our TP draw.

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Merely (half) joking. If only because I have survived so much with seemingly disconnected healers on the virtue of Clemency alone, (e.g. soloing Thordan's cleave, stomp, cleave just with Foresight, Shelltron, and two prepped Clems, in i200 pure Str) I've gotten used to telling PLDs to use it if they're at 0 TP and everyone else is over 400. Since the TP changes have been so broad, it just seems like PLD and Monk alone are ever going to need TP help. If the AST can cover them, by Bard can just keep Foeing / shooting.

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I would have even taken an esuna effect. ANYTHING would have been better than the way it is now.

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Esuna would be damn nice, or at least have it remove and prevent ALL enfeeblements but stun/petrify (bind, heavy, slow, paralysis, draw-ins, knockbacks, on-action damage taken). Would also just be great if Cover were more often able to prevent any status effects from being applied to the target (without being transferred to yourself) by nature of 0 damage being taken.

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Originally Posted by Fernosaur

Dude you are super pessimistic xD.

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You're right.

Go run A1-4S with a paladin, then with a dark knight. Tell me if the extra defence the paladin bought to the table was worth it in the end.

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

It's quite noticeable when its not used on bosses that use their ultimate enrage ability halfway through the fight. Timing it with raid wide AOE damage that is not the soft enrage makes or breaks PLD utility. Your healers will thank you for using something like Divine Veil stops 2-3 members from dying with ~100 HP left. Clemency and Cover work the same way. You need foresight of when things will happen to protect your DPS members from dying.

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If it's survivable without it, it's not needed.
Point in case, you don't need Divine Veil to mitigate 6x splash, since it can be properly reduced via damage reduction abilities from the entire raid working together. It's NICE to have. But it's not needed.

Like in Thordan Ex. You DON'T need DV to survive Ultimate End (doing it drk/war style), you can mitigate it with just a sch doing sch things, or with ast working overtime, and still not need the extra health. It can be nice. But if it's not needed, it's not needed.

It's not my job to keep dps from dying as a tank. If they're dying, either they gotta get better or the healers should be keeping a better eye on them.

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Originally Posted by Orpheus65478

Between the pal and mnk buffs. No reason to take drk anymore.

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Reasons to take a DRK:
1. No monk
2. Magic heavy
3. Frequent tank swapping
4. Lots of opportunity to sustain self with Sole Survivor
5. Need a lot of dps

etc

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Originally Posted by Aaliyahrose

The strength Down debuff needs to be up at all times anyway even in OT stance

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Not true at all.

Awesome, glad I can finally dust off my Paladin from time to time and not feel totally gymped for playing him.

I wonder if Divine Veil triggers from the self heal component of clemency when you target another player? or only if you target yourself directly?

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Sir, read up on the subject. The forthcoming raids will be less difficult than Alexander Savage. Dark Knight mains who've already proven themselves in Savage won't lose their slots to anyone. The Paladin buffs simply mean that Paladin mains won't be stuck on the bench for three months waiting to gear up enough to get to play their favorite jobs. Everyone wins.

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Nah the way I look at it is certain raids are going to be magic inclined or physical inclined. So different raids will favor the Paladin and others the Dark Knight. Meanwhile the Warrior can go wherever it wants and do just fine in either. Which I imagine would effect party composition. So basically you either take a Warrior or you level both PLD and DRK to 60, gear both up and select the best "Job" for the task at hand.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Nah the way I look at it is certain raids are going to be magic inclined or physical inclined. So different raids will favor the Paladin and others the Dark Knight. Meanwhile the Warrior can go wherever it wants and do just fine in either. Which I imagine would effect party composition. So basically you either take a Warrior or you level both PLD and DRK to 60, gear both up and select the best "Job" for the task at hand.

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If damaged were mixed (ala flatten > 3x flame breathes), then war is best tank and you pick your OT based on who does more d33ps.

War best tank confirmed.

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Originally Posted by BadRNG

Not breaking combo is great but I am disappointed Grit/Oaths are still on GCD. (The new skill countdown UI picture shows Grit with a GCD still)

Also congrats PLD on all the damage buffs, definitely higher than I expected.

edit - Woah woah woah, there's no MP cost in that picture either, Grit no longer costs MP? That'd be huge if so.

http://img.finalfantasyxiv.com/t/dc9...9f4f549_97.png

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It does, just like Oaths. It's just that if you have it active, the MP number disappears.

With Oaths, if you have Shield up, only Sword will show an MP cost. If Sword is up, only Shield will show MP cost. Grit is the same.