Bard and Wanderer's Minuet use it

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

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That ease of access comes at a price, yes. But that price is not justification for everyone to be as selfish as they want. That price is you may meet people you don't like, you may get people who aren't skilled, etc. That price is not "Other people have the right to impose their playstyle onto you and 2 others and you have no right to say anything".

You don't see this sort of toxic thinking on JP servers from what I've heard. People there generally try to contribute, even if they have to do some things they don't like with their job, for the good of the group they're spending their time with. They don't think "me me me, forget the group"

If you want to sabotage your group, maybe you should be the one to try and get a group who likes the idea on PF, because I guarantee you: More people will prefer a bard doing their best and using WM, or at least trying to use it correctly, over one who refuses to because they don't like it and sabotages the group.

If you're going into a dungeon thinking, "I don't like this skill so I'm not using it", you're in the wrong. Think for a moment how that would turn out if every player did this with every job. Please don't advocate intentional group sabotage, and please don't try to advocate censorship of people who have problems with this.

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Originally Posted by RamzaRuglia

Actually, you CAN still move and shoot with WM, because not all the skills need the charge time.

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/sigh

Yes, that's true. You can certainly still shoot while moving with certain skills or procs. It's the fact you indicated "We did not lose a single iota of mobility.", implying you did not lose a single bit of ability to DPS while moving. In other words, you're implying you would be able to Heavy Shot, Straight Shot, WB/VB, EA, etc while moving with WM... as that was how BRD would have functioned before. To not lose anything, means it remained COMPLETELY the same, which clearly it did not. Proper word use or statement correction avoids these pointless arguments.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

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Nope I would not consider that as trying. With that being said, WM is a huge change to the core of the class that many bards love. It would be selfish of me, to try and control how they enjoy the class in a queue system. Being selfish works both ways in this debate. They are helping you fight a dungeon, it is just not how you like them to play. Reason I say this is because I am understanding. I think it is sad that a few mins longer in a dungeon would make people upset and call others griefing

At the end of the day, the raid or dungeon will get done. That is all that matters, and if it does not well that is fine also. Always next time.

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

At the end of the day, the raid or dungeon will get done. That is all that matters, and if it does not well that is fine also. Always next time.

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Dungeon yes, raid either no or you're getting carried. dps role in raids is to maximize their dps, and the mechanics are designed around that; failure to do so will wipe the group. How much raid experience do you have, exactly?

Being selfish doesn't really work both ways in this conversation. One side is already doing their job to the best of their ability, one side is not. Asking the latter side to meet somewhere in the middle is not selfish. Nor is completion all that necessarily matters; different people have different priorities. Just because completion is generally the more important of those priorities, doesn't mean that everything else has null value. Just generally speaking, not even limited to gaming, stuff is very rarely of some absolute binary value.

Edit: Nevermind, looked it up. You have absolutely no raid experience.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

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Yeah...I don't see how asking a bard to use WM and stand still for at least when their buffs are up is asking too much, but hey, whatever! Maybe we should all just start auto attacking and not using our skills we don't like :) I mean we'd all still be helping some, right? About 200% less, but still helping!

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Originally Posted by Adire

Yeah...I don't see how asking a bard to use WM and stand still for at least when their buffs are up is asking too much, but hey, whatever! Maybe we should all just start auto attacking and using our skills we don't like :) I mean we'd all still be helping some, right? About 200% less, but still helping!

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yeah lol, I think I went into a coma for a few seconds when she said that spamming blizzard3 was not only okay, but immune to criticism. Oh well, as her husband loves to say, common sense is not so common ;)

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

Nope I would not consider that as trying. With that being said, WM is a huge change to the core of the class that many bards love. It would be selfish of me, to try and control how they enjoy the class in a queue system. Being selfish works both ways in this debate. They are helping you fight a dungeon, it is just not how you like them to play. Reason I say this is because I am understanding. I think it is sad that a few mins longer in a dungeon would make people upset and call others griefing

At the end of the day, the raid or dungeon will get done. That is all that matters, and if it does not well that is fine also. Always next time.

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Look, WM is indeed a very huge change to the freedom of mobility that BRD had over other jobs, not to mention that it was basically a somewhat subpar melee doing their job at range (due to quick succession of damage output and no cast time). That's idiotically debated for one reason or another.

The point that the guy is trying to make is that in certain uncommon situations, that being mostly progression related top tier raid content or severe DPS/performance checks elsewhere, you'd need to conform to push your potential output to needed levels. Even in content that isn't the max, you will likely come across people that aren't very geared or aren't playing very well. Intentionally subjecting your group to wipes because DPS failed to do something in time is selfish or sabotage-like. I mean it's bad enough the other person isn't doing well, but if you know for a fact that you can do better, and its needed... you should.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

yeah lol, I think I went into a coma for a few seconds when she said that spamming blizzard3 was not only okay, but immune to criticism. Oh well, as her husband loves to say, common sense is not so common ;)

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Ya, I think we will never see eye to eye. and no point going in a circle about it. Respect is all in the eye of the beholder. Telling a bard to use a skill he does not want to do so it saves you some time is just silly. Even in raids, it is a group control thing, if the bard is holding the raid back, by all means kick him. I will still stand behind my statement not a person who uses the queue system has a right to tell others how to play.

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

Ya, I think we will never see eye to eye. and no point going in a circle about it.

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Well we can agree on that much at least.

I will say, though, if you ever try your hand at raiding and start feeling wrongfully antagonized (and trust me, you will), maybe give what I've said some more thought. There's a time and place for doing whatever you want, and when people are counting on you is not it.

Meh I have mixed feelings about this. But at the very least change the animation and sound.

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Originally Posted by Jadedsins

Ya, I think we will never see eye to eye. and no point going in a circle about it. Respect is all in the eye of the beholder. Telling a bard to use a skill he does not want to do so it saves you some time is just silly. Even in raids, it is a group control thing, if the bard is holding the raid back, by all means kick him. I will still stand behind my statement not a person who uses the queue system has a right to tell others how to play.

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I'm going to try something similar next time I do an 8 man on my WHM. I like to play DPS, so when I flag up in DF, I'm going to only DPS on my healer job. If people want to be selfish and tell me to keep the group alive, they'll have to deal with it. I'll play the job how I want to play the job.

It's all about MY playstyle and not maximizing the GROUP.

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Originally Posted by AnaviAnael

I'm going to try something similar next time I do an 8 man on my WHM. I like to play DPS, so when I flag up in DF, I'm going to only DPS on my healer job. If people want to be selfish and tell me to keep the group alive, they'll have to deal with it. I'll play the job how I want to play the job.

It's all about MY playstyle and not maximizing the GROUP.

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Okay, that's just way too far.

If someone refuses to not use WM in a dungeon, leave them be. Honestly, sick and tired of all the Bard crying, just leave them be and it'll sort itself out.
If someone refuses to not use WM in a RAID SETTING, then you have a problem.

Not playing your job correctly in a Raid setting is stupid.


just noticed you were just jk, excuse me. >_>;.

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Originally Posted by SakuraMidori

If your not going to use the song why roll the class anymore?

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Exactly. I don't understand all the fuss about WM. I really like it and I don't think it is as much of an issue as people are making it out to be. BRD is a SUPPORT class. We SHOULD NOT be expected to do as much DPS as a MNK or DRG. WM improves our damage. If we use it by itself we get 30% increase in DMG and, yes, it takes away the auto attack. Big deal. Just use Barrage + Empyreal Arrow. I'm not a very high DPSing BRD and with that combo I will typically do almost 2700 DMG. Plus, even though we now have a cast timer, it only lasts for about a second and if you are hitting your attacks every 2.5 seconds, the cast timer doesn't make a difference. By the time you are done casting, your abilities are ready to be used again.

I do, however, agree with those of you who are saying there are times to use it and times to not use it. When you are in a boss fight where there are a ton of mechanics and dodging, it is probably best not to use it. UNLESS there is a 20 second space of time where the mechanics are gone and you can stand still long enough to cast WM then Barrage + Empyreal Arrow. I say 20 seconds because WM now has a recast of 15 secs so you are stuck with it on for at least that long if you put it on. It's not like Cleric Stance anymore, unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

I won't use it, if groups kick me out for not doing it. I won't cry, or be upset. I will boycott any badly design changes to a class I like.

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You people are so dramatic.

Personally, I would like animation locks back.

Rename the "cast bar" to "Precision Bar", "Aim Bar" or "Charge Bar", and there ya go.

What amuses me so is that the playstyle hasn't changed. In most fights, BRDs stand still unless they have to move due to ground AoE. Granted, you could continue to attack while moving from the ground AoE, but WM gives you the trade off that you do more damage. The trade off before was less damage because you could move and attack. WM just gives you the opposite choice now too.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

BRD doesn't play like BLM and people who think it does, don't play BLMs.

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Quoted for damn truth. I main BLM (and I have my complaints towards Enochian and Blizzard IV) and after giving BRD a shot, it's... not even comparable to BLM in regards to cast time. BRD 'cast' times are incredibly short and allow you to dodge 'til the last second. BLM does not allow this (either you move just as the cast finishes so you cast and move, or you interrupt your spell. Unpopular choice is taking the AoE hit). Even with Wanderer's Minuet on, a BRD still has more mobility than a BLM with Ley Lines.

There is a very similar debate on the healer forums that's been going on for ages. Should healers do dps when they have nothing to heal? Some say no, not if they don't like it because that's not what thy signed up for. Some say yes, to maximize group efficiency and to utilize the whole toolkit of the class. Now lets look at the argument used for the case of WM (not directed at you specifically Adire, just using your post as an example):

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Originally Posted by Adire

If you want to sabotage your group, maybe you should be the one to try and get a group who likes the idea on PF, because I guarantee you: More people will prefer a bard doing their best and using WM, or at least trying to use it correctly, over one who refuses to because they don't like it and sabotages the group.

If you're going into a dungeon thinking, "I don't like this skill so I'm not using it", you're in the wrong. Think for a moment how that would turn out if every player did this with every job. Please don't advocate intentional group sabotage, and please don't try to advocate censorship of people who have problems with this.

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One little change and we get:

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Originally Posted by Adire

If you want to sabotage your group, maybe you should be the one to try and get a group who likes the idea on PF, because I guarantee you: More people will prefer a healer doing their best and using dps skills when there's nothing to heal, or at least trying to use them correctly, over one who refuses to because they don't like it and sabotages the group.

If you're going into a dungeon thinking, "I don't like this skill so I'm not using it", you're in the wrong. Think for a moment how that would turn out if every player did this with every job. Please don't advocate intentional group sabotage, and please don't try to advocate censorship of people who have problems with this.

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Now you might say, it's a totally different thing because a bard is dps and a healer is a healer. According to Yoshi-P however, bard is actually support: "As for the machinist, its role is similar to that of the Bard that is, support for team members. So compared to a pure DPS as a monk or a ninja course DPS machinist will be lower because their roles are different."

You heard it. Bard's role is different from a pure dps, so requiring them to maximize their dps while supporting is the same thing as requiring a healer to maximize their dps while keeping everyone alive. I wonder if anyone of you complaining about someone not using WM would also complain about healers refusing to use their dps skills, or even go as far as kick such healers? Bear in mind, WM is a MUCH smaller increase than a healer going from 0 to max dps (whilst healing enough). Here's an example of scholar dps in Alexander: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...cause_minions/

I don't see how bard having a lower cast time than black mage is relevant to anything at all
or how adding cast times makes a job harder, since it makes bard easier to play

Can we all stop dancing around the obvious here? Movement kills DPS with Wanderer's Minuet active. A Bard not using it gets their auto-attacks, which effectively makes up for the damage loss, full mobility AND has the benefit of having a larger window to use abilities inbetween skills.

Using abilities with Wanderer's Minuet on can actually slow down DPS. Since the best time to use abilities is in-between skills on most classes, you have a much smaller window for using them in Wanderer's Minuet. In many cases I find that using the skill tends to inch past the casting time since there's a small animation delay after using any ability before you can cast.

This doesn't occur without WM on because we have the full GCD as our abilities window.

If someone wants to actually run some proper numbers with Wanderer's Minuet versus non-Minuet combat, then maybe it'll kill the debate flat. And I mean an actual, impartial comparison. Not one heavily weighted to convince themselves that they're right. I'm not going to argue that Wanderer's Minuet isn't stronger when you're standing still, but in an actual combat situation I question it's validity.

I will start using WM when it starts being a DPS buff for me. Except aoe fights I do higher DPS without WM, even compared to other BRDs in same fight who use it. I dont know if you actually tried some real fight (ravana em.. alex 4?) with WM and without WM before making this post or you just think it is good skill because SE wont release something unuseful and untested (lol).

So long as it's not Bismarck EX, as that fight is very caster unfriendly (unless you're a SMN).

I no longer understand the BRD community here on Forums. (The vocal annoying ones, not the ones playing in the game and using WM properly)

BRDs have for the longest time been the absolute weakest DPS Job. Raiders only took BRDs on cutting edge content because of the Ballad/Paeon safety net and boosting the BLMs for a bit with Foes.

The only advantage of the BRD over the BLM and SMN was simple, Instant weaponskills. It simply allowed the Bard to keep doing its mediocre damage while moving while the other Ranged Jobs had to lose most if not all of theirs.
Typically, Instant skills have a drawback, generally that's lower damage or high cost. For Melee, that's Range.

Now combine the damage of a Dragoon with the range of a Black Mage, for example.
That's what the Bard effectively is if it had the same DPS as Melee due to having Instant Weaponskills AND Black Mage Range.

But now you have Bards wanting to do the same damage as their ranged counterparts. How do you do that without making Bards the best DPS in the game?
The answer is is simple, meet halfway and make it a toggle.
We got a cast time to inhibit the DPS-on-the-run style that was limiting the Bards damage in the past.
However, those casts are very short. At 1.5 seconds (2.5 recast), Its just enough of a cast time to force us to stop to do Damage but not so long that we're rooted in place do any damage like a Black Mage (2.5/2.5 cast/recast).

We can now trade the hit and run for maximum DPS.
We can go into nuke mode and sit still, risking as much as a Summoner but can hit and run when required, but not at maximum damage.

It was the perfect solution. All that's left is for the Bards to get used to it, understand why it is the way it is and then just play the game.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Umm. Excuse me? I absolutely have that right. And what you're talking about isn't "skill level" it's intentionally playing subpar. I can deal with low skill level.

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Actually WM can be attributed into the same category of low skill. Because to actually get benefit from it - you need to train a bit, which is the same as training overall skill level.
On other hands it really depends on type of content and expected skill/efforts from party members. If it is a raid - it is one story, if it is a dungeon party - it is another story.WM is less comfortable way of playing and why I should play with it if I can outdps 2/3 dd in dungeons even without it? You can't really blame bard for not put extra efforts when most casual dps don't want to put their efforts to learn their job just a little.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

A Bard not using it gets their auto-attacks, which effectively makes up for the damage loss

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No, autoattack does not makes up for new minuet.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

SNIP

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Nope, Bard primary role is DPS, as shown by the DPS marker next to their name. Any Bard not optimizing DPS because "they don't have to" needs to be immediately kicked.

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Originally Posted by Felessan

Actually WM can be attributed into the same category of low skill.

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It can be if the person just doesn't understand how it works. The context of the person I was replying too was not that, though. They understood how it works but just refuse to use it because "playstyle". Someone not understanding how it works I can deal with. Someone intentionally pulling lower dps and holding back the group is not lack of skill, it's lack of empathy towards your fellow players.

@Wizarus
A DPS as well as a support Job. If you're not going to use MP, TP or Foe's when requested (I've had BRD's ignore my requests for Foe's, which I found odd as it does nothing to their DPS. I use it whenever I can in dungeons), then you're not really a Bard. Definitely an Archer, though.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

Can we all stop dancing around the obvious here? Movement kills DPS with Wanderer's Minuet active. A Bard not using it gets their auto-attacks, which effectively makes up for the damage loss, full mobility AND has the benefit of having a larger window to use abilities inbetween skills.

Using abilities with Wanderer's Minuet on can actually slow down DPS. Since the best time to use abilities is in-between skills on most classes, you have a much smaller window for using them in Wanderer's Minuet. In many cases I find that using the skill tends to inch past the casting time since there's a small animation delay after using any ability before you can cast.

This doesn't occur without WM on because we have the full GCD as our abilities window.

If someone wants to actually run some proper numbers with Wanderer's Minuet versus non-Minuet combat, then maybe it'll kill the debate flat. And I mean an actual, impartial comparison. Not one heavily weighted to convince themselves that they're right. I'm not going to argue that Wanderer's Minuet isn't stronger when you're standing still, but in an actual combat situation I question it's validity.

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I haven't tested it my self but several of the BRDs in my FC say that they have found the numbers show that while stationary WM does higher damage. I haven't reached max level yet so I've not bothered testing the numbers myself. It certainly seems particularly potent with AoEs.

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Originally Posted by Rhysati

Because I didn't roll and main a bard to have the playstyle completely change in the expansion. I'll see if it's now at least useable after the fixes, but I'm primarily going to continue playing the way I want. Thanks.

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Everything is subject to change in an MMO. Get over it.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

So long as it's not Bismarck EX, as that fight is very caster unfriendly (unless you're a SMN).

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That fight is actually pretty easy as a caster if you find the good spots to stand in, and no one crowds around you.

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Originally Posted by Verius_Nox

That fight is actually pretty easy as a caster if you find the good spots to stand in, and no one crowds around you.

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It's mostly the second phase that frustrated me as BLM. Those damn tornadoes seemed to have a BLM seeking device and would casually whirl their way over towards me (I once chose to kill my DPS entirely just to reposition and avoid a tornado. It changed course, slowly made its way through the melee DPS on Green snake and slowly made its way to my new position. Either I am incredibly unlucky, or tornadoes are programmed to hate BLM's). I got my clear as SMN because I wasn't having fun as BLM on Bismarck. I hear Ravana EX is a lot kinder and Floor 1, 3 and 4 have been fine (but SE should really make the Living Liquids tornado form untargetable).

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Originally Posted by Nestama

It's mostly the second phase that frustrated me as BLM. Those damn tornadoes seemed to have a BLM seeking device and would casually whirl their way over towards me (I once chose to kill my DPS entirely just to reposition and avoid a tornado. It changed course, slowly made its way through the melee DPS on Green snake and slowly made its way to my new position. Either I am incredibly unlucky, or tornadoes are programmed to hate BLM's). I got my clear as SMN because I wasn't having fun as BLM on Bismarck. I hear Ravana EX is a lot kinder and Floor 1, 3 and 4 have been fine (but SE should really make the Living Liquids tornado form untargetable).

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There's 2 spots where the tornados never go during that second phase.

http://i1247.photobucket.com/albums/...bismarckex.jpg

The two little ovals is about the area where they'll never run to you. Give it a bit of a trial and error, and you'll find that sweet spot. I've cleared Bismarck Ex as BLM.

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Originally Posted by Rikkustrife

I don't see how bard having a lower cast time than black mage is relevant to anything at all
or how adding cast times makes a job harder, since it makes bard easier to play

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When the GCD is 2.5s and your cast time is 1.5s, it means that you kept ~50%ish of your mobility (including server lag which let you moves a bit before the cast ends).
Also, since bards still have a sh*tload of instant procs and oGCD skills while under WM, it means that the inpact on their mobility is actually very low.

If cast times were equals (or higher) than the 2.5s GCD, it would be a completly different story, but it's not. Bards are actually complaining for a very light and weak change.

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Originally Posted by Belhi

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I'm unsure how anyone could claim it was otherwise. Before 3.01, maybe since it was only 20%. It's 30% damage up now, while also being instant to cast.
Minuet increases damage for the following skills:
-The entire Ability/Weaponskill list.

Auto Attack does the following:
- An X (Im sure someones run the math on this) potency attack every 2.6 seconds.

I just cant understand how anyone could find that they do more DPS with WM off unless its a fight that requires a lot of dodging. But then that's why it was made a toggle in the first place, So we could judge when we needed the extra DPS compared to being able to move about freely. That's not even counting the fact that Iron Jaws condenses DoT reapplication into one recast, freeing the second for another Heavy Shot.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Bards are actually complaining for a very light and weak change.

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It's not though.
I don't see how going from being a job that can attack very quickly using several quick attacks in succession to being a job that can only attack once in 1.5 seconds is not a big change

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Originally Posted by Rikkustrife

It's not though.
I don't see how going from being a job that can attack very quickly using several quick attacks in succession to being a job that can only attack once in 1.5 seconds is not a big change

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Attacking quickly? uhhh If by that you mean Weaponskill+Auto+Bloodletter ... And for most of the time it was just HS+AA.
Sometimes you got that lucky double proc.
In a 2.5 second period, you get exactly 1 weaponskill and 1 off global shot. Trying to stick two in takes longer than 2.5 seconds and slows down your stronger Weaponskills.
So no, In that same 2.5 second period, you are STILL only doing 2 attacks.

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Originally Posted by Rikkustrife

It's not though.
I don't see how going from being a job that can attack very quickly using several quick attacks in succession to being a job that can only attack once in 1.5 seconds is not a big change

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100% mobility to 50% mobility is a change. But people keep comparing it to blm (which has no mobility outside of stutter-stepping), which is false for the reasons he stated. You can still move with every single ability. It's nowhere close to blm immobility. Brd is still very mobile.

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Originally Posted by Verius_Nox

The two little ovals is about the area where they'll never run to you. Give it a bit of a trial and error, and you'll find that sweet spot. I've cleared Bismarck Ex as BLM.

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This is good advice. What I do is just stand in the green puddle near where you jump onto the carapace. The puddle gives you a visual marker so you don't have to guesstimate. It'll sometimes look like the tornadoes are coming at you, but they turn. Bismarc is actually a pretty decent fight for blm. With a little luck on phase 3 you can keep up perfect enochian uptime through the whole fight.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Attacking quickly? uhhh If by that you mean Weaponskill+Auto+Bloodletter ... And for most of the time it was just HS+AA.
Sometimes you got that lucky double proc.
In a 2.5 second period, you get exactly 1 weaponskill and 1 off global shot. Trying to stick two in takes longer than 2.5 seconds and slows down your stronger Weaponskills.
So no, In that same 2.5 second period, you are STILL only doing 2 attacks.

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You could have more than one bloodletter in those 2.5 seconds, as well as blunt arrow, and misery's end
Having 2 attacks within 2.5 seconds happens often.

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Originally Posted by Wizarus

Nope, Bard primary role is DPS, as shown by the DPS marker next to their name. Any Bard not optimizing DPS because "they don't have to" needs to be immediately kicked.

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Yoshi-P disagrees with you. That wasn't my question though... Maybe I should have made my post shorter to get the point through loud and clear. Here, a condensed version:

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Originally Posted by Reinha

I wonder if anyone of you complaining about someone not using WM would also complain about healers refusing to use their dps skills, or even go as far as kick such healers?

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Just curious if people would treat healers the same or if they have a double standard.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

I plan to use it once I get it. I am currently leveling my BRD to 60 atm(or BLM not sure yet), but once I get it, I plan to use it a lot. The cast times are not that bad. Try playing a BLM if you think it's long.

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its not about blms being longer or not, its about bards having that when they didnt.

Changing their gameplay they have played for several years.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

Just curious if people would treat healers the same or if they have a double standard.

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Stop trying to turn this into a "should healers have to dps" thread. There are too many of those as it is. If you wanna know what people think about that question, go read one of the bazillion threads dedicated to exactly that question. This one has enough distractions as it is.

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Originally Posted by ScarecrowJames

its not about blms being longer or not, its about bards having that when they didnt.

Changing their gameplay they have played for several years.

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BLM's have to now juggle 2 buffs with 3s casts, and if they mess up they do bad DPS for some time. You don't see a hundred threads on it because of their changed gameplay that they didn't have before.

Because MMO's change