If tank damage is now based on VIT, why do healers still have Cleric Stance?

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Originally Posted by Fatestorm

Guys, I totally get that Cleric Stance adds potency to attack and reduces potency of heals, and that it's the mark of a good healer to use it properly. My point is more, does anyone feel like the *spirit* of what they did with folding all of Tank damage into VIT, compared with the existence of this mechanic for Healers, is something of a double standard? I sorta do.

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Not for a second. I think you just really want to see that. It is obvious that it is not the same thing at all. It is a stance, not a stat. This is not a difficult concept.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

I think they were treating the Ninjutsu as a 2 second cast time pseudo-GCD action rather than the oGCD cooldown players use it as.

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I guess that would account for the difference, and it might also sort of explain why they completely missed the problem of Mudra lag. The 2-second pseudo-GCD thing does basically jive with three-steps but it's still strange to me that they wouldn't have assumed we'd do the other ones as fast as possible. I always do the best I can to understand how they arrive at the conclusions they do, but NIN's initial balance is one thing I just don't quite get.

WUUTT?? Pple complaining about having more hp AND still do good DPS???!?!?!?!?!?!?

Man, I wish my dps classes can have 20k+ hp and still do the intended dps.

As an Earthen Air Mage, if they make this change, I expect to be fully compensated for my INT accessories on my WHM.

However, I don't really like this change, because it's trying force us DPS-only WHM's into healing.

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Originally Posted by Gunspec

The same reason all tanks still have stances. You can't do everything at once, and you need to use stance abilities at the right time to focus on what is needed in the fight.

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I could see this thread being started from person making this comment in the "Live Letter 3.2 tank changes, vit effects tank attack"

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Originally Posted by Fourbestintoner

Say goodbye to tank stance because I will never use it again.

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It is not there for anything other then to artificially make the classes more complicated.

It could just be a buff that adds 10% damage and adds int based on your mnd. However people love needlessly making things more complicated then they should be.

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Originally Posted by Lexia

I could see this thread being started from person making this comment in the "Live Letter 3.2 tank changes, vit effects tank attack"

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If things weirdly remain the same (ie bosses are still doing Final Coil level damage to tanks at 60 in significantly higher ilvl gear), then tank stance would be essentially useless. However, I hope that SE is smart enough to make adjustments to boss damage to compensate for the higher HP expectations.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Ummmm.. the entire 1-60 questing experience is one huge set of DPS tests. Without DPS spells, you could not level. Period. Of course they gave CNJ/WHM damage spells for this solo content.

That clever players found a use for this stance in dungeon instances was not intentional, but it is what it is. I have no opinion in the quarrel about its use.

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more like those solo 1-60 fights had DPS checks. to teach you to DPS for groups.

How is it fair that EVERY OTHER JOB's abilities are DIRECTLY useful for the group. But they waste half of Healing jobs abilities on DPS moves "only" so you can beat story?

that's being short sighted sorry.

DPS from healers is a factor the developers take into account for content outside of solo 1-60 instances.

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Originally Posted by Critical-Limit

DPS from healers is a factor the developers take into account for content outside of solo 1-60 instances.

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Actually that not true, Yoshi-p has said they don't count healer dps when tuning a fight. It been brought up in like every thread made about if healers have to dps or not.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

If things weirdly remain the same (ie bosses are still doing Final Coil level damage to tanks at 60 in significantly higher ilvl gear), then tank stance would be essentially useless. However, I hope that SE is smart enough to make adjustments to boss damage to compensate for the higher HP expectations.

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I don't think the is final coil level damage in the last 2 floors of savage right now... Are you serious? Even in Thordan we have way more than final coil level damage.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

Oh there are. Tanks just use moves which prevent them from dying to... prevent them from dying. If these skills didn't exist (e.g. Holmgang still had the same effect as 2.0 Holmgang) you can bet people will be wearing VIT to survive attacks.

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No there isnt. Obviously I was including CD's in that statement.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

I seriously doubt that SE designed cleric stance to enable 'stance dancing' in dungeon instances.

You, the healer, need to advance through the MSQ and FATEs just like everyone else in order to level. You are at a decided disadvantage when it comes to dealing damage, since you've been putting your points into a non-combat attribute. To accommodate the leveling experience, you can run around in the world without a damage penalty by using cleric stance.

Paladins also suffer a damage penalty. It is mitigated by the fact that they can outlast an enemy they are fighting because of their vitality and armor.

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If it wasnt intended they would have disabled it by now. Do you honestly think they wouldnt have been aware of it?

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Originally Posted by Kitano123

If it wasnt intended they would have disabled it by now. Do you honestly think they wouldnt have been aware of it?

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Unintended does not mean unacceptable. Good game designers accept most emergent player strategies and only nerf them when they start causing serious imbalances in content. Bad game designers disable/ban/nerf anything that goes against their "vision" of how the game should be.

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

I don't think the is final coil level damage in the last 2 floors of savage right now... Are you serious? Even in Thordan we have way more than final coil level damage.

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Manipulator and Living Liquid both auto for as much as Bahamut does. There's a reason people are sitting out of tank stance 99% of those fights. If you think that player skill has gone up so high that we've reached the point where despite damage being exceptionally high (apparently) we can spend near entire Savage fights out of tank stance in near full STR accessories... I don't know what to tell you.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Manipulator and Living Liquid both auto for as much as Bahamut does. There's a reason people are sitting out of tank stance 99% of those fights. If you think that player skill has gone up so high that we've reached the point where despite damage being exceptionally high (apparently) we can spend near entire Savage fights out of tank stance in near full STR accessories... I don't know what to tell you.

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Funny, because Liquid crits like a mofo on his autoattacks

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Originally Posted by CorbinDallas

Funny, because Liquid crits like a mofo on his autoattacks

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So does Bahamut! Also Liquid gives you resistance down stacks, which increases his overall damage. But that's what tank swaps are for~~

Boss auto attacks in a raiding environment has always been an utter joke. It becomes less of a consistent damage and more oriented to predictable, damage spikes because most of it comes from their weaponskill/ability hits like fluid swing, flare breath or achalaons might.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Boss auto attacks in a raiding environment has always been an utter joke. It becomes less of a consistent damage and more oriented to predictable, damage spikes because most of it comes from their weaponskill/ability hits like fluid swing, flare breath or achalaons might.

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Correct! However, relative to our health, Bahamut's hit harder and Bahamut (unlike Liquid and Manipulator) required 100% tank stance uptime, especially during progression. So, what does this mean? Could it be, perhaps, maybe - just maybe - that bosses aren't actually hitting very hard? Could the fact that we're using STR accessories and near full DPS stance uptime mean that we're actually not taking a lot of damage? Could it be that we're getting away with this while, at times, both healers are DPSing because Med2 + Regen + Fairy heals cover all the pitiful auto attack damage?

Nah. Clearly... uh... players got... super good... and uh... I mean... they just like... overcame... all the difficulty... of... uh... um

Basically, things were pretty bad before - there were a lot of times to stance dance in a lot of fights (especially early ones) and there was a lot of healer DPSing (mainly SCH). But things have got massively out of control, and it's largely because the bosses aren't actually doing more... damage. Jobs had massive upward growth but it wasn't counter balanced by more incoming damage, except in the 4th leg and final phase of A4S if you actually do it the correct way.

The fact that bahamut is hitting relatively harder (compared to a dungeon that's supposed to be tuned harder) than 3s shows how terrible or misplaced their design intent is. If healers don't need to heal their tanks, they aren't performing their role of healing; they're dpsing.

All of what you said is discouraging tanks from striving to do their role of being more durable ( not that the game allows it because there's almost no mitigation stats) and I don't nessescarly agree with that approach. All it does is emphasize more on dps and naturally shift their attention to tanks/healers when more dos is needed... Rather than the dps roles whom are most likely performing at their peak.

Ideally bosses do enough damage (relative to the tanks health) at low gear levels that both healers need to heal as often as possible (outside of their openers, akin to Final Coil progression) and then with more gear they can start stance dancing more and all that stuff. Meanwhile the DPS focus on DPSing their hearts out. Obviously tanks can still maximize DPS, but do so in a way that isn't so... ridiculous. Basically, Final Coil was pretty great in terms of tank/healer/DPS balance and I'd like to return to that. I miss Inner Beasting cleaves instead of just rolling CDs and Fell Cleaving 24/7 - maybe that's just me though.

I actually had the same idea in the healer forums a while ago, which wasn't received too well. I agree with OP, MND should be healer damage base, not INT. Cleric can stay and be a damage buff/heal debuff to keep overall flow the same. I've seen healers try to DPS out of cleric far too often, and that way DPSing out of cleric wouldn't be a waste of mana.

Personally, I'd like to be something similar like WoW (yeah worst game ever, worst example ever, whatever: bite me): In that game healers need spell power, which is given by Intelligence and it's a unique stat for all spell users, both dps and healers, and some healers like discipline priests work alongside this benefit by making their damage also their heals. In general however, spell power is used for both healing and damaging and the only difference is the secondary stat (which is not the case here)

Honestly I don't know why this couldn't be the case: MND could be a healer-only stat that increases both their spell dmg AND heals (with proper balancing though) and leave INT to actual spell casters like BLM and similar. Considering how straightforward this game is (one stat for one class), I wish this was somehow the case also for healers.

Perhaps one day Piety could become useful again with ideas similar like these!

P.S.:And if the issue now is that 10% bonus damage from cleric stance...well, that's what balancing is for isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

P.S.:And if the issue now is that 10% bonus damage from cleric stance...well, that's what balancing is for isn't it?

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Yes! There are major balance issues. As an Earthen Air Mage, I am specced for DAMAGE and work very hard to do that. But then a Scholar comes along, who is specced for healing, and does more damage than me (WHILE healing) because of this overpowered skill . That is just OP.

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

P.S.:And if the issue now is that 10% bonus damage from cleric stance...well, that's what balancing is for isn't it?

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I doubt the issues perceived would be in that 10% nearly so much as just that healers would now encounter zero risk when 'swapping to' dps.
...Much like how Lustrate was previously usable in Cleric without loss such that 2 aetherflow stacks and a pre-adlo meant you basically didn't have to drop cleric even once in a quick pull.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I doubt the issues perceived would be in that 10% nearly so much as just that healers would now encounter zero risk when 'swapping to' dps.
...Much like how Lustrate was previously usable in Cleric without loss such that 2 aetherflow stacks and a pre-adlo meant you basically didn't have to drop cleric even once in a quick pull.

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Well why do we want "risks" when swapping to dps? dpsing instead of healing it's enough risk as it is, how about easing it up? There is "hard" and "artificially hard" and beside the cleric stance debacle, I don't really see a big issue if MND was a lone stat for healers. Again, only after some proper balancing.

Besides, by making MND a unique stat like that and making it both a dmg and healing stat for healers ONLY, we could have better designed classes one day (hey we already have a MELEE dps using a RANGED stat: talk about messed up).
Imagine a dancer class who heals while damaging and because of the MND stat, it works as it intented? Because with the system we have right now, it might be difficult to implement something like that. Same for RDM, which apparently is a Melee Magic user...which will it be? STR (because melee) or INT (because spell)?.

We don't want another scenario like this for dps too right?

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Ummmm.. the entire 1-60 questing experience is one huge set of DPS tests. Without DPS spells, you could not level. Period. Of course they gave CNJ/WHM damage spells for this solo content.

That clever players found a use for this stance in dungeon instances was not intentional, but it is what it is. I have no opinion in the quarrel about its use.

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Or maybe every healer realized that they had a LOT of downtime when queuing into their first dungeon, and a few thought "hm, it sure is ineffective of me to stand here and do nothing for more than 50% of a fight's length", while others ignored half their skills and took it upon themselves to spam Cure whenever their tank fell below 100% HP, patting themselves on the back for doing an extremely superfluous job. Cleric stance is not blocked out during a dungeon, and neither are any of your offensive spells (which make up roughly half of your skills), because this game was not designed with healers full-time healing in mind, and leveling a healer through dungeons should make that blatantly clear.

Anyway, to TC: It's not a double standard because right now, a healer can have their cake and eat it too. Their main primary stat, MND, increases their healing potency, and they have a skill that changes their MND rating with their INT rating, letting them use offensive spells at their full strength, meaning that they do not have to compromise between healing potency and offensive spell potency when gearing up. Tanks can only equip one STR or VIT accessory in the same slot, meaning they have to balance out how much HP their are comfortable with having for the content at hand, against how much strength they want in order to increase their damage, self heals, and drop their reliance on their agro combo if they are a DRK; no other role in this game has to make such a decision.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

You mean kind of like they did for PvP, which caused a mass-exodus of healers from any and all Frontlines matches? Talk about the proof being in the pudding there!

Anyway, yeah. Now both healers and tanks have their 'DPS stance'. The main difference is that tanks previously had to gear differently to do this, while healers did not. Now tanks can stick with tanking gear and get all of the benefits of good damage along with their crazy defense and HP. I'm very interested to see what it does to my Paladin, since I have always geared for Vitality, and I'll be more than a little disappointed if it amounts to a tiny damage boost.

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I don't PvP. :)

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Originally Posted by Fatestorm

As the title suggests: If in 3.2, they are going to adjust Tank damage so that their damage is based mostly on VIT--their main stat--then why do Healers still have to do a Cleric Stance dance on/off game for DPS? Why not remove the cumbersome skill entirely, and just make Healer damage based mostly on MND?

What, honestly, is the difference here?

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It's funny that you don't even ask why your gear still have plenty of our main stat ?
As a PLD, can I have as much MND as your Vitality ?

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

You mean kind of like they did for PvP, which caused a mass-exodus of healers from any and all Frontlines matches?

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I don't really care about most of this, but I have to point out, the reason WHY they removed Cleric stance from Frontlines is specifically because healers were not only nigh impregnable (There was nothing more horrifying then seeing a party full of 8 WHM, talk about unkillable), they were singlehandedly wiping out entire alliances with a mere five or six members, and not even the best players could actually kill a healer during that era. The reason pretend healers stopped queueing for Frontlines is cause they couldn't abuse their overpowered attacks and actually had to, you know, contribute to survivability instead of trolling. SE saw how it was being abused, and removed it.

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Originally Posted by Fatestorm

As the title suggests: If in 3.2, they are going to adjust Tank damage so that their damage is based mostly on VIT--their main stat--then why do Healers still have to do a Cleric Stance dance on/off game for DPS? Why not remove the cumbersome skill entirely, and just make Healer damage based mostly on MND?

What, honestly, is the difference here?

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Tanks never had a stance option to switch their str and vit stats to have the points present where they needed to be on the fly? Tanks really had the requirement to decide between str and vit while healers could focus on mind and cleric stance when needed for the damage output.

I don't disagree with you. I'm unsure to the extent that I agree with you. But I also think it's a good question to ask, consider, question, etc. I might be in agreement.

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

Well why do we want "risks" when swapping to dps? dpsing instead of healing it's enough risk as it is, how about easing it up?

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I just thought I'd say that No. If they removed cleric stance there would be no risk to DPSing at all as a healer. Unless they made cast times like 4x as long as they are now.

Also some may think that the healer dpsing threads are annoying now, if they made this change then there would be no excuses for healers not DPSing. It would become the 100% expected from a healer.

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Originally Posted by Voltyblast

Well why do we want "risks" when swapping to dps? dpsing instead of healing it's enough risk as it is, how about easing it up? There is "hard" and "artificially hard" and beside the cleric stance debacle, I don't really see a big issue if MND was a lone stat for healers. Again, only after some proper balancing.

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Because of the concept of risk versus reward - and the concept of a skill ceiling. Just like melee DPS need to land positionals and use oGCDs optimally, healing DPS requires you to understand when to be in cleric and when not to be. If Cleric (or its cooldown, really) were removed, it would lower the skill ceiling of healing. That's not the case for the VIT change, as it doesn't change that tanks need to know when to be in each stance. (If anything, the VIT change probably lowers the skill ceiling for healers more than tanks, as it means tanks won't need to be topped up quite as much for moderately powerful busters.)

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

No, Cleric Stance is there to allow Healers to meet the DpS requirements of Solo content without being forced to party like they are in other MMOs. Healers stance dancing in duties is the result of unintended emergent gameplay.

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Here we go...

I don't get this 'should a healer dps or not'-debate...

1) In almost every fight (except during boss' reflect mechanics like Hellsclaw's Counter Manoeuvre or necessary dps-stops) every player should use every 1.x-2.x seconds (depending on his GCD duration) one of his GCD (in a usefull way).
2) damage should be dealt in CS, healing should occur out of CS.
3) Overheal should be avoided.

If you don't follow these rules you're either bad, lazy or new/not experienced.

All I know is that a Priest in Wow did not DPS if you were a healer, nor did any other healing class. If you did, you lost your mana quickly. I will not play a healer in this game until they fix this dps/healer broken system. If I am a healer I am doing so to HEAL not DPS.

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Originally Posted by Madjames

All I know is that a Priest in Wow did not DPS if you were a healer, nor did any other healing class. If you did, you lost your mana quickly. I will not play a healer in this game until they fix this dps/healer broken system. If I am a healer I am doing so to HEAL not DPS.

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because if one game does it one way, they all should./s
you can continue to be a sub par healer.

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Originally Posted by Kietsu

Because of the concept of risk versus reward - and the concept of a skill ceiling. Just like melee DPS need to land positionals and use oGCDs optimally, healing DPS requires you to understand when to be in cleric and when not to be. If Cleric (or its cooldown, really) were removed, it would lower the skill ceiling of healing.

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First of all, my point is that the the process of healing while dpsing is a risk as it is as a matter of tactic: you dps instead of heal and you put the the team to a risk to improve the run. Which I'm TOTALLY fine about it.

However, what I meant by "easing it up" is by making it meta: removing Cleric stance and making MND a single stat will, in essence, make it even more risky because you are no more stopped by swapping stances. Since this game is 99% about dps (and you can't say this is not true), if they ever removed the satnce healers will also be able to do healing AND dps without swaps or whatsoever and without any drawbacks from doing both actions at once, the risk will become even higher but also become mandatory. (which is a debatable matter: I honestly don't like the dps-healers but I'm also fine doing it, but it's not the focal point)

In short my question is simply one: "Why not simply allow MND to do both spell dmg and healing for healers, and and remove essentially the needless fat around it?"

Infact...

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Originally Posted by Kietsu

...That's not the case for the VIT change, as it doesn't change that tanks need to know when to be in each stance. (If anything, the VIT change probably lowers the skill ceiling for healers more than tanks, as it means tanks won't need to be topped up quite as much for moderately powerful busters.)

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It actually changes a lot if you think about it. Infact thanks to the changes, tanks will now essentially be simplified into VIT and remove the "fat" about the complexity and actually award more risk because with maxed out VIT on a tank they can FINALLY dish out more dps, probably even in Sword Oath or without Grit, without losing much in return. And even while on their tanking stance the damage they'll dish out will be (probably) higher than before and also be able to survive longer. Survive and dps at the same time, without the need of losing any single HP

Basically, they made tanks "tanks" again and made their main stat beneficial at last.

Yes you lose 20% damage reduction as a PLD or DRK, but with full out Vit you have more than enough to maintain yourself AND dish out a lot of dps without any drawbacks, enhancing the risk factor. Warriors are on another whole level.
It would be the same for healers: with one stat they can easily do both healing and dps, but on the other hand they'd be constantly doing that and without any drawbacks. Right now, the drawback for healer is called "20% less healing" and while I think it's a risky yet rewarding tactic, I find this only "artificially hard" rather than normally hard.

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Originally Posted by Kaze3434

because if one game does it one way, they all should./s
you can continue to be a sub par healer.

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I don't know about one game almost all MMOs that adopt this combat system have it this way where healers are there to just heal if you DPS you generally lose quite a bit of your mana and tank dies quickly FFXIV is just the weird one...

Honestly, I'm cool with CS for healers. It raises the skill ceiling and differentiates the good from the bad (or lazy/learning) healers.

If I could change anything, I would make it to where tanks have a similar skill that swaps VIT with STR that works identical to CS, and have everything scale of STR still.

It would turn Tanks into DPS when they weren't tanking. Of course, it would make it completely impossible for them to tank at all while in it, so they'd have to take it off to MT or pick up adds or whatever. But, basically a healer becomes worthless as a healer in CS so I don't see why giving tanks a similar mechanic would be undoable. In fights where only one tank is necessary it would be golden. It would be a little cumbersome to use because tanks are also dealing with offensive/defensive stances, but, like CS, it would just raise the skill ceiling significantly.

ETA: However, I'm confident that the devs have thought of this and decided against it for whatever reason. So it's basically just a musing of mine - don't expect it to happen.

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Originally Posted by Remus

I don't know about one game almost all MMOs that adopt this combat system have it this way where healers are there to just heal if you DPS you generally lose quite a bit of your mana and tank dies quickly FFXIV is just the weird one...

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Even if every other game in the world played that way, FFXIV does not have to play that way. In fact, I like the way FFXIV is set up, it's unique. If they made encounters that required 100% healing, I would get behind it, but they don't so I'll fill that time with something useful, thanks.

Don't hold your breath for SE "fixing" broken healers. To them (and most of the playerbase) they're not broken.