Something need to be done about BAD DPS.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Tbh the first step to get better on PS4 is to get a PC. Then getting a parser.

Ok, sorry, but I had to say it. I know, I am a d**k.

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I don't want to get into a console vs PC argument (You lose nothing whatsoever playing on console), but all I'll say is that I perform pretty damn well if the numbers I get from my friends are accurate. I also know plenty of other people who would prove that sentiment so remarkably wrong. So I strongly disagree :)

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

That is not irrational, is already happening in dungeons, where a DPS who is not supposedly doing enough good according ot others is simply kicked out, when in fact as it has been said above, was doing more then the others, especialyl the tank that took all the aoes in the face expecting the Heals to heal him and when heal ran out of mana because well there is only so much you can do complained he died for ...lack of heals....so saying is irrational is wrong, if there is a parser it would be used and abused just about like the kick option is used and abused.

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My wife and I had this happen in fractal. In the last fight the tank kept dragging the boss onto us to "help kill the adds" when the DRG and I were clearing the alarums fast. Doing so caused us to eat more damage and paralysis debuffs, causing the healer to go OOM and that combined with his inability to use a single defensive cooldown caused us to wipe.

His solution? Kick the healer obviously. So yeah, abuse is already there.

A parser on the dummy would be great, a parser in the game is a double edged sword. On one hand you could see when someone was just auto-attacking. On the other you could have a situation where the DF group's expectations are overdone for the content.

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Originally Posted by Neuflune

I play in a Japanese data center and when I get in a J party, it's normal for people to say "初見です！" if they are new, and the party asks if they need any help with the mechanics, stuff like that.

But when I get in an E party... there is a notice that someone is new and no one says anything. In one party, a dragoon obviously messed up every single thing. Another E player and I, when we saw the dragoon was E, literally asked "are you new? do you need pointers?". The other E player (not the dragoon), then proceeded to detail the mechanics of the fight. It was just a straight up instruction, no sarcasm or anything. The dragoon didn't reply once, didn't follow the instructions, and caused another wipe. We asked again if he needed anything explained... and then this is where it gets funny. Yet another E player said "this is why I hate E parties you're a bunch of elitists".

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I'm starting to wonder if there isn't a problem of newer players not looking at the chat log. I've seen the same behavior happening more often recently in DF groups.

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Originally Posted by Aegrus

The problem with this negative outlook on parsers is based purely on anecdotal evidence.

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Up until earlier this month I'd fall into such a statement. But such changed in a rather arduous Fractal run. Mobs would occasionally run rampant, bosses took longer than usual until the last boss. After the first wipe the tank immediately started complaining about our output, even going so far as to claim to be the top DPS of the fight. And then they plastered everyone's DPS numbers, in party chat, to 'illustrate' their point. Wiped a second time, complained even more, posted everyone's numbers again and started a /voteabandon. Vote failed, they left, new tank dropped in and we sailed through the fight like nothing was wrong. While I do think parsers, as a personal metric, might have merits it's this kind of behavior I can't condone and should not be tolerated in the slightest.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

Official ingame parser or even only a parser that would be tied to dummy would be a nice start...

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An in game parser that only you could see, alright.
An in game parser that others could see, no thanks. It will do more harm than good. I hope Yoshida stays firm in his decision to keep parsers out of this game.
Just remember, a parser isn't a magic fix for players who don't know their rotations or for people who don't care about their performance.

Something needs to be done, but what is the solution? It's not so simple as you might think.

There have been MMOs with parsers, detailed instructions, and dungeon simulation. None of these solve the 'bad player' problem. I've done the guild and raid lead thing before, and even with supposed 'better and geared players' there are legions of players who are unprepared, do not do research, and just stink at the game. I really believe the issue really is cultural, and specific to North America.

Whether we like it or not, western MMO players tolerate poor play and say, "it's OK, it's a play style and you're free to embrace it." Until as a culture we shame these players more, make it clear that subpar play is not acceptable, nothing will ever change.

To be clear, I don't mean someone who does a little bit less than the top DPS and people say "lols you're bad." I'm talking about the ice mages, the dot-less and garuda-less summoners, the 'I don't need a fairy' scholars, the auto-attackers and afkers. Far too often we say, "you pay your own 15 bucks a month, you can play the game however you want." Then these people come into groups and don't understand the problem, then the players who are doing the best we can, get frustrated. So you then say, "Ok, let's find someone new," and the problem becomes these terrible players outnumber the good players way too much. It's why people run and hide into statics, as if no one else but their static exists on the servers.

Basically, nothing is going to change. We need to alter our culture way too much from coddling alternate play styles to poor play is not acceptable in any circumstances. Get into your statics and linkshells, and hope there are enough good players there so you can enjoy the content.

edit:

Just to add, I am someone that would love more widespread parsers. In a trial or raid, will it make rotation errors go away? Heavens no! But you know what it does? It lets you spot the bad player instantly. If I'm in a group and I see a DPS below tanks and healers, then I know if the player doesn't get replaced, it's nothing but wipes. Parsers saves you time and headaches.

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Until as a culture we shame these players more, make it clear that subpar play is not acceptable, nothing will ever change.

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Two problems:
1) the chance it will drive away subs mean that there is no way it'll fly with Square.
2) It won't work even for the players who don't leave. My inlaws played WoW with us and no amount of tutoring from us or people in instances reading them the riot act changed their behavior. There are some players who simply don't care and nothing will fix that. If politely giving advice doesn't work, walk away. All shaming will do is earn you a possible GM action.

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I'm talking about the ice mages,

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Yeah, hate those too. "I never run out of mana!" Yeah, but the boss never dies either.

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garuda-less summoners,

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HEY! I use Ifrit most of the time.

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Originally Posted by Teryaani

Two problems:
1) the chance it will drive away subs mean that there is no way it'll fly with Square.
2) It won't work even for the players who don't leave. My inlaws played WoW with us and no amount of tutoring from us or people in instances reading them the riot act changed their behavior. There are some players who simply don't care and nothing will fix that. If politely giving advice doesn't work, walk away. All shaming will do is earn you a possible GM action.

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The sub issue is most definitely tied to this problem. A developer doesn't want to lose players, but they don't want to frustrate their players either. It's why Blizzard did the tourist mode LFR. It didn't fix the bad player problem completely, but it kept some of the bads out of higher tier content.

Shaming probably wasn't the right word, too, particularly in light of MMO communities. 'Frowned upon' would be the better phrase. In other words, create a culture where failing horribly is something truly embarrassing.

Your anecdote is all too common. I've seen it a lot as well, and I can never understand it. Lacking the drive to be better, no matter what it is, is something I'll never get.

Isn't failing horribly already truly embarrassing? If I die more than once in a dungeon I'll bomb off and eat a penalty I am burning in the ears so much (unless everyone else dies too around the same time). I remember in the Vault I once ported to the beginning of the dungeon instead of accepting a rez and the other BLM called me names and cussed at me and sighed over how terrible I was, laughing it up with the healer. I remember feeling embarrassed and angry (because the BLM was using ley lines never and consistently died within 1.5 seconds of me) and then, because it's the Vault, very, very sad.


To this day I can't handle the Vault. It makes me cry in every way a dungeon can make me cry. This is an accurate depiction of me in that dungeon:

http://nlc.p3k.hu/data/cikk/15/146762/7.jpg

Stuff on the ground, stuff on the ground everywhere!

Erm yes where was I going with this before I so rudely interrupted myself.

Oh, yeah.

Embarrassment only kicks in if your sense of dignity or pride has been harmed. Those folks who auto attack on Bismarck's back have no such pride so I doubt being told off will bend them much. Those of us "bad" DPS who do get embarrassed are actually trying and feeling even more embarrassed about it to the point of feeling ashamed of ourselves will probably drive a lot of us out of the game.

There needs to be some better tutorials baked into the class quests to give you a sense of your rotation. Some have that a little bit but not much. A better learning experience could lower the number of bad DPS. But not the auto-attack crowd. Nothing anyone does will stop them from doing as they do.

What a great way to ruin a game designed for casual players !!! do something about bad dps !!!! you people kill me, you think they would actually do that?

Im sure everyone is aware that the vast majority of the money SE makes every month is from CASUAL players. Why on earth would they want to alienate those people? :confused:

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Originally Posted by SonTensei

What a great way to ruin a game designed for casual players

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Casual players are not bads, please stop insulting casuals. Trying to clear a dungeon doesn't make one "hardcore".

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Originally Posted by SonTensei

What a great way to ruin a game designed for casual players !!! do something about bad dps !!!! you people kill me, you think they would actually do that?

Im sure everyone is aware that the vast majority of the money SE makes every month is from CASUAL players. Why on earth would they want to alienate those people? :confused:

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Exactly. People have a right to suck. They pay just like everybody else. There is no reason to remove them from a duty. The last time I checked that was not one of the reasons listed for removal. This thread is a joke and the jokers in it are something else. Reminds me of A1 when a number of new people were playing for the first time during the first week and this one scholar after a wipe on the first series started to tell people that if their DPS was less than 600 they should leave and went on to tell the entire party what each members dps was. Suffice it to say that scholar was removed from the duty for harassment before starting again.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

People have a right to suck. There is no reason to remove them for a duty. The last time I checked that was not one of the reasons listed for removal. This thread is a joke and the jokers in it are something else. Reminds me of A1 when a number of new people were playing for the first time during the first week and this one scholar after a wipe on the first series started to tell people that if their DPS was less than 600 they should leave and went on to tell the entire party what each members dps was. Suffice it to say that scholar was removed from the duty for harassment before starting again.

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By that same logic if I went into Alexander and did nothing but Blizzard 1 all day I'd be a massive detriment to the group and well aware of it (because you CANNOT beat even the BLM class quests doing just Blizz 1 into perpetuity). I'd be harassing the group too and could be removed.

What I'm arguing, albeit sloppily, is that bad DPS come in 2 camps:

1. Bad DPS who are genuinely trying but don't know their class yet. They may be new players who are just doing endgame with their class for the first time. They will make mistakes.
2. Bad DPS who are purposefully lazy and just want to be carried through content.

I'm not sure there is an elegant way to punish the latter without also harming the former.

I'm not opposed to parsers for the record, I am commenting more on the idea of nurturing an environment that will cause bad DPS to feel ashamed.

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Originally Posted by SonTensei

Im sure everyone is aware that the vast majority of the money SE makes every month is from CASUAL players. Why on earth would they want to alienate those people? :confused:

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What does this have to do with parsers? Or does casual player equates bad dps in your world?

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Originally Posted by SonTensei

What a great way to ruin a game designed for casual players !!! do something about bad dps !!!! you people kill me, you think they would actually do that?

Im sure everyone is aware that the vast majority of the money SE makes every month is from CASUAL players. Why on earth would they want to alienate those people? :confused:

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The thing is people can already see if a tank or healer is not doing their job well. But if you play a dps there is no way to tell. Leads me to believe why its the most played role because there is no accountability.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Exactly. People have a right to suck. They pay just like everybody else. There is no reason to remove them from a duty. The last time I checked that was not one of the reasons listed for removal.

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The thing you conveniently don't mention, is that SE stated there is nothing they can do when a party agrees to kick someone. You can browse the forums for countless threads of people who got kicked, contacted a GM only to get told there is nothing they can do for them.

When people have the right to suck, people should also have the right to know they suck. I for one would choose not to play with them.

It's funny how people like you always have a beautiful DF story about this one guy gone ham about DPS. I do plenty of DF stuff. Once in a while there will be a moron dictating people. 9.9 out of 10 times there is nothing bad going on. People always pick stories to justify and strengthen their argument, it makes me snigger.

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Originally Posted by Terribad

Casual players are not bads, please stop insulting casuals. Trying to clear a dungeon doesn't make one "hardcore".

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the game was designed to be easy and low stress if you want to categorize bads as bad players thats fine, casuals whatever.. point is they arent going to piss off the core subscriber base so people need to get over the bad good thing already. they are here to stay!

Honestly, people make a good point that the class quests do jack all to prepare you for actual game content. This is my first MMO and even though I knew nothing about how MMOs worked I've been playing RPG games for years, so my initial inclination was, this is just like a regular RPG just with the added benefit of other ppl. (Something I'm sure is common with many players at first.) With that mindset it actually took someone telling me how the monk rotation really worked because the class quest doesn't tell you jack shit about what the rotation does (as in, how to build good DPS damage.) It's literally 'here's your attacks'. The attack tooltip explains just enough to be confusing and...I'll be honest. I didn't know wtf cooldown meant, what exactly each attack did in terms of damage, AoE, dot, etc...and how would I?! I'd never heard those terms before.

That was my mentality at the time, and it took ppl telling me for me to go 'oh wait I'm doing this wrong?' so while I'm not for parsers because I think ppl would be too quick to be assholes about them, I am DEFINITELY for expanding the class/job quests to actually TEACH YOU SHIT. Hell, there wasn't even a quest for Monk that required you to do your rotation successfully to complete it [at least not that I remember.]

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Originally Posted by Eli85

Your anecdote is all too common. I've seen it a lot as well, and I can never understand it. Lacking the drive to be better, no matter what it is, is something I'll never get.

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Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense. I admit that I'm not as diligent as I should be with CDs like raging strikes (normally only in the first part of the fight unless I'm really on the ball) and the like, but I try to keep enochian up long enough for it to cooldown. I accept that there is an upper limit to how fast/aware I am but I try and I agree that it's weird to not want to get better.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

Isn't failing horribly already truly embarrassing?

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For some of us, yeah it is. Trust me when I say that when that git kicked the healer, she (said healer) spent the next 10 minutes asking "was it me?". Only after we queued again and with a less geared tank we cleared the content without issue did she calm down.

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because the BLM was using ley lines never

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I'm so guilty of this. I pop it at the start of every boss fight and then I get a twinge of guilt when I see another BLM in the run use it again.

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Stuff on the ground, stuff on the ground everywhere!

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"SICKNESS MUST BE PURGED!"

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Originally Posted by SonTensei

the game was designed to be easy and low stress if you want to categorize bads as bad players thats fine, casuals whatever.. point is they arent going to piss off the core subscriber base so people need to get over the bad good thing already. they are here to stay!

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How is the game designed to be easy and low stress when they have mechanics that most of these "casual"(core base) players can't pass?

Anyway no one is saying make the bad players leave, I think most people here don't care what bads do. They just want a parser so they don't have to deal with bads that refuse to learn.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

There is no reason to remove them from a duty..

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You mean other than halt the progress of everyone else there? I could understand this point if we're talking about easy content in DF, but I don't like it. That person is wasting 7 other people's time. If it's through party finder, they're getting the boot.

DPS meters is probably one of the leading reasons why any group related activity is toxic in WOW. Please don't make that same mistake here.

Just don't do DFs more than the minimum necessary to get your tomestones, etc. Use a pre-selected group for the rest.

I have kicked bad dps from my df groups. It's always been only when they are extremely bad to the point we cannot clear the content with them. If I'm doing A1 normal for gear and it's apparent we can't meet the enrage because all the dps are underperforming I'll discuss it with the group and pick one person who seems to be the lowest and kick them. Usually this is determined by the person who is new and went in blind so spent most the time on the floor, but it can also be the person who never uses a cd ever or doesn't bother to do any positionals. You don't need a parser to tell who isn't pulling their weight.

The content is becoming now weighted with tight dps checks so this is becoming more common.

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Originally Posted by Seunkii

Snip

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There's loads more MMOs out there with parsers and they handle it fine. Everything doesn't always have to go down the route WoW did with it's community.

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Originally Posted by SonTensei

What a great way to ruin a game designed for casual players !!! do something about bad dps !!!! you people kill me, you think they would actually do that?

Im sure everyone is aware that the vast majority of the money SE makes every month is from CASUAL players. Why on earth would they want to alienate those people? :confused:

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When did "casual" become syonymous with "bad"? I know some casual players that are actually pretty damn good at the game. Just because you don't have as much time to play doesn't mean you can't be good at it.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Exactly. People have a right to suck. They pay just like everybody else.

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I agree. If they just don't care or don't want to improve, that's their prerogative. However...

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There is no reason to remove them from a duty. The last time I checked that was not one of the reasons listed for removal.

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I can't agree with this. If one person playing the game "their way" (whatever that may entail) is standing in the way of seven other people trying to play the game a different way, eventually something's gotta give. Why vote abandon when you can remove one person and have a viable team? GM's have stated on these forums in the past that a difference of playstyle is a legitimate reason to remove someone from a duty. The other seven people are paying customers too, and they also deserve to get what they want to out of the game.

Don't get me wrong, I think that people deserve a chance to improve. Even if someone with awful DPS joins one of my static's PF's and we can't clear because of it, we're as nice about it as we possibly can be. We've gone as far as to sit down and go over rotations with people or link them to guides if they're on a class we're not proficient with. A lot of people do listen and do improve and it's great to see them finally clear content. A very vocal few flip eggrolls, scream "Don't tell me how to play my class!" and ragequit.

I get it, not everyone is on equal footing as far as skill level goes, but there's something to be said for at least trying. If you're having a hard time, look up a guide (there's tons of them) or find someone that's really good at your class and pick their brain for pointers. You really can't expect to clear content if you don't want to optimize and perform to the best of your ability. That's tantamount to saying that your "playstyle" is "letting other people carry you" and honestly if you want that, pay a merc group and eat wall.

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This thread is a joke and the jokers in it are something else. Reminds me of A1 when a number of new people were playing for the first time during the first week and this one scholar after a wipe on the first series started to tell people that if their DPS was less than 600 they should leave and went on to tell the entire party what each members dps was. Suffice it to say that scholar was removed from the duty for harassment before starting again.

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That's a perfect example of someone that would've been just as much of an asshole without a parser. He probably would've just cursed and gibbered incoherently at the party instead of spouting off numbers.

A parser is a tool. They don't make people stupid, but stupid people unfortunately have access to them.

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Originally Posted by SonTensei

What a great way to ruin a game designed for casual players !!! do something about bad dps !!!! you people kill me, you think they would actually do that?

Im sure everyone is aware that the vast majority of the money SE makes every month is from CASUAL players. Why on earth would they want to alienate those people? :confused:

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I find it offensive that you think casual player also means bad player.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

Exactly. People have a right to suck. They pay just like everybody else.

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I'm a bit late to the game, but are you actually trying to say "People have a right to suck," or is it "People have a right to be new/inexperienced." There's a big difference between the two. :)

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Originally Posted by Gilraen

Up until earlier this month I'd fall into such a statement. But such changed in a rather arduous Fractal run. Mobs would occasionally run rampant, bosses took longer than usual until the last boss. After the first wipe the tank immediately started complaining about our output, even going so far as to claim to be the top DPS of the fight. And then they plastered everyone's DPS numbers, in party chat, to 'illustrate' their point. Wiped a second time, complained even more, posted everyone's numbers again and started a /voteabandon. Vote failed, they left, new tank dropped in and we sailed through the fight like nothing was wrong. While I do think parsers, as a personal metric, might have merits it's this kind of behavior I can't condone and should not be tolerated in the slightest.

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That will always happen. Stupid people use metrics in stupid ways. He obviously was bad and would of justified his viewpoints some other way if he didn't have access to a parser. The parser didn't make him an asshole, he decided that when he woke up that morning

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Originally Posted by Totobi

There really needs to be some sort of in-game guide on how to play your class atleast somewhat competently, perhaps tied in with the job quests. It is incredibly frustrating how regularly you meet DPS who cannot even out-dps a PALADIN IN SHIELD OATH.

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It still wouldn't make people who are eating, watching Netflix, texting, answering the door, etc. etc. play any better. It's not always just a matter of "not knowing how to play".

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Originally Posted by Sereven

Wow. Way to take the high ground and call someone an idiot in the same span.

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Funny how you quote me, but don't actually read the quote. Firstly, I wasn't insulting you, merely saying the idea that everyone should be playing the exact same way is just silly. It's never going to happen, so we should stop expecting it. End of story.

Secondly, if you consider 'paint by numbers' to be a slight on your playing style then you missed the entire point. I used that analogy because it's formulaic. You do the same things as everyone else would do given the same formula. Again, if that's how you want to play more power to you. Just don't expect everyone to do likewise, because, again, it's never going to happen.

You're right there's no crime in wanting to improve. And people SHOULD want to improve. That's a good, wholesome thing. What's neither good nor wholesome is this idealist expectation that everyone needs to reach the same level of perfection. That was the focal point of my post that you seemed to gloss over entirely.

EX and Savage modes are considered optional content, so people should have the OPTION of excluding bad players without being made to feel guilty about it.

Like I said in another thread, difficult content needs to be gate-checked by mandatory difficult single player guildhests. Let the game itself sort the chaff from the wheat and save raid leaders the embarrassment of having to be the "Elitist bad guy meanie," who pays his fifteen a month like everyone else and wants to have fun.

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Originally Posted by Terribad

There's loads more MMOs out there with parsers and they handle it fine. Everything doesn't always have to go down the route WoW did with it's community.

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Personal Parsers are fine.
Everyone can see, is not.
This community has a hard time being nice, and sometimes a cesspool.
Hell a lot of people here came from WoW lol.

I main DPS and I am 100% in favor of a parser. If a tank or healer is doing their job poorly, they'll get called out on it-- it shouldn't be any different for DPS. We should be held to the same standards of performance as the other classes.

I'm kind of split on this. A part of me really likes to help out people new to content, especially the Extreme Primals, so I tend to be really forgiving.

But then I have a part of me that tends to get fed up after the same wipe cause after like 10 tries, and it's usually ONE person doing it over and over. I'd totally be up for people getting personal parsers, though, I don't think a lot of people are going to try/care, even having one to see how poorly they're doing. I know a few people on my server that just like to grief, and are extremely good about how they execute it, so I just avoid those parties.

Duty Finder is a whole other story, and I don't see a need or reason for giving someone a chiding, or vice versa being given one myself.

So..when did this game become so competitive. I thought they eliminated the competitiveness of old school mmos by making all things instance, taking out high level gear from open world notorious monsters and such. It's been said a million times over, don't want to deal with "bad players" don't use Duty finder. Don't want bad players in your Party Finder, don't allow randoms you don't know. Simple as that or suck it up.

Honestly, I still don't see the logic of a parse program helping someone get better.

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Originally Posted by Natashio

So..when did this game become so competitive. I thought they eliminated the competitiveness of old school mmos by making all things instance, taking out high level gear from open world notorious monsters and such. It's been said a million times over, don't want to deal with "bad players" don't use Duty finder. Don't want bad players in your Party Finder, don't allow randoms you don't know. Simple as that or suck it up.

Honestly, I still don't see the logic of a parse program helping someone get better.

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Parsers don't necessarily help bad players get better: What parsers actually do, is make it easy for better players to divest themselves of bad players.

This itself isn't a bad thing. There is plenty of casual content in this game that is accessible for everyone, and when that's no longer enough to meet their interests, that's when they should be encouraged to step up their skills and go for the harder stuff.

The real problems stem chiefly from the belief that being a good player = being a smart human being. It's not true. Many skillful players are also selfish idiots who set up groups for trivial content with stringent requirements that casuals can't meet. It's because of them that we can't have nice things.

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Originally Posted by Mikhaill

Personal Parsers are fine.
Everyone can see, is not.
This community has a hard time being nice, and sometimes a cesspool.
Hell a lot of people here came from WoW lol.

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Most of the playerbase playing FF14 are from FF11, not much from WoW, dunno why people are blaming people who make up a tiny amount from Wow considering where most people came from.

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Originally Posted by Natashio

Honestly, I still don't see the logic of a parse program helping someone get better.

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I have personally seen them help multiple people, actually. Just as an example: I was doing Odin with some friends, one of whom was also a DRG with almost the exact same gear that I had. After the fight, a friend was looking at the parse they had done and remarked that I was out-DPSing the other DRG by a bit over 100, which shouldn't be happening in a fight like Odin where there are no real mechanics to deal with. I offered to look at their rotation to see what was going on, and sure enough, there were some things they were doing wrong. Once that was corrected, their parses were about the same as mine.

A parser can be the first indication that someone is doing something wrong. Once you know that, you can work on fixing it.

"But this is like, just your opinion man. Stop taking it so seriously it's just a game!"

I kid... this is exactly why I stopped being a healer and became full time DPS. I was sick of people flailing helplessly at the enemy's praying that they died and decided if I was ever going to be in a party with reliable DPS, I'd have to be that DPS...

...Also my tanks kept freaking out when I'd sit in cleric stance most the time and just toss them the occasional lustrate... pussies.

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Originally Posted by Galgarion

Parsers don't necessarily help bad players get better: What parsers actually do, is make it easy for better players to divest themselves of bad players.

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No.

It is, like any other tool used for stratagizing, and analyzing. Lets takea scenario. 4000 DPS is needed from the 4 DPS to beat the enrage timer, 3 of them are doing the required 1000 DPS each. the fourth is only pulling 950. The difference is too small to see from just watching. How would you be able to see where the problem is exactly without numerical feedback that a parser gives? You wouldnt unless you spent hours calculating from the battle log which wouldn't give ou the ful picture anyways due to the battle log not listing DoTs.

Parsers point out that. Refining rotations, they are also the cause of certain jobs getting buffed because players where able to anaylze the results and see that BLM and DRG and SMN where underperforming in comparison to the other DPS jobs which was why they ended up getting buffs to bring them upto speed. Without those players reporting feedback after testing with a parser, those changes probably would never have happened.

Also, from experience. Those "Elite players" who set really high entry requirements for content usually are bad players looking for over geared skilled players to carry them through content. Also, if there isn't a PF party that fits your requirements, whats stopping you from creating your own with your own set requirements?

Also you are very naive if you think people don't kick underperforming players from parties even without parsers, only difference if they added parsers is the DPS being kicked would know exactly why instead of the party not being able to tell them due to the ToS and parsers/3rd party programs. Players who join parties and have had no feedback on their performance and thius get blizzard spamming BLMS, MNKs who can't maintain GL1, never mind 3, DRGs with terrible rotations etc. Two things happen tto them, 1: they get carried so they leave with the impresison they are doing everything fine. or 2: they get removed from the party with no understanding why because of the above reasons. If a MNK goes into a DF and gets paired with another MNK and an official parser shows that they are doing 300 DPS and the other MNK is doing 900 DPS. Don't you think then they will realise, they are doing something wrong?

When I switched to MNK, I read up some guides, practiced and starting doing content in DF to get some hands on dungeon experience. Thought I was doing fine until I got paired with a kick ass MNK, who, from the parser results, kicked my ass XD So I took that to heart, practiced on the dummies more, refined my rotation and when to optimise use of OGCD skills and pushed my self harder until the next time I was paired with a great MNK in DF. I held my own at worst, or often, matched them. (Gear difference allowing of course ^_^ ).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikhaill

Personal Parsers are fine.
Everyone can see, is not.
This community has a hard time being nice, and sometimes a cesspool.
Hell a lot of people here came from WoW lol.

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And a lot of the people that came here from WoW gripes about WoW's community.
I honestly don't think this community has a hard time being nice, it's just a lot of babies here that use words they heard from some place else. Average players want to clear stuff and they get called elitist.
Handing out tips makes you elitist here.