Once you start giving out the Carbontwines

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

One general question.
The expansion is due to hit in what, 2 months? 2.51 on the 24th, 2.52 late March, then 3.0?
As soon as the level cap goes to 60, the entire gearing curve will change.
Let me give you an example. In RIFT, I went into the expansion at lvl 50 with pretty much the best available gear. By lvl 55 higher quality quest rewards and dungeon drops were better than my lvl 50 raid gear. By lvl 58, common mob drops were BETTER in main stats, weapon damage, and defense, than my lvl 50 raid gear.

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Different schools of design have different perspectives on that. Doing that is a scarily good way of making former Endgame content useless and XIV has a lot more of that then most games at this point. More than half the current content is level 50 "Endgame" stuff right now. At worst, i100 should be expected as Heavensward entry level gear with i130 being Alexander Raid entry gear.

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How long will it take people go get from 50 to 60?
When the game launched, people went from 1 to 50 in a week. I would not be surprised if people go form 50 to 60 in a week as well.

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This is a complete mystery right now.

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Originally Posted by Kumabear76

As it stands, i130 gear is a reward for FCoB.

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It's not. You can get to 130 without stepping inside Coil. Dreadwyrm gear is the exclusive reward for Coil and no one is asking to make it available elsewhere. They purposefully released means items to upgrade your Ironworks outside of Coil to help people boost their item level and help them ease the difficulty if for whatever reason they can't do it at 120. So far, it's all good, catch up patch is doing its work. The problem is... where does WoD gear fit in all of this? For some, especially white mages, nowhere. It's pointless. If you could upgrade it to 130 it wouldn't be, but with mind being more important than any other stat, a 130 iron work piece with less desireable secondary stats is better than a WoD piece with the ones I would want.

People are still doing Coil now that 130 is available to people outside of Coil, so people quitting raiding is not an issue. Actually, more people could try it now that their stats are higher and have more room for errors.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

While I think that non-raiders should be able to upgrade their gear, I also think that non-raid gear should either be 5-10 ilvls below raid gear and only be upgradable to the same ilvl with a raid drop OR the upgrade material can be obtainable from elsewhere BUT the upgrade item should not be obtainable in higher quantities than raiders have access to, especially not from completely braindead content, like it is now...

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I totally agree. What's sad is that there are basically two options. Mindless, skilless hunts or very hard content that absolutely requires you to have a consistent, collaborative group of 7 other people you trust. There is no in-between. I can honestly say that, over the last few months of being in a group and seeing how many flakes/no-shows/rage quitters there are out there, finding that good static is probably the hardest part about FCOB, maybe even harder than the content itself.

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Originally Posted by Utsu

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So why do you think that "raiders" should only be able to obtain said gear in FCoB? What's stopping raiders from doing WoD for gear?
Generally nothing - as I am a raider and still do WoD for gear. (Some pieces are even technically better then the i130 equivalent due to sub stats).
If your argument is that players that don't do FCoB don't "need" i130, then what is your argument for raiders to have alternative options for certain slots to better min/max their sub stats?

I think gating the strongest weapons in the game behind the final turn in the highest raid is enough to give raiders the "status". They don't need every other slot to be superior to other content.

After all - poetics gear is equivalent (and more favourable in certain slots) than Dreadwyrm gear, and you don't need to take a step into T10 to get the i130 versions this late in the patch.

Making WoD gear comparable only widens the scope for potential BiS, not just for "casual" players, but for raiders too.

I want to remind you that this game is not a competition (aside from the very small minority that push for world firsts). If you are playing for bragging rights outside of that league, then a full Dreadwyrm set isn't going to assist you on that goal.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

I totally agree. What's sad is that there are basically two options. Mindless, skilless hunts or very hard content that absolutely requires you to have a consistent, collaborative group of 7 other people you trust. There is no in-between. I can honestly say that, over the last few months of being in a group and seeing how many flakes/no-shows/rage quitters there are out there, finding that good static is probably the hardest part about FCOB, maybe even harder than the content itself.

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Lol, right? The first boss of Coil is herding the same 8 people into the same instance at the same time every week.

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Originally Posted by Altena

So why do you think that "raiders" should only be able to obtain said gear in FCoB? What's stopping raiders from doing WoD for gear?

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What's stopping non-raiders from doing coil for gear?

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Because ilvl dictates BiS now? NO, the stats dictate what is BiS and WoD, ironworks and Dread all have their own stats meaning anyone of them will be BiS imo Dread still has the best stats out of all 3 sets.

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Except that you know, primary stats are valued to a much higher degree than secondary stats which means iLvL has a much higher impact on BiS than have 10 Determination instead instead of 10 Spell Speed.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Honestly, Utsu, you are not doing yourself any favors at all in dispelling a stigma about raiders being elitists. In fact, you're simply making yourself look more elitist with each post you write.

Working on FCOB now, I can still safely say that people like you that hint (or flat out state) that people that don't do FCOB shouldn't get access to any way to improve their character really get on my nerves. In addition, I think your whole i130 gear is "more than just stats, it's so much more" is total BS. It's stats and e-peen and nothing more.

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Everyone has access to Final Coil, nothing bar your own reasons prevent you from doing it. You want access to some of the best gear, you do the some of the hardest content in the game.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Just because someone disagrees with you on the subject doesn't necessarily mean they're deliberately trying to hold you back or hold you down.

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That does not hold water in this case because his/her position was he/she said multiple times does not understand why people are asking for it to be opened up aka more ilvl130 options outside of coil...which would be fine if no-one told him/her their reasons why but lots of people did tell him/her why and he/she ignored them while repeating that same position. It is not the case of saying do not agree with me so must be...it is actually person x asked a question, x got their answer from multiple people but x chose to ignore it. They do not have to like the answer but it was answered multiple times.

On the second element about if cared or not, if did not care then would not have taken a stance against it or for it yet was clearly against it because very much did care, there is no take a face value when that face value is rooted in fallacy. If someone says they do not believe in god yet spends the next 10 minutes giving reasons why they think god exists...you cannot take their original comment at face value because their latter comment invalidates the former. It's the same thing here, saying do not care yet clearly cares enough to argue against having it for a long time in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Everyone has access to Final Coil, nothing bar your own reasons prevent you from doing it. You want access to some of the best gear, you do the some of the hardest content in the game.

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Yawn. Generic, heard it 5,000 times in other threads, comment of the day. In addition, please learn to read, as I stated right in the comment you quoted that I am already working on FCOB. Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

That does not hold water in this case because his/her position was he/she said multiple times does not understand why people are asking for it to be opened up aka more ilvl130 options outside of coil...which would be fine if no-one told him/her their reasons why but lots of people did tell him/her why and he/she ignored them while repeating that same position.

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Or maybe she truly didn't understand the answers given. Did you miss this post?

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Originally Posted by Utsu

That's not my goal, my goal is to have fun, like you. And optimize my class is my way of having fun on this game. Finding the best ways to play my character is my goal to have fun while playing. Like Ash Ketchum : I WANNA BEEEEE THE VERY BEST *tududu* etc.

And okay for you example, I get it, cheers.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

Nope. You call raiders elitist because you get offended by everything a raider says for some reason.

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i call those who think doing FcoB entitles them to special treatment and that people who have not completed or unlocked it are looked down like a second class citizen. I do Coil and i enjoy it, i like how hard it is but im saying FcoB is for really good raiders and requires very good gear and skill use.

Finding 8 people to do the raids is pretty hard since not everyone can do it. Turn 9 is pretty difficult in terms of learning and mechanics.

Personally I like the raid gear where it is right now and I don't think it needs to be upgraded to i130. My reasoning being that several of the i120 pieces are already bis over both i130 ironworks/dreadwyrm gear.

I do however wish they would remove the lockout for it right off the bat, I despise going through 5-10 runs a week trying to get a few pieces of loot I want and not having a chance to get any reward aside from a handful of tomes and a very low chance at a minion.

There is already a lot of content that gives players a chance to obtain gear better than coil and adding more will just discourage people from doing the hard 8 mans all together.

Also, it's simply not needed in my opinion, i120 is already over geared for practically all content this game has to offer.

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Originally Posted by Elazu

What's stopping non-raiders from doing coil for gear?

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I won't even mention how you completely ignored my actual point. (Well I guess I just did.)

I am sure there are quite a number of reasons. However how is more gear diversity a bad thing? Why limit the highest iLvl to 2 set substats? If "hardcore" players were really hardcore - they would be pushing for optimizing their sub stats, which would include clearing and gathering gear from all sources.

In addition to this, coil drops are based on a luck system. You could be a world first group and never see a specific BiS Dread piece drop.
Luck doesn't equate to being "hardcore". Luck equates to being lucky (or unlucky respectively).

This late in the patch, it honestly doesn't even matter. Non-raiders must be getting close to full i130 by now (minus the weapon) due to poetics + twine from hunts. Adding an extra alternative to BiS is advantageous to both groups.

I always find it funny how non-raiders want the gear faster, but completely forget that raiders will use that avenue for gearing as well therefore breaking end game balance super fast. It's all about them though and screw the side effects on the rest of the game!

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Yawn. Generic, heard it 5,000 times in other threads, comment of the day. In addition, please learn to read, as I stated right in the comment you quoted that I am already working on FCOB. Thanks.

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Quite the irony considering than when I mentioned everyone, it wasn't in reference to you but to that particular bolded part:

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Honestly, Utsu, you are not doing yourself any favors at all in dispelling a stigma about raiders being elitists. In fact, you're simply making yourself look more elitist with each post you write.

Working on FCOB now, I can still safely say that people like you that hint (or flat out state) that people that don't do FCOB shouldn't get access to any way to improve their character really get on my nerves. In addition, I think your whole i130 gear is "more than just stats, it's so much more" is total BS. It's stats and e-peen and nothing more.

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But hey, if you keep hearing it 5,000 more times, maybe you should take the hint about who truly needs to take a second to comprehend the post.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

I always find it funny how non-raiders want the gear faster, but completely forget that raiders will use that avenue for gearing as well therefore breaking end game balance super fast. It's all about them though and screw the side effects on the rest of the game!

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Agreed but at this point, I'm not even surprised anymore. The amount of people who agrees to these kind of ideas seems to willingly forego any semblance of global balance within the game because "I pay the same amount, raiders are elitist, insert other generic anti-raider statement".

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

I always find it funny how non-raiders want the gear faster, but completely forget that raiders will use that avenue for gearing as well therefore breaking end game balance super fast. It's all about them though and screw the side effects on the rest of the game!

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Even funnier are the ones that insist raiders should "wait their turn" to do this content instead of competing with non-raiders for the hunts, since the upgrade materials are also available through FCoB.

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

Even funnier are the ones that insist raiders should "wait their turn" to do this content instead of competing with non-raiders for the hunts, since the upgrade materials are also available through FCoB.

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Yeah, the hundreds of examples of "you're selfish because I didn't get what I want and me me me that's not fair" are always good for a laugh.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

WoD pieces replacing FCoB pieces as best in slot? No thanks, and I haven't even started Final coil yet.

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This is already the case with some pieces.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Agreed but at this point, I'm not even surprised anymore. The amount of people who agrees to these kind of ideas seems to willingly forego any semblance of global balance within the game because "I pay the same amount, raiders are elitist, insert other generic anti-raider statement".

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Feel free to go into a comprehensive description of how WoD ilvl120 upgrade to ilvl130 would ruin the game or imbalance it. Every person does what they do in this game because they find it fun in one way or another, people would not stop doing coils because WoD offered a way to upgrade from ilvl120 to ilvl130 alongside the option of obtaining also another ilvl130 set from coils.

The only possible impact is people doing coil would only be doing it because they find it fun which is why they should do it in the first place. If it is not fun and people are not doing it for fun then the game is already broken and that would need t be fixed. The answer would not be to blackmail people into doing something they hate because of such restrictions, the answer is making something fun so that they want to do even without the loot restriction.

The phrase which pops to mind is spice is the variety of life, giving people more variety in ilvl130 sets and how to obtain them I consider a good thing. Getting a ilvl130 set from the top tier 24-man raid content and also another set from the 8-man raid content I think would not harm you 8-man coilers but would in fact benefit you all not just in more people geared up to try the coils but also in variety and gear composition you can use. No one has given me reason to believe otherwise.

Finally, I can really answer to the thread now that I understand every points of view !

i130 gear in WoD ? Why not ! But not in the actual WoD, because it's a bit to easy and doesn't need a lot of time/farming (yeah, yeah, RNG).

Solutions :

Atm, i130 is Coil (skill) and Hunting (farm), so,

-> WoD "hardmode" ?
-> More farming ?

More farming could probably be the best solution imo.

PS : Yeah I really didn't understand why non-raiders want i130 gear, now I'm perfectly fine with it, I guess. There is two solutions to get gear, "skill" and "farm" with RNG in both of them. And if skill = farm, Coil = Hunting > WoD = farming tokens. I only talk about ilvl, not "best gear".

So, if ppl want i130 in WoD, they need more "skill" or more "farm", imo. Farm would be the best way as I said, or probably a mix.

Feel free to correct me if I missed something.

Cheers.

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Originally Posted by KaedrianLiang

No one is forcing you to replace gear. continue wearing FCoB pieces as if its some special badge of being "hardcore." Pretty sure titles are meant to be that badge of accomplishment.

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Maybe you should learn to read. I specifically stated I don't even do final coil. I just don't think anything given in the sleep inducing WoD raid should be better then stuff in final coil.

it would be nice if there were more interesting secondary stat choices so that another i130 gear set would actually have some necessity.

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Originally Posted by ScarletDawn

Again why does having to do coil seem like the only way ur aloud to max out your char? People back in (other mmo with pandas) would try max stats without raiding because idk they liked to obtain gear and max out their char.

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Uhh... SE gives people more high ilvl gear than Blizzard. In WoW, if you want the highest ilvl, you better be clearing mythic raids. People were min/maxing with what they had available.

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Originally Posted by Galliano

We need more content of the same calibre offering the same ilvl. If we had 5-6 different forms of content all offering different i130 gear it would be much more fun working out which slots you want from which content and gathering up different friends to tackle the different challenges. As it is now it's either faceroll hunts or rigid static for coil.

I would love to see this go hand in hand with more hard open world content designed for 8 players, poppable boss mobs with hard to obtain pop items, very dangerous areas . .

For dangerous areas it would be cool to have a void that warps you to a harder version of the zone (just change the lighting to make it all dark and ominous and fill it with tough mobs and wandering boss mobs), with that zone still being completely open world (so anybody who has the void unlocked can enter).

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Yes, please. More different types of end game would make this game fun.

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Originally Posted by Utsu

There is two solutions to get gear, "skill" and "farm" with RNG in both of them. And if skill = farm, Coil = Hunting > WoD = farming tokens. I only talk about ilvl, not "best gear".

So, if ppl want i130 in WoD, they need more "skill" or more "farm", imo. Farm would be the best way as I said, or probably a mix.

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A wonderful breakdown of the problem. The carboncoats being handed out via a weekly quest where you must farm all 3 dungeons is a great example of this principle in action as well as the Zodiac weapon questline compared to Raid weapons.

The third option tends to be crafting, but in this game with how materia is these days we can't really count that anymore.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

Maybe you should learn to read. I specifically stated I don't even do final coil. I just don't think anything given in the sleep inducing WoD raid should be better then stuff in final coil.

it would be nice if there were more interesting secondary stat choices so that another i130 gear set would actually have some necessity.

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Most of the WoD wouldnt be BIS and there is also ironworks so having 3 sets at 130 would be nice for getting those stats you want.

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Originally Posted by Utsu

So, if ppl want i130 in WoD, they need more "skill" or more "farm", imo. Farm would be the best way as I said, or probably a mix.

Feel free to correct me if I missed something.

Cheers.

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I don't think anyone in here was suggesting just throwing i130 gear at anyone that did WoD in the first place - the upgrade item would require some degree of farm or similar to obtain in the first place. (Similar to how poetics gear is upgraded currently).

Hell, just throw it in T10 as a guaranteed drop to everyone in the party. Might encourage the non-raiders to at least join a PUG.

They could add a weekly item just like carboncoat or maybe make you pick which upgrade item you take for that week, which would mean you still farm weekly.

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

Sorry, you dont know this and you couldnt know. Here's why: Try beating Odin at item level 95 in Df (you won't win) Try beating Shiva Ex at item level 95 ( I'd love to see the vids of that fight!!!) Point being is not eveyone comes into fights at high item levels, some player will try fights at item level, you gotta overgear for that...trust me. Also, the gear in this patch is a JOKE. Non-Raiders and Non Hardcore players who want to clear stuff are going to need every bit of gear they can get. This argument is a Dead Duck in the water, leave it be. Raiders get the best gear first, everyone else waits. We've waited, now please just let US enjoy our leftovers, thank you very much.

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If that's the minimum ilvl to get in then yes it can be completed even in duty finder. Have I tried those particular fights a minimum ilvl, no dont plan to either. Unlock, clear, never touch again unless helping friend or fc member. That's how I've done all trials. I've went into onlder coils at min ilvl (on an alt) and still managed to come out near the top of dps (if not the top) with ridiculously over geared players. The ilvl requirement is not the ilvl requirement needed to beat content. Example T9: was beaten in i90 pre echo and now you cant even enter without being i105. So yes a good player can enter at minimum ilvl and clear. Ilvl requirement and echo is so non raider can be closer to raiders skill.
Also only job I dont recommend being at min ilvl is tanks. Good luck at i95 while everyone else is getting close to i130

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

A wonderful breakdown of the problem. The carboncoats being handed out via a weekly quest where you must farm all 3 dungeons is a great example of this principle in action as well as the Zodiac weapon questline compared to Raid weapons.

The third option tends to be crafting, but in this game with how materia is these days we can't really count that anymore.

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A quest like "purify one piece of Demon Armor of your choice" would be amazing imo. With Allagan Catalysts and some CT farming.

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Originally Posted by Altena

I don't think anyone in here was suggesting just throwing i130 gear at anyone that did WoD in the first place

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Yeah, you're right, sorry !

I just want to pop my head in cause this is an argument I have quite often in-game. I think enough has been said for both sides by this point (although it took quite a while for defenders of Utsu's side to show up). I'd like to direct everyone to Kumabear76's post. Maybe 2 or 3 people responded to his ideas, and those 2 or 3 only chose to correct him about 130 being available to only raiders atm. Nobody chose to address the meat of his position which is really a more thorough explanation to Utsu's and my side of the argument.

I always chose to relate this argument to things outside of the video game. I put it very, very simply (probably not the best thing because many of you like to tear holes through generalizations or like to derail the argument completely by strawmanning); Skill/Effort = Best rewards ... that's the way it is in nature, and that's the way it SHOULD be in-game.

If you aren't doing FCoB by choice (whether you have the skill or not), you should not reap the same benefits that those who ARE putting in more effort do. Please don't even try the "How do you know FCoB is the hardest? For person X, Y, Z Sastasha Normal could be the hardest thing in the world so using the principles of General Relativity they are putting in the same effort as you are." That's horseshit and you know it. (Pardon the language. I like to color my vocabulary)

No, if you are not doing FCoB, you are not putting in the same level of effort, and you do not deserve the best gear in the game regardless of you paying the same subscription fee. The world is not an equal place, so any realistic ROLE-PLAYING game should also not be a fair or just world. I want everyone across the world to know that I hate the mentality that people outputting more in their societies should pander to those asking for handouts.

That breeds even more to develop delicate sensibilities that have no place in a world coming on the brink of over-population. I ask for handouts from time to time ... everyone does most likely, but I don't make it a habit and weave it into my mindset.

TL;DR - You weren't able to reach the highest level OR you CHOSE not to strive for the highest level ... either way, you do not DESERVE the highest rewards. Nature.

P.S. - I know you're gonna tear my argument apart. I am expecting this, and it is how I entertain myself when I am bored.

You know... the point of this possible system happen it is to have a horizontal progress within the vertical progression.
What this means? Instead being locked to only 2 gear sets where in some cases both pieces sucks in the stats having more. I can give one example for whm: between final coil healing belt and ironworks both sucks to me if you have plenty speed already and not like you real need crit; but if there was a belt 130 with pie and det everyone would go after that belt right? I said this example but could have been other.

And at the moment we have only one raid (not counting with WoD) that has highest lvl. Once you clear you have nothing else to raid. Now if you had more choices/raids and being equally hard wouldn't be better? It would be less repetitive, more variety and more to do.

Back in my old days there were 4 sets in WoW exclusively for raiders with highest ilvl

ilvl 66 molten core
ilvl 76 bwl
ilvl 81 aq40
ilvl 88 naxx

Semi causuals can obtain
ilvl 61 zandalar
ilvl 64 cenarion

And for casuals there were
ilvl 59/62 dung set 1 / 2

4 sets which causuals arent able to obtain in vanilla with highest ilvl in game understand? And today people are crying they want same ilvl as raiders to match one and only set for raiders in game here :D.

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Originally Posted by LunnaRavenheart

Back in my old days there were 4 sets in WoW exclusively for raiders with highest ilvl

ilvl 66 molten core
ilvl 76 bwl
ilvl 81 aq40
ilvl 88 naxx

Semi causuals can obtain
ilvl 61 zandalar
ilvl 64 cenarion

And for casuals there were
ilvl 59/62 dung set 1 / 2

4 sets which causuals arent able to obtain in vanilla with highest ilvl in game understand? And today people are crying they want same ilvl as raiders to match one and only set for raiders in game here :D.

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My mentality and position on this never-ending debate also comes from WoW vanilla. I don't like the culture of gradual equality across the board. It does not naturally exist in any environment I know of personally. I would totally like to see more variation in gear sets, but the iLvls need to stick with those that earned them in the hardest difficulty. You don't give 2nd place people the 1st place prize. Participation ribbons are the literal definition of the word Ridiculous IMO.

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Originally Posted by Sorrik

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Page two, near the bottom. All I asked was for this not to turn into another "casuals don't need anything above i90 gear" and frankly, that's exactly what this topic turned into. By the statement I quoted above, non-raiders should only have just hit i100 in patch 2.5 because i90 is the entry requirement for the newest dungeons and WoD.

It was the same last catch up patch. "You shouldn't be allowed to upgrade." "you /have/ to do coil" "stop asking for hand outs."

If the raiding community would get their heads out of their asses for 5 minutes and actually see what people are suggesting and requesting here maybe they might agree with the idea. Another option for upgrading? Something else to do besides coil and hunts to improve? Horizontal progression? TERRIBLE IDEAS!!! Scrap everything and make MORE RAIDS ONLY!! Take away Hildibrand! Make dungeons speedrun only! Force everyone to have parsers so we can kick anyone not doing absolute max DPS!

People wonder why I stopped raiding hardcore...

My issue is not with who gets what get, but making i130 so easily available to everyone, gives everyone the false impression this makes them good.
Yesterday set up a titan pony farm in PF. Go in, and as is completely standard, despite being a farm, the 100 tomes msg appears. Ask who's new. Guy says "I haven't cleared but I'm i128 and know fight!". Dies on first plume.

ilvl USED to be a way to differentiate between who was at a standard you wanted in your party. Now it has no bearing on anything. Bring on the in-game parser (oddly the non-raiders are the ones that oppose this)

@ Nel_Celestine

If you had the foresight to say that sentence on page 2 towards the bottom at all, then you are intelligent enough to know that this topic was INEVITABLY going to get to that point. I was not the person who took it there, by the way; I am only adding my two cents to the 11 pages of readable material. I pointed out a neglected post, and you are actually misrepresenting all of what I said. I did NOT say that I am opposed to "Another option for upgrading"; I encourage that. There should be more gear sets for casuals AND raiders. What I said, in 3 separate posts due to length (sorry), was that the people putting in the effort to complete the HARDEST content (which FCoB is currently) are the only ones that deserve the TOP tier gear. Look to what LunnaRavenheart said this page.

4 sets for those unwilling or unable to conquer the hardest material in the game. 4 sets for those who did manage to accomplish something. The keyword in that last sentence is 'accomplish' ... stop asking for the same iLvl when you did NOT accomplish the same difficulty of content.

Again, for the record, I didn't take this thread here. I am merely perpetuating it (which is probably equally as bad, but I am aware of that).

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Originally Posted by Sorrik

4 sets for those unwilling or unable to conquer the hardest material in the game. 4 sets for those who did manage to accomplish something. The keyword in that last sentence is 'accomplish' ... stop asking for the same iLvl when you did NOT accomplish the same difficulty of content.

Again, for the record, I didn't take this thread here. I am merely perpetuating it (which is probably equally as bad, but I am aware of that).

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that right there is the problem. So the only people allowed to feel good about themselves or accomplished are the hardcore elite raiders. Not say, someone new last week who just beat their First Titan HM or maybe even Titan EX because that's old outdated content and thus not raid content?

ugh. It's really honestly like all raiders want these days are not the challenge but to go "look what I have that you don't. worship me and kiss my feet you filthy losers."