Yoshi P / Dev Team: FAVOR System - Please Fix This BROKEN System

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

What he's saying is it would have been unfair to buff the yield rate since you would be rewarding those who hoarded tokens in anticipation of a change and punishing those who participated in the previous system.

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I understand that but I don't think that is a good reason to forgo making change though, Everyone will benefit from positive changes it is true that some will benefit more than others but that doesn't stop it from being a positive change.
People who start doing favors now will have to spend less time, Should they not have shortened the time duration because everyone else previously had to spend longer? is it not "unfair" that player A spent 3 hours* to do what player B can do now in an hour*?
We make changes for the future not the past, we can only look forward in making things better.

(*hours are just an example and not reflective of actual time taken.)

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Originally Posted by Alysrea

The mentality that they should be afraid to improve things because people had it bad before isn't a good way going forward, the way you need to look at it is, the people that did it when it was bad will have a better time in the future.
Better later than never when trying to make things better

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Yeah. I spent days farming favors and I really want a better drop rate. I don't understand how keep screwing us all will help not screwing some people. Besides, this adjustment is pointless imo, get the same items in less time is cool (IF you get the same amount of items), but don't change the fact that demand is surpassing offering by a crazy amount, turning new crafting recipes near unreachable. THIS SYSTEM IS STUPID.

That's how any fix works. People who hoarded tokens are still rewarded by getting the same reward in a third of the time. Why not go the rest of the way and actually fix it?

They can either be "fair" and keep us all stuck with a terrible RNG-based system for months, or they could fix it for everybody with an apology to the early adopters. The latter is the far better choice. If they fix things quickly, it sucks for early adopters and encourages people to just hold out for awhile and hope things get fixed. If they refuse to make meaningful change for months, it encourages people to just give up entirely because there's no hope of things getting better anytime soon. What doesn't happen in either case is for people to start enjoying a system they hate.

I'm tired of getting content that's charitably described as "not that bad". When that's the best you can say, it's failing as a means of entertainment.

Early adopters got all their shiny new gear first or made a lot of gil by selling mats/gear. With the way it is now, I expect more people to participate and hence begin seeing a larger supply of mats/gear driving prices down.

Why do we feel the need to compensate early adopters so much?

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

What he's saying is it would have been unfair to buff the yield rate since you would be rewarding those who hoarded tokens in anticipation of a change and punishing those who participated in the previous system.

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You dont really believe that do you? I mean the system is still the exact same broken system...but now with the tuning that should have been in place before its release.

Not everyone sold their favor mats (and gear? lol... XD). Imagine you gathered 11 hrs a week and crafted a whole set. Now they would double items/favor and suddenly all the lazy people who kept their tokens (like me) would start gathering and soon be 1 set ahead of you with less time spent. not really fair.
Its not like simply buffing the favor spawnrate would "fix" the current system anyway.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

You dont really believe that do you? I mean the system is still the exact same broken system...but now with the tuning that should have been in place before its release.

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It's not a broken system because it works. You just don't like how it works so you're stamping the word broken on it.

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Originally Posted by Ossom

It's not a broken system because it works. You just don't like how it works so you're stamping the word broken on it.

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So you think the system is OK as long as you are able to craft? C'mon, you can't be that simple minded.

As long as the crafted materials and crafted gears doesn't flow in the market, its broken. No one is selling and no one is buying for numerous reasons.

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Originally Posted by Jade-Nephrite

Just tried my first batch of new Favors - got 17 Bladeleaf + 2 Swordleaf in 5 Favors, unless I can make up 3 on my next attempt of 5 they need to adjust the proc-rate. Hopefully more players will do favors and the mats will drop in price on the MB

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Did my 2nd set of 5 Favors, got 26 Bladeleaf + 2 Swordleaf for a total for the 2 tokens of 43 Bladeleaf + 4 Swordleaf seems balanced :)

In the interest of having more data, I just did 7 favors (since that's what I had on hand) and got 27 bladeleaf and 8 (!) swordleaf.
It's definitely streaky. The bladeleaf count for individual favors was 1, 5, 5, 6, 2, 3, and 5.
Between Jade's results and mine, it looks like the return is definitely looking to be more than the 3 items per favor that was the conventional wisdom prior to the update.

(Edit: Miscounted, there was a HQ bladeleaf in there.)

It seems to be pretty much exactly the same. (RNG)

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

You dont really believe that do you? I mean the system is still the exact same broken system...but now with the tuning that should have been in place before its release.

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I've said before my only issue with favors was the time required. I don't find the yield rate to be that bad. I would have 5 crafting tokens leftover after 5 weeks had I not used 3 to buy an HQ mat to finish off a piece. So buying the occasional HQ mat, I would have no problem using my crafting tokens every week. I've crafted 12 pieces in 5 weeks which seems reasonable to me. I think the recipes are garbage and that the grind lacks an objective other than getting the crafting gear itself. But as for the red scrips and the favors, I think they're fine now that they've lowered the favor time.

Would I have been upset if they upped the yield significantly? A bit, yes. I didn't find the yield to be bad and I've spent 55 hours over the past 5 weeks on this. If they had suddenly cut the time required into a third and doubled the total yield, I would have been salty that I wasted all that time only to have less to show for it. I don't find the system to be broken like you, and others, obviously do and I've participated in it enough to believe my opinion is as legitimate as anyone else's.

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

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They handled it the way I'd hoped. They reduced the time sink but did it in a way that didn't punish the people that had already spent Favors. A flat yield bonus would've been a slap in the face.

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Originally Posted by kenventa

So you think the system is OK as long as you are able to craft? C'mon, you can't be that simple minded.

As long as the crafted materials and crafted gears doesn't flow in the market, its broken. No one is selling and no one is buying for numerous reasons.

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One of the biggest complaints is people couldn't craft because they had to spend 3-6 hrs gathering mats to do one 5 minute synth. This patch reduced that time to 1-2 hrs. The reduced time might encourage gatherers to sell the favor materials at more affordable prices.

As the person above mentioned, the recipes are garbage. You have irrelevant combat gear and DoH pyramid scheme gear that is currently for glamours and epeen. No amount of favor adjust is going to make these items sell unless the favor mats were free/trivial to acquire (ex: Law tomes).

As long as I can average ~ 20 mats per set of 5 Favors I'm good, if I have to buy or trade for some that I was hit with bad RNG I can manage, it's really nothing when comparing RNG to a 6% Pentameld

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

A flat yield bonus would've been a slap in the face.

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This gets mentioned a lot, but it doesn't hold up. The reward for your effort is getting items sooner. We all know they'll be easier to get later. Early adopters can sell their mats at a higher price or gear up sooner. Either way, they got their reward so it's not unfair to make changes. What's unfair is rewarding them perpetually by letting them get further and further ahead.

Imagine a race track with hurdles. Everyone knows the hurdles will be removed, but several racers jump them anyway. When the hurdles are removed, those who jumped still have a head start on those who waited. That head start is the reward for their effort.

A fair compromise would be to announce a detailed fix ahead of time - like a 30 day price guarantee, but a warning instead of a refund. They did this for atma and it worked great. Some waited, some didn't, but both groups knew what to expect and chose accordingly.

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Originally Posted by seorin

This gets mentioned a lot, but it doesn't hold up. The reward for your effort is getting items sooner. We all know they'll be easier to get later. Early adopters can sell their mats at a higher price or gear up sooner. Either way, they got their reward so it's not unfair to make changes. What's unfair is rewarding them perpetually by letting them get further and further ahead.

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The problem with your argument in this scenario is that the ONLY reason currently to get the gear early is to be ready for the next set of recipes. So what have I gained from my favor participation thus far? Nothing. I have gear with great stats that I can't craft anything with. I haven't reaped any reward at all. The whole purpose of me gearing up faster with favors is so that I'll be on the first boat when the new recipes arrive (and because I enjoy crafting). So if they had flipped it around so everyone could obtain double what I have, I'm essentially being punished for participating in the system early. Instead they've made it so everyone can more easily be even with me (not put me further ahead like you mentioned) which is great.

Well thats not true. You could have made and sold items for considerably more then I'm sure they now sell for. So saying you did not gain anything from this isn't quite right. On top of that, having more items on the market benefits you as well.

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Originally Posted by seorin

A fair compromise would be to announce a detailed fix ahead of time - like a 30 day price guarantee, but a warning instead of a refund. They did this for atma and it worked great. Some waited, some didn't, but both groups knew what to expect and chose accordingly.

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You mean like this?

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Originally Posted by Grekumah

Greetings,We are planning to make adjustments to the duration of the Favors purchased with red scrips and the frequency of the Concealed Nodes spawn so that it'll become easier for everyone to participate. Once we have more information, we'll make further announcements. We appreciate your patience while we work on these adjustments.

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The drop rates are fine: 4-5 Favor is approximately 20 favor mats. The comes out to be 1 Rowena Gathering Token and 1 Rowena Crafting Token per Ingot/Lumber etc. Sounds like it's exactly what they were aiming for.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Well thats not true. You could have made and sold items for considerably more then I'm sure they now sell for. So saying you did not gain anything from this isn't quite right. On top of that, having more items on the market benefits you as well.

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This current change will increase favor materials on the market. How do you know for a fact the problem was the yield per favor and not the yield per time that was discouraging people from doing these?

The 5 pieces of red scrip gear is what a lot of gatherers have said as why they've avoided favors, mainly the tool.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

This current change will increase favor materials on the market. How do you know for a fact the problem was the yield per favor and not the yield per time that was discouraging people from doing these?

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The opposite could be asked also. How you know the problem was the amount and not the amount of the yields? I know the (fix?) just happened but how are so sure more items will be on the market board when the yields are the same?

Everyone is reporting it's the same rate like when we had to go 15 mins (3 per favor). Plus people are still gated to 9 tokens per week. I'm really not seeing how that translates to more on the market board. Cause my server they are waaaaay to much gil atm.

I think the adjustment will provide a bit of an initial boost at least since some gatherers will want to try gathering the favor items and selling them for high prices since it's easier now. I'm seeing some more listings on my server now, but prices are still high. If sales are slow however, they might not be as eager to spend their gatherer tokens.

Another thing to consider though is that a number of gatherers will soon have enough tokens to exchange for their i180 chest piece and primary tool, the most important pieces of gear. I can see some of them using additional tokens to exchange for favors if they believe that they can capitalize on high prices. The faster drop rate should increase the supply on favor items much quicker than before.

I also think time is probably an issue for some players since I could never spend over 11 hours a week gathering favor items myself. The number of red scrips weren't even a problem for me since I could never reach my weekly upper limit on favor items.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

This current change will increase favor materials on the market. How do you know for a fact the problem was the yield per favor and not the yield per time that was discouraging people from doing these?

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Forgive me as I just woke up, but wasnt that exactly what I wrote?

There are 3 groups of people who would sell favor materials on the mb.

-Those that want to farm them for gil from the start.
-Those more interested in gearing up first, then selling them.
-Crafters who farm their own and sell their leftovers.

Favor yield per time was what discouraged those gatherers looking to make gil.
This change makes it so more of them (or any, really) will farm them for gil.


However, favors still come from red scrips meaning that those who first wanted to gear up still have to do so. The favor change won't make them farm materials and sell them on the mb.


The third group, whose biggest problem was always the limit to the materials they could obtain is a bit of an odd one. Some will now farm the favors, others still wont.
However since they are doing this to obtain materials for themselves, you wont see many more favors materials from their actions, however you will see more finished items, or refined materials.


Overall, with the favor change you will see more materials on the mb.
Something to the benefit of everyone, including those that already spend all of their own favor materials.

However for a crafter, the real limitation is still the limit on refined materials, and subsequently the limit on finished items.


That said, as prices drop I'm sure availability of materials will drop again as well. Keep in mind most people will not be very interested into favors. And those that are can only farm so many of them per week.
Right now supply is relatively high for both favor and refined materials because everyone has been saving tokens for a month.

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Originally Posted by Ranzan

I'm really not seeing how that translates to more on the market board. Cause my server they are waaaaay to much gil atm.

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Less time consuming means you are more likely to attract people interested to farm them at all. However as you say, it does not increase the maximum supply of materials on the market which is still limited with a weekly cap.

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

The problem with your argument in this scenario is that the ONLY reason currently to get the gear early is to be ready for the next set of recipes. So what have I gained from my favor participation thus far? Nothing.

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You still made the choice to do it knowing it would be easier later. If you didn't enjoy it or at least feel the head start was worth it, you can only blame yourself for assuming you'd get a reward that was never promised nor implied. It's like complaining about buying a game the week before the big Steam holiday sale. You know the sale happens every year, it's not 'unfair' when it does. You even benefit from more people to play with.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

You mean like this?

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Yes, which is why it would have been fair for them to increase yield, reduce RNG, or any number of other potential fixes. Ideally they could give even more detailed info ahead of time, but I'll take what I can get.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

Well thats not true. You could have made and sold items for considerably more then I'm sure they now sell for. So saying you did not gain anything from this isn't quite right. On top of that, having more items on the market benefits you as well.

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The only way I could have sold anything is at the cost of my own progression. And that's assuming I could have even sold anything had I wanted to considering how limited the market is. There's been a grand total of zero 2 star pieces sold on Adamantoise last I checked.

It does not benefit me as I am still gated by my red scrips. As I said before, I could quite easily use all my red crafting tokens weekly with the mats I farm if I bought the HQ mats now and again.

This is a really flimsy argument coming from someone who took a month to sell one offhand.

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Originally Posted by seorin

You still made the choice to do it knowing it would be easier later. If you didn't enjoy it or at least feel the head start was worth it, you can only blame yourself for assuming you'd get a reward that was never promised nor implied. It's like complaining about buying a game the week before the big Steam holiday sale. You know the sale happens every year, it's not 'unfair' when it does. You even benefit from more people to play with.

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When I started favors 5 weeks ago I had no idea they would be made easier so that's a pretty big leap. I have no one to blame for anything since they didn't increase the yield? I elected to continue to do them the last 2 weeks after the announcement adjustments would be made because I was fairly confident they would recognize that increasing the yield would be unfair and unnecessary.

Haha it's NOTHING like the comparison you just made! They're not even remotely similar! Considering they didn't even announce it until 2 weeks ago and furthermore DIDN'T increase the yield, obviously it's not at all like the certainty of your big steam sale. Wow what a stretch.

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

When I started favors 5 weeks ago I had no idea they would be made easier so that's a pretty big leap.

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If you believed it would stay exactly as it was forever, then there's not much point in having a discussion. In a month or 3.2 or 3.5 or 4.0 it'll be much easier or just replaced outright. It's a matter of when not if. The only benefit to doing it now is your head start. You get it first. You can sell for the most. If you don't care about being first and don't capitalize on the opportunity it affords you, it's not "unfair" when your work goes to waste because you wasted it yourself.

I never stated I expected it to remain this way forever. I expect it to mostly stay status quo until the carrot is introduced: 3 star recipes. I have no problem with content eventually getting nerfed as it becomes dated. The problem is I'm not "first" to anything right now. There's nothing worth crafting at this point other than crafting gear. It appears they're pushing us to prepare for whenever the next crafting patch hits. If I'm wrong and the only reward in this patch is to craft 2 star gear nobody wants then you're correct, I'm wasting my window to be first. If I'm correct though, and this patch is more about progression, if they had increased the yield everyone who banked tokens would have leap frogged me and it would have compromised my ability to be first when new recipes are introduced. That would have been frustrating for me and rendered my last few weeks as, not only a waste of time, but also a detriment to my overall progression.

It's like if they suddenly nerfed Alex Savage, doubled the chests and at the same time told everyone that every Savage floor they hadn't cleared for the past 5 weeks was banked. Now all the groups who hadn't progressed as far (or at all) could quickly catch the front runners AND surpass them because they have banked runs and double the chests. Sure eventually this may happen down the road. But introducing it before the reward is even realized would be pretty unfortunate for those who were at the leading edge.

^thats exactly why i said increasing the yield would have been unfair. I dont mind if everyone can do it easier now, its just that people who did all favors before the patch would be behind despite having farmed 3 times longer. I dont know why people want a higher yield anyway, we get enough mats to use all our crafter tokens.

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

I have no problem with content eventually getting nerfed

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Nerfing it later is fine, but nerfing it now isn't? What determines where to draw the line? It's unrealistic (and selfish) to expect SE to wait until you personally feel you've been rewarded enough.

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

If I'm correct though, and this patch is more about progression...

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You're guessing what will happen and then getting upset if your fantasy doesn't come true. That's what I meant by, "you can only blame yourself for assuming you'd get a reward that was never promised." It's silly to expect SE to follow a plan that only exists in your imagination.

Also, people need to stop trying to compare raiding and crafting. They're too different for meaningful comparison.

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Originally Posted by Alexiell

I dont know why people want a higher yield anyway, we get enough mats to use all our crafter tokens.

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I can't speak for anyone else, but I agree that increasing yield would be a bad fix. I do want a meaningful fix, though. I'd love to see them move favors to blue scrip. Then put some of the two star crafting mats on the law vendor and we'd actually have a fairly functional system.

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

But introducing it before the reward is even realized would be pretty unfortunate for those who were at the leading edge.

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This comparison makes no sense. You cannot buy item drops from Alex after you already got yours for the week.
However for crafting having more materials on the market is in your benefit.

Regardless of whether its because you can get more, or others.


Besides, everyone expected a change. Anyone that did use the favors or tokens or whatever did so fully expecting it. Nay, hoping for it despite using their items.


Saying that it would be unfair to suddenly have higher yield despite all of this, just means you are using the argument for arguments sake rather then actually considering if it applies here.


''It would be unfair'' No, it would not. Unfair is having the system in its previous broken state implemented in the first place.

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Originally Posted by seorin

Nerfing it later is fine, but nerfing it now isn't? What determines where to draw the line? It's unrealistic (and selfish) to expect SE to wait until you personally feel you've been rewarded enough.



You're guessing what will happen and then getting upset if your fantasy doesn't come true. That's what I meant by, "you can only blame yourself for assuming you'd get a reward that was never promised." It's silly to expect SE to follow a plan that only exists in your imagination.

Also, people need to stop trying to compare raiding and crafting. They're too different for meaningful comparison.

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When there's any reward at all? I don't care where the line is drawn as long as there's SOME reward realized. All I'm saying that 5 weeks in when there's no carrot at all is clearly too soon. Is it selfish? Sure in some respect although I'm clearly not the only person who's partcipated. It's equally, if not more, selfish for you to suggest that it's fair or reasonable for us who have done favors to this point to fall from the leading edge to the back of the pack.

Oh god. A fantasy? It's what a large portion of the community believes will happen based on the fact the new gear gives us a whole bunch of stats that there's no recipes for. So no, it's not silly at all. It's a reasonable expectation given the current knowledge we have.

You just compared crafting to a flipping holiday steam sale! Seriously? Pot meet kettle?

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

This comparison makes no sense. You cannot buy item drops from Alex after you already got yours for the week.
However for crafting having more materials on the market is in your benefit.

Regardless of whether its because you can get more, or others.


Besides, everyone expected a change. Anyone that did use the favors or tokens or whatever did so fully expecting it. Nay, hoping for it despite using their items.


Saying that it would be unfair to suddenly have higher yield despite all of this, just means you are using the argument for arguments sake rather then actually considering if it applies here.


''It would be unfair'' No, it would not. Unfair is having the system in its previous broken state implemented in the first place.

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You talk like you speak on behalf of the whole community. You don't. I wanted a change to the time spent, not the yield, so get off your pedestal. It's not an argument for the sake of an argument. Your points do nothing to diminish the fact that suddenly increasing the yield 5 weeks into a progression patch where people can bank and hoard tokens would have been goofy and unfair. Your silly Miss Cleo crystal ball argument doesn't hold any water. There's people out there who probably did favors and don't even come on these forums.

You perceive that the whole crafting system is broken. I've seen your tirades in every thread for the past month. So it's no surprise that you believe any change to the system is warranted and desired. Not everyone agrees with you and your lack of empathy for anyone with an opinion differing from yours really discredits you.

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Originally Posted by seorin

Nerfing it later is fine, but nerfing it now isn't? What determines where to draw the line? It's unrealistic (and selfish) to expect SE to wait until you personally feel you've been rewarded enough.



You're guessing what will happen and then getting upset if your fantasy doesn't come true. That's what I meant by, "you can only blame yourself for assuming you'd get a reward that was never promised." It's silly to expect SE to follow a plan that only exists in your imagination.

Also, people need to stop trying to compare raiding and crafting. They're too different for meaningful comparison.

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Now they are making adjustments due to players not being able to participate, not really nerfing the content. Later they will nerf content by easing the restrictions as they always do. That allows new players to catch up quicker while old players continue on with new content. It does not remove the benefits of doing it before they ease the restrictions.

Thrustie never asked for an immediate reward, he said he would be upset if they increased the yield after using the system as they designed it before it even became useful. What you are saying is there is no problem if they released supra and waited until people got it, then allowed you to get it by turning in FC3 instead of MCD without actually having a use for the supra yet.

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Originally Posted by seorin

I can't speak for anyone else, but I agree that increasing yield would be a bad fix. I do want a meaningful fix, though. I'd love to see them move favors to blue scrip. Then put some of the two star crafting mats on the law vendor and we'd actually have a fairly functional system.

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Making favors blue scrips is a bad idea, it would absolutely flood the market and everyone would have every item as soon as they could gather all of the materials. Despite the fact that they currently serve no use, they are top tier equipment. The gear you get for the actual red scrips is the casual gear, not the crafted gear from the favour mats. You would not even need the items to be on a tome vendor as you can gather blue scrips as much as you want.

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

You talk like you speak on behalf of the whole community. You don't. I wanted a change to the time spent, not the yield, so get off your pedestal. It's not an argument for the sake of an argument. Your points do nothing to diminish the fact that suddenly increasing the yield 5 weeks into a progression patch where people can bank and hoard tokens would have been goofy and unfair. Your silly Miss Cleo crystal ball argument doesn't hold any water. There's people out there who probably did favors and don't even come on these forums.

You perceive that the whole crafting system is broken. I've seen your tirades in every thread for the past month. So it's no surprise that you believe any change to the system is warranted and desired. Not everyone agrees with you and your lack of empathy for anyone with an opinion differing from yours really discredits you.

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100% Agree. I see her post in every thread as if the favor system is completely broken and the only way it could be fixed is if other gatherers used their red scrips to gatherer her favor items and sell them to her for cheap.That's what she wants, but its not gonna happen.

I've been doing favors since the get go and the old system worked for me, I had pretty much full WVR set done before 3.07 and now I almost have the full LTW set done also. Im about 4 pieces away from being done and moving on to the next set. System seems to be working very fine.

@Seorin you nerf content when it is no longer thee relevant content of the game at the time. Right now, Favors and 2 Star crafts are the end game. When should this stuff be nerfed? In 3.2~3.4 When 3 star comes out and we are looking at newer accessories or full sets of gear. This is how they've always done nerfs. With raids and with gathering requirements.

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

You talk like you speak on behalf of the whole community. You don't.

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I talk as tho I got a clear understanding of many (not all) perspectives that people in our community will have on (this) topic.
I do. Because I try to understanding perspectives that arent mine.
As is outlined in my arguments. You can always read those, and see for yourself.
I never claim to speak for 100% of the community. But if I bother to make posts like those you can be damned I'll understand most of the (realistic) perspectives involved.
Which I show via my arguments.

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

I wanted a change to the time spent, not the yield, so get off your pedestal.

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My ''pedestal'' is made up by my arguments. If you don't want me to look down from on top of them, you should consider actually trying to use solid arguments yourself.
But all you can seem to do is defend a failing system (of crafting, of gathering).

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

It's not an argument for the sake of an argument.

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Yes it is, otherwise you would respond to my individual arguments, instead of responding to my posts in their entirety, and claiming I'm ''on a high horse'' and ''falsely claiming to represent the community''.

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

Your points do nothing to diminish the fact that suddenly increasing the yield 5 weeks into a progression patch where people can bank and hoard tokens would have been goofy and unfair. Your silly Miss Cleo crystal ball argument doesn't hold any water. There's people out there who probably did favors and don't even come on these forums.

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Ofcourse there are. Just as there are many more who didnt do favors and don't even come on these forums. Only a very small % of people in general use these forums.
That's no argument for your cause, or mine.

I believe they did diminish it, since it's not a ''fact'' to begin with. Remember favor grinding was a huge grind. I can confidently say that the majority of those that did favor grind before, were pretty hardcore. We have some of the most hardcore players in this game fervently arguing against gathering and crafting in its (previous)/ current state.

As someone who actually did spend my tokens, I too felt it would be fair to increase them.


Because the system needed to be changed, and im not selfish enough to screw over the rest of the community for my own selfish desires.
Or for that my matter, to screw myself over. A boost to yield would also effect my own future yields.


I mentioned this argument several times, you've yet to properly respond to it even once, why?
- If material yield is increased, then your own future yield is also increased.
You wouldnt lose out, you would gain.


Ofcourse it would have been better to increase the yield sooner. Did you perchance also read over the parts in previous posts where I said they should have made these adjustments before even letting the system go live?
I guess you did.

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

You perceive that the whole crafting system is broken.

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Yes, and apparently a whole lot of people agree with me. Everyone with enough information should, I think.

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

I've seen your tirades in every thread for the past month. So it's no surprise that you believe any change to the system is warranted and desired.

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Where did you read that? Because I would only want an actual good change. As for my tirades, I've made several constructed posts on why the systems are broken.
You are free to disagree with my conclusions, but its hard to argue with the facts I've posted in the past. (lack of recipes, poorly tuned)

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Originally Posted by Thrustie

Not everyone agrees with you and your lack of empathy for anyone with an opinion differing from yours really discredits you.

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I dont think you can discredit me. Unfortunately you dont respond to arguments, you only attack.


I have a lot of empathy for people that disagree with me. But I don't have much empathy for mules who hit walls 5 times in a row and insist there is no wall in front of them.
If you go out of your way to ''disagree'', while also avoiding responding to arguments; then yes; you wont get much empathy from me.

Because there is one kind of people I can't stand. These kind:


http://i.imgur.com/hC4GUTi.png


And to be blunt, your posts (on the topic of crafting and gathering in HW) are kind of like this.


If you want to look down on me, then earn that right. By building a mountain of solid arguments you can stand on top, and look down on me. So that you can truly say ''I do not argue, for arguments sake. Here are my arguments to blow yours away, and prove it''


Otherwise, this is as much as I'll care to properly respond to your posts.


Because your only ridiculing yourself as someone not invested into gathering or crafting by comparing things like raiding and crafting.

You keep claiming the system is failing. Your entire argument is built up on the system failing. But it hasn't failed, so your argument is completely flawed. But when people say your argument is flawed you act like you went around the different servers and did some sort of poll to prove yourself right, but you didn't. You see, you lack any evidence but are making wild claims of how bad the system is.

You have no arguments, we don't need to build arguments to tell you that yours are flawed. You present nothing valuable to the conversation except for your desire to see the system changed for the better of you and you alone, which is quite childish.

You believe that people who participated in the system before the patch should be punished and that gatherers and DoW/DoM should do all the heavily lifting so that they can rush to sell you the 2 star materials super cheap so that you don't have to do anything. It's very greedy, self centered view.

We can keep bickering about this but their not gonna nerf it for ya, you might as well enjoy what you have or quit crafting or quit the game. I don't know what else to tell you.

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Originally Posted by Aeyis

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I might have misinterpreted your post or worded mine poorly, but yes I was trying to say that by allowing more players to participate in Favor farming it would open up more potential supply on the market board. This of course assumes that the people that begin doing these will be doing it to sell and not for personal use.

To address the argument at hand, I think we can at least agree that people were dissatisfied with both the time required to obtain the materials and the yield/RNG per favor. From the stand point of trying to increase overall materials on the board I still think that reducing the time commitment is the better approach to begin with because it increases QoL for people already doing the Favors while making it more accessible to those who were deterred from it. A flat yield increase would of course increase QoL for people doing it because they'd have to do less favors or get more for the ones they already are doing, but I don't see this mattering to someone that didn't want to spend 15 mins per favor because they didn't want to spend 15 mins gathering an RNG drop. I'm not saying I wouldn't appreciate a yield increase, but for me the time was the discouraging factor more than the yields were and it's not obvious to me that a flat yield increase would outweigh the benefit of opening up more people to spending their scrips on favors.

Honestly I don't think even yield increases will change the problem with the inherently convoluted system. Gathering favors only serves to give pure crafters a way of obtaining favor materials to turn-in for the actual crafting materials, but this could've been accomplished by just having a flat exchange between RGTs and favor materials. If they insist on keeping the RNG then the favors could be a satchel that you open for a chance to drop some RNG amount of Ooids and possibly Roundstones of the appropriate zone.

The other thing is they have alienated so much of the player base from participating in the economy by designing it this way. In 2.x you had Tomes which allowed anyone with a max level combat class to sell materials on the marketboard. Ehcatl Sealants allowed anyone that had a level 1 DoH/DoL class and rep capped Ixali to make pretty easy money. With Red Scrips you need a max level gatherer that is at least geared in the blue scrip gear and has a HQ crafted MH/OH and at least 2.x melded accessories. At this point the only way to get the non-crafter/gathers into the system is to have materials that are purchased via Law tomes and I do not see a way of doing that works with the current design.

I don't understand why they removed DoW/DoM from the economy in the manner they did, while at the same time giving us i180 DoW/DoM recipes.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

To address the argument at hand, I think we can at least agree that people were dissatisfied with both the time required to obtain the materials and the yield/RNG per favor. From the stand point of trying to increase overall materials on the board I still think that reducing the time commitment is the better approach to begin with because it increases QoL for people already doing the Favors while making it more accessible to those who were deterred from it. A flat yield increase would of course increase QoL for people doing it because they'd have to do less favors or get more for the ones they already are doing, but I don't see this mattering to someone that didn't want to spend 15 mins per favor because they didn't want to spend 15 mins gathering an RNG drop.

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Personally I think a larger yield would be better.. Altho a smaller farming time does make them easier to obtain, it also makes them a bit (more) stressful.

Favors are not fun to do, as you have to hurry from node to node, and you cannot even stop to reply a quick message to a FC or linkshell chat. With a larger yield it wouldnt matter so much anymore if you did stop to type something in chat.

In that sense by ''larger yield'' you could compare it to say, the current favor system but with double the red scrips weekly cap.
Time investment would still be needed, but you wouldnt feel too stressed doing them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

I'm not saying I wouldn't appreciate a yield increase, but for me the time was the discouraging factor more than the yields were and it's not obvious to me that a flat yield increase would outweigh the benefit of opening up more people to spending their scrips on favors.

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For me as well, but only partly. I also had to look ahead and realise that the supply of favor materials I could obtain were not enough. Ultimately if its 4 hours or 11 doesnt matter much to be if you can't obtain the materials needed.

I agree that having them spawn faster rather then a larger yield does seem to improve morale when doing them. It's a much better feeling when they spawn after a few nodes, and can spawn back to back; compared to going 10-15 minutes without on a bad streak.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

Honestly I don't think even yield increases will change the problem with the inherently convoluted system. Gathering favors only serves to give pure crafters a way of obtaining favor materials to turn-in for the actual crafting materials, but this could've been accomplished by just having a flat exchange between RGTs and favor materials. If they insist on keeping the RNG then the favors could be a satchel that you open for a chance to drop some RNG amount of Ooids and possibly Roundstones of the appropriate zone.

The other thing is they have alienated so much of the player base from participating in the economy by designing it this way. In 2.x you had Tomes which allowed anyone with a max level combat class to sell materials on the marketboard. Ehcatl Sealants allowed anyone that had a level 1 DoH/DoL class to make pretty easy money. With Red Scrips you need a max level gatherer that is at least geared in the blue scrip gear and has a hq crafted MH/OH and at least 2.x melded accessories.

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That is my sentiment as well. That is also my main argument on this topic. There's no question that the favor buff makes it easier to obtain favors. And likely increases their market supply as a result.

But the system of crafting and gathering combined (specially 2*, red scrips) has too many redundant steps and odd tuning.


It strikes me every time I go to look at the latest material updates on the mb, and I have to look for 5 refined materials, 5 crafting turn ins and 20 favor materials.
6 items just for one type of crafted item. On top of that there's red scrips, and the tokens as well.


It's all just so..awkwardly designed. Gathering has it a bit better then crafting, but even then..


As far the material limit goes: as I mentioned before a lot of people have tomes tokens saved up so I don't expect many people to complain about the system right after the favor buff. When you have 5 weeks worth of red scrips the cap doesnt seem like an issue. But after they run out, or new people start doing red scrips I think they (crafters, as it doesnt effect pure gatherers much) will soon realise that getting favor materials faster does not help as much as it seemed to at the start (of the buff).