Hopefully Alexander/Savage will be 24 mans.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

You do realize that the hard mode/savage Alexander is probably all but finished at this point right? They're implementing it a couple of weeks after the normal mode/story Alexander goes in. Making it 24 man at this point... yeah no. Not gonna happen. They'd basically have to scrap everything except the graphics work.

24 man raids in general... no thanks. It would be a logistical nightmare. The Year of the Pug would dawn in Eorzea because good luck to the average player putting together a 24 man static (maybe up to 30 if you want to have some alternates to fill in for no-shows). Contrary to what you said earlier, a 24 man raiding static wouldn't make a lot of us any more likely to take someone with no experience, at least not if the rest of the party has already progressed. It wouldn't make us less likely to kick someone that was repeatedly screwing up either, because that person is holding everyone else back. It would just make it more of a pain in the ass to 1) recruit skilled players and 2) replace players that aren't as skilled as they initially claimed. I honestly think it would make the endgame community even more insular than it already is, and pugs would still be out in the cold looking for a way in.

It would also make it more of a pain in the ass to learn outside of static because 24 man learning party. Even having 8 random players that are all new to a fight can make it feel like you're herding cats. 24 would be even less productive. This game is aimed at a more casual playerbase, and 24 man statics are most definitely not casual.

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TO be fair, you can make content that is very hard and challenging but still not content that you must learn and study before you can do it. If you need to study a fight at this point in the game then that fight is IMO, badly designed. Luckily, most fights so far have been nice and have had mechanics that you don't need to watch a video for. We need more fights with more random mechanics as well so they are not all the same.

The second you find a guide to a fight that isn't vague then its already failed.

One of the fights I remember was in Sentinel's Fate where there was a checkerboard in the final boss room.

Randomly, the floor would fall under you. Of course it would give you a warning but there were so many different patterns that you couldn't keep up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-iASkwCKYA for example. Except it was random, and each also gave a random buff or debuff as well. You had to move the named around the room and risk your raid not falling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o26P6LaeWpQ

I don't think it is a nightmare. I think your actually more afraid of it more then anything else, however that is personal opinion. I know you don't agree with me, however its been proven to be implemented so I doubt its this "Nightmare" as you call it, since I have experienced it myself.

I guess we were all super men, able to get together some people for a common goal! =3

Regarding that boss fight with the "checkerboard" arena... was that the only mechanic in the fight?

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Regarding that boss fight with the "checkerboard" arena... was that the only mechanic in the fight?

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No, you have to move away with a detriment or it would explode. You also could choose how tough you wanted the fight to be. The better the loot as well.

There are four runes that will appear during the battle against Theer. At least one must be killed, and as many as all four can be killed. Each rune that the group kills gives Theer a new ability. Referring to Theer as "One Rune Theer", "Two Rune Theer", etc... indicates how many runes were killed. There are essentially 15 versions of Theer that can be fought - four One Rune versions, six Two Rune, four Three Rune and one Four Rune.

It is hard to find the strats.

However, for 4 Rune Theer.

1. You must deal with tons of adds that spawn at the boss. They do double damage to non-tanks and constantly interrupt spell casting.
2. You must deal with an add that is HUGE and as hard as a dungeon boss that spawns every 120 seconds.
3. You must deal with a detriment that if you cure it, it explodes and if your near the raid and kills everyone except you, so you must be near it. You must not cure it.
4. You must deal with a detrement that if you do not cure it in time it explodes hurting the raid.
5. You must deal with the floors falling down, so you must keep moving and move the raid so they can escape if they have the other debuff.
   
   
6. Whilst you have to worry about the checkerboard flashing, and you falling to your death. Also Roehn Theer also has tank busters, so he can one shot your tank randomly in which the other tanks have to pick it up. Some tank busters cannot be avoided.

Rune Theer had four crystals. Each crystal made the fight harder, and the loot better for each crystal killed. You had to get him to 78% life, then pop how many crystals you wanted to, then after 75% the crystals are locked in giving him the powers. Of course without popping anything the loot kind of sucked to be honest. However it took months for the first raid to kill 4 Rune Theer, it was a fight made that nobody could beat it. Unlike MMOs these days which make encounters that you can beat.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

24 man raids in general... no thanks. It would be a logistical nightmare. The Year of the Pug would dawn in Eorzea because good luck to the average player putting together a 24 man static (maybe up to 30 if you want to have some alternates to fill in for no-shows). Contrary to what you said earlier, a 24 man raiding static wouldn't make a lot of us any more likely to take someone with no experience, at least not if the rest of the party has already progressed. It wouldn't make us less likely to kick someone that was repeatedly screwing up either, because that person is holding everyone else back. It would just make it more of a pain in the ass to 1) recruit skilled players and 2) replace players that aren't as skilled as they initially claimed. I honestly think it would make the endgame community even more insular than it already is, and pugs would still be out in the cold looking for a way in.

It would also make it more of a pain in the ass to learn outside of static because 24 man learning party. Even having 8 random players that are all new to a fight can make it feel like you're herding cats. 24 would be even less productive. This game is aimed at a more casual playerbase, and 24 man statics are most definitely not casual.

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Crystal tower worked just fine in ARR, granting it wasn't "hard".

Rift has difficult 24 man raids and they do just fine. That's what guilds (see FC) are for.

I see. Was just making sure as I would hate there to be a raid boss that was entirely tank and spank with only one mechanic to worry about (as that would put it on the same level as a 2.2-2.5 dungeon boss). Anyway, as said before, difficult 24 man raids would be difficult to have a reliable static for. Binding Coil alone still has a small % of people doing it (10% or something, right?). Make it 24 man raid and that % would most likely drop lower as the only way anyone would even be able to make progress is if they manage to find a group of people who are all capable of being on at a specific time on specific days and are all capable of working together with as little drama as possible. That or SE nerf it 6 months after release.

Dive Bombs and Twisters/Dreadknight still cause issues for some players :T

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Although it probably wasn't in your intentions, it was taken wrongly due to the wording you used. This can be considered harassment and is by all means reportable as it is against the rules (to which I have already reported). So, please, watch what you say before posting anything.

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But LTEvil spoke the truth. If a static is all drama then it isn't a good static. Individually they could be peachy nice. But if theres constant drama when the time to progress, then it's a compability issue between the members. Yes, we all have disagreements/off days even with RL friends and family.If you can patch it and move after. good. But if it is constant and drama is never resolved, that is the point when you needs seperate.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

8 man's are boring, I much prefer raids being like Crystal Tower. Raids should be with a lot of people, not 8. Also with the class imbalances I could see people excluding certain classes in 8 mans, however in 24 man's the new classes will be a lot more useful because of raidwide buffs/effects.

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You havn't even done cutting edge 8 person content. So how are you capable of commenting whether it's boring or not? Yeah it's boring when it's nerfed and echoed. Do it when it isn't then come back.

Also Buffs affect the party, not the alliance.

24 man raids? No.. As in Hell no.

As others have previously stated, trying to get 24 people to work in synergy is not only difficult but getting them all to show up on raid night will be a battle in itself. I personally think 8 main raids are the bread and butter of the endgame raiding scene.

Also (and S.E. will never admit this) but to alleviate the feeling of alienating casuals and mid-core players, they band-aid this with the current 24 man raids. They're implemented so that the majority of their player base don't get left out of the raid scene. This seems to be a working formula for them. Let's keep it that way. I know damn well that every piece of endgame gear I have, i've earned. Lets not sully the hard work with some people doing less than and reaping the same rewards. Just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

You havn't even done cutting edge 8 person content. So how are you capable of commenting whether it's boring or not? Yeah it's boring when it's nerfed and echoed. Do it when it isn't then come back.

Also Buffs affect the party, not the alliance.

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There have been things I have done that you haven't. However I'm not going to rub it in your face like its some kind of achievement and prize since its a game. This is semi-the elitism I was talking about. Unfortunately for you I joined the game when Coils were already nerfed/done, so I really didn't enjoy them since honestly for 1 - you can't really get into a static that late in the game, and 2 - everyone who did them was honestly just disrespectful and thought themselves better then everyone else. I had a lot more fun just running easy zones like Crystal Tower. However your achievements are all dead now, that is no longer end game, your loot and entitlements are now the past.

I think a lot of skills might be changed to hopefully be raid wide to give more value to under-powered classes. Otherwise they will not have a place for some classes in an 8 man static.

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Originally Posted by Ketsuyame

24 man raids? No.. As in Hell no.

As others have previously stated, trying to get 24 people to work in synergy is not only difficult but getting them all to show up on raid night will be a battle in itself. I personally think 8 main raids are the bread and butter of the endgame raiding scene.

Also (and S.E. will never admit this) but to alleviate the feeling of alienating casuals and mid-core players, they band-aid this with the current 24 man raids. They're implemented so that the majority of their player base don't get left out of the raid scene. This seems to be a working formula for them. Let's keep it that way. I know damn well that every piece of endgame gear I have, i've earned. Lets not sully the hard work with some people doing less than and reaping the same rewards. Just my 2 cents.

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This is why you design dungeons that you probably cannot beat in a single mention. The first boss of the dungeon is the easiest and it gets harder and harder until the end. Making it so you have a big raid dungeon and trash (which also has a chance to drop loot). Each named being further and further in the zone and harder. Most raids, might be able to pug and kill the first 3 nameds, however the other 6 might not be able to be killed in the same way. However at least people will still get upgrades.

TL;DR
Just fighting a single named is rather boring to me. I like zones with many named in them and each tier of the zone getting harder the deeper you get into the zone. Trash also should drop its own unique loot as well, so they are not pointless to kill.

Btw;
Crystal Tower was a lot more popular then Coils, pretty much everyone did them because they were fun, and didn't require so much being in sync. However I think they could still keep its popularity and pump up the difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Crystal Tower was a lot more popular then Coils, pretty much everyone did them because they were fun, and didn't require so much being in sync. However I think they could still keep its popularity and pump up the difficulty.

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It was also incredibly easy, save for maybe one boss per raid. Labyrinth of the Ancients had Bone Dragon, Atomos and King Behemoth. Syrcus Tower had Scylla. World of Darkness had Angra Mainyu (and probably Garm now, because tanks think it's a fantastic idea to stack them all in the middle... when I did it a month ago). These were the only "hard" bosses of those raids (with Cloud of Darkness being the worst boss in the game for being incredibly boring and easy). The other bosses of those raids were pretty much tank and spank with some attacks that would affect the alliance, but not so much that would make a healer turn Cleric Stance off.

Coil bosses have mechanics that make the party react to them. T10, someone is marked for charge. Party and OT need to stand in front of them to mitigate the damage (tether is party not affected by Heat Lightning need to stack). T11 has tethers and Gaseous Bomb (and group damage mitigation from Sphere Node). T12 has brand, fire, fountain. T13 has Megaflare, Earthshakers, Flare Star and Divebombs.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

There have been things I have done that you haven't.

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Yet you are still calling them boring as if you have experienced them. Thats my point, you are commenting on something with no experience of what you are calling out. Pointing out the reality that you cannot make an accurate judgement of something without even experiencing it is not Elitism (look up the definition of the word will you?) it's a fact.

I said to get the experience, them make an educated, experienced comment. You will have your chance when Alex savage is released to get that actual experience of cutting edge 8 person raiding and then you can accuratly conclude on how you find them. Now if you were asking for a hard version of the 24 person raid that is already planned, I would agree. But trying to change something that is already established (8 person hard content) then no. Players enjoy it. You never know if you ever experience it, you might enjoy it too. But until you actually experience, your complaints about them being "boring" are asinine.

And as an aside, I've been raiding since EQ1.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Crystal Tower was a lot more popular then Coils, pretty much everyone did them because they were fun, and didn't require so much being in sync. However I think they could still keep its popularity and pump up the difficulty.

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Everyone did them because they were easy, and for non raiders, became the best way outside hunts, to obtain upgrade items for tome gear.

Also if you can't find a static, make one!

Then, in that case I can call in your education on previous games that have 24 player raids. I can say that you have little to no experience in them so you shouldn't doubt my opinion because you haven't done them.

I am not attempting to change something "already established" since you seem to have the magical ability of foresight and can see the future. I am trying to attempt to ask for more 24 player raids that are challenging.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Everyone did them because they were easy, and for non raiders, became the best way outside hunts, to obtain upgrade items for tome gear.
Also if you can't find a static, make one!

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Sorry to break your bubble, but they are more "raids" then definition then Coil is. Even if they are easier. Coil is still just a party fight.

Just like there were hard encounters that were party fights in other games, it is just rare. Not many games make party fights that are harder then raids except ones like this.

If the developers did "disagree" then they would rename "Full Party" to "Raid".

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Then, in that case I can call in your education on previous games that have 24 player raids. I can say that you have little to no experience in them so you shouldn't doubt my opinion because you haven't done them.

I am not attempting to change something "already established" since you seem to have the magical ability of foresight and can see the future. I am trying to attempt to ask for more 24 player raids that are challenging.

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What relevance has other games got on changing something in FFXIV? Do you want to change content in "them other games"? No, you want to change something in FFXIV. But if you want to play that game, Ive raided 80 person in EQ1, mained as Dark Elf Cleric. Raided upto and including first expansion of EQ2 mained as Dark Elf Shadowknight (still one of my fave tanking classes, using life taps and diseases to hold hate, and they could hold hate), Raided in AoC the first year when gear made little difference and blocking was active, not RNG based, if you didn't get the hang of it, you died, gear didnt carry you. Raided in LOTRO from launch and Mines of Moria, Raided in Swtor, cleared all, left before it went Free to play, as found it boringly easy, even the hardest setting we one shotted. Also in DCUO, we were clearing raids the same day they were released, getting server firsts. I could go on but none of that has any relevance to FFXIV. It's a different game.

Did you forget what thread title you posted? here, a reminder.

Hopefully Alexander/Savage will be 24 mans.

You are wanting to change something that is established as being 8 person content to 24 person content, because you find 8 person raids oring, even though you havnt experienced them when they were cutting edge (nerfed/echod does not count as the difficulty is drastically reduced).

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Sorry to break your bubble, but they are more "raids" then definition then Coil is. Even if they are easier. Coil is still just a party fight.

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My bubble is still in one piece, thankyouverymuch! Look under raids on the duty finder, it has *dumdum duuuuum" Coil. To SE it is a raid, thus it is a raid. Your definition is irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

My bubble is still in one piece, thankyouverymuch! Look under raids on the duty finder, it has *dumdum duuuuum" Coil. To SE it is a raid, thus it is a raid. Your definition is irrelevant.

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Funny, the definition of it clearly states "Your Party." "Your Party." ect ect. They probably put it under "Raids" tab to make it easier, however the definiton of the very zone uses the word "Party".

World of Darkness, Crystal Tower, Labyrinth does not have those definitions.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Funny, the definition of it clearly states "Your Party." "Your Party." ect ect. They probably put it under "Raids" tab to make it easier, however the definiton of the very zone uses the word "Party".

World of Darkness, Crystal Tower, Labyrinth does not have those definitions.

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Now you are just going into semantics to try and dodge the meat of my reply. No, CT calls it an alliance, so that musn't be a raid either as it doesn't state raid......

Doesn't the term raid (for MMO's) define difficult boss fights and party coordination (which is pretty much the only way to really beat any Coil boss pre-nerf)? That's something the Crystal Tower 'raids' lack, yet we still call it that because it's 24 people content.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Doesn't the term raid (for MMO's) define difficult boss fights and party coordination (which is pretty much the only way to really beat any Coil boss pre-nerf)? That's something the Crystal Tower 'raids' lack, yet we still call it that because it's 24 people content.

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Pretty much whatever the game designer wants to call a raid, is a raid XD

I do would agree but 24man is far too complicated to organize in a FC. And don't tell me duty finder, damn Itry to not use this shit as most as possible. Still haven't down any EX with it, and don't even talk about coil.

I ask for 24 man raid with a harder difficulty in the live letter forums a couple of days ago. Hope they say yeah. As far as it being hard to get a 24 man raid together, that would not be a hard task. Unless you are lazy. You have fourms and if people want to raid in 24 man raid content they find you, lots of people use the fourms for recruiting or look for a static and are more then willing to change severs.

You could also shout and use duty finder and there are loads of people in the LS that can get statics going or create a 24 man raid FC. Me personally I would love to see harder content for 24 man raid. For those who think it can\\\\'t be done simply don\\\\'t want it to be done. Some people just don\\\\'t like change and when threatens them, they rally and try and stop it. Not saying you guys are who disagree. Just saying it happens. But yeah we already have 24 man raid and people do use then offen, all SOE has to do is make the raid harder and increase the Item Level. Also if you don\\\\'t want or like the content that we would like to be implemented, because you don\\\\'t want to put in the effort or what ever the reason.

You don\\\\'t have to participate in the 24 man raids. You can keep doing 8 man. I don\\\\'t think the ones who want to play 24 man end game content should have to suffer, nor do I think the 8 man people should either. SOE could every make similar stats to the 8 man gear and just different appearances, or they could make it even harder then the 8 man raid and in order to do the 24 content you need the 8 man raid. And you get better gear from the 24 man raid. Just throwing ideas out there, I just want harder 24 man raiding in the game we can go from there after we have it. Please try not to bash it before have given it a try. If you don\\\\'t like it don\\\\'t do it. If it does not work out they can always take it out, or dumb it down. I have raided for around 10 year in Everquest 2 and have lots of memories from awesome moments in 24 man raids were people would do the impossible or complete the raid in a way it was not intended to be complete .

In ffxiv every thing is scripted and you can\\\\'t go of script in order to complete content that\\\\'s, kinda lame and has nothing to do with this thread. Lol but wish we had a lil more freedom in how we defeat mobs. Also one more
Thing off topic. Why don\\\\'t they have raid like the Dugeons don\\\\'t you think it\\\\'s a lil lame how you fight every thing in raid on a round plate form even the trash? Why can we explore the raid like a Dungeon? Don\\\\'t have to answer, I know it\\\\'s off top just not sure if I\\\\'m the only one that notice. There is a lot of round plate forms in this game.

Sorry about the grammar at work no time to proof read. Also SOE suppose to be SE.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Doesn't the term raid (for MMO's) define difficult boss fights and party coordination (which is pretty much the only way to really beat any Coil boss pre-nerf)? That's something the Crystal Tower 'raids' lack, yet we still call it that because it's 24 people content.

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The term "raid" in every single game I've ever played, is technically defined as "more than one full group". In EQ2, this was at least 2 6 man groups, in WoW this is at least 2 5 man groups. Here in FFXIV, it's at least 2 4 man light parties.

A full party is technically a raid group.

The OP is living up to his EQ2 reputation here, too I see.

It seems that from the tweet the developers are going to make the 8 mans the more casual version: Like Crystal Tower. The 24 man's will be the new coils. =D

Can't wait to see whats going to happen!

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

It seems that from the tweet the developers are going to make the 8 mans the more casual version: Like Crystal Tower. The 24 man's will be the new coils. =D

Can't wait to see whats going to happen!

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If this is truer I'm going to go and s$&@ my self.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

TO be fair, you can make content that is very hard and challenging but still not content that you must learn and study before you can do it. If you need to study a fight at this point in the game then that fight is IMO, badly designed. Luckily, most fights so far have been nice and have had mechanics that you don't need to watch a video for. We need more fights with more random mechanics as well so they are not all the same.

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See, I think fights with too many random mechanics are an awful idea because it's always absolutely maddening when RNGesus basically screws you out of a clear with a really unfortunate series of Bad Stuff™.

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I don't think it is a nightmare. I think your actually more afraid of it more then anything else, however that is personal opinion. I know you don't agree with me, however its been proven to be implemented so I doubt its this "Nightmare" as you call it, since I have experienced it myself.

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My opinion is that compared to what we have now, it'd be a nightmare. Getting 24 people in one place in one time is several orders of magnitude harder than getting 8 people in one place at one time. I don't see how anyone can try to argue otherwise. My static already runs into issues with scheduling. Note that I never said it would be impossible, just that it would be difficult; you telling me that I'm afraid of it honestly kind of makes me laugh. You haven't even touched endgame in this game, and yet you feel like you're in a position to pass judgement on it. All of your excuses about it are kind of meaningless - if you really wanted to experience it, you would've buckled down and done it. I first got into endgame long after T5 was a thing (Echo went into SCoB around the time I was in T8, so yes we had some catching up to do). I managed to get myself into a static and get myself caught up with T13.

As far as 24 man raids go, I'm not willing to go down the road of pugging half of my raid on any given static night. I'd sooner play with people that I know have the skills to get through the content and that I know I can get along with well enough to raid with them. I think I deserve to raid with people that I mesh well with on a personal and a technical level. CT/ST/WoD are completely different animals - they're easy content that's meant to be clearable in all but the worst of random parties. Actual endgame content requires you to fine-tune that 8 man machine.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

See, I think fights with too many random mechanics are an awful idea because it's always absolutely maddening when RNGesus basically screws you out of a clear with a really unfortunate series of Bad Stuff™.



Compared to what we have now, it'd be a nightmare. Getting 24 people in one place in one time is several orders of magnitude harder than getting 8 people in one place at one time. I don't see how anyone can try to argue otherwise. My static already runs into issues with scheduling. Note that I never said it would be impossible, just that it would be difficult; you telling me that I'm afraid of it honestly kind of makes me laugh.

I'm not willing to go down the road of pugging half of my raid on any given static night. I'd sooner play with people that I know have the skills to get through the content and that I know I can get along with well enough to raid with them. I think I deserve to raid with people that are easy to get along with as well as being as skilled.

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Then bring in a new person and take a risk. Randomness isn't subject to RNG more then it is Adaptation.

Trial by fire. You take what you can get, and maybe you will find someone amazing.

Call me crazy, but I have been pugging for years and some of the best players I have found are players nobody gives a chance to.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

It seems that from the tweet the developers are going to make the 8 mans the more casual version: Like Crystal Tower. The 24 man's will be the new coils. =D

Can't wait to see whats going to happen!

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I'd like a link to this actually. While Alexander Normal will be around Echo'd Coil/CT difficulty, they have said multiple times that Savage Alexander will be as hard as Savage Coil (apparently Savage Final Coil, which I assume just means expect Second Savage Coil difficulty since thats all we got.)

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

It seems that from the tweet the developers are going to make the 8 mans the more casual version: Like Crystal Tower. The 24 man's will be the new coils. =D

Can't wait to see whats going to happen!

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Proof please.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

Then bring in a new person and take a risk. Randomness isn't subject to RNG more then it is Adaptation.

Trial by fire. You take what you can get, and maybe you will find someone amazing.

Call me crazy, but I have been pugging for years and some of the best players I have found are players nobody gives a chance to.

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Pugs can be good, sure. But pugs can also be a complete waste of time. If we're looking to fill a party ASAP for progression content, Party Finder is honestly our absolute last resort. We go to linkshells, FC's, and friend lists first before we ever go near PF. Good pugs that we meet in other content often end up in our static linkshell to act as subs. Bad pugs... well, at best they get replaced. At worst, they get blacklisted.

I don't have a 'take what you can get' mentality. My static deserves more than that.

I don\\'t understand why not recruit players. There will be loads of people trying to complete the new content and WANT to join a static or fc in order to take on the new task. I have Loads of people on my sever behemoth looking for statics all the time and vise versa. You also have people on the forums. And if you not sure about the person that is trying or wanting to join you just test them. Take them to end game content and see what or where there skill level is.
That\\'s what we use to do in eq2, have them apply to your website and They will tell you there name raid experience what content they have beaten, what time they raid and so on. Then you take them and test them out.

When designing this game, the devs made a conscious decision to make this a theme park MMO, i.e. accessibility being at the forefront of its goals. Hence making content for the minority is of very low priority.

Housing...I'd like to think of it as a royal mess up.

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Originally Posted by Sapphic

Pretty much whatever the game designer wants to call a raid, is a raid XD

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Well of course, but I'm just throwing sticks at this point :P

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

It seems that from the tweet the developers are going to make the 8 mans the more casual version: Like Crystal Tower. The 24 man's will be the new coils. =D

Can't wait to see whats going to happen!

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That's the exact opposite of what they've been saying. I'm not sure where you're getting your information.

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Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor

It seems that from the tweet the developers are going to make the 8 mans the more casual version: Like Crystal Tower. The 24 man's will be the new coils. =D

Can't wait to see whats going to happen!

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To remember you, Alex is coming in 8 man (normal) mode next week, difficulty between CT and Coil, and in 8 man (Savage) mode in 2 1/2 weeks, difficulty aboth Coil, not as 24 man.
The dev you speak have mean the normal mode.

A 24 man raid is planned for 3.1 in 3 months

So, instead of actually fixing class issues, you'd rather make the SAVAGE raid into a 24-man so that they can find a place to fit in? So much band-aid, and it just sounds like you want to dumb down the hardest content.

As said before, 3.1 is planned to introduce a new 24-man raid. No, it will not be considered "the hardest raid out there". I have no qualms in having hard 24-man content, but the higher the player cap, the more leeway the devs have to put into raids. The Savage raids will always be 8-man (although 4-man could be interesting too), as in a small party setting everyone's effort really matters and it's just the right number in making working, yet challenging mechanics. If someone's skill level is not high enough for the hardest stuff, maybe they should just not do them. No point in dumbing down *Savage* content to make it less *Savage*, no?

Bards and Machinists do need a buff, but not in this kind of a band-aid fix to make them even remotely relevant. And if you're having issues finding a party, just join an FC. We have several bards whom we gladly take among us. And the fact is, those classes are gonna be desired in Savage content anyways because the healers are gonna run dry of mp anyways.

Fact is, if you're a good player, you're gonna find a slot for you, no matter what class you play. Some people may be bias about certain classes, but skill>gear/clads always.

CT 1 - 3 are easy as hell and still some people managed to form it into wipefest.
24man content will never be as hard and challenging as 8man raids and I believe that these raids are what keeps some people in this game including me. So nope. Alexander is 8man and I am glad for it.

I really don't want a 24man raid that isn't CT like. It becomes more of a pain to deal with loot and scheduling then if you have 8 people. If they want to add 24man raids then add it with the same drops that way people have a choice (spoiler alert: most people will still do 8man because 24man raiding just flat out sucks to do coming form a heroic/mythic raider from WoW)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

24man content will never be as hard and challenging as 8man raids

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I highly doubt the people who say this in this thread actually ever tried hard 20+ man content.
It's a real group effort of coordination and is extremely satisfying when you finally pull it through. 8 man raiding lacks that little spark.
Don't start with the "half the raid showing up" and all that jazz argument, it is a complete fallacy. If you're truly serious about doing hard content you'll find other serious people, just like in any other MMO, or any other thing that requires commitment in life for that matter.

In the end I don't know why it has to be a "this or that" and not "this and that", 20+ man raiding is arguably a better experience but requires far more effort, time and dedication, while 8 man raiding is a bit less difficult and spectacular but is far more convenient (some also prefer the closer knit group), so why not have both ? WoW did it fine and people were perfectly happy with it.

All increased pool size of players for a raid does is cause teams to stack the FOTM's.

Source: Experience.