We should have a "Lance mage", "Ninja Sword mage", "Fist mage"

I've started to just ignore non-Bards trying to convince Bards that it's good, because nobody who hasn't mained a Bard can understand the real problems with it. They just assume it's all about not being able to hop around the room while shooting.

Does it do wanderer's any justice if i say i just did 1k sustained while spinning around the dummy?

Im just here to say that NIN is already a mage!!

The Mudra's 0.5 seconds are very cast-bar-like and can't use any other skill while we are with them!! (also most Ninjutsus are magic damage)
Hell, can't use them more than once every 20 seconds :/ (and mudra lag doesn't help)

BUUUUUT I can still run around and auto-attack while using them so I'll show that off :v
As a fellow Ninja said "-Pose- -Pose- -Sneeze- -Bunny- NOOOO D:"

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

Main Class
Lancer Lv 60

Not. A. Bard.

Bard has been suffocated by casting times and needs help, it doesn't even play close to how it did before.

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This has nothing to do with bard. I have just seen an awful lot of threads/comments by you complaining about things.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

Main Class
Lancer Lv 60

Not. A. Bard.

Bard has been suffocated by casting times and needs help, it doesn't even play close to how it did before.

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Main Class
Scholar Lv 60
Not. A. Bard.

anyway.
"suffocated".
with an 1.5 second cast.
lmao.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

Main Class
Lancer Lv 60

Not. A. Bard.

Bard has been suffocated by casting times and needs help, it doesn't even play close to how it did before.

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Is this the "If you don't play the class, you have no credibility" game I'm seeing? Fancy game, old chap.

The person you're accusing is a 50 Bard, whereas you, the accuser, are a 32 Bard. Sure, I'll concede that both of you don't have WM, however neither one of you has ever used WM itself.

For comparison: It's like trying to make a guide on ninjas without any practical experience with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arkenne

The Mudra's

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Let's not forget that certain mudra actions can have GCD bleed.

Well, like I've said before, positionals are melee's version of casting. Instead of being forced to stand still, it's the opposite - we're forced to move into position.

Similarly to BRD getting WM was NIN getting more positionals (when it was almost completely positional free).
Many were upset with that, but it's died down because we only actually got 2 added positionals.

But that is a better analogy of a play style change and what melee contends with that is similar to casting in it's restriction of free movement.

Not saying BRD should be happy with WM or anything, just that the analogy is bad since there's already an equivalent.
Unless of course the example included positionals added on to ranged as well (lol).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SovereignAegis

Main Class
Lancer Lv 60

Not. A. Bard.

Bard has been suffocated by casting times and needs help, it doesn't even play close to how it did before.

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Oh, then I guess you have way more say with your lvl 32 brd? Should we disregard all your posts even MORE than the person with a level 33 or higher brd?

The nerve of some people....

If it's gives me more dps i'll take cast bars all day as a ninja.

A compromise could be to let bards move while they cast. That way they can't b***** about not being mobile

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

I've started to just ignore non-Bards trying to convince Bards that it's good, because nobody who hasn't mained a Bard can understand the real problems with it. They just assume it's all about not being able to hop around the room while shooting.

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This is accurate.

Quote:

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Well, like I've said before, positionals are melee's version of casting.

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I see where you are coming from but it's still wrong. You already HAD positionals. If you were say a melee job with NO positionals and then it changed to EVERYTHING being positional you might be on the right track.

Quote:

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That way they can't b***** about not being mobile

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See top quote. No main Bard cares about not moving. Also casting while moving? Why not just give us a Flat 30% buff instead for all the difference? I'm gonna assume you were being pedantic.

Both lancers and ninjas had pretty much zero positionals, and were given positionals.

They complained but lived with it, but I guess bards are special snowflakes.

The choice between minuet and not minuet is simple. You use the one that does more dps for your situation.

Its laughable when people say "but what about the chance of wasting a bloodletter proc" oh well. It's still a dps gain to use minuet even with casted BL.

The idea here is the discrepancy between "perfect dps given the tools you have" vs "what I want perfect dps to be". Its like in FF9 where you cannot get "the highest" stats in every stat. In which case perfection is no longer "highest stats in every stat" but "highest you can do with what you're given".

I imagine the bards complaining to be the same kinds of people that want someone to tell them what the "best dps" is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Both lancers and ninjas had pretty much zero positionals, and were given positionals.

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And that didn't completely change how the class worked and still flowed in with how they already played, so it's irrelevant.

But thanks for your, albeit useless, contribution.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

And that didn't completely change how the class worked and still flowed in with how they already played, so it's irrelevant.

But thanks for your, albeit useless, contribution.

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Empyreal Arrow and Iron Jaws are also locked behind Minuet.

No Minuet, none of those abilities.

Oh well, I'm sure the bard job can do with 5 fewer players.

You can git gud or play something else.

But SE did change the play style of pretty much all jobs completely when Yoshida first took over, from 1.0 to 1.23, then AGAIN from 1.23 to 2.0. For those 1.0 folks who played since the beginning there have been several play style transitions, bigger than 2.0 to 3.0 BRD even because we had completely new skills. But most of us just adapted to the new versions and kept on rolling. I don't play Bard at high level (mine is only in the 30s), but I've played many a fighting game where devs decide they want to just upend character's movesets entirely for the heck of it (looking at you KOF and Soul Calibur). In said games, I did one of three things:

- Learned the new version of the character/job (as I did in this game)
- Found a character/job I liked
- Stopped playing the game

It's time for Bards to make this choice since Yoshida seems set on taking your mobility in favor of having enough damage to clear the new content. Alternatively, you can have your mobility and not use Minuet, but you'll have low DPS (again, as Yoshida intends) and likely won't be looked upon very favorably with randoms. I'm pretty sure SMN is a anomaly (that will probably get nerfed down the line) as SE's plan for this game seems to specifically not want mobile classes to have damage comparable to classes that commit to attacks (be they melee or caster). and since this does not seem to be changing people will have to make a choice. If you decide the game isn't for you anymore because of this I respect that, but it's pretty clear that XIV won't have a high damage AND mobile class any time soon (again, that isn't SMN and I think that was not intended). And even then BRD was more mobile than SMN so the point kinda still stands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by InfiniDragon

mobility

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As soon as I see a non-Bard use that word, it's a really safe bet that they don't understand what the issue really is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trespar

the ability to run and gun like BRDs did just wasn't going to stay because it provided too much mobility and too much virtual dps. I mean, BRDs did not suffer the dps side effects of having the move out of an aoe, for example.

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"BRD's have too much mobility, nerf please! BRD's have too much support nerf please!...okay guys we killed this job, which one should we target next?"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

As soon as I see a non-Bard use that word, it's a really safe bet that they don't understand what the issue really is.

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No, I understand the issue. The issue is that you went from playing one way to a completely different way.

It's just that the devs wanting to take "mobility + DPS" from BRD and MCH is what led to said completely different play style change. There may be other solutions that can still solve this but cast bars are the one they chose.

EDIT: And XIV isn't the only game in history to ever do this if you read my post, so "non-Bards" can relate. You guys aren't some entity onto yourself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by InfiniDragon

No, I understand the issue.

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Then why say we can turn off WM and have our mobility if you understand that mobility isn't the issue?

3.1: Dragoon combos now have a 50% chance to go into the next step of the combo, but you won't know if it procs until shortly after your GCD ends. Also, all jumps do more damage the further away from the target you are when you use it, with very little damage when you're up close to good damage when at max range. Also, SFaC/EWT have a random chance to happen on every hit, but will interrupt your combo to use them, and if you don't use them, you lose that effect. Also, none of your OGCDs can be used within 1.5 seconds of a GCD. Also, if you move within 1.5 seconds of a GCD, your next attack does half damage.

But those are all fine changes because people can just deal with it, right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Panasync

What are you talking about, the class isn't losing DPS outside of WM? Are you serious? If you are I can eli5 for you. Obviously I was being a tad hyperbolic, but I thought that was obvious. If you're willfully staying out of WM, you're losing DPS by a nice chunk.

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If you're in a movement heavy phase, I can almost guarantee dropping WM is a DPS gain during that phase.

People are complaining about cast bars but is it really a cast or more just a wind up? Is it so unrealistic that an Archer/Bard/Bowman don't wind up their shots for more damage? Having shot a bow it's not just pull and throw. If you did it is obviously weaker. So it completely makes sense to not be able to move while you shoot more powerful shots.

How much movement do you have to do as a bard? Not saying it doesn't reduce the run and gun style but it's also would make sense why you do reduced damage.

1.5 second wind up timer is not that long seeing how some of your abilities will be on the gcd. Not saying all just some. GCD is 2.5 seconds so you can still easily weave in an ogcd ability within 3 seconds which actually occurs when not having WM up due to animation lock and latency.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tilgung

If you're in a movement heavy phase, I can almost guarantee dropping WM is a DPS gain during that phase.

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I might just be a stupid Dragoon main who doesn't understand The Plight of the Bard but I'm guessing a Bard outside of WM is probably capable of doing higher DPS than BLM in Nevereap final boss (and any new content that has similar movement requirements), though I'd need to see actual parses obviously to confirm that fact.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spelley

I might just be a stupid Dragoon main who doesn't understand The Plight of the Bard but I'm guessing a Bard outside of WM is probably capable of doing higher DPS than BLM in Nevereap final boss (and any new content that has similar movement requirements), though I'd need to see actual parses obviously to confirm that fact.

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It's almost like you can mechanically understand a job without having played it. That would be crazy though.

Personally, I'll never do Neverreap in minuet full-time unless drunk, and I never drink.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

unrealistic

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Oh, are we bringing realism into the game now?

Okay, fine. All melee should quit now because knives, fists, and spears aren't going to do a heck of a lot to a tank. Monks especially need not apply to anything that has Magitek colossi.

Tanks should also quit now because realistically, a suit of armour which is thin enough to allow you to move isn't going to help against explosions and dragons. Lalafell can no longer be tanks, too, because getting swiped at by a dragon would toss them across the room.

Speaking of armour, mages now all get a chance to trip over their robes, increased if interrupting a cast because they were distracted, and tanks move slower than everyone else because their armour is heavier.

Also, all enemies that fly and have projectiles are now unattackable by melee because realistically they'd just fly out of range and shoot at you.

And healers now do 10x the enmity of every other class.

Edit: Also, Monks can no longer move during any kick-based attack, because that's silly.

Double Edit: Also, why the heck does a spell called "Bio" work on machines and golems? Let's drop that too. Also ninja poisons don't work on anything that doesn't have a bloodstream.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

1.5 second wind up timer is not that long seeing how some of your abilities will be on the gcd. Not saying all just some. GCD is 2.5 seconds so you can still easily weave in an ogcd ability within 3 seconds which actually occurs when not having WM up due to animation lock and latency.

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A 1.5 cast timer in a 2.5 GCD only allows for less than a second to use oGCDs. For a class that has an oGCD that can reset it's cooldown, alongside four other oGCDs and four buffs which is a dps loss for every second it's not used (especially so in bloodletter's case). It'd change with skill speed, but all that'll do is lower the amount of time you have to use an oGCD skill and make the window for straighter shot proc tighter than it already is, because it doesn't speed up the attack animation, only lowering the cast time and GCD

The idea "you can move more/have better uptime" is getting more irrelevant as content comes out, because people who play melee (and even blackmages to some extent) get more familiar with fights where they can reduce their downtime to negligible amounts, if at all, such as earthshakers in T13 or nerve gas AoEs. On top of that, monks have gotten tools to maintain uptime and their dps even in cases of downtime through meditation, whereas bards/machinists do not (formerly machinists could by casting GB during the downtime).

Instead of saying "you don't get it man", You could list out the issues and maybe people will actually accept and support your point, but if you aren't laying out an objective argument you are just whining at this point.

ITT: Bards and people who have never played bards.

Played Bard, STILL play Bard, and while aware of the imperfections of Minuet, still largely disagree that it's such an unusable tool that breaks the job and completely kills the fun.

/dropmic

I honestly wouldn't mind a melee dps with cast times, it sounds fun even

I once suggested the idea of a melee caster, though my idea had more instant casts/buff management through skill/spell rotations.

Like some kind of odd DRK/MNK/2.0 BLM mix.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

My whine

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Your comments are filled with butt hurt.

Monks - Your comment makes no sense. You can't kick while in movement? Movement is sometimes the precursor to kicking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Snip.

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Having played Bard, I have also suffered from animation lock. The ogcd abilities you may be able to get 2 off in that one second but it is generally rare. Raging strikes and another action in between the GCD is hard to do as Raging Strikes for some odd reason has an unreasonably long animation. I learned which buffs I could group within that 2.5 seconds and which ones I couldn't. Raging Strikes for example was one buff that was always triggered solo.

Blood Letter, etc can still be done but will be causing .5 seconds of delay during WM than having WM off.

You missed my point entirely.

I really don't understand what BRD's are complaining about, BLM got a worse deal than BRD's and i don't see 500 threads on how crap BLM is.

i mean BLM got Enochian which is a pain in the ass to maintain in fights like Phantom ray in The Fractal Continuum.

Enochian - 30sec to 70sec duration with a recast of 60sec, has to be refreshed under Umbral ice with Blizzard IV

Wanderer's Minuet - infinite duration with recast of 15sec for the cost of mobility

i mean if you need you mobility for part of a fight TURN WM OFF

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Your comments are filled with butt hurt.

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Actually, they're filled with sarcasm, used to mock poor logic to point out that realism need not apply in a video game where realism is not a thing at all.

Heck, if we were treating classes logically, why are Ninjas the job that gets fall damage reduction and not Dragoons, whose entire dynamic revolves around jumping really high and then falling?

Quote:

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You can't kick while in movement?

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Put your foot up in the air. Hold it there. Now run around at full speed, keeping that in the air.

Or do whatever the heck they do during Dragon Kick and move around freely while doing it.

Except don't because you'll probably break your neck trying and I don't want to be responsible for that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Sarcasm failing

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Sarcasm is generally fueled through bitterness aka butt hurt.

Synonyms -

1. sardonicism, bitterness, ridicule.

Ninjas are more graceful than Dragoons. Plain and simple.

Again in regards to Monk. It looks like someone missed out on martial arts class. Flying Dragon Kick, you've heard of it right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

...

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Not unless you used a straighter shot proc. I mean yes, you could use two oGCDs even with WM, but the second one is well clipping into your next weaponskill by a good split second in doing so. That's a wasted GCD of a weaponskill everytime if you try to double up, and it adds up over a long fight. Then you still have the problem of bloodletter resets essentially being wasted. All of that makes for a very poor change in class design, espwhen they did the same for MCH to the point that it's nearly identically in playstyle, only MCH does it better because they're not tripping over themselves.

What point am I missing then?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Panasync

Because if you don't you might as well be a BLM running around using only scathe. The only way your comment would be remotely valid is if you weren't punished for being outside of WM, but you're severely punished.

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Turn it off when you have to move. It's how it's designed. Hell they made it more obvious and easier in this patch.

If you have more than 15 secs to DPS without moving flip it on. If you don't then turn it off until you do.

You know how much DPS you are doing moving without turning it off?

Yeah I'll take the scathe Mage over a bard that has Minuet up 100% of the time. Give me a bard that knows how to dance though then I am 50 shades of Giddy.

BRD requires stance dancing, learn when to have it on and when to have it off and you'll see your performance go up, same with MCH and Gauss Barrel.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wintersandman

Flying Dragon Kick

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Is not the animation for Dragon Kick.

Please play again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Is not the animation for Dragon Kick.

Please play again.

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That's all you got.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aiselia

Is not the animation for Dragon Kick.

Please play again.

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Besides the very initial part of the animation, which is a front flip drop kick, nearly everything else has the potential for momentum to allow them to move in nearly any direction.