We have finally come full circle, SMN's need help!

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

This point is pretty dated, back to 2.0 where disengagement was a big thing. In the current meta DPS can stay engaged with the boss almost 100% of the time. I think Earthshakers is the only exception this. Even back in 2.0 you stay engaged quite a bit but people didn't bother to figure how to. SMN's still have to turret quite a bit to be even comparable in DPS. I don't like the mobile misconception that is being spread :/

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Pretty much this. Anyone who says that SMNs have 100% uptime clearly doesn't have a lot of experience.

Can I get an actual number to compare? People can say it does 30 dps less than any other DD, but what number are you comparing that 30 less to? Not saying you are lying, I just want tested numbers.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

Pretty much this. Anyone who says that SMNs have 100% uptime clearly doesn't have a lot of experience.

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Nope. I played smn quite a bit when 2.2 was relevant content. I can tell you that dropping a gcd on blm is way more punishing than dropping a gcd on smn. This rings especially true if you are forced to move in ice mode on your thunder cast. (long cast time, and punishing because it fucks up your next chain.) IF any spells is dropped during the 50-70% cast time it hurts that much more, because your dps literally drops to 0 for a whopiing 4+ seconds, minus thunder dot active, and well if it is your thunder cast your dps is 0. Smn never runs into that situation unless they die, and then their dots falls off while dead.

Why summoners have heavy uptime:

Pet is always attacking, letting your pet die is on you not the job balance, especially since it can be moved at any time without dps loss
If one gcd is miss its usually a ruin, you can ruin 2 while moving anyway - not a huge deal, if you are missing the 3 dots again not a big deal it doesn’t screw up your dps for the next 5-6 casts as a result. If you miss 3 gcds in row sure… but why are you missing 3 gcds in a row?
Even if all your dots are down your pet is still attacking
Even while you are dead your dots can still be up
During limit break your dots should be up
Fester, your biggest nuke has no cast time
Energy drain has no cast time
Bane has no cast time
Ruin 2 has no cast time
bio 1 has no cast time
Your swiftcast is a thing to use it on cd you’re not a blm that needs to hold every other swiftcast for flare.
SMN IS the 2nd most mobile dps, and are really good at dealing with mechanics, stop downplaying that.

The two jobs should not do equal dps, BLM needs to be higher dps in order to stay viable when compared to summoner.

Let SMN cross class thunder again

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Originally Posted by Xisin

Why summoners have heavy uptime:



SMN IS the 2nd most mobile dps, and are really good at dealing with mechanics, stop downplaying that.

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Never said that they have less uptime then BLM. Just that they aren't as mobile as people say. You're pet can still attack even if your dots are up? Most of our damage comes from our DoTs. Our pet is 25-30% of our DPS. It's a huge DPS loss if they fall off for any extended period.

your dots are going to be up 90+% of the time. Should be at least. Bio 1 should never be off.

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Originally Posted by Sequora

Never said that they have less uptime then BLM. Just that they aren't as mobile as people say. You're pet can still attack even if your dots are up? Most of our damage comes from our DoTs. Our pet is 25-30% of our DPS. It's a huge DPS loss if they fall off for any extended period.

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30% of your damage that is controlled by a computer and doesn't make mistakes. That is more than melee DD's auto attacks. Having 30% of your damage constantly going is huge.

@ ignorant people who think summoner is blessed with complete mobility-

1- being mobile most of the time also means mana getting drained
2- spamming energy drain to get some mana back or using it while moving to cover up dps is just lol
3- more energy drain= less festers
4- if your pet dies for whatever reason it's really a heavy punishment, whether it's a dps loss or mana loss
5- dots are supposed to be refreshed when they r about to fall 4-5 seconds before to ensure a server tick otherwise it's a dps loss because A) mana getting sucked if you refresh earlier B) less time/gcd to spam ruin in C) making sure every other CD aligns with your dot'ing time if you are going to use raging strikes or contagion etc. BUT for the sake for being mobile most summoners refresh them earlier before certain mechanics to be able to move WHICH is a dps loss.
6- swiftcast is nice to have for shadow flare and it's always a dps gain and important for res'ing so during progression on new content or heavy content, you will always have to be on standby to res others IF YOU have the mana for it lol
7- Placing your pet and wasting gcd on sustain it's a dps loss in most scenarios

again summoner is quite mobile yeah sure but it's always a dps loss especially in a long fight. The class is so detailed they even give much F's about auto attack. If you really want summoner to be more mobile give them more mana. I think utilities should be the one most important thing to fix + bonus mana buff, since SMN will catch up on BLM in dps sooner or later after complete optimization in every mechanic. It always takes practice to make perfect and SMN is always the best class for any strat or scenario.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

30% of your damage that is controlled by a computer and doesn't make mistakes. That is more than melee DD's auto attacks. Having 30% of your damage constantly going is huge.

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Where as i agree with you that the pets damage contribution is huge, it is also a liability sometimes. Pets dying decreases your damage by a large amount (yes the counter argument here is keep the pet alive, but this does seperate the excellent summoners from the rest). Also the pet, when controlled by the computer (guessing you are referring to the pet on sic?), makes some very very very bad decisions. Garuda on sic, and your dps will decrease due to the A.I.'s use of contagion being less than optimal. Being able to change the position of the egi via place command during battle is also another slight skill tester of the summoner, as having to change where they are to take account of what phase the fight is in and where aoe's are going to go is sometimes needed.

And for the topic, summoners really seem to be less than optimal in this patch, especially in Final coils. Whereas they bring some utility to the group, and the ability to resurrect to push progression is needed, the tail off in sub-optimal mana management really pushed down the summoners viability. Too much emphasis on spellspeed in the gear is hurting the summoner. Also the uility they do bring to the group is overshadowed by the scholars presence in the group (disclaimer, i raid as scholar, but summoner is by far my favourite dps class, and is the class i always go back to as my second class), and in the raids, it is usually my responsibility to use virus at the right time, raise first etc. some other groups may do this differently, but as far as my raid group is concerned, the summoner is there to raise as a last resort, as their dps is needed more where pushing those phase progressions. Clutch raises are heavenly on summoners, but its not what they should be doing all the time :).

All in all, their dps does need a little buffing, as well as getting better mana management for end game raids as they currently stand.

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Originally Posted by Minorinz

@ ignorant people who think summoner is blessed with complete mobility-

1- being mobile most of the time also means mana getting drained
2- spamming energy drain to get some mana back or using it while moving to cover up dps is just lol
3- more energy drain= less festers
4- if your pet dies for whatever reason it's really a heavy punishment, whether it's a dps loss or mana loss
5- dots are supposed to be refreshed when they r about to fall 4-5 seconds before to ensure a server tick otherwise it's a dps loss because A) mana getting sucked if you refresh earlier B) less time/gcd to spam ruin in C) making sure every other CD aligns with your dot'ing time if you are going to use raging strikes or contagion etc. BUT for the sake for being mobile most summoners refresh them earlier before certain mechanics to be able to move WHICH is a dps loss.
6- swiftcast is nice to have for shadow flare and it's always a dps gain and important for res'ing so during progression on new content or heavy content, you will always have to be on standby to res others IF YOU have the mana for it lol
7- Placing your pet and wasting gcd on sustain it's a dps loss in most scenarios.

again summoner is quite mobile yeah sure but it's always a dps loss especially in a long fight. The class is so detailed they even give much F's about auto attack. If you really want summoner to be more mobile give them more mana. I think utilities should be the one most important thing to fix + bonus mana buff, since SMN will catch up on BLM in dps sooner or later after complete optimization in every mechanic. It always takes practice to make perfect and SMN is always the best class for any strat or scenario.

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oh man, the name calling comes out.

K.

1. the mp cost is there because of the mobility, if you've read the whole thread you'd see I'm for you getting mp cost reduction buffs but not potency buffs
2. Fester can be used on the move just as much as energy drain. Moving or not you'd be using energy drain or fester depending on your mp bar
3. duh.
4. if your pet dies then you messed up... badly. This does not belong in a balancing discussion, being a good summoner means never letting your pet die. a dead pet should never happen.
5. this is entirely on your own management. Plan accordingly and you can get your two spells that actually matter if they get interrupted by just fine. bio 1 should never be off sync
6. i agree it is nice for shadowflare, shadowflare cost a ton of mp too so this is a decision in itself. The res thing works one way or another either argue it matters or argue it doesnt matter, summoners are going back and forth on this.
7. shift +4 = call pet to you shift + 5 place pet. you can move it around easily with these two commands while your casting. If you ever need to sustain in a fight you messed up. placing your pet doesn't mean its permanently rooted to the ground. Keep your pet on obey and not sic. (why are you using sic?)

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Originally Posted by Xisin

The two jobs should not do equal dps, BLM needs to be higher dps in order to stay viable when compared to summoner.

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*huge sigh*

I Can't believe this thread turned into an huge BLM vs SMN war, this is kind of pathetic to see arguments coming from a main blm so the smns doesn't get any sort of buffs... You should be more focusing on asking a total rework update on BLM, mainly because of this :

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/840145blm.gif

Is kind of sad when you are an huge Final Fantasy fan and know how far more complete and complex the FFXIV-BLM should be. BLM need a real revamp.

Meanwhile, I'm personally well-informed that a good and lucky BLM will out-dps a good SMN and I couldn't care less to say the least xD.
Would I welcome the return of my Thunder? Of course! :) but what I really need as SMN is slightly more freedom on my mps management for long fights (even more when the said fight include a crazy amount of adds x.X).
Oh... And less Spell Speed on gears please >.>;;; Seriously SE, If you plan to continue the huge vertical gears progression, at least you should test them with every jobs ^.^;

Well that would explain my friend Summoner doing lower dps than me as Warrior (without Defiance) in a low level dungeon run (granted I'm ilv110 she's got ilv30 leveling gear)

I hope that they're gonna fix Summoner before she's lv50 :|

Still no word from tbe devs about this? :(

Any reply is appreciated, please fix smn devs!

I dont get why almost every SMN tread is war between SMN and BLM. They are both good in different situations. My opinion is that itemization is biggest SMN issue, nothing else. I think it is good if you need think carefully your mana use in the endgame content and make the job more challenging.

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(A) Increase the potency and mana return on Energy Drain.

(B) Increase the amount of Aetheryte stacks up from 3 to X amount.

(C) Lower the duration on the CD for Aetherflow.

I really hope they buff/change/adjust mana cost of spells for SMN soon. I'm not the best player or anything, but I know there is a huge dps difference between SMN and BLM cause I'm in a static with a BLM and I have the numbers to prove it.

I don't really care about how mobile they are and how much utility a SMN has. Honestly, I don't even use it a lot in any of the fights cause I'm too busy trying to keep up with dps, dodging mechanics, and pushing phases. The only time I actually get to use eye for an eye mostly is if I used bio or ruin II, and virus is usually handled by my static SCH (unless it's needed for adds). A SMN shouldn't even prioritize using resurrection over a healer; when you do that, about a quarter of your MP is gone, and MP is precious, especially in final coil.

And it's just saying something when like around 8-10 people I know have switched their mains from a SMN to a BLM (or something else). After looking at all the parses, it just tells me that there's really no point on playing SMN if you want better dps. You're better off having a combination of MNK, NIN/DRG, BLM, and BRD. Just about all the top-tier statics I've seen have that kind of party composition.

Yes, I'm complaining, but that's my opinion on why I think SMN's need some sort of adjustment for long fights. I know my above points aren't that great, though I feel the same way as OP and I just don't feel like looking into or repeating what the supporters have said. Some of you (who don't play it faithfully) probably think or know what's best for SMN, and you may be right on some things but wrong on other things. I have played this class ever since patch 2.15-2.18(?) and I don't think some of you understand that this class is not the greatest in high content-standard cause of MP issue and lower dps compared to everything but brd. You can't just say that, "since SMN is more mobile than BLM, the MP cost is fine as is." The infinite MP resource that BLM's have is kinda dumb, however as a SMN, in a long fight I don't have the luxury to use ruin II every time I have to move or before I use fester. I only do that when I have raging strikes/int pot or when I know that my BRD is about to use ballad for my healer and even then I don't really ask the BRD to use ballad for me. He needs that for TP song for himself and physical attackers in my party.

Not to mention ruin is not the best filler attack, seeing how most of your damage comes from pet, dots, and fester. Based on the parse data, ruin and ruin II combined are around 10%-12% of my damage or about 20k damage total in a 10 minute fight. I'm all for a small potency buff for ruin and ruin II I think. Not to big, maybe 10-15 more. DoT potency can stay as is, but definitely take less mana to cast. I hate having to re-DoT an add that's not in bane range or when I don't have aetherflow stacks up. You spend 398 MP putting your DoTs up on a new target. These little changes can go a long way until SMN get a rework in the expansion.

I still enjoy playing it, but I feel like it's not really rewarding to play as a SMN and like I said before, it seems like they are outclassed. Another thing to add about that that I forgot to mention is it's not fair how BLM has better single and multi-target dps than a SMN. It just doesn't make sense to me. When I speed run a dungeon as a dps, I go as BLM, regardless of having a i130 SMN book (bleh). It's all about that infinite resource and reliable AoE damage.

But whatever.. I'm dealing with it, since SMN is my best class. :/

tl;dr - SMN's are not in the best spot and could use the suggested adjustment that they deserve.

Edit: I just had another idea and I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it. I was looking at SMN skills and trait, and when I read the "Maim and Mend" trait, I realized they should add or do something different for it. Right now, it gives you base action damage and HP restoration increase. It should also have increase MP regen under a certain percentage, like 15%. Or maybe make that a new trait.

Or have Aetherflow skill restore higher percentage of MP or changed it and make it based on missing MP. I'm just throwing new things out here. What do you guys think?

Could probably bring SMN base MP up to 3600 to match BLM.
That would allow for 2160/min MP recovery.
360 MP/min over what we have currently.

Edited for Reasoning behind post:

SMN average MP consumption/min
- 2600 MP (includes Miasma II, Ruin II where applicable)
- 3000 (Short Burst Damage + AA)

Example 3600 MP Base
2600-2160 MP - less 440MP/min - 8mins 12 seconds full damage no breaks (no R2 spam for full AA damage)
3000 - 2160 MP - less 840MP/min - 4.5min full burst damage no breaks (R2 Spam for full AA Damage)

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Example 3000 MP Base
- 2600 MP - 1800 - less 800 - 3 mins 45s
- 3000 MP - 1800 - less 1200 - 2 mins 30s

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Put that into context of say Turn 12 where you are reaching the add phase in around 4 mins pushing 4 bennus at which point WHM needs Ballad anyways.


600 MP would require ~80 Melded Piety - outside of i110 Crafted gear it's not exactly viable due to the damage loss of primary stats for higher iLvl gear.

-----------------------------------------

Possible issues

SCH too much MP if Piety is tied to ACN class
If the Soul Stone gives SMN X# of Piety, how will that scale with MP cost of spells for level increase

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Originally Posted by Xisin

oh man, the name calling comes out.

K.

1. the mp cost is there because of the mobility, if you've read the whole thread you'd see I'm for you getting mp cost reduction buffs but not potency buffs
2. Fester can be used on the move just as much as energy drain. Moving or not you'd be using energy drain or fester depending on your mp bar
3. duh.
4. if your pet dies then you messed up... badly. This does not belong in a balancing discussion, being a good summoner means never letting your pet die. a dead pet should never happen.
5. this is entirely on your own management. Plan accordingly and you can get your two spells that actually matter if they get interrupted by just fine. bio 1 should never be off sync
6. i agree it is nice for shadowflare, shadowflare cost a ton of mp too so this is a decision in itself. The res thing works one way or another either argue it matters or argue it doesnt matter, summoners are going back and forth on this.
7. shift +4 = call pet to you shift + 5 place pet. you can move it around easily with these two commands while your casting. If you ever need to sustain in a fight you messed up. placing your pet doesn't mean its permanently rooted to the ground. Keep your pet on obey and not sic. (why are you using sic?)

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Alright lemme help you there.

You said it, MP cost is there because of mobility, and the current demand is including MP cost reduction or MP better generation, without it there is no such thing right as complete mobility or the best 2nd class to jump around and move, simply incorrect. If you read my post you'd see me saying that we don't need potency buffs just mana bonuses and utility buffs, and tbh if they won't even adjust mana might as well buff potency to make summoner worth while with the mana issues we have.

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Originally Posted by Minorinz

SMN is not that far behind and I don't think it needs potency buffs, simply better mana refreshing rate and better usage of utility.

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Second of all, fester and energy drain are off GCD doesn't even relate to mobility, I don't even.........they don't matter much if you don't have your dots up because of constant moving.
Third, try watching a summoner's pet on shiva!!!!11@! it will get vulnerability stacks no matter where you put it and eventually die unless you regularly use sustain or keep moving it on the group EVEN then it might survive. Also on T11 last phase where Kaliya becomes only DPS-able in melee range and you will have to place pet near the boss or in it to not have it cleaved or killed. O I forgot to mention moving the goddamn pet is a dps loss as well, especially garuda.
Fourth, Having dots up is ofc my own management but that's not what your argument was about right? MOBILITY MOBILITY!!! SMN MOBILITY!! oh ok? well ofc if you want such thing you have to sacrifice dps here and there with dots being clipped too early or too late, BLM or SMN mobility is affecting both whether on a smaller or larger scale.
Having sustain up doesn't mean I messed up if so then please go teach SE how to make better GCDs for pets since using sustain means I messed up lol
That logic though.


And yes priority to res is always up to healers however if their swiftcast is down and if they were the ones dead. Can I take the honors of res'ing them while throwing my mana away cause also lets be clear about this, having a dps/healer back on their feet is worth the mana i'm losing but that's the point, I shouldn't be given such horrible choice if there wasn't mana issues.

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Originally Posted by Atomnium

*huge sigh*

I Can't believe this thread turned into an huge BLM vs SMN war, this is kind of pathetic to see arguments coming from a main blm so the smns doesn't get any sort of buffs... You should be more focusing on asking a total rework update on BLM, mainly because of this :

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/840145blm.gif

Is kind of sad when you are an huge Final Fantasy fan and know how far more complete and complex the FFXIV-BLM should be. BLM need a real revamp.

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A total rework of Black Mage would make the Summoner obsolete. SE would have to take the poisoning line of spells from the Summoner and give them back to the Black Mage. Then they would have to give the Summoner another skill line to have a complete Black Mage.

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Originally Posted by Orrias

.

(A) Increase the potency and mana return on Energy Drain.

(B) Increase the amount of Aetheryte stacks up from 3 to X amount.

(C) Lower the duration on the CD for Aetherflow.

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[A] is quite viable and scaling it with damage will benefit SMN without affecting SCH much.

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Originally Posted by Thistledown

[A] is quite viable and scaling it with damage will benefit SMN without affecting SCH much.

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SCH's Energy Drain is actually stronger due to Cleric Stance.

While it'd be ideal to just buff SMN's MP issues, in all honesty a SCH's MP pools while DPSing are limitless anyway so a buff wouldn't change much of anything in reality, as dumb as it is.

It bothers me when people say that the job is fine and that part of the challenge of playing the job is MP management. MP management = dumbing down your rotation. This means doing things like cutting out ruin II between GCDs, possibly not keeping up shadowflare up all the time, not using miasma II with contagion. Cutting out any of these things is going to further decrease our DPS, when it's already lower then other DPS jobs. If a melee is starved for TP what do they do? The BRD plays paeon because there are other party members who could also probably use TP. Playing ballad specifically for the summoner is a DPS loss. Something needs to be changed. We shouldn't be the only DPS class who struggles with resource management and have no reliable way to get it back without severely decreasing our DPS. The other caster cast (BLM), doesn't have this problem because of the way their mechanics work.

I think bard's still need to be looked at before smn since it's been buffed what two times now?

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Originally Posted by Crazypluto

I think bard's still need to be looked at before smn since it's been buffed what two times now?

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Nope, they nerfed it once at 2.1 (thunder removal, -4~7% of total DPS nerfed) and reduced the mp cost of bio II at 2.3.
No buffs involved.

Also, could this thread not become a BRD vs BLM vs SMN? Thanks in advance.

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Originally Posted by Ryans

Can I get an actual number to compare? People can say it does 30 dps less than any other DD, but what number are you comparing that 30 less to? Not saying you are lying, I just want tested numbers.

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If you're talking about long fights, T13 has a thread, though not much smn in there...
http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...cal_dps_in_t13

I wouldn't post parses here in this forum......

.........................And now I look at my numbers, I don't think SE will change it cuz they'll just say "suck it up, its still the best class if you play it right"
But I have to work SO HARD compared to other dps to maintain the smn top dps
My mana pool is about 100~300 by end of phases.....................I can't even cast ruin at times before transition zzzz
I just want that to be fixed to be honest....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thistledown

[A] is quite viable and scaling it with damage will benefit SMN without affecting SCH much.

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I was thinking more a long the lines of these tweaks being made to an existing, or an entirely new SMN trait, so as to remove any undesirable outcomes with SCH. Of course, the Dev Team could just introduce a new version of Energy Drain - similiar to how Stoneskin II was - for SMN exclusively.



When push-comes-to-shove, FF14, like any other MMO is going to have balancing issues because of gear itemization, class mechanics, or fight mechanics. The reality is that this tier, the itemization for SMN's sucks, whilst gearing up...

Fine, w/e. Maybe the next tier will be more forgiving, however, the biggest issue for SMN's is MP in long drawn out fights. The Dev Team has paid little-to-no credence to this issue, so lets just try to get them to tweak something already in game that requires the least amount of effort -- hence the tweaking of Energy Drain.

No SMN playing competively, trying to compete with MNK/ NIN dps in FCoB is going to want to use Energy Drain over Fester, because it's a noticable dps loss. Tweak Energy Drain for SMN's only, in regards to it's potency and mana returns, and the problem may lighten somewhat more.

I'd like to know where the Metamorphosis ability went...
...
...
...
...

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

SCH's Energy Drain is actually stronger due to Cleric Stance.

While it'd be ideal to just buff SMN's MP issues, in all honesty a SCH's MP pools while DPSing are limitless anyway so a buff wouldn't change much of anything in reality, as dumb as it is.

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That's why I mentioned 3 possibilities, as each one helps with certain problems:-


(A) Increase the potency and mana return on Energy Drain. - Could help, to an extent, to alleviate mp issues

(B) Increase the amount of Aetheryte stacks up from 3 to X amount. - after 5 minutes, you'll be at a point where you're waiting on the full CD duration for Aetherflow to be available, as you'll have blown them all on Festers as soon as they became available. As you are most likely aware, Fester is needed to 'spike' a SMN's dps to maintain numbers above 450. When Fester isn't on-hand to give a much needed 'spike', your dps drops.

(C) Lower the duration on the CD for Aetherflow. - Again, it's the same principle as for (B) -- more potential Festers over the course of any given fight leads to more 'spikes,' which in-turn yields higher dps.



These changes are MINIMALISTIC and require little effort from the Dev Team, and are they are most certainly not outside of the realms of their capabilities (e.g. BLM single target buff to Fire, Fire III (?)).



I don't know if the Dev Team do internal testing, as there is no PTR (public test realm), but as stated when the BLM "buffs" came into effect, they stated that they'd monitor the situation, so if the tweaks (stated above) were overkill/ underwhelming, then they could alter the variables (i.e. potency/ mana return/ Cool down durations/ Aetherflow stacks) to a point that they deemed acceptable, and was agreeable with the player-base. However, as I'm sure the Dev Team are well aware, tweaking variables on abilites can have adverse ramifications on later content, which is probably why they are reluctant to deal with things, especially as SMN as a rather technical Job. And if you disagree with me on the adverse possibilities of tweaking abilities in MMO's, then just look at the frequency at which Blizzard has to 'hotfix' theirs, for WoW -- it's a slippery slope, but it's the one which could gain the most traction (by the player-base and Dev Team alike) for it's feasibility and effort required.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orrias

[U]These changes are MINIMALISTICHowever, as I'm sure the Dev Team are well aware, tweaking variables on abilites can have adverse ramifications on later content, which is probably why they are reluctant to deal with things, especially as SMN as a rather technical Job. And if you disagree with me on the adverse possibilities of tweaking abilities in MMO's, then just look at the frequency at which Blizzard has to 'hotfix' theirs, for WoW -- it's a slippery slope, but it's the one which could gain the most traction (by the player-base and Dev Team alike) for it's feasibility and effort required.

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This doesn't really explain gear itemization this patch. There's no practical reason for the amount of spellspeed gear in 2.4. I understand that there are only so many combinations for gear but having spellspeed on our top tier weapon 2 patches in a row when every other DPS class has some variation of their two best stats just isn't right.

Many of the proposals in this thread are buffs to Acn, which would implicitly buff Sch. Scholars don't need a buff ATM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sequora

This doesn't really explain gear itemization this patch. There's no practical reason for the amount of spellspeed gear in 2.4. I understand that there are only so many combinations for gear but having spellspeed on our top tier weapon 2 patches in a row when every other DPS class has some variation of their two best stats just isn't right.

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No, you're right. The higher the ilvl you achieve as SMN, the lower your Crit and Det values become. The depletion of Determination as your gear's ilv increases was/ is a worry of mine, as it most liekly is for other SMN's too.

In terms of the theoretical INT value for SMN weapons, in general, they're comparitvely lower than BLM's. Why? I don't know. Factoring in such things such as too high a Fester crit isn't the reason, nor would the secondary stats' contribution to overal DoT dps , as both would have minimal overall effects of SMN dps in FCoB given the mana woes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Atomnium

*huge sigh*

I Can't believe this thread turned into an huge BLM vs SMN war, this is kind of pathetic to see arguments coming from a main blm so the smns doesn't get any sort of buffs... You should be more focusing on asking a total rework update on BLM, mainly because of this :

http://img4.hostingpics.net/pics/840145blm.gif

Is kind of sad when you are an huge Final Fantasy fan and know how far more complete and complex the FFXIV-BLM should be. BLM need a real revamp.

Meanwhile, I'm personally well-informed that a good and lucky BLM will out-dps a good SMN and I couldn't care less to say the least xD.
Would I welcome the return of my Thunder? Of course! :) but what I really need as SMN is slightly more freedom on my mps management for long fights (even more when the said fight include a crazy amount of adds x.X).
Oh... And less Spell Speed on gears please >.>;;; Seriously SE, If you plan to continue the huge vertical gears progression, at least you should test them with every jobs ^.^;

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I ignored your picture because its subjective, blm depth is fine. Smn really isnt that much more complex, its a toned down version of lock or an eq2 assassin, not hard and most of the headache of the job comes from pet management. my ui is a bit more complex than yours though and you are missing key abilities such as thunder 1

Itemization between the two should be separate due to how they work though, I agree.

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Originally Posted by Crazypluto

I think bard's still need to be looked at before smn since it's been buffed what two times now?

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A little off topic but the use of bard songs does affect balance between mages and physical dps, as it stands paeon is a very valuable song, much more for dps than ballad or foe. Bard is arguably the most op dps in the game atm in terms of slots granted in a pt. They are almost required.

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Originally Posted by Atomnium

Also, could this thread not become a BRD vs BLM vs SMN? Thanks in advance.

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Changing one will have an effect on the other (blm and smn) mainly because the two compete for 1 slot in the meta. (physical dps 2 slots, healers 2 slots, tanks 2 slots, ranged 2 slots – bard is one of them.) Something needs to change so one of the casters aren’t left out of the meta indefinitely.

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Originally Posted by Brianmj

Many of the proposals in this thread are buffs to Acn, which would implicitly buff Sch. Scholars don't need a buff ATM.

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Originally Posted by Orrias

I was thinking more a long the lines of these tweaks being made to an existing, or an entirely new SMN trait, so as to remove any undesirable outcomes with SCH. Of course, the Dev Team could just introduce a new version of Energy Drain - similiar to how Stoneskin II was - for SMN exclusively.

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It's true that SMN's and SCH's both share the same ingame trait abilities (from Arcanist). I guess it depends on how the two Jobs are intertwined code-wise. By the looks of it, it doesn'tt seem possible to add, remove or modify an Arcanist trait w/o it effecting both SCH and SMN.

It doesn't seem like any community rep cares to, or has the specifics of this problem. Heck it was was glossed over in the last LIVE letter...

So really, I'm not expecting any response as to how to fix the mana problem that SMN's have in FCoB, the dps inequality between the current Jobs in FCoB, or how the Arcanist class and SCH/ SMN Job are locked together. From their side of the fence, all that is visible is the amount of inane things they respond to, such as how much hair a player model has on it's chin/ whether or not the amount of days played can be displayed, instead of trying to shed some light on a branching topic which is bothersome to a fair amount of players.

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Originally Posted by Orrias

It doesn't seem like any community rep cares to, or has the specifics of this problem. Heck it was was glossed over in the last LIVE letter...

.... From their side of the fence, all that is visible is the amount of inane things they respond to, such as how much hair a player model has on it's chin/ whether or not the amount of days played can be displayed, instead of trying to shed some light on a branching topic which is bothersome to a fair amount of players.

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I completely agree, I think some acknowledgement of the issue would be nice. They have avoided SMN's like a plague really ever since they nerfed them. SMN's have gotten a few moderate tweaks to how pets function and a 10 MP save or so on Bio II but nothing much more... SE should show some concern.

I'm confused as to why people are complaining about MP management in long fights. Melee have required paeon in a lot of content in order to maintain their maximum dps. Just because SMN is the only caster (out of two casters, so really that means nothing) that has a limited pool doesn't mean they need to be changed. If melee need a bard, so should casters.

MNK rofl at blm vs smn argument lol

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Originally Posted by Xisin

blm depth is fine. Smn really isnt that much more complex

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BLM depth... Is fine? SMN isn't much complex? Subjective opinion though but I will try to remember that the next time I have to aoe a pack of mobs as SMN :p.
It must be total fortuity if back in the past, when grinding wanderer palace, brayflox, turn 4 and today qarn, people were only inviting blm and brd for speed runs.
It is also a coincidence if RMT-bots only roll BLMs, they obviously like the complexity and the depth of BLM job, of course!

You sir seems to enjoy BLM a lot and to be fair, I'm honestly pleased for you :) but let's not continue this "subjective" discuss xD
On a side note, your other arguments were interesting and like you said :

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Originally Posted by Xisin

Something needs to change so one of the casters aren’t left out of the meta indefinitely.

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those are wise words that the DEV team should pay more attentions (I wish, FFXIV had a PTS to avoid balance issues).

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Originally Posted by Hippo

MNK rofl at blm vs smn argument lol

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Why? This is way worse than MNK or NIN vs DRG; at least there are two melee spots groups have by and large. No, SMN vs BLM is quite an important matter since there's one spot and BLM is more effective in that role, even considering the advantages SMN can have over BLM. Role inter-balance is just as, if not more important than general balance between DPS.

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Originally Posted by Atomnium

BLM depth... Is fine? SMN isn't much complex? Subjective opinion though but I will try to remember that the next time I have to aoe a pack of mobs as SMN :p.
It must be total fortuity if back in the past, when grinding wanderer palace, brayflox, turn 4 and today qarn, people were only inviting blm and brd for speed runs.
It is also a coincidence if RMT-bots only roll BLMs, they obviously like the complexity and the depth of BLM job, of course!

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It depends on the fight really. Mitigating movement can be more thought provoking than planning your Aetherflow and just working SMN DoTs + CDs in some fights, while in other fights BLM just does a relatively simple DPS rotation, even if most BLMs do a little something different from each other. I'd say the complexity of SMN in FCoB is more focused on not running out of OoM while simultaneously not embarrassing yourself to your other DPS, but that's just me.

Yesterday was bout drg... before bout mnk... before bou BLM... before bout Brd having too much dps.... now SMN... ppl its never happy.... SMN its the only class who can res in batlle... i have even OT with Titan.... Have huge/constant AOE dps.... SMNs are not for Lazy ppl... BLM its boring....

MNks are the best dps.. at the traning dummy...

SE dont touch my SMN.... waiting for more pets

If u want to buff something buff Ifrit ;)

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Originally Posted by Valoiz

Yesterday was bout drg... before bout mnk... before bou BLM... before bout Brd having too much dps.... now SMN... ppl its never happy.... SMN its the only class who can res in batlle... i have even OT with Titan.... Have huge/constant AOE dps.... SMNs are not for Lazy ppl... BLM its boring....

MNks are the best dps.. at the traning dummy...

SE dont touch my SMN.... waiting for more pets

If u want to buff something buff Ifrit ;)

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Cool story................................................................................................................................................. You should throw some more dots at it.

People discuss these very relevant issues because they're relevant, not because they're stupid, lazy, or impossible to satisfy. You appear to have a lack of understanding of the reality on the ground if you think MNKs are only good on training dummies, or that SMN is perfectly fine. Whatever you're OTing with Titan, it's not relevant content. Just for fun, let's go through:

1) People complaining about DRG: Yeah, because it was bad. MNK and NIN had way more survivability AND way more dps. No one wanted DRGs.
2) People complaining about MNKs: Yeah, because it was bad. MNKs and melee in general had low dps because they constantly had to run away, lose stacks, not keep combos up, etc.
3) People complaining about BLMs: Yeah, because it was bad. No one wanted BLMs because their single target dps was garbage. It's still pretty bad, to be honest with you.
4) People complaining about BRDs: Yeah, because it was bad. BRD can STILL top dps charts on some fights that have excessive movement, because they can attack always and forevers. Even though their single target potential is the lowest, they still put up impressive numbers, and that's before buffing the damage of the rest of the raid.
5) People complaining about SMNs: Yeah, because it IS bad. SMN is now the lowest single target dps in actual fights, and will never be anything else except in fights custom tailored to them (like Levi EX). BLMs are almost as bad. Casters need a look. They don't need to be competitive in dps with physical dps, but they shouldn't be as far back as they are. Especially when for example BLM is a "pure dps job" according to Yoshida. Uh, no. MNK is a pure dps job.

6) You can battle raise? Sure, at the cost of a huge chunk of mp, greatly lowering your dps in most fights. If people are dying so much you need to Raise, things are already going very wrong.
7) You can OT with Titan? On what? Relic quest Chimera? Relic quest Hydra? Titan won't tank anything worth talking about. He'll just die.
8) You have huge/constant AoE dps? Sure, if you're a BLM. You can Bane stuff for fairly large AoE, but a BLM will destroy you, and other jobs can compete with you on AoE with large packs, probably destroy you. SMN only shines when there are multiple, but few, targets - ones that will survive constant DoTs and Festers, essentially letting you single target dps more than one thing at a time.
9) SMNs are not for lazy people? No, they're not, but they also aren't compensated for the hoops you have to jump through to keep your dps at the ceiling.
10) BLM is boring? What does that even have to do with everything?

11) MNK is only best dps on training dummy? No, they are the best dps on almost everything. If MNK isn't top, then BRD is, because movement heavy fight.