Mini-Lottery: Maybe a BIT more fairness?

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

There are some possibilities where every single choice will give you a 15, for 180 MGP. I would like to see one of those cards, just to laugh and say there was no point in taking my time deciding which line to pick.

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My high end math's a bit rusty but wouldn't the chance of that be 1/9! (! = factorial), meaning 1/362880.

Maybe 8/362880 as the corner numbers can be rotated and the cardinal direction ones as well, or somethin like that. Still, not very likely.

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

My high end math's a bit rusty but wouldn't the chance of that be 1/9! (! = factorial), meaning 1/362880.

Maybe 8/362880 as the corner numbers can be rotated and the cardinal direction ones as well, or somethin like that. Still, not very likely.

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Yeah, it's 8/9! since there are 8 occurrences of every card when you rotate/mirror them.

All value prizes are available before you make a single scratch on the card. The math is incorporated after selecting which spaces you scratched out.
The trick is to work with rng and try and set yourself up for a line 6. So theres luck and math involved in this but as it stands it's the furthest thing from broken. Just gotta add up the numbers correctly and hope for the best on your blank spaces

I think the bigger issue is that you only have one chance at a Mini ticket once a day. Really puts a damper on the overall excitement of the game. While I don't feel that removing the daily limit completely is the best solution (yet), I also feel that one ticket a day is a bit too strict/stingy (for a casino). Even if the player is only allowed to purchase one ticket, once a day, there should be other ways to earn tickets.

They could give Mini Cactpot vouchers as prizes for the various minigame and GATEs. The first ticket could be purchased with MP, but have it so players can earn more than one ticket a day. It would be nice to have an extra incentive for players to be more involved in Golden Saucer activities. The one-a-day limit just isn't much fun at all.

I also think it would be a fun idea if the payout table was different for each ticket. Perhaps they could replaced MP payouts with other prizes, perhaps similar to the point value the prize is replacing. This would add an extra layer of strategy and give the player a reason to go for a sum other than "6" and "24."

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

It's totally fair. Every time you play, you have the exact same chance as everybody else at having that 10,000 prize on your card.

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Not necessarily agreeing with the OP, but I have yet to buy a single Cactpot card that had the 10k MGP as a possibility (i.e. none of the numbers even added up to 6). The most I've been able to win on a card is 1080 - which I won twice. I've never bought a lottery ticket in real life, but I assume that every ticket at least has the possibility of getting the advertised jackpot. So in a vague sense, yeah I do have the same chance as anyone else. But I'm very put off by the fact that you have to have "double luck" to win the jackpot on a single Cactpot card.

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Originally Posted by DarkDedede

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That's actually a good idea, though it'd have to be rather restrictive as well lol. Like a rare chance for said voucher, maybe somewhere between current Atma and old Atma chance for a GATE drop. The mini games would have to be old Atma, if not worse lol. I do the mini games for a while every so often, and you can easily finish a game in 5-7 seconds (includes wait time). I also like the additional items chance, but honestly... I think most people would prefer the MGP. I really would hate to see Triad packs (besides maybe gold pack) or something in there, since the yield chance is rather poor.

Its a lottery, life isn't fair, why do expect this to be any different. Your luck sucks, have some fun, and get over it please. These threads are just plain ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

Except that you can influence your mini cactpot winnings by knowing some basic math..

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I agree with this I won second place 4 time, twice in a row both time (2nd, 2nd, other amount, 2nd, 2nd), and just yesterday won 1st place. I use what numbers I have and try and figure out which row would yield the highest reward. I lost a few times using this method but it works most of the time.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

I agree with this I won second place 4 time, twice in a row both time (2nd, 2nd, other amount, 2nd, 2nd), and just yesterday won 1st place. I use what numbers I have and try and figure out which row would yield the highest reward. I lost a few times using this method but it works most of the time.

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The method is absolute simple, but of course you will never win the 2nd or 1st prize, if your ticket simply don't have it. Some of my guild mates and friends are lucky and won the first prize already a few times, while others never had more than a 1k winning, most times below and it's becoming worse every day.

Those who won are already feeling bad about it, because they are lucky, while the others are forced to grind for simple things. None of them care for the expensive stuff, because they are normal gamers, many with jobs, family and so on, people who like to do stuff like ex primae or coil, but for sure not dozens of hours of TT.

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Its a lottery, life isn't fair, why do expect this to be any different. Your luck sucks, have some fun, and get over it please. These threads are just plain ridiculous.

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Your egoistic hate is ridiculous. Get over this egoism and start to think about other players. It's a multiplayer game, coop, not PvP, so you REALLY should think that way and not only "me, me, me".

A lottery of that kind should not be part of a game like FF14 anyway, actually any kind of lottery should not exist at all, not in a game, not in RL, if you would inform yourself about the backgrounds, you would know this. They are ruining lifes every single day.

If it is all about luck, then they should just use it everywhere. Why something like coil drops or poetry marks? Just RNG this, too. Everything for free, all you need is luck.

RNG is ruining this game. It's the one thing almost every player I ask, who leaves or plans to leave FF14 mentions, that the RNG is ruining it for them. And yes, they are getting over it. By leaving this game behind and playing something else.

I don't think, that's the goal of Square, to lose players. But, well, maybe I'm wrong.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Your egoistic hate is ridiculous. Get over this egoism and start to think about other players. It's a multiplayer game, coop, not PvP, so you REALLY should think that way and not only "me, me, me".

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And in actual fact, this topic was started by you, about "you, you, you". You were pretty upset that some people won the 10k reward a few times...

Maybe SE should remove both Jumbo and Mini Cactpots and everyone shall grind the Imperial until 1,000,000 MGP?

I tend to use the power of deduction and probability. Open numbers in strategic points so there are more open numbers to map out your possibilities and know what numbers your missing. Although I like to go all out when I see a perfect numbers line for a possible 1,2,3 line, only to find out that it's a 1/2/some-other-number and I get sad.

Sometimes if I do it right, I get the highest points possible on my card, which ranges from 170-360 MGP, which is fine.

From now on the Mini Cactpot will automatically exchange 100 MGP to 1000 MGP upon each use so people's feelings don't get hurt.

"OMG SE, now I have to log on every day just to keep up with everyone else!?!? I hate this game I quit"

Yeah, I'm sure players are leaving because of the mini-cactpot.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Your egoistic hate is ridiculous. Get over this egoism and start to think about other players. It's a multiplayer game, coop, not PvP, so you REALLY should think that way and not only "me, me, me".

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Yet you're the only one expressing that kind of hate or selfishness. You seem to think that if you personally don't always win, not just a great return, but the very highest possible return anyone can ever get, then the whole game has been devastated. That's ridiculous.

Every single Mini-Cactpot ticket has multiple chances to win, depending on which row you pick. What's more, multiplying your chances to win by the amounts you can win and your chances to lose by the amount you would lose, these tickets are a fantastic bargain, worth far more than their cost.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

A lottery of that kind should not be part of a game like FF14 anyway, actually any kind of lottery should not exist at all

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If you don't like the lotteries, then don't play them. It's one of several optional features of a totally optional area that's completely unrelated to the main game. It doesn't even have any rewards beyond a few cosmetics. The only reason anyone is there playing Gold Saucer games or trying to earn MGP is if they enjoy it. You clearly don't, so why would you even care who wins some points you don't want? Is it really, as it seems, just because SE had the effrontery to add something to the game that doesn't pertain to you specifically? There are plenty of other people who like games of chance.

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Originally Posted by Niwashi

Yet you're the only one expressing that kind of hate or selfishness. You seem to think that if you personally don't always win, not just a great return, but the very highest possible return anyone can ever get, then the whole game has been devastated. That's ridiculous.

If you don't like the lotteries, then don't play them. It's one of several optional features of a totally optional area that's completely unrelated to the main game. It doesn't even have any rewards beyond a few cosmetics. The only reason anyone is there playing Gold Saucer games or trying to earn MGP is if they enjoy it. You clearly don't, so why would you even care who wins some points you don't want? Is it really, as it seems, just because SE had the effrontery to add something to the game that doesn't pertain to you specifically? There are plenty of other people who like games of chance.

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If you don't read a thread, don't answer to it, okay? Especially not in such a hateful way. You obviously don't want to discuss it, so why are you here? To flame me? Or just out of egoism, because, as all those who argue like you say: It's about, that THEY got special stuff others won't get. PURE egoism. You want Gold Saucer to be the "elitits grinder" place.

What about doing Coil? T13? Or not good enough for this? Or do the fishing achievement. There you got your terrible RNG grind. This game already served you very well. Gold Sauce was presented as a place for all players. But it's not. It's RNG again, it's grind again. And many, many people hate it. They just don't post here, because they lost their "faith" in Square and don't want to get flamed by people like you. They just leave. First the Gold Saucer and - from their speaking - the game, when Square continues this. Because they can spend those monthly fees also on a real lottery ticket, if they want something like that. I try my best to keep them, I'm telling them, that Square may change this, that they wrote here and there, that they want to reduce the RNG and grind. And then another thing goes online, this time Gold Saucer and again: RNG and grind.

That's the reality. Not your private universe, where everything is fine - for you.

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Yeah, I'm sure players are leaving because of the mini-cactpot.

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Not because of mini-cactpot. because it is the only real source for MGP beside terrible grinding. The great mass beyond those few with sheer luck hate both, because it's - and there is no discussion about it - dumb. Grind is per definition repetitive and dumb and RNG does not need anything else than luck - so it's dumb.

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And in actual fact, this topic was started by you, about "you, you, you". You were pretty upset that some people won the 10k reward a few times...

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I were not and I am not. I'm actually making money as a game designer and when I see bad mechanics, which hurt a player base, I see a problem. Sure, I could say, like you: Who cares? If Squares ruining or hurting their game, that is not my problem. Let them lose players to other games, that will teach them. Maybe.

Or I care about this game, care about the players, care about the developers, about others, something you are apparently not able to. Those few Antis here - and you are few, even when you reach a dozen, you are far below 0,01% of the player base, don't bring any constructive points. It's just anti. No, everything is fine, because I, I, I got no problem with it.

But beside personal emotions, sheer math is telling, that this is not true.

You care only about yourself, not this thread, not other players, not the game or Square, who developed it. You would lose NOTHING if Square would make it less of RNG and a grind. And still the aggression in this thread about simply more fun for all players is catastrophic. As if someone would threaten you to steal your cookies...

@ Vidu
Read the thread. The problem is not the lottery, the problem is, that there is nothing to compensate it but a terrible grind. And no, gaming is not even near the disastrous effect of lottery in RL, there are WORLDS between.

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Making this a general "What is bad and unfair in this game"-thread is not excatly a clever move. People will insist to tell you why a lottery which includes luck is fine - if you want to discuss the rest you may go and open up another thread to rant about all that RNG?

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Ask the people who came with the "argument", that MMO MUST have grind and RNG. That was my answer to this.

As said: Read, then write.

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Please - try not to see it, try to have fun with the Gold Saucer as a funpark and not as an elitist shop...

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That's why I opened this thread. At the moment it is no fun park. People play it for a while, because it is new. Then they see the horrible grind and RNG mechanic and yes, of course they will probably continue do to the daily cactpot and weekly lottery, but you don't need the Gold Saucer for this, this you could do by mogry mail...

And for you again: This is not about me, it's about the system in a whole and how many players, who don't dare to write here because of all the aggression and such, got problems with it and are annoyed. People who want to play a game, not grind like working in a factory.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

A lottery of that kind should not be part of a game like FF14 anyway, actually any kind of lottery should not exist at all, not in a game, not in RL, if you would inform yourself about the backgrounds, you would know this. They are ruining lifes every single day.

If it is all about luck, then they should just use it everywhere. Why something like coil drops or poetry marks? Just RNG this, too. Everything for free, all you need is luck.

RNG is ruining this game. It's the one thing almost every player I ask, who leaves or plans to leave FF14 mentions, that the RNG is ruining it for them. And yes, they are getting over it. By leaving this game behind and playing something else.

I don't think, that's the goal of Square, to lose players. But, well, maybe I'm wrong.

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...I kinda know its stupid to responsed to that, but what the hell

First: Sure, lotterys are ruining lifes. So does a lot of things. Videogames for example, please remove them because there are people who cant handle them. If you cant handle lotterys, please dont strip away my sort of fun, yeah? Also: with the limitation of one ticket per day, bought with a currency that is only used in the gold saucer I can hardly see who the cacpots are ruining someones life in Eorzea... Also: Now you're mentioning how bad and somehow dangerous lotterys are to do what? Asked for them to be removed completly? Wasnt it about "Give me the first price everyday!" when you started this thread?

Second: While I agree that they shouldnt use luck everywhere... this is a damn lottery - is it meant to be about luck, because thats the point of it. Ask for them to remove luck everywhere else in the game except in a lottery...

Third: I understand people who are complaining about RNG in coils, WoD, dungeons... I cant understand you though - you are complaining about a tiny, little piece of the game that was meant to be pure fun. That isnt about progression. That takes you like 5 minutes everyday (+100 MGP, which you will most likely get back - which is enough for me at last. I'm having fun solwing this little puzzle, picking a hopefully good line and checking if it was the best - had even a good laugh yesterday because nearly all my lines added up to 16 - which equals 72 MGP, but seeing that really made me giggle, maybe I'm weird?).

If this tiny little bit of a game that you enjoy otherwise is causing you so much anger and if you totally fail to see the point in it (lottery=luck) - maybe just leave it?

I'm pretty sure people might quite the game (or at least threat they will) because of bad RNG luck... but not because of bad luck in the mini-cacpot... so raising this point in a topic like this doesnt help to take you any serious...

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

What about doing Coil? T13? Or not good enough for this? Or do the fishing achievement. There you got your terrible RNG grind. This game already served you very well. Gold Sauce was presented as a place for all players. But it's not. It's RNG again, it's grind again. And many, many people hate it. They just don't post here, because they lost their "faith" in Square and don't want to get flamed by people like you. They just leave. First the Gold Saucer and - from their speaking - the game, when Square continues this. Because they can spend those monthly fees also on a real lottery ticket, if they want something like that.

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Sorry for the doppel-post but after seeing this... what are you trying to do here? Turning a thread where people tried to explain to you why luck in a lottery is totally fine into some sort of your own general rant about the game? I'm pretty sure there are points in which this game can improve (even though I'm more or less fine with it as it is for the moment) - but you're going totally offtopic here. You wanted to discuss the fairness of luck in a lottery and people told you that theres nothing to discuss because lotterys are meant to be about luck and even though everyone of us lost it more often than getting the first prize we're okay with it because we know that this is how a lottery works - it would take the fun out of it (at least for me) if I'd just go to the gold saucer everyday to get my 10k for 100...
Making this a general "What is bad and unfair in this game"-thread is not excatly a clever move. People will insist to tell you why a lottery which includes luck is fine - if you want to discuss the rest you may go and open up another thread to rant about all that RNG?

Also: While I can understand that RNG bothers people a lot when it comes to real progression (coil loot, WoD loot, Zodiakgrind) I dont really see the problem with the gold saucer - its all about vanity. You dont have to make it a grind. You can play around a bit, just enjoy it. Cant you play a game just for fun and not only for the reward? Are you only aiming for the carrot? Please - try not to see it, try to have fun with the Gold Saucer as a funpark and not as an elitist shop...

Out of all the mini games and activities in the GS the mini lotto aka scratch cards is probably the best balanced thing there for reward vs effort and low risk of ending up with less than cost to buy. Yes the scratch cards have some luck applicable in as far as range of cards might get and possible number locations varying as they should but it is very hard to not make a profit on them if have basic understanding of mathematics, takes a few seconds to complete too. The limit of once a day is related to the fact you can from time to time win a reasonably large sum of MGP on it which is fine. Out of all the things to whine about from GS activities, this is the least whine worthy to me. It is pretty easy to almost always make a profit on them if take your time and work out the probabilities per line in comparison to row total prize listings.

Just posting to say that the Mini Cacpot is currently my favourite thing in the game! A little bit of skill, a little bit of luck and the chance for a real reward every day. Captures the spirit of the Gold Saucer perfectly in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

I try my best to keep them, I'm telling them, that Square may change this, that they wrote here and there, that they want to reduce the RNG and grind. And then another thing goes online, this time Gold Saucer and again: RNG and grind.

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A few things here... You said in an earlier post that you are a game designer. So could you tell me how they could reduce RNG and grind? MMOs are RNG and grind. Heck, single-player RPGs are RNG and grind. That's just how it is. Reducing RNG and grind in a MMO makes the game less time consuming, which makes it so that everyone runs out of things to do, and leaves before the next patch. Reducing RNG and grind in a single-player RPG would be reducing the difficulty level.

In my opinion, you can't reduce RNG and grind. You can really only reduce RNG, but the grind will always be there. This is a pretty basic fact about MMOs and RPGs. You can't make a MMORPG or RPG without it relying heavily on a grind.

As for the Gold Saucer, it has to have RNG and grind. It has to have RNG due to the fact that there is a lottery. It has to have a grind because this is a MMO. If there is no RNG or grind, that is called a hand-out. If your concern is the that you are limited to only a couple of options for grinding, then please just wait until they expand the Gold Saucer. It was just released, and they plan on adding a lot to it in the future.

EDIT: I'd like to add, since I know it will be brought up. Yes, you feel that the Gold Saucer is a "Fun Park", and so maybe it shouldn't be part of the MMO grind. Here's the thing: It was designed after the Gold Saucer from FFVII, which you know, and the FFVII Gold Saucer was a grind, mixed with some RNG. If you really think about it, this Gold Saucer is a lot like the original. The original was designed with grind and RNG, so this one was as well.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

If you don't read a thread, don't answer to it, okay?

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pretty much everyone here is disagreeing with you. Take the hint, and stop accusing others of what you're very obviously guilty of.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

@ Vidu
Read the thread. The problem is not the lottery, the problem is, that there is nothing to compensate it but a terrible grind. And no, gaming is not even near the disastrous effect of lottery in RL, there are WORLDS between.

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...are you serious?! You're responding to post like THIS? Adding stuff to one of the posts you've written before so everyone will read your comment on a statment s/he hasnt even seen yet? Well, I should've known because I was reading through the thread actually and you did that before... poor attitude and style, my dear...

I've re-readed the title and your first post again and I kinda see why you dont understand the answers you're getting here - but you didnt choose your words very well, no offense. You seem to complain about how unfair it is that some people dont have to "grind" (I still dont see that anyone has to grind content that is only meant to be funny and only give vanity rewards as much as I'd like to have that mount&gear myself) - you wanted the mini-cacpot "fairer" - at least thats how I understand your title that refery exactly to the mini-cacpot - not the MGP-grind. You didnt asked for a raised amount of MGP in chocobo racing, triple triad, gates, minigames... no you asked for making luck-based games "fairer". In the way you choose title and original statment you made people response in a certain way and you had to face the terrible truth that people are fine with luck in a lottery - that doesnt mean that they're fine with MGP being a grind and maybe some of those who are against you when you say "make lotterys fair, remove RNG from mini-cacpot!" would agree with you if you'd say "raise the reward of MGP from Chocobo-Racing/Triple Traid/whatever".

...also you started that poor comparsion... are you, aside from being a game developer, who believes that people dont want to play luck-based (mini)games, also a psychiatrist that you can tell that lotterys are doing more harm to people than videogames when it comes to the point of being addicted? (I dont want to discuss this topic, certainly not here - I just cant stand the point of this poor argumentation and totally missing of the point I tried to make. I choose videogames because thats obviously a fitting topic here - could have also said that there are a lot of people who are addicted to alcohol - do you wanna remove that from rl? Also: I still dont see who making the lottery "fairer" would harm people less? If your rl-point only aims against people loosing money because of lotterys I've already explained why that cant happen in-game - also you'd miss the real problem lotterys&gambeling can do to people... which is addiction, the ruined life is more of a symptom that comes form that... and it cant happen in that form in Eorzea - unless someone decides to create more and more accounts to be able to play the minicacpot about 100 times a day - with 100 different characters ofc... very unlikely, that this happens, isnt it? Also: for someone whos ruining his life with lotterys it doesnt matter so much if he wins or looses - thats why it is ruining his life ofc - by making a luckbased game "fairer" it wouldnt be less "dangerous" for that person - except in rl ofc where he could pay his bills with that money. But, again: that doesnt affect this game. you dont have to pay bills with MGP, you can buy some cool-looking vanity-stuff with it, thats all. So, to sum it up a little: I dont even get why you raised this comparsion at all... I kinda dont know anymore why I tried to explain why it is bad except from the point that I'm getting angry about how you're twisting every word someone says in here)

This thread has to be a joke. While I do feel that FFXIV lives by the motto "Progression is for the lucky", this is a -casino-. You complain about MGP being needed for chocobo raising, but you can very easily get all the MGP you need -for- chocobo raising/coverings simply by -racing chocobos-. I've won far more from TT and Chocobo racing than I ever have from the mini or jumbo cactpot, but that doesn't mean there's a problem with mini or jumbo cactpot.

The RNG aspect of the Gold Saucer is only a problem if you're looking to the lottery as your primary source of MGP income. And, like in real life, if you're relying on the lottery to get what you need/want, you're doing something wrong.

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Originally Posted by Mordermi

In my opinion, you can't reduce RNG and grind. You can really only reduce RNG, but the grind will always be there. This is a pretty basic fact about MMOs and RPGs. You can't make a MMORPG or RPG without it relying heavily on a grind.

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Infact you could reduce a grind ofc - by making stuff easier to obtain, in this case: raising the MGP-reward you're getting from anything else in the gold saucer by a bit - I dont believe it would harm anyone or would people make leave the game because of "nothing to do" if MGP-rewards would be raised by 50% or so - but I also kinda believe that SE calculated the rewards carefully, might get raised in the future, prices might drop, new stuff will be added etc. etc. I would rather give it a few month than ranting about it - specially about luck-based stuff - after 2 weeks because I dont have my shiny mount yet...

Saying "it has to be a grind because this is a MMO" is a bit... brief - not everything in a MMO has to be a grind and devs could&should think of other ways to keep players busy - but still in the end some sort of grind will be necassary since they cant add new stuff every week obviously. Grinding for vanity, like you do in the gold saucer, is one of the better things to implement (at least if you're asking me...)

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Originally Posted by Vidu

Infact you could reduce a grind ofc- snipped

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I agree. It can be reduced, and possibly with no harm. Not everything in a MMO has to be a grind, but there has to be a grind. If we're talking about the game in general, I could think of some things that RNG or grind could be eased up on. Talking about the Gold Saucer, I think it is just fine for now. I'm sure SE is taking future updates into consideration. There will be more ways to earn MGP. We just have to take easy, and realize that we're not going to have the new outfits, mounts, minions, and cards in the first two weeks (I know you realize this. This point isn't really aimed at you.)

Also, I guess I chose my wording poorly. There doesn't have to be a grind here because it's a MMO, but because it rewards things in the MMO. If there is no grind, then the might as well send the Gambler and bunny outfits out to everyone via Moogle Mail.

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Originally Posted by Mordermi

A few things here... You said in an earlier post that you are a game designer. So could you tell me how they could reduce RNG and grind? MMOs are RNG and grind. Heck, single-player RPGs are RNG and grind. That's just how it is. Reducing RNG and grind in a MMO makes the game less time consuming, which makes it so that everyone runs out of things to do, and leaves before the next patch. Reducing RNG and grind in a single-player RPG would be reducing the difficulty level.

In my opinion, you can't reduce RNG and grind. You can really only reduce RNG, but the grind will always be there. This is a pretty basic fact about MMOs and RPGs. You can't make a MMORPG or RPG without it relying heavily on a grind.

As for the Gold Saucer, it has to have RNG and grind.

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Strange question. RNG and grind is just there to buy time. It's there to avoid, that people play - for example - a dungeon one time, get their item and will not play it again, because there is nothing to get for them anymore.

Square actually implemented things, which still reward players to do a dungeon again, for example the roulette bonus.
As said before, RNG can be a good thing, when it is used to bring some randomness into a game, so you don't have the exact same monsters at the same place and so on.
RNG in drop mechanic can also mean, that people are feeling lucky, because they get something they want - by luck.
On its downside, if there is no mechanic, which somehow guaranties an drop after a random amount of times, people begin to feel pranked, because no matter how hard they try, they never get what they want - by bad luck.

Good luck: fine.
Bad luck: very, very bad.

That is one of the core design rules of game design.
People like to have luck, so let them have luck, this will make them feel good and they will like the game.
People hate to have bad luck, so avoid the possibility for bad luck like hell, because it will make player feel bad and they will start to hate the game.

As written before:
If a game guarantees a win after 100 wins, but also got the possibility, that you get it earlier before, people go for that 100 wins and will feel good, when they don't need them. You got RNG, but not as core mechanic, but as an extra. -> Fine.
If you got something like Gaius, a card with a 1% drop chance, indeed people will feel lucky, who get it and even more lucky when they get it after the first try, what is indeed possible. But everyone who is doing this over and over and over again, 100, 200, 500, 1000 times, and never see it, will develop a grudge against the mechanic, the game, the developers. -> Bad.

For grinding:
The definition of grinding means, that you have to do something stupid, easy and boring, you would never do that much times, but the game forces you to do it, because it's the only way to reach goal x.

Grinding can be easily avoided, by providing a much wider spread source for such things and especially combining rewards with fun activities. Gold Saucer easily got this possibility, the problem is, that most of the fun activities are far too weak or pure RNG. Even the most optimal source needs an catastrophic grind, much worse than everything else seen in this - and many other - games.

By simply raising the reward of GATES, Chocobo Races and other TT activities, Square would give the players more sources to gain their items, without the need to grind one specific TT enemy.

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Reducing RNG and grind in a single-player RPG would be reducing the difficulty level.

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Grinding is not difficult. It's time consuming, that's all. A grind can easily be done by a bot. And that's the point. When you see as a developer, that people start to use bots, you should know, that something is not running smoothly, that the specific content is too boring (easy and repetitive). The optimal choice for a game designer is, to plan an element, people would even do without any reward. And then add an reward for the extra kick.

You don't need grind at all. Look at thousand of online games, you can not level up or gain items. People play it, because they are fun. There is no carrot, they will not gain any reward for a win, no xp, no item, no gold, nothing. Just the fun to play. No grind at all, still people play it for years. So your point is invalid.

People are getting bored by grind. If they can only do a few specific things. That's why they leave. Square is doing a good job with content here. They can do an even better job, I'm sure of this and FF14 is young and there is a lot, which can and possibly will be added. No need to build in a grind. Grinding is simply just an ultra lazy game design. You stretch something, which would not last a single week to months. It's a dirty trick and while it works here and there, it stays bad game design. And I don't think, that Square needs this. I think, they are much better than that. They showed this often enough.

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pretty much everyone here is disagreeing with you. Take the hint, and stop accusing others of what you're very obviously guilty of.

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As said, your opinion does not matter, because you got no point You are loud and team up, but this is no argument for anything. When everyone is crying for war and a single person is saying no, this one single person is still right. You are simply very egoistic, people who don't care for others, that's what you are saying in all your posts. You would lose NOTHING when Square would also look at the mass of other players. The would profit from this - and exactly that is the only point you got, that you don't want other players to profit, too. Pure egoism.

@ Vidu
Again, you refer to the title and do not care about the posts I made. So either you did not read them or you did not understand them. No matter what, your posts make no sense for me this way. When you ignore my posts, there is no point to have any conversation with you.
The point about lottery: I'm educated and informed about such things. It's actually even part of my job to know about them. "Evil" designers are indeed using psychological tricks. They are like drug dealers, you get something for free and then they milk you. There are many tricks like this you can use to trick people, making them addicted. If you don't care for such things, if you don't care for the problem, lottery is causing, it's fine. But then just admit this. - Yes, you can't get bankrupt in Eorza. Never said this. I'm writing here to Square to help them satisfying more players, not only a few grinders, who are easily to satisfy anyway. As said: just add a golden hat for 10.000.000 MGP, done. Happy grinding. Takes a few minutes, maybe a few hours, when you want to give it a special design. You have satisfied all the grinders and can leave the rest for normal and casual players, so for those, Gold Saucer was made for, listening to Square.

@ Madigari
Gold Saucer has never been a casino and if, it would be a bad one. A casino would have much more, would have poker, slot machines, roulette and many more. At max, Gold Saucer, as it is, is a lotto shop. What kind of casino shall that be, when you can only play 1 time per day and an addtional 1 time per week. The original Gold Saucer was a fun park. And the Gold Saucer in FF14 should be, too. It's on a good way, the grind and RNG is the only thing in the way.

Play FF7 when you want to know how Gold Saucer should feel like. There was not Lottery. There was just fun and you earned your GP this way. You could spend hours there, but not in a grind.

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Also, I guess I chose my wording poorly. There doesn't have to be a grind here because it's a MMO, but because it rewards things in the MMO. If there is no grind, then the might as well send the Gambler and bunny outfits out to everyone via Moogle Mail.

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How often I hear things like that. You tell people, that something is too extreme and then they take the other extreme to attack the critic. No, not for free. Just more in reach for the mass of normal gamers, who do not live in this game. It's vanity. Yes. Exactly. So there is really not need for such a massive grind.

They could just bring in more prizes, maybe some other vanity stuff you only got RNG till now. Or new vanitiy stuff, like color food for your race chocobo. Or the Onions for your own chocobo. It would add another source.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Square actually implemented things, which still reward players to do a dungeon again, for example the roulette bonus.

For grinding:
The definition of grinding means, that you have to do something stupid, easy and boring, you would never do that much times, but the game forces you to do it, because it's the only way to reach goal x.

By simply raising the reward of GATES, Chocobo Races and other TT activities, Square would give the players more sources to gain their items, without the need to grind one specific TT enemy.

Look at thousand of online games, you can not level up or gain items. People play it, because they are fun. There is no carrot, they will not gain any reward for a win, no xp, no item, no gold, nothing. Just the fun to play. No grind at all, still people play it for years.

Play FF7 when you want to know how Gold Saucer should feel like.

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Alright. I'll try to keep this short, and touch on all of these points.

1. The roulette bonus - It gives players bonus currency, which is used in some sort of grind. They are grinding currency for new gear. I don't understand how this avoids a grind.

2. Grinding - My statement about lowering the difficulty level to remove grinding in a single-player RPG was not due to difficulty of grinding. But without a grind, you would have to make it so that every enemy and boss battle is beatable at level 1, which would remove nearly all difficulty from the game.

3. Raising MGP rewards - I don't really see a problem with this, but you'd still have to repeat activities over and over again to reach your goal, which is grinding.

4. Online games - I'm not sure what you mean here. Like flash games? Games that aren't RPGs. Sure, there are a lot of games with no grind. Many old school games and flash games have no grind, but they are a completely different genre. The original Mario wasn't a grind. Neither is Cargo Bridge. But those aren't MMORPGs. Those have a beginning and an end. MMOs are supposed to go on forever. There has to be something to slow you down. You can't just beat all of the levels, and then be done. Though you say people play for years, so I don't think those are the games of which you speak. So can I assume F2P games? If so, I'm not sure where you get "thousand" from.

5. FFVII Gold Saucer - There were games, which were fun, and you earned GP from them. If you wanted to get the best prizes, then you needed to play these games over and over and over and over. How is that any different than the Gold Saucer in FFXIV, and how is that not a grind?

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

How often I hear things like that. You tell people, that something is too extreme and then they take the other extreme to attack the critic. No, not for free. Just more in reach for the mass of normal gamers, who do not live in this game. It's vanity. Yes. Exactly. So there is really not need for such a massive grind.

They could just bring in more prizes, maybe some other vanity stuff you only got RNG till now. Or new vanitiy stuff, like color food for your race chocobo. Or the Onions for your own chocobo. It would add another source.

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I think it is all well within reach. I've earned 150k MGP already, and I play for 4-5 hours a week. That's hardly living in the game. It's only been two weeks. There will be more added to the Gold Saucer in the future.

Also.. I was not attacking anyone. I said if there was NO grind, then they would just be giving stuff away. If you say that it doesn't need to be as much of a grind as it is, then I can kind of see where you are coming from, and you did say that. However, you also said "You don't need grind at all." Which is it?

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Originally Posted by Mordermi

Alright. I'll try to keep this short, and touch on all of these points.

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It is only grinding, when you have to do a specific repetitive (for example killing a specific monster or defeating a specific enemy in TT) over and over again.

If you got many equal effective activities, you can chose from, it's no grind.

It's grinding, when you have to do the same dungeons 200 times.
If you can chose from a variety of dungeons, it's less till no grindy.
If you even got more, other sources (equally effective), it's no grind anymore at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grindin...ideo_gaming%29

Flash games can be such games, but there are also many others. Just take RTS. Why should people play it more than one time? It's not like you gain xp or items for doing this. But it's fun. So you do it again. And people are doing it for years, just like MMOs. They beat all levels. But then they do it again. Because they like it. They don't need a carrot.

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I think it is all well within reach. I've earned 150k MGP already, and I play for 4-5 hours a week. That's hardly living in the game. It's only been two weeks. There will be more added to the Gold Saucer in the future.

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4-5 hours a week? That would be 8-10 hours you spend in Goldsaucer, if you did nothing else. And you earned 150k MGP? How? Explain this, please. Or do you mean 4-5 hours a day?

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

It is only grinding, when you have to do a specific repetitive (for example killing a specific monster or defeating a specific enemy in TT) over and over again.

If you got many equal effective activities, you can chose from, it's no grind.

Flash games can be such games, but there are also many others. Just take RTS. Why should people play it more than one time? It's not like you gain xp or items for doing this. But it's fun. So you do it again. And people are doing it for years, just like MMOs. They beat all levels. But then they do it again. Because they like it. They don't need carrot.

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Doing the same three dungeons, or even ten dungeons over and over again via roulette is still a grind. Yes, it might make it a little better since you don't have to do the same one over and over, but it's still a grind.

Flash games and RTS games are a completely different genre. My post was about MMOs and RPGs.

As for the MGP I've earned: I've won the 10k lottery 4 times, and I've played a lot of TT. The earnings from TT, plus the MGP for cards, plus MGP from mini cactpot (10k, and some lesser winnings). I probably played a little more than my average last week. You could maybe throw an extra 2 hours or so on there, but that's about it.

Edit: I've also purchased a lot of MGP with gil.. Scratch that. It doesn't count toward the earned MGP achievement.

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Originally Posted by Mordermi

Doing the same three dungeons, or even ten dungeons over and over again via roulette is still a grind. Yes, it might make it a little better since you don't have to do the same one over and over, but it's still a grind.

Flash games and RTS games are a completely different genre. My post was about MMOs and RPGs.

As for the MGP I've earned: I've won the 10k lottery 4 times, and I've played a lot of TT. The earnings from TT, plus the MGP for cards, plus MGP from mini cactpot (10k, and some lesser winnings). I probably played a little more than my average last week. You could maybe throw an extra 2 hours or so on there, but that's about it.

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Games are games. Since RTS are able to make people play them for years, MMOs can do this, too. Only bad MMOs need grind, because they lack content and can't hold players without a carrot. Do you think, FF14 is a bad MMO? Do you think, Square needs this carrot? That they are not good enough? I don't. I think they can do better. I'm sure of this.

Lucky you @ 4 times 10k. That alone is worth over 4 hours of TT grind. I know dozens of players, who didn't win it a single time.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Games are games. Since RTS are able to make people play them for years, MMOs can do this, too. Only bad MMOs need grind, because they lack content and can't hold players without a carrot. Do you think, FF14 is a bad MMO? Do you think, Square needs this carrot? That they are not good enough? I don't. I think they can do better. I'm sure of this.

Lucky you @ 4 times 10k. That alone is worth over 4 hours of TT grind. I know dozens of players, who didn't win it a single time.

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Okay. I'm honestly asking this. How does a MMO not have grind, and stay in business? How does a MMO keep people from just blowing through all content, and then leaving?

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

4-5 hours a week? That would be 8-10 hours you spend in Goldsaucer, if you did nothing else. And you earned 150k MGP? How? Explain this, please. Or do you mean 4-5 hours a day?

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I might still be drunk but, all ive heard you say is waaah waaah waaah(yes I read the entire thread!). its a lotto its random, get over it. stop being jealous of your neighbor or fellow gamers who win.

as for other games, they are all a grind, you don't play a game for the first time and beat it. you have to die, and redo the level, or beat it with the best score, or w/e every game is repetitive, just cause you don't gain a level or w/e doesn't mean u don't grind it out. you actually gain a level in real life. you become a better player! you play it on harder difficulty levels.


also, ive won the 10k mgp multiple times on my main and my alt characters.



have a good day.

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Originally Posted by Mordermi

Okay. I'm honestly asking this. How does a MMO not have grind, and stay in business? How does a MMO keep people from just blowing through all content, and then leaving?

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exactly, the grind is what makes older content relevant. you have to revisit the low level dungeons, you have to keep doing fates and hunts.

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Its a lottery, life isn't fair, why do expect this to be any different. Your luck sucks, have some fun, and get over it please. These threads are just plain ridiculous.

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Your egoistic hate is ridiculous. Get over this egoism and start to think about other players. It's a multiplayer game, coop, not PvP, so you REALLY should think that way and not only "me, me, me".

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Why is it all about me? You made this thread, its all about you. You're the one who wants this changed, you're the one who doesn't like lotterys, and you obviously don't like the system. But lets be real, the system is fine. It gives you goals to work toward, and if thats to hard for you, you should go find 'Hello kitty Island adventure'. Git Gud.

P.S: Don't ever do anything else in this game if you hate RNG and luck base stuff so much. You'll literally give yourself an aneurysm.

OP stop acting like you speak for everyone in this game. Many people such as myself have never even seen a Cactpot ticket where 10k was an option, yet you are the only one on here pouting about it. Oh I only got 300 on my last ticket, big deal it is a lottery anyone who chooses to play it knows exactly what it is. You act like people lose their lottery ticket (or even if they win but not the jackpot) and feel bad about it when I have never seen a single person outside yourself complain about it. Randomness will exist in a casino, RNG/grind will exist in an MMO. If you don't enjoy it, don't do it.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

OP stop acting like you speak for everyone in this game. Many people such as myself have never even seen a Cactpot ticket where 10k was an option, yet you are the only one on here pouting about it. Oh I only got 300 on my last ticket, big deal it is a lottery anyone who chooses to play it knows exactly what it is. You act like people lose their lottery ticket (or even if they win but not the jackpot) and feel bad about it when I have never seen a single person outside yourself complain about it. Randomness will exist in a casino, RNG/grind will exist in an MMO. If you don't enjoy it, don't do it.

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I speak not for everyone, just for the mass of casual and normal gamers. And they are the majority. You people know nothing about game development and the statistics of MMO's. But you think you do. That's the main problem in your argumentation (if there is any).

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I might still be drunk but, all ive heard you say is waaah waaah waaah(yes I read the entire thread!).

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If you really would have read the thread, you should have noticed, that I give a shit about childish insults.

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Okay. I'm honestly asking this. How does a MMO not have grind, and stay in business? How does a MMO keep people from just blowing through all content, and then leaving?

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90%+ of MMO gamers don't blown through content in the first place. And I can repeat it: you hold players with FUN.

"Fun comes first. If it isn't fun, you're doing it wrong." -Naoki Yoshida
See, he knows it. It does not work out as planed sometimes, thing like that happen, but he knows, what is important. Grind - by its definition - is never fun.

I made by far enough examples, what you can do to avoid grinding. If you don't understand it or ignore it, fine.

Maybe the main problem is, that most of you are so much into grinding, that you can not even think of something else anymore. That you can not accept the idea, that something could be fun just for itself. And that it is nothing to be proud of, to do something easy 10.000 times. It's unhealthy, for your your brain and moutharm, that's all.

You see, below 5% of people (most times even less) are grinding. If a developer starts to focus his game on these few people, he acts against the other 95%+. And that without a single reason, since it would be easy to give the people, for example, a normal Fenrir and a grinder Fenrir. Those 95% still can have fun and you can grind the shit out of it, to get your golden uber fenrir. Would cost them almost nothing to do this and no one would have to leave

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

"Fun comes first. If it isn't fun, you're doing it wrong." -Naoki Yoshida
See, he knows it. It does not work out as planed sometimes, thing like that happen, but he knows, what is important. Grind

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This is intresting, but lets break this down. Fun to people is subjective. What they deem as fun, and what you or other deem as fun are 2 different things. What your failing to grasp is that, your not having fun, by losing. But we can't all be winners. People have to lose.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

I made by far enough examples, what you can do to avoid grinding. If you don't understand it or ignore it, fine.

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You have not actually given real examples of how to avoid grinding. You just say things like "If it's fun, then it's not grinding." Also, grinding can be fun. I'm grinding by playing TT over and over for MPG, or to get cards, but I have fun playing TT.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

Maybe the main problem is, that most of you are so much into grinding, that you can not even think of something else anymore. That you can not accept the idea, that something could be fun just for itself. And that it is nothing to be proud of, to do something easy 10.000 times. It's unhealthy, for your your brain and moutharm, that's all.

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Maybe the main problem is that you can't accept that these things are fun just by themselves, and that doing them repeatedly and earning all the MGP you need is just a result of doing it for fun.

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Originally Posted by RobinRethiel

If you really would have read the thread, you should have noticed, that I give a shit about childish insults.

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not an insult, just a fact.