"Please Kick Me..." - Just Take Your Penalty

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

And so to prove a point, you let the person sit rather than vote kick him. The result? The party had to disband anyway after wasting 10 more minutes in which time a replacement would likely have joined and you would have finished the dungeon.

I understand the frustration around vote kick. What I don't understand is how people are ready to screw themselves over to prove a point. Just kick them and get on with it.

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The party would have flunked anyway because no one really queues for alex floors in progress (since they typically tend to be traps and well...the instance itself has no trash mobs to warrant inprogress) It was a matter of letting the healer go without any repercussion or having the entire party stay the extra time. Either case, what the healer wanted to do was douchebaggery, and really should not be encouraged, let alone allowed. A collective player report would often go far too, since this is considered player harassment.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

The party would have flunked anyway because no one really queues for alex floors in progress (since they typically tend to be traps and well...the instance itself has no trash mobs to warrant inprogress) It was a matter of letting the healer go without any repercussion or having the entire party stay the extra time. Either case, what the healer wanted to do was douchebaggery, and really should not be encouraged, let alone allowed. A collective player report would often go far too, since this is considered player harassment.

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So, you still wasted 10 minutes dealing with it. You could have disbanded, etc. Seems people are punishing themselves over principle-rage.

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Originally Posted by Waeksyn

So, you still wasted 10 minutes dealing with it. You could have disbanded, etc. Seems people are punishing themselves over principle-rage.

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Principle rage or not, they would've been screwed over either way through re-queuing. Then you have the extremely off chance that no one in the party has a vote kick allowance because get this sort of thing all the time. I'm not going to judge on whether or not it's right for them to be that vindictive toward people like that healer, but I remain on the fact that the healer is, objectively, an unsavory player that should have
some repercussions for what he's doing (whether it be at the hands of the player or GM, though preferably the GM so it's more lasting to make an actual point that this is a problem with how it's set up).

Granted, it can be the other way too. I could be in a party with a group of people who are purposely trolling their run (and they've made that clear through chat logs). They won't vote abandon and certainly they won't kick. So the only choice I'd have is to leave, and then they'd still skip out on the penalty because they're not the first person leaving the instance. Regardless of what I did, my circumstances were at the mercy of an individual, or a group of them. Even if they had vote kicked me (and assuming there was a queue penalty for vote kicking), at that point it's honestly no different than leaving and taking the penalty anyway.) Both are considered harassment and a report would go through either way.

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Originally Posted by Dererk

So he said just kick me we said no. And I said you will either leave take the penalty or stay and do your role. Or I will report you for harassment he said he'd do the same was fine with me since I did nothing wrong he started a kick on the BLM unfortunately we realized to late it was the BLM thinking it was the WHM. The WHM did it so they could skip the penalty fortunately he couldn't leave because we were in combat ha ha ha. Then a brd joined and since he already used his vote kick he just forced a dc so wed be forced to kick him.

Well I held on to my end and reported the guy for this abuse.

Thank you for the quick and timely reply GM Eresgha.

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Poor "not so bright person"

too bad he didn't know that once the original makeup was changed he could leave at any point without penalty

Is that retarception?

So in XI, most bad players would develop reputations of ill party manners because you would always see that player or hear about those players on your particular server (that and they would always have trouble finding help). The same notoriety is difficult to pinpoint in XIV because we play with multiple server groups.

I don't think it's a bad thing for reputation to carry with the players decisions. There's definitely a way to treat people IRL and over the net, regardless of your anonymity. But of course that's never going to happen in this game; people too afraid that singling threatening players out is bad for the community at large. Any duty finder instance removes any association with the character's FC as well (For silly reasons....because you can always take that person's name, run a search, and find ALL of their information on lodestone anyway....)

But it would be nice to have something as far as a reputation system is concerned....Like an icon that's place above a person's name or something when they leave or are kicked a party for harassment or receive penalty after so many attempts... They give a huge and harsh penalty for people who don't accept the duties that they sign up for, then what is the difference for people who don't complete their duties and leave midway?

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Originally Posted by RygaenYuui

But it would be nice to have something as far as a reputation system is concerned....Like an icon that's place above a person's name or something when they leave or are kicked a party for harassment or receive penalty after so many attempts... They give a huge and harsh penalty for people who don't accept the duties that they sign up for, then what is the difference for people who don't complete their duties and leave midway?

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cool, ill make 7 alt chars then to downvote a person 8 times total /sarcasm

and to answer your question: 30 minutes DF not working + waittime for next entry (yes, not only tanks/heals do that)

When you ask for a vote dismiss, you're negatively impacting the rest of the party. If you understand that and do it anyway, possibly even retaliating if they don't, you are the one holding up the party. The party is not at fault.

Sad that so many of these responses amount to "just let them abuse the system." Being against it isn't "rage," it's a perfectly understandable form of irritation. All OP is asking for, that I can see, is for people to change their attitude about using vote dismiss to abuse the system, which really isn't too much to ask.

If anything, I think the new stock response should just be "sorry, mine's on cooldown." They have no way of verifying it either way, and if they insist on being a problem because of it, well, that's grounds for a report.

I'm not really for either side, only because there is always another side to each story. But not too long ago I had to deal with this issue, to the point the individual wanting kicked MPK'd us, and then refused to heal us or even move. Our healer had said something in party chat about "Going fast so we could beat the reset..." it was 10pm EST and a Thursday night.... what reset?! Daily reset was quite a few hours away, and weekly reset? Quite a few more days away as well @.@

Well it was Keeper of the Lake, and you can only go so far before you physically are blocked by bridges up till you beat certain mobs till you can continue. But pulling all before you can actually move on further wasn't enough, because after the first bridge falls and you pull that really big group, the healer stops healing us, runs away, we die, then he pulls a group and kills us again w/o healing, then asks to be kicked. Well at first I completely out right refuse and call a GM. Finally after 10mins have passed and I'm waiting for a response, the DPS get fed up waiting and vote dismiss him w/o me.

The GM finally contacts me and the first thing he asks me is if I used the tools at my disposal to get rid of said individual with the "Vote Dismiss" option. You very well may need to utilize it whether you personally want to or not, before a GM may be able to take action against said individual. It is there for a reason and people holding up the run by wanting a vote kick is a form of Harassment which is clearly an option under the Vote Dismiss options.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

For reference, this is the stubborn part.

You aren't accomplishing anything at this point in the hypothetical imo. I've seen all this stuff happen, and there's no revelatory experience that emerges from it. No one decides they were being a dick and to be cooperative. The individual gets stuck in the dungeon for a while.

The rest of the group has to wait even longer than usual for a replacement. At a practical level that's all that happens. Just because someone's wrong doesn't make the other party right.

Suggesting a penalty to kick is something. But just refusing to kick someone at this point serves no purpose except to create a heightened sense of righteous indignation. It's just stubborn.

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This guy he gets it :D!

I've asked to be removed from a party before in such a manner. "Hey sorry to ask but can you guys vote kick me, FC mate asked for help with a trial and they need me." (It's all on how you word it.)

If they don't comply i make the judgement: (How long will the rest of this take vs penalty?)

If longer than penalty well I'm eatting it lol. Please also note that by having them "take the penalty" they aren't really penalized someone could easily go Q for pvp as pvp and pve penalties are quite different.

Trying to hold me hostage will just make me lazy. It's like training a pet, positive reinforcement trumps negative reinforcement.

So you're asking us to treat you like a dog?

Some people actually think they are being held hostage when the door is right there, lol!

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

Also, remember how well the penalty for withdrawing from a duty works lol. This community asks for penalties to try to get others to join and stay through a whole duty with them. The penalties don't work (in the case of the withdrawal penalty, people were never leaving to troll others, they were leaving because of long queues and doing RL stuff, which no penalty can resolve). Also, another tact would be to reward players for staying rather than penalize them for leaving, which the game already does with new player bonuses; maybe we should ask for higher bonuses rather than higher penalties? Just a thought.

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Fishing for in progress was a thing, and was very annoying.

Hm, I honestly think it's just a sign that we, as a community, just need to grow and be more mature about the way we approach things. I said in another thread that I typically don't abandon a party unless they're rude; in the cases that I have, which are few and far between, I didn't ask to be kicked. I wished them a good day and just left, and took my penalty. Penalties aren't meant to be seen as just avoidable inconveniences. They're minor punishments for going against a code and being disruptive.

As others have reported, I've often seen players simply stand around and do nothing rather than leaving, keeping an entire party from progressing. This is a very bad mindset. You are allowed to do literally anything and everything else in the game except reenter an instance during your penalty time. But rather than accept a minor penalty, these players would just hold an entire party hostage, oftentimes for no other reason than "I don't want to run this dungeon". This is not behavior that we should entertain in a community.



EDIT: You know what else we shouldn't entertain? 1000 character limits. >_>

I'll say it here and now; this is exact same thing people rallied against when queue withdraw penalties became a thing. I heard every excuse against it:

"I'll lose my materials from crafting!"
"I had to do an errand!"
"I needed to get food!"
"I had to go to the bathroom!"
"I was doing something else in game!"

Everyone comes up with some excuse to avoid taking responsibility and wasting everyone's time. If something else outside of the DF requires that much attention from you, then just go and deal with that and don't expect a free pass.

I agree there is times where the system is abused to get booted to avoid timers. However, I do know of times where it is nessisary for a said player who is running to raid and the said group is having problems.

To elabirate, this happened just a week ago to a raid mate. He ran his expert and got 3 new people in the run. They were in there for over an hour wiping to the final boss. A run that should of taken him only 30 minutes took twice as long than it should of. He tried to vote abandon but they wouldn't say yes. He also tried to ask them boot him. Again no. He couldn't just leave or we wouldn't of been able to raid. We would of needed to get someone else.

What is one to do in one of those groups? You are stuck with them. Our raid mate stuck it out and we got an hour worth of raid in but it sucks if you need to leave, but can't because the other three are practically holding you hostage.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

So you're asking us to treat you like a dog?

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Might as well. People treat their dogs better than players in this game

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Originally Posted by Kaela

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So they physically restrained him from leaving? He couldn't leave on his own accord because he feared that dreaded 30 minute time out that much? He wanted an easy way out that badly, despite wasting over 30 minutes of his own time wiping to the last boss?

Here's another thing I want people to answer. What do you do when someone asks to be kicked, but everyone says "Sorry, we used our vote kicks on this other group in a previous run." Is that person still being "held hostage?"

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

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you totally missed the point there - he couldnt leave and take the 30 min because he was already late (due to a dungeon taking 60 min instead of 20-30) and did not want to make his team (7 other people he knows) wait another 30 minutes because 3 other people were too stupid to kill a easy boss after multiple tries.
I actually draw my hat before that person, because of the speed they most likely were going i'd probably been gone after the first 5 min and just ate the penalty.

and to your question - idk and idc, if someone asks he gets the boot - less drama comes from that then refusing

Ok, but that still doesn't answer my other question of when everyone already used their votes beforehand.

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Originally Posted by Vesuvias

How about we just implement a system where your entry regardless of clear counts for your roulette that way it forces people to stay for the full run, or get no credit.

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Would they lose their roulette for day if group runs out timer without winning?

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Originally Posted by Magistrella

you totally missed the point there - he couldnt leave and take the 30 min because he was already late (due to a dungeon taking 60 min instead of 20-30) and did not want to make his team (7 other people he knows) wait another 30 minutes because 3 other people were too stupid to kill a easy boss after multiple tries.

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Maybe he learned his lesson to not queue up for something so close to another raid.

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Originally Posted by Cakekizy

Would they lose their roulette for day if group runs out timer without winning?

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In my suggestion, where you forever get the same dungeon for Roulette until you clear, you just try again the same day and probably get another group. Get your daily bonus done.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Ok, but that still doesn't answer my other question of when everyone already used their votes beforehand.

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They'd then proceed to fake dc thinking that atleast someone actually can/will initiate vote kick

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Originally Posted by Magistrella

you totally missed the point there - he couldnt leave and take the 30 min because he was already late (due to a dungeon taking 60 min instead of 20-30) and did not want to make his team (7 other people he knows) wait another 30 minutes because 3 other people were too stupid to kill a easy boss after multiple tries.
I actually draw my hat before that person, because of the speed they most likely were going i'd probably been gone after the first 5 min and just ate the penalty.

and to your question - idk and idc, if someone asks he gets the boot - less drama comes from that then refusing

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That's his own fault, you shouldn't queue if you don't have time to take the full timer for the dungeon.

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Originally Posted by myahele

They'd then proceed to fake dc thinking that atleast someone actually can/will initiate vote kick

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Originally Posted by myahele

Might as well. People treat their dogs better than players in this game

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Yea you are so much better then the rest...

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Originally Posted by Kaela

I agree there is times where the system is abused to get booted to avoid timers. However, I do know of times where it is nessisary for a said player who is running to raid and the said group is having problems.

To elabirate, this happened just a week ago to a raid mate. He ran his expert and got 3 new people in the run. They were in there for over an hour wiping to the final boss. A run that should of taken him only 30 minutes took twice as long than it should of. He tried to vote abandon but they wouldn't say yes. He also tried to ask them boot him. Again no. He couldn't just leave or we wouldn't of been able to raid. We would of needed to get someone else.

What is one to do in one of those groups? You are stuck with them. Our raid mate stuck it out and we got an hour worth of raid in but it sucks if you need to leave, but can't because the other three are practically holding you hostage.

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See this situation is one of those ones that makes me think all this stuff about "Oh, just leave and eat the penalty cause its rude to ask for a kick" is kind of something that could be flipped to the other viewpoint...

This guy had a raid coming up. Expert usually takes 20-30 minutes instead it ended up taking over and hour? The run wasn't going well...they wiped to the final boss not once or twice but reported multiple times. Obviously this guy TRIED to make it work. In the end he just ran out of time and had people waiting for him. This kind of mistake can happen to anyone. He tries to vote abandon to see if the others agree. They don't, okay, that's fine. Then he asked, I am assuming politely, to be kicked from party due to his circumstances.

Yet no one was nice enough to just do it as a favor, a sign of compassion, goodwill, or just plain sympathy? That blows my mind.

It's like most people agree that it's rude to ask for a kick because you should just be accepting and open to help your fellow players. Yet reverse it and people are not willing to be accepting, open, sympathize with, and help a fellow player out by leaving them with no penalty.

I mean I guess I just don't understand. If the person is argumentative and a jerk okay, but if someone who was just a normal obviously kind player that wanted to leave with no penalty for a good reason like raid time or having to go help a friend on some duty...it's like, no one shows any compassion. But many people expect compassion when they are failing multiple times on a boss etc.

Not saying everyone should get vote kicks or whatever...just to me it seems some people are a bit too rigid about it.

As for the everyone has their vote kick on cool down thing....I think the % chance of that happening is very very very low. If it somehow does well then something else would have to be done. Like vote abandon or the person who wants to leave just leaves and eat penalty since it was their own mistake to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Assirra

Yea you are so much better then the rest...

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Pot calling the kettle black? Sorry if I'm sick of people fake DCing to get out of a dungeon they don't like. Take the penalty, I know I do. 30m is nothing.

I think if someone wants to leave, they should just leave. I will never kick someone when they ask...if they need to go, they can tolerate being out of the DF for 30 minutes.

Whenever I have to go, I just drop and take the penalty after apologizing to my group.

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Originally Posted by Miste

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If it was 30~ minutes before raid, I personally wouldn't even queue up for anything anyway because its a liability to hold up your raid members, all things considered. Especially if you get 3 new people for an expert dungeon that it should've been a red lgiht for the run taking longer than usual. Could've bailed immediately that you have other matters to attend to and probably won't have time guiding three new people and still make raid time if it was 30 minutes to raid (and if it was less, then again, I'd have to question why you're even doing duty finder roulette that close to raid time).

Unless your raid was for Alexander savage, then all of that is out of the window because savage doesn't use duty finder...

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Originally Posted by Cakekizy

That's his own fault, you shouldn't queue if you don't have time to take the full timer for the dungeon.

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Then im supposed to not play most of the time? Because i am NOT sitting 90 minutes straight in front of the game.

I don't know about you, but i have something called a life - when i plan a dungeon i plan 45 minutes. Because even with bad players that's how long it should take. And i will not be told by some self righteous <insertwordofchoicehere> that can sit in front of the game the whole day to "Make space 1 1/2 hours of my time" for something that can be done in 20-25 minutes

Sorry, just shows how much off a jerk attitude comes out no matter on what side of the table you stand

If you can't commit some time to this game, then maybe you shouldn't be signing up for duties that you know that could pop at any minute. We already went through this song and dance when withdraw penalties were introduced and every crafter acted like crafting while in queue was punishing them. If you're waiting that long for a duty to pop, then perhaps you need to grab a few friends to help you out.

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Originally Posted by Magistrella

Then im supposed to not play most of the time? Because i am NOT sitting 90 minutes straight in front of the game.

I don't know about you, but i have something called a life - when i plan a dungeon i plan 45 minutes. Because even with bad players that's how long it should take. And i will not be told by some self righteous <insertwordofchoicehere> that can sit in front of the game the whole day to "Make space 1 1/2 hours of my time" for something that can be done in 20-25 minutes

Sorry, just shows how much off a jerk attitude comes out no matter on what side of the table you stand

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If you can't commit time for duty, there are always hunts and grinding random mobs.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

If it was 30~ minutes before raid, I personally wouldn't even queue up for anything anyway because its a liability to hold up your raid members, all things considered. Especially if you get 3 new people for an expert dungeon that it should've been a red lgiht for the run taking longer than usual. Could've bailed immediately that you have other matters to attend to and probably won't have time guiding three new people and still make raid time if it was 30 minutes to raid (and if it was less, then again, I'd have to question why you're even doing duty finder roulette that close to raid time).

Unless your raid was for Alexander savage, then all of that is out of the window because savage doesn't use duty finder...

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Oh I am not saying it wasn't his own fault really. Mistakes happen to the best of us though, and a little kindness and compassion goes a long way especially since he stuck it out knowing the members were new and with so many wipes until he was out of time, does that sound like a mean player to you? A lot of people would have given up far sooner.

Also bailing immediately on seeing the new member notice....is another thing a lot of people get angry with because they want kindness and compassion from fellow players to help them complete it. So it's kind of like pick your poison.

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Originally Posted by Miste

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Bailing because don't want to put up with new players is one thing, bailing because you don't have time to put up with new players is anotehr thing. But in the end, it still comes to time management. You're really splitting hairs if you're trying to squeeze in a DF roulette 30 minutes before a scheduled raid. As a pseudo-raid leader, this is one of my pet peeves if I see somneone queuing up for a roulette when its 30> minutes before our meet up time, and I full well expect them to bail if it's going to take longer than that and the other 6 members and I are waiting for them since it's our savage progression night.

I feel sooner or later there is going to be a topic about people complaining about those who chose to take the 30 minute penalty rather than staying with the group.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Oh I am not saying it wasn't his own fault really. Mistakes happen to the best of us though, and a little kindness and compassion goes a long way especially since he stuck it out knowing the members were new and with so many wipes until he was out of time, does that sound like a mean player to you? A lot of people would have given up far sooner.

Also bailing immediately on seeing the new member notice....is another thing a lot of people get angry with because they want kindness and compassion from fellow players to help them complete it. So it's kind of like pick your poison.

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I guess my first red flag is that this player queued up for a dungeon so close to raid time assuming that they would get a quick clear. If you don't have time to stay for the entire dungeon countdown then don't queue imo.

That being said if the party doesn't want to disband (vote abandon) and they don't want to vote kick they are well within their rights to refuse; SE allotted the party x amount of time for the group to clear the content. Even if some players feel that it should/could be done faster the simple fact is that the entire party has until the timer ticks down. No one is preventing anyone from leaving on their own accord.

As mentioned, if you're going to queue for a duty finder group, go in with the expectation that it could take the entire dungeon timer depending on the party circumstances.

No one is saying that players should never ever show kindness/compassion in the odd scenario (this is personal choice) but don't get angry/retaliate at the party if they choose not to initiate a vote kick if asked (or if trying to force a kick via d/c); they are well within their rights to refuse.

In this thread: "Noh, u haz to play with meh because da roolz say so. If you don't I'm telling daddy!"

Honestly, if the group I get when it isn't in roulette is incompetent, I'll either ask for a vote kick or if it's really bad, I'll eat the penalty. I've had my fill of healers causing wipes by bein dps mad.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

In this thread: "Noh, u haz to play with meh because da roolz say so. If you don't I'm telling daddy!"

Honestly, if the group I get when it isn't in roulette is incompetent, I'll either ask for a vote kick or if it's really bad, I'll eat the penalty. I've had my fill of healers causing wipes by bein dps mad.

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These threads are getting so silly when people try to twist who is the actual victim and who is the offender.

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Originally Posted by Syrehn

I guess my first red flag is that this player queued up for a dungeon so close to raid time assuming that they would get a quick clear. If you don't have time to stay for the entire dungeon countdown then don't queue imo.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

But in the end, it still comes to time management. You're really splitting hairs if you're trying to squeeze in a DF roulette 30 minutes before a scheduled raid.

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Again I didn't say it wasn't his own fault there. But I'll say this again. People make mistakes. Your time management and time judgement skills might be spot on, but that doesn't mean all people have that skill mastered. Some might misjudge or not think about the run not going right. Or they might just plain not realize they don't have much time left. It is their own mistake but it's just a game, why bother being so rigid about things. If I was in that group I would have attempted to remove him just to be nice since he stuck with me so long even though I was new and likely screwing the dungeon mechanics up.

The party has the right to refuse yes, but I am trying to impart that maybe we should all think a bit before saying an automatic no. Depends on the case though of course, like if a player just doesn't want to do that dungeon and that's the only reason then yeah they can try to ask for a kick but they should just leave and take penalty.

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Originally Posted by Miste

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In all fairness if there were appropriate penalties included with the vote kick feature, such as a deserter timer for example, then it would act as a deterrent for players who abuse the system when not wanting to do specific dungeons and encourage better time management for players queueing with upcoming obligations.

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Originally Posted by Syrehn

In all fairness if there were appropriate penalties included with the vote kick feature, such as a deserter timer for example, then it would act as a deterrent for players who abuse the system when not wanting to do specific dungeons and encourage better time management for players queueing with upcoming obligations.

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That doesn't seem like a bad idea somewhat but...I just can't bring myself to agree with it. It goes back to the being too rigid when it is just an online game meant for fun.

Compounding penalties on top of penalties and more penalties...just in my opinion is not the best way to deal with those problems and it's likely better off just staying how it is now. It would hurt the innocent players who may get vote kicked unjustly/for no reason/trolling and also genuine disconnects from the game only to come back and you are kicked and have a penalty and it wasn't even anything you did wrong.

Time for other stuff now though! Thanks for the good discussion :)

Oh and btw I totally agree with your booty signature, it's so sad we all lost our butts in the calamity :/