DEV REQUEST: Remove cast bars to MCH & BRD

Then technically we have no physical dps classes if all have cast bars.

I still don't get where people are seeing me complaining about Minuet and the GCD when I was originally saying for people to stop talking for me... which this is still about now that I'm looking at it. I like Minuet, it's been a many-fold blessing and I wish for it to stay. There, can we now stop talking about who's blaming what for why? It's derailing the thread something ugly, not that the thread wasn't a train wreck to begin with.

Just because we don't move doesn't mean we were asking to be faux mages either.

...I actually switched main from WHM to BRD partly because of WM. Though I can understand why it'd be frustrating for someone who's used to be pretty mobile to suddenly be forced to play a caster. Not quite sure how to describe it but I kinda enjoy playing with the cast time not being the same as the recast time like you see for the regular casters. It'd be cool for the BRD/MCH that prefer non cast if something was done but myself I'm hoping deep down it stays that way (SORRY). Or if it doesn't, that a new class was added that had that cast time permanently instead of being a stance because thanks to that I've had more fun playing XIV than I had in a long time.

You're in the minority then. Should be a blm or smn if you like that playstyle.

two words: git good

seriously though,ajust or find a different class to play.

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Originally Posted by Yoruichi4478

You're in the minority then. Should be a blm or smn if you like that playstyle.

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Used to play SMN and BLM a lot pre 3.0. I did like them but I didn't enjoy them nearly as much as I'm enjoying bard right now. Though it's similar in the way that there's a cast bar, the recast difference feels huge to me and is why I enjoy it better. Going back to playing SMN/BLM feels sluggish.

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Originally Posted by Yoruichi4478

Then technically we have no physical dps classes if all have cast bars.

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So doing physical damage doesn't make you a physical dps? o.O

I've been living a lie!

They've made every job more complex with harder req. for optimal output in Heavensward. I don't understand why BRD and MCH should have it easier than everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Yoruichi4478

You're in the minority then. Should be a blm or smn if you like that playstyle.

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Whoops wrong.
BLM and SMN have a very different feel.

Or they could look at how other gaming companies really BUFF w/o nerfing other things and their games still have balance. In TERA when archer and some other jobs got buffed so they wouldn't be lesser dps and in some cases a joke to play because of output, they didn't punish the playerbase by nerfing other things and yet the game still retained its balance up until I stopped playing to start back again with ffxiv. Why do brd and mch have to be punished for being ranged when some other gaming companies don't do that and yet their games retain balance? Just a thought.

I stated my opinion, doesn't make me wrong, so you can't say that. You stated yours doesn't make you wrong or right either, that's why they're opinions. Should look the word opinion up sometime.

Wow, you obviously need to rethink your response and realise I wasn't being serious genius.

Wow, you obviously need to rethink your response and realise I wasn't being serious genius.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

So doing physical damage doesn't make you a physical dps? o.O

I've been living a lie!

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Originally Posted by Yoruichi4478

Wow, you obviously need to rethink your response and realise I wasn't being serious genius.

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The only thing I'm serious about right now is the fact that you need to learn how to multiquote. :3

Or, y'know, even quote at all in 95% of your replies.

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Originally Posted by Yoruichi4478

I stated my opinion, doesn't make me wrong, so you can't say that. You stated yours doesn't make you wrong or right either, that's why they're opinions. Should look the word opinion up sometime.

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I'm sorry if you thought I was saying your opinion was wrong. D: I appreciate your suggestion to make my game time more enjoyable though! It's just I wanted to state my opinion about how I feel the two are different to justify why I didn't consider playing BLM or SMN.

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Originally Posted by Yoruichi4478

Or they could look at how other gaming companies really BUFF w/o nerfing other things and their games still have balance. In TERA when archer and some other jobs got buffed so they wouldn't be lesser dps and in some cases a joke to play because of output, they didn't punish the playerbase by nerfing other things and yet the game still retained its balance up until I stopped playing to start back again with ffxiv. Why do brd and mch have to be punished for being ranged when some other gaming companies don't do that and yet their games retain balance? Just a thought.

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Gotta agree on the damage output though. Bard doesn't feel too far off but what I've experience playing MCH so far (didn't max yet so my thoughts on it could be off) but I'm feeling pretty underwelmed about it. Not sure why they're lower though. Assuming either they're needing a buff or it was intended that way since they still have the option to turn off the stance if you need to attack on the move (plus the buffs they can provide to the party similar to the WHM/SCH vs AST thing). Or a mix of all that. Ooor maybe it actually is WM/GB but I'm too biaised to see it since I'm drooling all over the playstyle XP

You don't even notice the cast times on machinist for the most part since you skip them entirely if you proc. Poor bards though~

TERA archer charging skills for potency depending on how long you hold it down or until it maxed out and still being able to move while doing so vs FFXIV bard with a caster bar that interrupts and no actual charging bar just a constant reminder of what they've done to the job.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

In a interview a while back Yoshi-p discussed the reason behind the cast bar was to prevent BRD and MCH from having both High Mobility and High Damage at the same time. It was the exchange for higher damage being MCH and BRD mobility but of course people are not happy about it for different reasons but mostly for losing their high mobility while some were just mad they can't have both high mobility and high damage.

Players have ask for higher damage for BRD but they never ask the question "What will be the price for that higher damage?"

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You know, IMO I think SE sent a pretty clear message with BRD/MCH: Ranged mobile DPS must be significantly lower than a ranged "turret" (or semi-turret). Define significantly? At least 15% lower (by the numbers). At least. If SE takes away WM, bards are gonna get their DPS kicked in the teeth. Same for GB and MCH. That is why WM/GB is here to stay. Do I agree with it? Not particularly, but I'm not the one that makes those decisions.

--Erim Nelhah

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Originally Posted by Dawnshade

Gotta agree on the damage output though. Bard doesn't feel too far off but what I've experience playing MCH so far (didn't max yet so my thoughts on it could be off) but I'm feeling pretty underwelmed about it. Not sure why it's lower though. Assuming either they're needing a buff or it was intended that way since they still have the option to turn off the stance if you need to attack on the move (plus the buffs they can provide to the party similar to the WHM/SCH vs AST thing). Or a mix of all that. Ooor maybe it actually is WM/GB but I'm too biaised to see it since I'm drooling all over the playstyle XP

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To be fair I also didn't feel the power of MCH till I hit around fifty four.. hitting sixty and I was able to feel a nice "oomph".

I respond as I go along a thread, I don't have the time to make notes and then make one post and don't go insulting ppl either. I know how to quote ppl I just didn't hit it with other things going on I didn't realise it doesn't make me stupid or inept, just distracted. And this is derailing the thread so keep focused on the OP plz.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

The only thing I'm serious about right now is the fact that you need to learn how to multiquote. :3

Or, y'know, even quote at all in 95% of your replies.

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

To be fair I also didn't feel the power of MCH till I hit around fifty four.. hitting sixty and I was able to feel a nice "oomph".

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Oh good to know! I'm still in the 4x levels and I keep on asking myself "Am I playing wrong or is the damage just that bad?" and was starting to lose hope a little 'cause I do enjoy the skill set but seeing how little damage I'm doing is disheartening.

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Originally Posted by Dawnshade

Oh good to know! I'm still in the 4x levels and I keep on asking myself "Am I playing wrong or is the damage just that bad?" and was starting to lose hope a little 'cause I do enjoy the skill set but seeing how little damage I'm doing is disheartening.

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Wildfire + All your available buffs and oGCD attacks is so satisfying it's ridiculous. Mmm yes

Understandably Bard isn't the powerhouse people seem to want to think it is. It can do respectable damage but if you want a ranged DD that can really bring the hurt then you need Black Mage. Bard is about the songs. Everyone has a move that can recover or grant MP or TP, but Bard can do it for longer and for anyone within range. Can even impose a magic resistance debuff on enemies. Only Machinist can equal such utility but, like Bard, they trade for it in reduced damage output. Our stances make up for this carrying the balance of reduced mobility and no auto attacks. Like a Black Mage. We're still not as potent as a Black Mage but that's because we can still use our party buffs and debuffs with no reduction in their efficacy. I honestly don't know what people were really expecting out of Minuet aside from the rather obvious 'cake' analogy.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Understandably Bard isn't the powerhouse people seem to want to think it is. It can do respectable damage but if you want a ranged DD that can really bring the hurt then you need Black Mage. Bard is about the songs. Everyone has a move that can recover or grant MP or TP, but Bard can do it for longer and for anyone within range. Can even impose a magic resistance debuff on enemies. Only Machinist can equal such utility but, like Bard, they trade for it in reduced damage output. Our stances make up for this carrying the balance of reduced mobility and no auto attacks. Like a Black Mage. We're still not as potent as a Black Mage but that's because we can still use our party buffs and debuffs with no reduction in their efficacy. I honestly don't know what people were really expecting out of Minuet aside from the rather obvious 'cake' analogy.

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I was expecting damage on par with WAR!

Edit: This time I'm kidding, don't rip my head off D:

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Originally Posted by Yoruichi4478

TERA archer charging skills for potency depending on how long you hold it down or until it maxed out and still being able to move while doing so vs FFXIV bard with a caster bar that interrupts and no actual charging bar just a constant reminder of what they've done to the job.

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TERA archers are also slowed by like 60% when charging.

Bard was one of the jobs I could play to "unwind" as a DPS at 50 back before HW. Now it's a chore to just get it to 60 again, and even solo (maybe ESPECIALLY solo) I find that WM hampers my enjoyment significantly.

"Oh but if you like it just turn it off", yes and lose a lot of damage potential and not to mention lock myself out of new abilities that work only with WM active. No, thanks. I just want Bard back. I did not sign up to be a Bow Wizard. I have a Black Mage for that and, lo and behold, I CAN move as a BLM because it was inherent to the way the class played from Level 1, not something that was forced upon me hundreds of hours later.

I wish they'd branch the archer class, like an arcanist can become a summoner or a scholar. Archer could choose to become the supportive Bard that goes toodelitoot with the harp, or become a full dps bowsman like this --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk
That would make me pick up the bow again. As it is now, I'm so disappointed with the class that I don't want to play it any more.

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Originally Posted by Anyan

I wish they'd branch the archer class, like an arcanist can become a summoner or a scholar. Archer could choose to become the supportive Bard that goes toodelitoot with the harp, or become a full dps bowsman like this --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk
That would make me pick up the bow again. As it is now, I'm so disappointed with the class that I don't want to play it any more.

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They've outright said no to another branching class because they dislike how Arcanist/Summoner/Scholar turned out.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

They've outright said no to another branching class because they dislike how Arcanist/Summoner/Scholar turned out.

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It's just a wish. I also think it's an awesome idea. :P

Easy answer to this post, don't use WM/GB. There...done.....

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Originally Posted by Averax

At least you're not a black mage who might as well be half buried.

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A job designed around being a turret becoming even more of a turret (though I could argue BLM would have gotten enough with Laylines and that Enochian was wasted on them since it's a mechanic you could have built an entire new job around) makes sense. A mobile, instant-attack oriented job becoming a turret warrants a "what the hell were they thinking?" type of reaction. Specially taking into account how WM was implemented.

This said, I support the OP in that cast times are terrible on BRD. MCH can sort of get away with it because of how Gauss Barrel interacts with shot procs, and I think it may be enough to help the job stand on its own. BRD should have gotten something else to create diversity in playstyle. Sadly, I don't see it going away until the next expansion kicks in, if we're lucky. It's a big change that would require a redesign of how BRD plays in HW zones. Then again, they did a revamp on WAR's tank model from 2.0 to 2.1, so there is some hope there.

I think Gauss Barrel makes more sense for its job than Wanderer's Minuet does for bards, but it's also a definite fact that I enjoyed MCH more before Gauss Barrel became a thing at 52.

While it's true that the changes that these stances got in recent patches has made the jobs competitive again DPS-wise, I think it's just an odd way of playing ranged jobs. They give you all this mobility to set you apart from other jobs and then give you a shiny new ability that takes it all away - it's just odd, regardless of how it performs.

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Understandably Bard isn't the powerhouse people seem to want to think it is.

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Mhm. Though, to be quite fair, Minuet charge times are about half of that of the magic casters cast times to boot. It does makes sense why WM doesn't have high potential damage output in that regard too.

However, I do want to point out that Foe's Requiem and Hypercharge doesn't reduce the player's damage at all (only Ballad, Paeon, and Promotion have damage penalties), unless, that isn't what you're implying; if so, whoops, sorry.

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Originally Posted by seekified

They give you all this mobility to set you apart from other jobs and then give you a shiny new ability that takes it all away - it's just odd, regardless of how it performs.

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Actually, not all of it. You still have a leeway to move around as the charge times are less than the GCD. Plus, you can even turn it off if you need to move for an extended period of time so you can still run-'n-gun.

My BRD isn't quite there yet but I'm dreading WM but like any other I will try to alter my play style but I did choose BRD cause it's fun and mobile without those two things I might as well head back to slow fat and chunky BLM (no offense BLM mains I do love the class) or the arthritis DRG is causing me lol

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Originally Posted by seekified

I think Gauss Barrel makes more sense for its job than Wanderer's Minuet does for bards, but it's also a definite fact that I enjoyed MCH more before Gauss Barrel became a thing at 52.

While it's true that the changes that these stances got in recent patches has made the jobs competitive again DPS-wise, I think it's just an odd way of playing ranged jobs. They give you all this mobility to set you apart from other jobs and then give you a shiny new ability that takes it all away - it's just odd, regardless of how it performs.

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If being able to jump in place while DPSing is what sets a job apart, it doesn't have a particularly solid identity. Bard's defined by Ballad and Requiem more than anything.

Look. I also seriously hate the castbars, but I'm over it. I got used to it and it's pretty fun. The only thing I hate about the mch is the rng. At times you get the procs, but other times you don't and you're stuck with the cooldowns... That's just the worst design ever. The lack of auto-attack also hurts. You pretty much do more damage without GB if you have a high crit, since auto attacks can crit to

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Originally Posted by Daralii

If being able to jump in place while DPSing is what sets a job apart, it doesn't have a particularly solid identity. Bard's defined by Ballad and Requiem more than anything.

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Yeah, perhaps "set it apart" wasn't the best way to say it - I mean it more in the sense that as a ranged job, being able to attack on the go seems natural because otherwise the only thing setting you apart from casters are your animations, which I think is what the chief complaint has been for GB/WM (along with the fact that it suddenly changes how the jobs play). The support stuff is fantastic for both jobs and makes a lot of sense for their roles and I agree that it's their signature abilities.

Something that will be interesting to see DPS-wise is just how powerful BRD and MCH will become since a 1.3x modifier on all outgoing damage will become huge as our gear improves. Bards were in a very good place towards the end of 2.x and I imagine we'll look at these jobs quite differently in six months, much like DRG was very looked down upon early on but after the changes in 2.4 became a lot more capable.

MCH has less isues with GB because they have procs and way to force procs to be more mobile , we bards no options outside 2 random procs (bloodletter and Straight shot! proc that have both their own issues now)

anyway like i said , 2.0 > 3.0 we are in the same spot dpswise but now we arent that mobile , and thats counting a 30% boost from the stance

how its possible that we gained 30% dmg and we are still doing the same dps compared to others?

others gained 30% too u will think , it only makes sense ,but what other jobs gave to get that 30% boost?

it feels like all the work was put into SMN then others and at the end BRD (copy paste from MCH) , just look at the animations new mechanics and QOL changes....we got the short end of the stick in HW :(

p.d i still "enjoy" it , and casting was a pain at the begging , but once u get over it meh....but still doesnt feel "fair". (if u played shaman in wow u know what i mean)

180 wep bard = 63 Weapon Damage
180 wep nin-mnk-drg = 70 Weapon Damage.
+7 WD

190 wep bard = 65 Weapon Damage
190 wep nin-mnk-drg = 72 Weapon Damage.
+7 WD

200 wep bard = 67 Weapon Damage
200 wep nin-mnk-drg = 74 Weapon Damage.
+7 WD

210 wep bard = 68 Weapon Damage
210 wep nin-mnk-drg = 76 Weapon Damage.
+8 WD

That is the problem, nor potency, nor skills. Our weapon damage is less than others
dps and the difference is increased final wep stage.

Too afraid to stay the +7 WD difference?