3.2 PvP: Feast Game Mode Discussion Thread.

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

During the Letter from the Producer LIVE, we mentioned that only the opposing team can pick up medals that are dropped from your teammates. However, in situations where the medals are not picked up within a certain amount of time, then they will be returned to their owner.

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Very interesting. So, basically, we have a limited amount of time to collect on our kill credits ... I was already picturing a mad scramble to scrap over fallen medals, but this makes it much more urgent. It should also open up some fun tactical scenarios, such as using medals as bait (beware of ninjas).

That said, I'm very curious as to how long the interaction bar is. Is it fast? Is it slow? Does the time required to interact with the medals vary depending on the number of medals you are picking up? Can the interaction bar be interrupted (I'm assuming yes, for this one)? If yes, does interruptions work the same way as they do in PvE, and is the players defense taken into account? (ie: does a tank have better odds of picking up a medal uninterrupted than, say, a healer?)

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

As The Feast will be played with an item level sync it will be treated the same as Seal Rock, where morale and the effects of materia will not be taken into account. Additionally, in order to open it up to a wider range of players, consumable items such as food and potions cannot be used.

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I assumed that this was the case ... It's a very disappointing decision though. I was at least was hoping that the Ranked versions of the game mode would utilize the PvP morale system and materia to increase the level of competition among the more hardcore PvP'ers. Considering the PvP armour does not provide a substantial advantage over the average PvE set (even without the level sync), it's kind of sad that the PvP'ers won't get to use the gear that they worked so hard for, especially considering that the average item level of PvE gear sets is equivalent to the PvP sets.

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Originally Posted by Beckett

When are Morale and PVP materia going to be removed from the game? It's pretty clear that there is no intention of ever using them again.

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Basically this lol

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

wait so theres no ranking for 8 vs 8?? reason i like frontlines is because theres more people to fight lol
seems kinda wierd they would even have a 8 vs 8 mode if not gonna have rankings for it = =

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Yes and no.

From what I've read so far, the 8 vs. 8 game mode seems to be directed at the more casual audience of PvP (ie: the people who prefer the more relaxed environment of Frontlines). Keeping it un-ranked provides an area for casual players to enjoy the game mode without having to get stomped on by players who are decidedly more invested in victory. For example, in Frontlines hardcore players and casual players can Q together. So, there are times when you get matches in which a full pre-made is going against a full-group of randoms. It's not fair, and more often than not, the randoms get stomped on (there are exceptions, obviously).

The same thing often happens in the Wolves Den game mode during Friday Night Fights. Everyone is supposed to Q up solo, but there are always a few who Q up as a group of 2 or 3. They're basically stacking the deck, and when they run across a full group or randoms it is an incredibly unfair match. Having the 8 vs. 8 mode be ranked would allow for this to happen in Feast as well, and you would end up with some people skyrocketing up to the top of the rankings by hunting PuGs with a Pre-made. The only way to avoid it would be to restrict the Q to be solo only, but then you'd have the other side of the argument in which casual players would not be allowed to Q up with their friends to play. The GC restrictions caused the same problem in FL, and a lot of people refuse to play it simply because they can't play it with their friends.

Another issue is Tome hunting. In FL, because there are no Ranked/Un-ranked game modes, Tome hunting players are put into the pot with people who actually care about winning. You end up with teams in which some people are actually trying to win the match and maintain a somewhat decent winning record, and some people are only there to smell the flowers and collect their paycheck. That's not fair to the people who take it seriously.

I agree that it sucks that the bigger game mode is un-ranked and that our wins in it won't count to our overall performance, but, honestly, it keeping it un-ranked is the only way to keep it fair for everyone. My only real concern over it is how much it will divide the player base, and how that will effect Q times.

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Originally Posted by Februs

Yes and no.

From what I've read so far, the 8 vs. 8 game mode seems to be directed at the more casual audience of PvP (ie: the people who prefer the more relaxed environment of Frontlines).

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meh wasnt looking forward to this to begin with since will kill frontlines queue times...probably wont even try it nows after reading that lol ._. i found wolves den boring small arena and only 4 vs 4.. b4 i started playin ff14 in beta i came from games that had full on wars sometimes had 100 people attacking your territory and were forced to make alliances with guilds from your faction to stand a chance of keeping the territory for the week honestly it seems like they have no idea what to do for pvp lol

they should just make 8 vs 8 only queueable solo problem solved :3

I feel like my stock of PVP materia will never be used =/

Goodbye Stun and sleep resistance I'll miss you.

I think I have to agree we should just get rid of morale and pvp materia if they're never going to be used.

Why not remove stats entirely from the game since they mostly do nothing (except for main stats). While you're at it remove all classes also since all need to be exactly the same so its balanced. Lastly why even have items? Just make it all cosmetic and make it a vertical stat upgrade per level.

Seems to me they are dumbing down every aspect of customization to make things "fair". Is this still an MMO-"RPG" or did i miss the memo?

Entirely off topic, but...

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Originally Posted by DukeGr

Why not remove stats entirely from the game since they mostly do nothing (except for main stats).

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Not from the game, but they certainly should remove stats from gear at this point... Gear is already purely cosmetic in this game, unless you're doing the 1% of content that might require you to be well geared, that is... Even then, that's generally just a matter of chasing Item Level... A system by which your stats increase from doing content would be a lot better for the long term of this game... Nobody does Crystal Tower anymore; That gear is worthless outside vanity. If, instead of gear providing stats though, we had a system by which we get a permanent stat boost from doing content, Crystal Tower would still be completely relevant, depending on how the system is worked (don't have a do once and done system, that would be irrelevant quickly). Rather than skipping over content and gear, everything would be relevant, because everything would provide a permanent stat boost to your character. You'd still do Crystal Tower, because you'd still want the stats boost provided there in. In a way that would just be reviving the old Physical Level, but with a bit of a twist, you don't raise it the same way you raise your regular level, you raise it doing content. Physical Level would then replace Item Level, except we wouldn't be able to skip Physical Levels.

Make that expansive enough, and there is no less customization in the game than any other old RPG... All old RPGs hit a point where you maxed everything out, XIV would be the same, the customization comes in the journey, not the destination; Which stats you prioritize and when. Do you jump straight into raids to raise your primary stat and quickly raise your Physical Level, or do you concentrate on the easy/quick content to raise secondary stats? Something like Void Ark then becomes the catch-up content it's meant to be. I had i200 already, Void Ark was worthless to me. If, instead, doing Void Ark was raising my Physical Level to the same point (or close) everyone who'd already done Alexander had reached, then it makes Alexander easier. Meanwhile people who've already done Alexander are popping into Void Ark to raise the Physical Level further in preparation for the next Alexander raid. I mean, something like Bismarck (Extreme) was completely irrelevant at launch, do once for Ravana (Extreme) and now you don't even need to do that... If it was worth 2 Physical Levels worth of stat boosts though? Completely relevant.

As far as PvP goes... I don't get the need for gear to do anything... It's an advantage, no matter how small it may be... Matches should be balanced, all you achieve by making unbalanced matches is a situation in which new players cannot jump in... If a new player had to grind to PvP Rank 50 in order to wear the Lv60 PvP stuff to be competitive in Feast, then they're not going to be able to join Feast right away, and that's shitty. The rewards for PvP are cosmetic, and always should be. We earn the right to show off that we can equip that gear, granted the existing gear is terrible for this (while the new Seasonal Ranking stuff is far better). I don't know about anyone else, but I PvP because it's fun, not so I can gain an advantage over anyone else... I don't want a situation where someone beat me because they had Sleep Resistance Materia and I didn't, I want a situation where someone beat me because they out played me. Then out playing them is what motivates me to come back, gear/stat/consumable/etc. advantages just mess things up IMO. If I wanted to grind gear to be at the top of my game, I'd be playing PvE content. PvP is about exactly that; Player versus Player, not Player As stats versus Player Bs stats.

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

meh wasnt looking forward to this to begin with since will kill frontlines queue times...probably wont even try it nows after reading that lol ._. i found wolves den boring small arena and only 4 vs 4.

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SE has definitely struggled with PvP. Honestly, they just haven't given it the amount of time and effort it requires to make it successful, so it hasn't been. FFXIV really is a PvE oriented game, after all.

Personally, I have enjoyed what few WD matches I've gotten into. they are a bit repetitive, but the smaller game mode requires much more effort and skill. Tactics and group composition are much more important than in the 72 man gank-spanks, so I prefer it. The competition feels more intense. I get that it's not for everyone, though.

That said, Feast and WD are not the same. Feast is objective based. It's not just a death match. WD might not be your thing, but I wouldn't judge Feast based off of that game mode.

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

they should just make 8 vs 8 only queueable solo problem solved :3

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Then you'd have the same problem that people had with GC restrictions. You could not Q up with friends. People would complain that the casual version is too restrictive, because they want to Q up with their buddies.

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Originally Posted by Februs

SE has definitely struggled with PvP. Honestly, they just haven't given it the amount of time and effort it requires to make it successful, so it hasn't been. FFXIV really is a PvE oriented game, after all.

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pvp in ff14 has potential they just need to stop addin new modes in the hopes it will "improve" queue times give it a month or so and feast will have the same problem as the rest of the pvp modes have ;/

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Originally Posted by Spawnie

pvp in ff14 has potential they just need to stop addin new modes in the hopes it will "improve" queue times give it a month or so and feast will have the same problem as the rest of the pvp modes have ;/

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I'm still holding a candle that SE will (one day) bump up the level caps of Secure and Slaughter and include them in the Frontlines Roulette. I mean, they put the Roulette in the game, but it only cycles ONE game mode. That's just silly. It would make brilliant sense for them to have adjusted the other two game modes to be included and reduce Q lines.

I am also hoping that they will eventually bump up WD to lvl 60 and include Ranked versions that are compatible with Feast rankings. After that's done, I'd like to see ALL of these modes slotted into appropriate PvP Roulettes. Ideally, what I would eventually like to see in the DF is:

• Frontlines Roulette (Lvl 60 Secure, Slaughter, and Seize).
  
• PvP Roulette (Un-ranked. Would include WD, Feast, AND Frontlines. First come first serve ... would obviously work best if they removed GC restrictions, but we can only rub those two nickles so hard)
  
• PvP Roulette (Ranked. Would include WD and Feast ranked modes only. Solo and Party supported)

I wouldn't expect them to do this right away (though it would be nice), because they'll likely be focused with the successful launch of Feast first. That only makes sense, because it's smart to provide the best support possible to a new product at launch, instead of dividing your attention. This is especially true when your product is made for a more hardcore audience. Die-hard players are the ones who stick around the longest. Know your market, as they say. You don't give all your customer service to the guys and gals who only come around once in a while (which is one of the reasons why Frontline Q's always die shortly after their release. Casual players don't keep playing when there is other stuff to do).

That said, I would like to see it happen as early as Season 2 of Feast. Not only would it be a great boon to Q's overall, but it would appeal to ALL of the players to have roulette's which actually serve a function. Tome bonuses would bring in casual players. Hardcore players could hop lobbies easier when not running in a pre-made, and there would be greater variety in game modes to keep us interested, instead of running the same thing over and over. The only way that could get better is if they remove the GC restrictions ... but I wouldn't want to ask for too much ...

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Originally Posted by Februs

I'm still holding a candle that SE will (one day) bump up the level caps of Secure and Slaughter and include them in the Frontlines Roulette. I mean, they put the Roulette in the game, but it only cycles ONE game mode. That's just silly. It would make brilliant sense for them to have adjusted the other two game modes to be included and reduce Q lines.

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? I still get Secure and Slaughter sometimes when I do roulette. And when it happens someone usually bitch about it haha. Frontline roulette is lvl 50; not 60.

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Originally Posted by Guesswhat

? I still get Secure and Slaughter sometimes when I do roulette. And when it happens someone usually bitch about it haha. Frontline roulette is lvl 50; not 60.

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You are a lucky person. Since the implementation of that roulette I have only ever gotten Seize. Regardless, that's not the point. The main idea is not just to have them included in the Roulette. It's to have them all at the same level to increase the the odds of a successful Q and provide variety in the PvP community.

The way it is now, the game modes are incompatible. Most people prefer to play at the level cap with all of their skills, so the vast majority of direct PvP Q's are for Seize. Lately, Secure and Slaughter have gained a bit more traction because people are trying to farm some poetics for that god awful relic, but Seize is still, by far, more populated. For this reason, the odds of the roulette placing you into Seize are substantially higher than getting placed into a Secure or Slaughter match. If SE raised the level cap of Secure and Slaughter (and adjusted rewards as necessary), this would not be the case. People would Q for the game mode they want to play, rather than the one that they have been pigeon holed into by the level and tome restrictions. Instead of cluttering everyone into a single game mode, there would be a variety. The roulette would fill the blanks (as it should), and the Q line would flow a little easier.

Of course, this would still only be a band-aid fix. If they truly wanted to fix the PvP Q's for Frontlines they would raise the level cap and remove GC restrictions. A casual game mode really should have unrestricted access if they want it to be successful. That means a shared level cap across all three game modes, no party restrictions (GC or otherwise), and a roulette to fill parties as fast as possible. Right now, we only have a roulette that serves almost no function, slots most players into a single game mode, and can often be slower than directly Q'ing for the game mode you want to play.

Wonder how feasible it would be to turn Secure and Slaughter into more of a Diadem style event... A persistent PvP zone you can just jump into, with the Secure/Slaughter game modes being time based; You just jump into Frontlines, you have 15 minutes of solid PvPing, perhaps Secure is going on so you work on that, then midway through drones crash the party and we switch to Slaughter type. In those 15 minutes you need to reach x points to receive the standard rewards we currently get (rather than the points being the win condition), but you can stick around for achievements/fun/etc. Honestly what I expected from Secure way back when anyway...

Just boost content in the area with some PvE Grand Company NPCs helping out, that way you could probably just jump in and get something done in the area. Arguably that isn't PvP, but it would maintain the Grand Company theme, while completely destroying queue times, just like Diadem (with a FC airship) you'd get in instantly. It would be more of a PvE area, but given we'd be able to get in instantly I imagine there would be a constant PvP environment.

PVP content got delayed until 2 weeks later. :^)

From the trailer, it seems like picking up coins from fallen enemies is as simple as just running through their corpse.

Area looks to have three sections like I suspected, but walls have popped out of no where (I don't think I missed them in the original screenshots), so we can break line of sight at least...

Not entirely sure if it is PvP related, but a new set of gear was shown in the Feast section of the trailer. Could be random crafted gear, could be a new set of PvP gear.

Also, please let that be the battle theme for Feast...

If that is just one map, it looks so big for 4v4 lol

The Feast seems to be showing off new gear in the 3.2 trailer video, the Tank and DRG sets were seen previously in Eorzea Collection 2016W (at 0:18-0:20 and 1:24-1:25). The other sets are harder to see in the trailer video. These might be new PvP sets or these might be new dungeon sets, since all of the PvE content of the video seems to be done in the new tome gear.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...p_in_pvp_i150/

Pretty much main WHM in pvp...might just skip this content. <_<

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Originally Posted by Recaldy

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...p_in_pvp_i150/

Pretty much main WHM in pvp...might just skip this content. <_<

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http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image..._Aura_Icon.png http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image...Stone_Icon.png http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image...epose_Icon.png http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image...ecast_Icon.png http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image...rd_II_Icon.png http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image...tcast_Icon.png http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image...imity_Icon.png http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/image...Burst_Icon.png

Mmm that sprint buff for non-mages classes scare me a lot ._.

Greetings,

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Originally Posted by Atreus

Can you please clarify if this includes icarus wings and regain feathers?

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You won't be able to use these items inside The Feast, but we're adjusting Sprint so that while inside PvP content, it will be possible to use this action without consuming any TP. However, players will still be able to use these items inside Frontline just like before.

Currently, the secondary stats found on Aetherial gear aren't applied to your character while you are level synced or item level synced. In Patch 3.2, we're planning to adjust this so that the secondary stats will have an adequate amount of value matching the synced level or item level.

Along with this change, the item level 150 equipment obtainable from The Diadem will be changed to item level 160. Since the item level sync set for The Feast is 150, the item level 150 equipment from The Diadem will become too powerful. This measure has been put in place as a balance adjustment. With this adjustment, all the secondary stats from equipment higher than item level 150 will sync to an adequate value, making it possible for players to fight without worrying about certain gear being too powerful.

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

You won't be able to use these items inside The Feast, but we're adjusting Sprint so that while inside PvP content, it will be possible to use this action without consuming any TP. However, players will still be able to use these items inside Frontline just like before.

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Thanks for the response. We appreciate the info.

I am super hyped for the sprint buff. It was a ROYAL PAIN in the butt to re-arrange PvP hotbars to take quick advantage of TP regen items, and Enliven just did not cut it for a Tank (no invigorate). This should increase the speed of the fights as well ... It should also help melee classes who don't have a "gap closer" keep up with ranged opponents like Summoners without being too unfair (given that they, as well, can just pop sprint and run away). All in all, I think this is a good change.

The gear changes are interesting as well. As much as I wasn't pleased to hear about the level sync, I'm happy to see that they are putting in the effort to make sure existing gear sets remain balanced (though I still think that Ranked PvP sets should have a slight advantage). You were very sly not to mention if the sets we see in the PvP portion of the trailer were PvP gear or not, though.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

From the trailer, it seems like picking up coins from fallen enemies is as simple as just running through their corpse.

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This definitely seems to be the case, which means that we cannot interrupt a player from picking up medals, short of killing the player before they reach them. In one way, I really like this. It will ensure that the game matches keep a fast pace and establish a sense of urgency. It will also mean that it will be easier to split medals across the team since anyone can just run them over to get them. No need to worry about a healer or caster putting their neck on the line while waiting for a interaction bar.

In another way, though, there will be a less tactical approach to the match progression, since the only way to stop a person from scoring is to kill them. That means that bait tactics will be less effective. ... Though, I suppose Pld's can delay the inevitable by stun locking via shield bash. That should work out just as well.

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Originally Posted by xxczx

If that is just one map, it looks so big for 4v4 lol

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This was probably unavoidable, since the casual matches are 8 v 8. I think SE is banking on the 8 v 8 unranked mode to be the more popular one (especially for tome hunters, who don't actually give a hoot about winning). So the arena had to be big enough to accommodate both. It should work out in 4 v 4 as well, though. The fact that we can freely sprint around means that we can utilize the extra space if we need to cheese it away from an enemy (healers and casters especially).

There also appears to be different sized maps for 4v4 and 8v8. Looking at the arena when the first group runs in shows a circle floor surrounded by water. Then, later on, the arena gains floors and a square border surrounded by water.

There also seems to be some strange weather effects occurring in the last shot of the PvP section of the trailer, and there is an aetheric effect surrounding the arena. Given that everyone is casting LB's at that point, I'm assuming the match has been going on for a while with no deaths, so maybe this is the "Culling Time" debuff that they mentioned?

Any thoughts on that?

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Originally Posted by Februs

There also seems to be some strange weather effects occurring in the last shot of the PvP section of the trailer, and there is an aetheric effect surrounding the arena. Given that everyone is casting LB's at that point, I'm assuming the match has been going on for a while with no deaths, so maybe this is the "Culling Time" debuff that they mentioned?

Any thoughts on that?

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Yes, you are correct. "This time occurs when a player isn’t defeated for certain amount of time. If no one is defeated the debuff will continue to accumulate, but once an enemy or ally is defeated the debuff is removed. This will also affect the background and sound."

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Originally Posted by xxczx

snip

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None of those will matter when stuns shadow you 100% of the fight. Half of those get interrupted by ANYTHING a melee can do to a healer so no. Only three of those help and 2 of 3 don't matter when I'm stunned right after starting the cast. All that and I'll get silenced by the bard cause when isn't there a lazy ranged class in pvp. That person won't be using it on a smn either.

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Originally Posted by Recaldy

None of those will matter when stuns shadow you 100% of the fight. Half of those get interrupted by ANYTHING a melee can do to a healer so no. Only three of those help and 2 of 3 don't matter when I'm stunned right after starting the cast. All that and I'll get silenced by the bard cause when isn't there a lazy ranged class in pvp. That person won't be using it on a smn either.

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I think you're worrying too much.

Healers have plenty of survive-ability in Wolves Den. Next to Tanks, a good healer is often the hardest target to kill. A lot of the time this leads to squishier targets (Smn's/Blm's/Nin's/Brds. etc) taking way more aggro than healers. Sprinting was not their sole advantage over melee classes either, especially considering stuns stop sprints anyway. Really, there won't be any difference between stunlocks in Feast and WD. A stun target still can't sprint, so nothing changed. Interruptions still work the same way too, so, again, nothing changed.

The only thing that did change is that melee can freely sprint ... but so what? For Mnk's and Drg's this was already a non-issue, because they have gap closers in their skill kits. Further, in the event that they did have to use sprint, they had invigorate / enliven / Icarus wings to instantly restore their Tp back to full. It takes a bit of working with your hotbar, but a skilled PvP'er never worried about Sprinting. The only jobs this might actually make a difference to is War's and Pld's, because they have no gap closers in their skill kits.

If anything, Healers will have been given a bit of relief in this game mode. The heavy medal debuff ensures that the healer will not be the easiest (or even most desirable) target to kill, so long as they avoid picking up medals, and it would appear that players can re-spawn (thought this is still not confirmed), meaning that Healers don't have to worry about rez'ing or dying. If they get focused down and ground into sandwich meat, they can just get back up. No problem. Further, the casual version of Feast has 2 healers (8v8), so there's someone to share the load with. People who are only used to healing in Frontlines might be a little shocked by this game mode because they can no longer hide behind the skirts of 24 other teammates, but I can't imagine a seasoned WD player having any trouble in Feast.

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Originally Posted by Zhexos

Greetings,



You won't be able to use these items inside The Feast, but we're adjusting Sprint so that while inside PvP content, it will be possible to use this action without consuming any TP. However, players will still be able to use these items inside Frontline just like before...

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that interesting but what about ''morale'' stats are you going activate it someday because now the pvp gear is still bad and pointless to obtain or maybe for glamour but now i not see a advantage to have it and equip it for arena macth or pvp battleground

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Originally Posted by tehomegaking

Sounds like another change to facilitate low skill players. Micro managing TP and proper usage of sprint is an extremely important nuance of a melee. Making calculated decisions and even gambles with your TP items/skills can be very rewarding, and also just as punishing if you plan it poorly or your gamble doesn't pay off.

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Keep in mind that player re-spawns probably played into this decision. Being able to get back into the action quickly is important, especially on a map that was designed to accommodate 16 players. Depending on where the action is, you might have to book it to get back to your team (especially healers, who need to be there quickly). I think the general idea here was to keep the combat moving by removing some of the clunk, especially considering the clunk was all just window dressing in the first place.

As a dragoon, you should be pretty well aware that Tp managment is never an issue in PvP. Invigorate + Enliven = Sprint on CD, and that's IF you even need it. Spineshatter/Dragonfire Dives both close gaps in the push of a button without needing sprint. Even Evasive jump could be used as a gap closer if needed. It's hard to say how this will play out until we see it in action, but I don't think it will make much of a difference to the overall combat other than speeding things up a little.

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Originally Posted by Februs

I think you're worrying too much.

Healers have plenty of survive-ability in Wolves Den. Next to Tanks, a good healer is often the hardest target to kill. A lot of the time this leads to squishier targets (Smn's/Blm's/Nin's/Brds. etc) taking way more aggro than healers. Sprinting was not their sole advantage over melee classes either, especially considering stuns stop sprints anyway. Really, there won't be any difference between stunlocks in Feast and WD. A stun target still can't sprint, so nothing changed. Interruptions still work the same way too, so, again, nothing changed.

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Not anymore. If they can sprint without using tp then healers are kinda boned. Whats the point of relying on your lack of tp usage other than sprinting when the dps can sprint like that too and melee you to oblivion. Healer survivability just dwindled.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Not anymore. If they can sprint without using tp then healers are kinda boned. Whats the point of relying on your lack of tp usage other than sprinting when the dps can sprint like that too and melee you to oblivion. Healer survivability just dwindled.

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I have to disagree.

For melee, the point of hitting sprint is to get close enough to use your gap closer (ie: spineshatter dive etc.) and stun lock the caster. They can do this now, regardless of Tp usage, because the range of those gap closers is already quite large. The only reason a caster has to use sprint is to stay out of that range. This requires careful positioning and situational awareness more than it does the use of sprint. Further, if the healer is using sprint early enough, the melee still won't be able to catch them because the duration timer is the exact same. It's not like melee's have a longer or faster sprint time.

Another thing is that melee already could follow casters in full sprint without draining their Tp. Enliven + Invigorate or Icarus Wings = Sprint on CD. Casual PvP'ers probably don't set up their hot bars to take advantage of this, but Wolves Den players have been doing it since the beginning. A seasoned PvP'er never had any trouble chasing casters around the map while maintaining their attack. Sprint draining the Tp bar was just a formality. For those kinds of players, this is more of a QoL adjustment than it is a game changer, because it doesn't actually change anything. Not to mention the fact that casters have plenty of ways of keeping melee off of them (Binds and sleeps, for example). If the healer is letting the melee get close enough that they have to use sprint, then that's their own fault for not paying attention. All that has changed is that casters have to be more aware of their surrounding.

Just tested...

Invig:
We are assuming you hit every GCD in the 20sec sprint plus 10sec downtime, that leaves you with 340 TP which gives you a stupid 6s sprint.
If you just hit GCDs in the 20sec sprint and not in the 10sec, you are left with 390 TP so 9sec sprint.

Obviously using Enhanced Enliven changes this and using TP restoration items gives an even more crappy 2nd sprint

To say Dragoon has no TP management (or any melee for that matter) is silly.

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Originally Posted by tehomegaking

Please don't spread false info, thanks.

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That's cute, but it's not false info.

I'm not saying that every player out there knows how to manage their Tp, but the tools for Tp conservation have always been available in PvP. Enliven and Icarus Wings are enough to almost fully restore a players Tp. That's plenty of sprint time with no down time on attacking. It's no one's fault but the players if they haven't taken advantage of this. Dragoons have an even greater advantage in that they have one additional skill to replenish Tp. They can literally go from 0 to 100% in the push of 3 buttons, so they should have no issues at all if they're using every tool available to them.

Varied experiences hardly make a difference either. Frontlines is not even worth considering, since you have 24 other players to hide behind if you somehow manage to bottom out your Tp, and there is plenty of downtime in between node spawns to regen without the use of skills or items. Wolves Den is a different story, but the arena is tiny. Even a 3 second sprint in any direction is enough to get a Drg or Mnk within range of their target to use a gap closer (assuming they have Line of Sight). The only thing that is varied about PvP that is relevant to Tp consumption is the skill of the player. Now, if you're trying to say that some players are worse than others, then yes. I would agree with you, but ... so what?

Like I said before, casual or new players might find an advantage with this change because they can suddenly sprint and attack without worrying about having to manually manage their Tp, but this is just a QoL adjustment for players who have been taking full advantage of their Tp restoration moves/items since the beginning. If anything, this change helps level the playing field a little by closing the skill gap between the best of the best PvP'ers and the more casual, feather-weight, players. This is especially the case for seasoned healers. Given how fluid some of them have gotten at cheesing their opponents (Astro, I'm looking at you), it makes sense that SE did something to address the issue.

You aren't using a gap closer with a stun on healers, right? Like, to close the gap? With no DR?

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Originally Posted by Februs

They can literally go from 0 to 100% in the push of 3 buttons, so they should have no issues at all if they're using every tool available to them.

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RIP Februs' TP 2016-2016.

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Originally Posted by tehomegaking

Yeah, it's false info. You come in here spouting the basics of pvp like dragoon can use icarus wings and gap closers, like it's some sort of startling revaltion, then go on to claim something as asinine as TP management is never an issue.

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I'm starting to wonder if you are actually reading the comments or just picking out the things you don't like, because it's pretty clear that you've completely blown by the point.

Yes, I did say that TP management is "never a problem." I suppose that was a bit of a "blanket statement," or, it would be if I was referring to all of the PvP'ers in the game. I'm pretty sure I singled out seasoned Wolves Den players, specifically, who have been managing their TP without much issue since the beginning of the game mode, but fine. If we are going to apply my statement to every single PvP'er in the game, regardless of experience or skill, then yes, this is a false statement ... which was completely not the point of my post at all, so I'm not sure why you're so focused on it.

The point, again and hopefully for the last time, is that PvP'ers have always, since the dawn of Wolves Den, have had MULTIPLE ways to replenish and adequately manage their TP. How is this in any way false information? Seems pretty straight forward to me, so I'm honestly confused how you can even contest it.

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Originally Posted by tehomegaking

for me it's a minimal issue most of the time as I'm very used to altering my playstyle based on TP, but generally, the more TP the better.

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The fact that you can argue against having adequate resources to manage your TP, but bust out a statement like this is mind blowing. It would seem that you, yourself, don't have any problems managing your TP. Now, to avoid confusion, I'm not saying that TP is not an issue that needs be "managed and planned around," but can you honestly tell me, with a straight face, that it's a "problem" after openly admitting that it's a "minimal issue" for you? How often do you honestly use sprint? When you do, how often do you say, "well, shit. Now I have no Tp left to attack," and completely ignore your Tp regen skills and items? In short, how often is TP management actually a "problem" for you?

To be perfectly clear, I never said that TP management was not important. I never implied that a player should ignore their TP management (in fact, I implied the opposite by mentioning customizing hot bars to include Tp replenishment skills and items). I also never said that it wasn't an important issue in the current Wolves Den for melee players. I simply stated that the tools for managing TP are there to be used, and it is no one's fault but the players if they chose to ignore them. I may have over-simplified my statements on TP management, but I did not think I would have to fully explore when and how a player should be managing their TP. The point, is that they can if they are willing to put the effort in.

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Originally Posted by tehomegaking

Last thing we need in den is dragoons who think they have infinite TP and that their job is to merely get in range of casters to gapclose so that they can stunlock....

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This was also a bit of a misunderstanding, but I can take the blame for it because I was not clear. I used to play a lot of PvP as Pld. When I used Sprint, it was typically only using it to stay on top of a target who was sub 70% Hp so that I could apply Full Swing and Stun lock via shield bash, thereby allowing the Dps to zerg it into oblivion. I did not mean to imply that Drg's should also be stun locking. The only reason I singled out Spineshatter dive was because it essentially halts a target's sprint in it's tracks, reducing the effective time of the sprint status, and provides the Drg adequate time to replenish a bit of Tp before continuing to attack (assuming, of course, that the target is worth blowing the stun on). I wrongly assumed you would somehow be following my train of thought without actually explaining it.

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Originally Posted by tehomegaking

More off-topic stuff

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You are truly unbelievable lol. What you're basically telling me is that I wasn't clear enough in my language, despite the fact that you are taking several quotes out of context, and that somehow offended you ... Yeah, I can live with that. I could try to sort that mess out, but given your penchant for taking things way out of context and twisting the meaning, I don't want to exhaust myself by formatting a point form list full of tiny details explaining every single misunderstanding you have conjured up. What I will leave with you, though, is this:

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• Problem: noun 1. A doubtful or difficult matter requiring a solution.
• Issue: noun 3. A point in a question; an important subject of debate or litigation.

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Taken straight out of the Concise Oxford English Dictionary, in case you were wondering. I figured that, since you are so keenly interested in precision of language, you should be aware of the fact that there is a difference between a "problem" and an "issue." An issue can be a problem, of course, but not every issue is a problem. It's one of those wonderful words with nuanced meanings. If I can take one thing out of this off-topic conversation, it's that being as clear and concise as possible is much more important than I initially realized, because you never know what someone will read between the lines. I guess I can thank you for making me more aware just how far a couple of out of context or exaggerated words can take a conversation. I'll be more careful to avoid such things in the future.

After that, I'd say this is all wrapped up. Considering that you have blown the whole thing way out of proportion by fixating on one comment about Drg TP (which was really only an example that I used because it was your main) instead of actually focusing on the main point, this is as far as I'm willing to go. If you have problems with TP (and yes, I do mean "problems"), then they are your problems to address. You should be happy with the changes being made. If not, then I guess it won't make a difference to you one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by Februs

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Dude, just don't bother. We got what you meant I'm sure. I just think someone is reading too deeply into your words to "understand" what your trying to say. I say that in quotes because I doubt they really care by the attitude of their words.

How will the team ranked work, have they said? Like you pre create a roster within a team and you rank up that team. Or you just q as 4 premade and achieve an "individual" rank for team ranked still? Meaning youre more flexible with how you queue and who you queue with.