Unjust Kicking from Alexander T4

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

If you want to establish and set your own standards for the group, that is what Party Finder is for.

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This exact same statement (by you) can be used towards those wanting to "learn by doing" and refuse to research.

In fact, the Party Finder has a specific setting called "Learning party", so that implies that those unwilling to research should be the ones using the Party Finder.


It's common courtesy and good manners to at least know what the fight mechanics are before using DF. No one is suggesting you have to be "Pro" or anything like that. Just cursory knowledge of the mechanics... you don't even have to watch a video.

People who treat people new to the instance disgust me, How can you be so ignorant to not help out a new player and SAVE yourself from a wipe how hard is it to just type a brief explanation instead of going in head first without explaining then wiping and having to start the fight again, People seem to be afraid to talk to one another these days incase they get their head bitten off.

In any case I dont even think it's hard to even create a macro to use incase anyone is New in a dungeon and just click it to explain, I especially as a tank HATE it when I get silent groups as it's purely ignorant especially when the only word people can say in a dungeon is "Go" aaaaaaarrrrrggggghh it makes me so angry, People just TALK to each other this is a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE Experience not a Single player game!

Might be worth noting that NA (where SDaemon's data center is) and Japan (Where Kaedan's is) have very different uses of DF and PF.

On Aether and, as far as I know, the other NA data centers, it's considered polite/normal to go into DF a few times on content to learn it before starting a PF party. The idea being that a random DF group isn't going to be able to clear hard content anyway so you DF it expecting to fail just to kind of get your sea legs, then a proper learning/clear party.

On Elemental and, as far as I know, the other JP data centers, it's considered polite/normal to make learning parties and learn the entire fight as best as you can before DFing it, with the idea that if everyone knows the fight from party finder, you can DF to win, and you don't inconvenience strangers with your incompetence.

Doing blind learning PFs on things that have dropped into DF on Aether is considered rude, and it's 'common courtesy' to at least know the fight mechanics before joining a PF group.

It's different data center cultures. No reason to fight each other over it.

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

People who treat people new to the instance disgust me, How can you be so ignorant to not help out a new player and SAVE yourself from a wipe how hard is it to just type a brief explanation instead of going in head first without explaining then wiping and having to start the fight again, People seem to be afraid to talk to one another these days incase they get their head bitten off.

In any case I dont even think it's hard to even create a macro to use incase anyone is New in a dungeon and just click it to explain, I especially as a tank HATE it when I get silent groups as it's purely ignorant especially when the only word people can say in a dungeon is "Go" aaaaaaarrrrrggggghh it makes me so angry, People just TALK to each other this is a MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER ONLINE Experience not a Single player game!

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I can't speak for others, but I will always explain things to new players. Even if someone hasn't researched it, but has the common courtesy to say they're new, then I'll explain with no complaints. The issue is, the vast majority of new players refuse to say they're new so I don't know I have to explain... then they get us wiped, wasting all the time up until that point.

I still think people should have the decency to at least look up the mechanics before they go into a (potentially) difficult instance such as A4 or the Extremes.

I've noticed some of the "watch a video"/"read a guide" crowd aren't accounting for varrying strategies that different groups use. I've been in more than one instance where I fumble around at first (even after watching the video---twice) because there was a special strategy that wasn't written anywhere or disclosed until I ran said content and would be yelled at for not getting with the program. Does it happen often? Not enough to be a huge issue. It does happen enough to mention.

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Originally Posted by Krylo

Doing blind learning PFs on things that have dropped into DF on Aether is considered rude, and it's 'common courtesy' to at least know the fight mechanics before joining a PF group.

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Being on Aether I don't know where you got this idea that doing learning PF is considered rude... learning is learning after all.
Learning party - for learning, no expectations
Practice party - for practicing, you're expected to have learned already
Clear party - for clearing, you have enough practice but have had bad luck with others in learning and practice parties...
Farm party - does it need any explanation?

You can't expect people to be happy that there's a player wanting to do a blind run, but at the same time you can't expect people to know the fight. That's pretty much DF, you'll get randomly put into a party with people that may have a differing opinions about the use of DF than you.
After all, it's not like any side is wrong in this. People wanting a blind run, because they enjoy doing content this way? Sure, makes sense. People wanting a fast clear, since they might need to do the same thing who knows how many times? Hard to blame them. Don't be surprised though if 7 people in df are experienced and they won't be patient with that 1 person who has no idea about the fight.

If someone truly dislikes parties that they can end up in then the only solution is to not use DF and to actually create/join a party fitting their preferences through PF or just fc/ls. Especially if the content is new, there should more than enough people on (most) servers to fill every kind of party.

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

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Well, when learning t9, for instance, the idea was you'd DF it to learn first phase + golems. Could get to heavensfall in a DF group after a couple tries usually, but you weren't going to expect anyone to put in the time or organization to get fire in/fire out learned well enough to even see dive bombs. Once you had the first two phases figured out for yourself, mostly, you'd make a learning party to learn the last phase. If you didn't know the first two you could easily be kicked out of learning parties who weren't interested in wiping to comets and golems a bunch AGAIN.

I'd imagine it'll be the same for BisEx when it drops to DF, eventually. With learning parties wanting to learn the weather patterns, not deal with people who can't DPS through the adds. Although by the time BisEx hits DF people might be geared enough that the DPS checks are of no real consequence, at which point it'll be easy enough to just beat in DF.

For most content learning anything in DF isn't necessary, though.

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Originally Posted by Jin-

Dungeons are supposed to be learned by playing them, wiping, learning by mistake, improving etc...

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That 'etc.' should include "Not on Duty Finder".

It is common courtesy to help new players as well. Not everyone can learn from a youtube video. I've watched plenty of videos on a fight..and failed horribly. Then someone explains and and I'm doing much better. People need to stop assuming that a youtube video is the silver bullet.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

It is common courtesy to help new players as well. Not everyone can learn from a youtube video. I've watched plenty of videos on a fight..and failed horribly. Then someone explains and and I'm doing much better. People need to stop assuming that a youtube video is the silver bullet.

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We have 2 excellent video guide makers.

MTQCapture and MrHappy.

MTQCapture's videos are quick and to the point, may miss some things.

MrHappy's videos are generally long and detailed, as detailed as any explanation can be.

There is really no excuse to go in expecting to be told mechanics. Why hold the group up when you can watch a video like MrHappy's over and over until you have a decent understanding of what you can get without experience?

Never have I been in a dungeon where an explanation from a player has been as organized and detailed as MrHappy's video guides.

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Originally Posted by Seoulstar

It is common courtesy to help new players as well. Not everyone can learn from a youtube video. I've watched plenty of videos on a fight..and failed horribly. Then someone explains and and I'm doing much better. People need to stop assuming that a youtube video is the silver bullet.

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Though its not wrong what you said and I somewhat support you in what you said. How come that some people join a bossfight and just think that other players have to explain the whole thing. Just because they didnt want to read/watch about the Instance?

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Originally Posted by Nekodar

Judging by things, you were kicked unjustly in this case as they didn't explain enough to you.

But, when going into something that is not brand new, do you think the veterans should always explain everything?

You have other choices like a PF for learning, or watching a video explaining the fight, or reading a guide...

It doesn't take much for a veteran to explain the basics, but they do get tired of having to do that explanation over and over when it should be more about assigning roles and beating it.

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Not brand new lollllllll yes since 2 weeks old is not new at all and everyone needs to be a vet by the time less then 2 weeks rolls around yea? jeez all i can say is ppl need to chill out and if you expect ppl to watch vids and know every lil thing make your own party

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Originally Posted by Gamer3427

I'm mad that they kicked me after a single wipe because I didn't know all the mechanics beforehand, and misleading information was given in the run itself

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I think they kicked you because you were a machinist >.> ...(ducks head as i run out of the room) lol

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Originally Posted by Adire

We have 2 excellent video guide makers.

MTQCapture

MTQCapture's videos are quick and to the point, may miss some things.

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I love her and want to make her my salt wife... <3 MTQCapture

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Originally Posted by Elim

I agree that the kick was unjust. You made the mistake once. Not over and over. Plus you were new.

However, they're not obligated to type out all the mechanics for you (a random pug), just like you're not obligated to know the mechanics. It bugs me when newbies rage at vets for not holding their hands. I know you didn't rage - I'm just saying that it's a pet peeve of mine when it does happen.

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It's just a matter of common courtesy and manners isn't it. In the interests of entertainment, fun and being sociable. Surely people don't only do things unless they fell themselves obliged to.

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Originally Posted by 3Jane

It's just a matter of common courtesy and manners isn't it. In the interests of entertainment, fun and being sociable. Surely people don't only do things unless they fell themselves obliged to.

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Not sure which side you're referring to. You can apply that argument to both. You could say, "It's common courtesy to watch a video or read a guide so you don't hold up seven people. You're not a special snowflake. This is a social game and you have to think about other people, not just yourself." or "It's common courtesy to teach new players. This is a social game and you have to think about other people, not just yourself."

Neither are common courtesy, nor do they have anything to do with manners. IMO. It's entirely based on how someone wants to play the game/spend their free time.

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Originally Posted by Jin-

FFXIV was the first MMORPG where i saw things like this:

- Did you watch Youtube videos before entering the dungeon
- Did you watch the guides before entering the dungeon

If you response, no i did not? Then you are noob and bad player.

This is strange community. Dungeons are supposed to be learned by playing them, wiping, learning by mistake, improving etc... And not how some elitists want that people should watch some videos lol :).

This was in Ultimate Ballad. Easily learned after couple of wipes.

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Sorry to inform you but this is common through all mmos now...BUT i as a tank don't watch videos. If they rage i just think "elitist scumbags..." and twiddle my tumbs. As a Tank i will find another Group soon. The Fights are explained with a few Words if they are too lazy for that they should stop playing MMO's altogether. It's always about Teamwork and not "hooo my slaves go and do by my bidding....I AM YOUR GOD THE MIGHTY GOA'ULD"......wait wrong world

I don't actually know how to start this reply nor do I often post on here. So i shall start by saying that everything here will be my opinion and should only be viewed as one persons view of the current state of the game.

It appears to me as time goes on that the community especially end game is getting increasingly more toxic.

Exhibit A: This thread was created about a group that kicked someone for simply making a mistake and bothering to ask for clarification from what he was originally told about the fight.

We have people going back and forth between "watch a video" or "read a guide", as well as people saying that they wish to simply enjoy the game and learn from it the way that every group that creates these "Guides" has actually done themselves. We watch guides yet only see the win that they achieved and not the countless times they have wiped learning that fight. Then to make it worse it becomes assumed that everyone else who has watched that video must be able to replicate what they saw and avoid all mechanics within just a small couple of attempts.

The justification people use for being rude is "don't waste our time". I would beg to differ that by playing FFXIV you are currently "wasting your time" due to the fact you are currently using extra time you have outside of real life duties to be playing said game.

This toxicity even stems into party finder where we ask people to go to learn. often getting learning groups who disband after a few failed attempts or get someone who rage quits. You also have the groups that want to clear yet refuse to accept any mistakes with aggressive comments such as "will kick if your bad" or "don't make mistakes". We are humans and we are an imperfect species.

Yet we treat each other like dirt and demand everyone to be perfect. the sad thing is it wont ever end, everyone is entitled to their opinions and ideals. we just often suffer from it.

Thank for taking the time to read this if you did. again its just my opinion and I know mine are often not shared with others.

Okay so this all drama is going on because everyone here expect that whenever and to whoever they ask something said person should bend to their will and do the work of explaining for them while some people made guide on the net exactly for those reasons?

MTQ videos are very short and and usually very well made and straight to the point, and just by watching them I, a person that rarely ever do raid, was able to clear Alex in an hour or two without any problems or causing a wipe. No the video won't teach you everything about it, but it should be enough for you to go in the instance knowing what to expect.

I'm usually a very nice player, the usual 'switch to whm and wait a few minutes to raise a random player' type of player, and as I've said I'm the one to always explain instances to new people when they ask, but I've had my fair share of teaching the two first phases of T5 for months when I needed my clear that to me if you didn't take the time to watch/read a guide then I'm not going to take 10min of my time babbling about a raid that I probably don't know by heart, or not even the mobs/abilities's names. You came in an instance knowing it will be difficult and didn't look it up then to me you didn't wanted to know how it goes.

That's great that you are all for helping, but don't go starting a witch hunt because one person couldn't/wouldn't explain one raid content to someone who was too lazy to read a guide and yet ask what they have to do. I'm not going to start feeling bad because people here decided to insult anyone that won't agree to type a full resume of a 15min fight with multiple mechanisms.

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The justification people use for being rude is "don't waste our time". I would beg to differ that by playing FFXIV you are currently "wasting your time" due to the fact you are currently using extra time you have outside of real life duties to be playing said game.

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I personally really dislike when people say this, considering that it means that everything we do is a waste of time in the end. Doing something that you enjoy? gee what a waste of time.

in a t4 if any dps stays on leg that dps needs to be kicked, all dps needs to take out adds just like in a t1.

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Originally Posted by Alysanne

I've actually had people say "you expected to clear this in DF?" Why can't I expect to actually have a chance at winning when I use the duty finder?

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Because you can't filter out the inexperienced players like you said. There's no rule saying a new person can't queue for T13 and the chances of getting a full party who know the fight 100% are going to be much slimmer than getting a new person.

There was a comment posted several months ago about how the community base was in this game compared to other mmo's. This was the reply. "Final Fantasy XIV Online has one of the most toxic community I have ever seen in a MMO" I don't know about you guys but that's really a disturbing review. I've read that comment on several reviews for this game. Will do some digging to find the the source, but the fact that the comment was even made is disturbing.

Also, not everyone finds videos and guides helpful. They personally confuse me like crazy. I can't remember each mechanic and in what order ect. I learn much better by figuring it out for myself and actually experiencing the fight.

Before anyone says anything too, I've cleared Fcob with my static and most of us didn't watch a guide.

I think people need to lose the elitist attitude period when it comes to any aspect of the game. Remember that at one point you were new to the game, the fight, or the class you play. Would you treat someone in real life the way you do in game? If not, think about it. I would rather have a person ask about the mechanics than to remain silent and mess up repeatedly for the whole group. Be courteous to one another. We are all people. One day you might have to ask them for advice.

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Originally Posted by Melondra

There was a comment posted several months ago about how the community base was in this game compared to other mmo's. This was the reply. "Final Fantasy XIV Online has one of the most toxic community I have ever seen in a MMO" I don't know about you guys but that's really a disturbing review. I've read that comment on several reviews for this game. Will do some digging to find the the source, but the fact that the comment was even made is disturbing.

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The community here has degraded expedientially since 2.0, I believe I read it in another post that the mechanics of this game draw these sorts of people to this type of game with its vertical progression and do it quick syndrome which in turn causes to people not to work to gether but see other's as a liability and if you are not worth their time they don't want to know you at all.

Social in most mmo's is dead nowadays due to this.

Hey Kath was on Ragnarok during Alpha-1/Beta-4

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Originally Posted by Kathryn

The community here has degraded expedientially since 2.0, I believe I read it in another post that the mechanics of this game draw these sorts of people to this type of game with its vertical progression and do it quick syndrome which in turn causes to people not to work to gether but see other's as a liability and if you are not worth their time they don't want to know you at all.

Social in most mmo's is dead nowadays due to this.

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Honestly, this is one of the better communities I have experienced in MMOs. I have been part of WoW, Guild Wars 2, Aion, ESO, and even Everquest when it was relevant. It comes down to the community to control how people act with an MMO. If being a douche is not tolerated, people will not act like that for fear of being shunned. If you see an individual being rude, call them out on it. Let them know it isn't tolerated and it would only take a few times of being removed from something for them to correct themselves.

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Originally Posted by Melondra

Hey Kath was on Ragnarok during Alpha-1/Beta-4

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Yeah been here since the beginning 1.0 was Ridil which then we got moved to Ragnarok can't remember if that was during the transition of 1.0 & 2.0 or not but been in FFXIV since the very beginning 5 year's now and finally losing the will to go on as the game's lost it's magic to me, my fc and husband are the only reason I really log in anymore.

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Originally Posted by Melondra

There was a comment posted several months ago about how the community base was in this game compared to other mmo's. This was the reply. "Final Fantasy XIV Online has one of the most toxic community I have ever seen in a MMO" I don't know about you guys but that's really a disturbing review. I've read that comment on several reviews for this game. Will do some digging to find the the source, but the fact that the comment was even made is disturbing.

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I'd say it's a toss-up between this and what Wildstar was like before it went F2P. If you disagree with anybody or any aspect of the game, you will be asked/told to quit and not return while people who know nothing about you other than a single opinion you hold about a video game insult every facet of your existence.

See: Bard Threads, Male/Female Crossdressing threads, Alexander threads, MSQ threads, etc.

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Originally Posted by gzuscry

DF even prioritizies new players, votekickin for not knowing a guide should actualy be grounds for legal action if someone had the guts to spill some money on vanity law case -_-. Still if the very code puts new players in ppl parties that cleared them together, then SE is obligated by their own doing to defend every single kicked player for going in the fight blind in DF. Im sure there are some laws that will solidify those arguments.

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You can report it to a GM. The thing is, unless someone is abusive to you (i.e. shouting profanity at you in chat before they kick you, etc), then it's most likely going to get chalked up to 'differing playstyles'. As far as real world legal action, most gaming companies have a liability clause in their ToS that prevents you from suing them for something like that. There's usually pretty strict limitations on the kinds of things you can seek arbitration for.

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11.3 User Disputes. You shall be solely responsible for resolving any and all disputes that may arise between you and other Users in connection with the Game, and for paying any and all expenses incurred by you in connection with resolving such dispute. Square Enix shall not be responsible for mediating or resolving any such disputes and shall have no liability to you or to any third party for any costs, fees, expenses, damages or other losses incurred in connection with or as a result of any such disputes.

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I mean, I guess you could try but you'd basically just be throwing money at your lawyer.

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Originally Posted by Melondra

There was a comment posted several months ago about how the community base was in this game compared to other mmo's. This was the reply. "Final Fantasy XIV Online has one of the most toxic community I have ever seen in a MMO" I don't know about you guys but that's really a disturbing review. I've read that comment on several reviews for this game. Will do some digging to find the the source, but the fact that the comment was even made is disturbing.

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I don't really find it disturbing since we know nothing about the source. For all we know, it was just some butthurt player that got banned. Anyone can go out on the internet and post a negative review, and there's no telling what the actual truth behind it is. This community is far from the most toxic I've ever seen; we're a bunch of care bears compared to people in some of the other games I've played. PvP heavy games tend to have very toxic communities. So do games where there's a lot of class imbalance (we're getting a taste of this now, but it's not nearly as bad as it could be). FFXIV's community is actually pretty decent overall.

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Originally Posted by WinterLuna

Also, not everyone finds videos and guides helpful. They personally confuse me like crazy. I can't remember each mechanic and in what order ect. I learn much better by figuring it out for myself and actually experiencing the fight.

Before anyone says anything too, I've cleared Fcob with my static and most of us didn't watch a guide.

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I don't learn well from video guides myself, but I find that they at least give me a general idea of what to look for even if everything doesn't soak in at first. I at least know what the basic mechanics are called and how they work.

The way i see it. There are a lot of grey areas with this situation.

Leveling dungeons. It is understandable to expect to go in blind and expect a 2 second explanation of the only mechanics.

This is a raid. This is content designed to require more coordination among the group. After a day, explanations are all over the internet and not looking it up beforehand is simply lazy and disrespectful of others. You are not entitled to an explanation. It is not your parties job to paste the guide into chat for you.

You are going into a group situation. Other people will be counting on you to do your part. Knowing as much beforehand is the decent thing to do. People don't hate first timers. They hate lazy people expecting to be carried. Hopefully, though doubtful, you learned your lesson and next time you join an 8 man raid situation, you can say "This is my first time, I have the general idea by guides, is there anything extra I may need to know"

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Originally Posted by Melondra

There was a comment posted several months ago about how the community base was in this game compared to other mmo's. This was the reply. "Final Fantasy XIV Online has one of the most toxic community I have ever seen in a MMO"

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Seems like it is more common in US/EU servers than in Japan servers. They would wipe 2-3 times or more before doing vote disband. Often someone will start typing direction - or "shaming" the bad player(s) - that usually does the trick. They learn a bit quicker over there, I mean this is not always the case, bad players in every countries. But in general, most players there do Party Finder to learn, and when you join DF, you are expected to KNOW the fight already, or at least read guide, or worse comes to worse, quick learner.

I usually explain things to new people when going into a dungeon/raid I'm familiar with. I just see it as a courtesy.

However, I do watch a video guide before each fight without being prompted to since I get a little paranoid at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Jatoi

I usually explain things to new people when going into a dungeon/raid I'm familiar with. I just see it as a courtesy.

However, I do watch a video guide before each fight without being prompted to since I get a little paranoid at the same time.

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But the difference here is dungeon. Not raid. 8 mans are more complicated by design. People should not be expected to teach them every time.

As for the people who don't learn by youtube videos. There are also written guides out there. Since you are going into the fights and expecting someone to type a guide for you, you have no excuse not to use them.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Alexander+guides+ff14

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Originally Posted by Edewen

But the difference here is dungeon. Not raid. 8 mans are more complicated by design. People should not be expected to teach them every time.

As for the people who don't learn by youtube videos. There are also written guides out there. Since you are going into the fights and expecting someone to type a guide for you, you have no excuse not to use them.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Alexander+guides+ff14

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True, but I expect a less successful run on a raid in DF simply because at least with PF you can state a requirement ( either looking for experienced players or form a learning party ) with far less hassle. Hence why I prefer to either use PF or go with my FC.

As a result I don't really hold any expectations for the DF and explain anyway.

I had a scholar first timer as a co-healer in A4 today, which he immediatly stated. I was expecting the tank to wait a couple of seconds before the pull to let us (or ask himself) whether the scholar knew anything about the fight. Hell no. He pulled immediatly. The scholar was doing a great job all along, taking a few orbs and all, and just before we reached last phase, I found some seconds to type "Stay away from everybody else", which he understood quickly and ran to the outside. But as the fight had been pulled so quickly, I didn't have time or anybody else to explain the debuff in last phase, and he didn't survive. I found myself solo-healing to the last mob's ~35% at which point we wiped as I completely ran OoM.

Honestly, I don't have such a good partner as a healer everyday, especially when it's theirs first time. And I was really confident we'd kill it on second try, with just a few more tips given to him.
And then pops the votekick window.., kicking one of the most intuitive and good healer I had ever seen.
Simply told them "what do you think you 're doing, kicking a good healer just because he's new ?" and I left too - ON STRIKE.

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Originally Posted by cgbspender

And then pops the votekick window.., kicking one of the most intuitive and good healer I had ever seen.
Simply told them "what do you think you 're doing, kicking a good healer just because he's new ?" and I left too - ON STRIKE.

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Exception to the rule though. Sure there area few people who will simply be amazing. And based on his performance, it is clear he did at least some background research on the fight beforehand. I would have left with you.

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Originally Posted by Edewen

But the difference here is dungeon. Not raid. 8 mans are more complicated by design. People should not be expected to teach them every time.

As for the people who don't learn by youtube videos. There are also written guides out there. Since you are going into the fights and expecting someone to type a guide for you, you have no excuse not to use them.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Alexander+guides+ff14

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Some ppl like to go in blind and some ppl just learn better from doing it them self anyone can read about something sure. But to actually perform well that's a different story it's like football you see and hear the plan but then doing the play won't always work 100% that's life

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Originally Posted by SakuraMidori

Some ppl like to go in blind and some ppl just learn better from doing it them self anyone can read about something sure. But to actually perform well that's a different story it's like football you see and hear the plan but then doing the play won't always work 100% that's life

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Nothing but a poor excuse to be unprepared and to inflict that on strangers. Preparation is never a bad thing. But feel free to make a party finder instead.