Bard needs some love too.

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

Zzzz i wake up and now this is full of nonsense. Like if i care if people pull high dps on dummy, you don't balance the game around dummy or a lazy Bard that doesn't have bfb and doesn't keep straight shot up but thinks hes doing fine because the people in his group are even worst than that.

People that still haven't beat the second coil telling me that we are there only to support when in the new content everyone needs high dps or you will wipe to enrage.
People telling me that i can repelling shot in t11 thinking i speak about nerve gas and they clearly ignored my post and don't know about the mechanic of having to be close to the boss to remove the invulnerability buff.
People telling me that less Melee would be easier for people in t11 because they asume the melee will derp and wipe doing pos attack, and it's actually better to have melee because Mages are not that good for the add phase.

Our gear scales like really bad, our weapon damage is a joke. Make some research Bard is not fine, people think it is because of our Songs but i don't know what's so hard to understand that we are a dps, not a healer or a support job.


To put it simple if Nin had the option to give mana we wouldn't have any place in raids. And in the future this might happen because Nin brings good utility and good damage, and ballad isn't not that important if people are not diying a lot.

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http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001..._1_xlarge.jpeg

I remember when Ninja could use Foe's Requiem for 25s. Oh, also that raidwide Goad is pretty awesome too.

The only point I will concede to you is Bard gear scales terribly. But on that same token, so does healer gear.

Why would Nin need the goad for all the group when the only jobs burning TP so quick are Bard and Monk and well Pala if he uses fracture.... If there's no Bard then goad is enough to keep the Monk going.

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

Why would Nin need the goad for all the group when the only jobs burning TP so quick are Bard and Monk and well Pala if he uses fracture.... If there's no Bard then goad is enough to keep the Monk going.

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If there is no Bard, then the next best composition is NIN/MNK/MNK/caster. You can only use Goad on 1 Monk, who do you choose?

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Originally Posted by Exstal

If there is no Bard, then the next best composition is NIN/MNK/MNK/caster. You can only use Goad on 1 Monk, who do you choose?

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Simple. One Monk saves invigorate, the other one doesn't, the Nin uses goat on the Monk that is saving it and will have it back by the time the one that used it needs it.

So basically, Ninja needs to have Ballad, Foe's and keep their Goad then Bard would have no spot in the party? Why do I see that not happening?

There's also no reason for SE to waste Ninja job skills on support skills when there is a class that is supposed to be that way.

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Originally Posted by ClaireAbigail

As someone who mains as a bard, we are in a good spot at the moment. Having those dmg penalty while singing songs allows bard to be smart when it comes to using it. Also don't underestimate bard dps too much :p I've seen bards do 400-350 dps in t8 and I know there are some capable of doing more.

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uhm, give me goad/tp song and disembowl and I also reach 480 dps in t8 as bard

Bards need some love, but some buff ? Hmm I would say no to that.
As most of us I think I didn't welcome the nerf on Rain Of Death. Who needs evasion debuff anyway ?! But the ting is, one class can't rule them all. We can't have all the funny buffs/debuff AND the DPS.

We have a decent DPS, a huge burst, and utility. I won't speak about mobility because to me, this thing is more of a curse than a blessing. Yeah I can move, sure... but being out of range of Melusine while kiting, eating two landmines so I have to run accross the room without Avatar being auto-attacked, placing marks for T9's divebombs (well it doesn't require movement...), that hurts my numbers.
Besides I'm pretty sure SMN can do damage while moving too, that's why they have DoTs and a freaking pet. Unless Ruin is their only offensive spell ?

Anyway, our damage is fine. Once the whole group know the fight, it's even better. Without unnecessary Army/Ballad we're really fine. We won't be Top DPS but nothing to be ashamed of.
I myself am second to our BLM in our static. Higher than DRG & SMN on most of the fights.

Bards who only look at their DPS numbers to judge if their job needs a buff or not might as well go play another class, 'cause clearly they are not suited to be Bards.

To think that BRD used to be overpowered and they nerfed it...
Having the healer LB as a DPS is nice, and I saved my group a few times with it, I do often wish we got a DPS LB, like a huge, effing arrow being shot at all the targets within a fan-shaped area in front of us.

http://i.imgur.com/Pn5b0C3.gif

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Bards who only look at their DPS numbers to judge if their job needs a buff or not might as well go play another class, 'cause clearly they are not suited to be Bards.

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The problem with bards that they have just too low DPS for their "utility".
It was more or less fine without NIN, but with NIN introduced - they just wipe all those little advantages BRD brings into the party and still have much higher dps.
BRD is better on AOE heavy fight... otherwise NIN have better than BRD damage buff, can regen TP too and ballad is rarely useful, so no real "utility" advantage for bard.

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Originally Posted by Felessan

The problem with bards that they have just too low DPS for their "utility".
It was more or less fine without NIN, but with NIN introduced - they just wipe all those little advantages BRD brings into the party and still have much higher dps.
BRD is better on AOE heavy fight... otherwise NIN have better than BRD damage buff, can regen TP too and ballad is rarely useful, so no real "utility" advantage for bard.

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I am not sure what content you are basing your observations on, but I fail to see how NIN can compensate a lack of BRD in a progression static.

Foe's Requiem, Ballad, TP song are still extremely useful in tight fights where DPS and Healing checks are present. Goad is not even remotely as powerful as TP song, by the way.

Point is, it's not like EVERY job can be top dps. BRD, as one of the jobs with most utility, can't really ask for that.

I won't lie and say I don't notice ups and downs in my output but truthfully that's normal for any dps. Hell, I only recently decided to fulltime main Bard and it isnt anywhere near as geared as it should be. I still pull hate from tanks far better geared than me and they aren't even doing it wrong. It's more about cooldown management and situational awareness than simply running in and firing away and expecting those same numbers. I know that's not what you mean, still... There has to be a balance otherwise better than half the populace gets the shaft, pun intended. We get mobility, versatile utility, and better than average dps without being pinned down by positionals. I'd say we are pretty dang blessed actually. Some things could be tweeked certainly but I would need to spend more time paying attention to each skill's ups and downs. Just my two gil.

This thread is such a f****ing joke. Bard is OP as hell. It is the single one DPS you can not go without.

And comparing Goad to TP song is a joke too. Goad allow to make it so that you can wait a bit more before having to use TP song on long fight with no downtime by hitting the first tp starved person, so you can hopefully find a better time to sing, but the bard will have to sing like a canary, goad or not.

And yeah, Foe requiem is very important too. But the real deal breaker is Ballad, as the whole healing stuff is balanced currently around it. No matter how you look at it, you are not going to accomplish anything relevant without a good bard. You can go without a nin, a mnk, a drg, a blm or a smn. You can not go without a brd.

Also dps wise, they are, from my experience, 0 to 10% behind best dps in any fight that is not a dummy (so no t8). They pay almost nothing for their mandatory utility.

If anything, Brd would need a slight nerf, or the game should be balanced in a way that does not literally revolve around them.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Foe's Requiem, Ballad, TP song are still extremely useful in tight fights where DPS and Healing checks are present. Goad is not even remotely as powerful as TP song, by the way.

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1. Good Healers don't need Ballad
2. On single target Foe is worse damage buff than TA - 10% damage up for 30% uptime for mages only VS 10% damage up for 16.7% uptime for everyone in party
3. Goad is just good enough to prevent 1 melee from beeing TP staved, so if you have only MNK/DRG melee than you don't need a BRD.

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Originally Posted by Felessan

The problem with bards that they have just too low DPS for their "utility".
It was more or less fine without NIN, but with NIN introduced - they just wipe all those little advantages BRD brings into the party and still have much higher dps.
BRD is better on AOE heavy fight... otherwise NIN have better than BRD damage buff, can regen TP too and ballad is rarely useful, so no real "utility" advantage for bard.

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Too low for what, exactly? It's good enough for groups that go for world firsts.

Lucrezia had a bard for their T13 WF.
BG had 2 for their T9 WF.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

If there is no Bard, then the next best composition is NIN/MNK/MNK/caster. You can only use Goad on 1 Monk, who do you choose?

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Goad is only on a 3 minute cooldown, all you would need to do is alternate between the 2 mnks and they should never run out of TP if they are using invigorate off cd. The only way they would is if the ninja sucks and forgets to use it, so your point is moot here.

At the end of the day, BRD only needs to ballad if people are dying or the healers really suck.

So the only edge that BRD gets over NIN at this point would be foes for the (usually) 1 caster in the group and the ability to save a dying party. Big Woop.

Nin also gets trick attack for a raidwide 10% dmg increase which in my opinion trumps foes as well since most groups typically go with 1 caster these days

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

Too low for what, exactly? It's good enough for groups that go for world firsts.

Lucrezia had a bard for their T13 WF.
BG had 2 for their T9 WF.

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I think you're missing the point, nobody is saying you can't use a BRD because their dps is too low. They're saying the gap between the lowest dps and second lowest dps is getting bigger, mainly because gear scaling sucks for brd, but also because other jobs are being or have been buffed. BRD is still perfectly viable for all fights, especially if the BRD is good, but the gap will only get larger as time goes on.

This thread has to be a troll thread. BRD's damage is balanced around it giving Foe's Requiem to casters to make up for its lower training dummy DPS, and its extremely high uptime on both boss and adds alike. Most movement heavy mechanics you can give to your BRD with minimal/no DPS loss. You really need TP song in the new coil, every fight is 10m+ of almost no breaks. You can easily need MP song currently too; it's true in 2.3 MP song became worthless as we overgeared everything, but now we're undergeared, and sometimes healers have to go HAM.

WAR deserved a buff, it wasn't getting used. BLM deserved a buff, it wasn't getting used. DRG deserves a buff, it's not getting used. BRD ... I'd nerf it before buffing it, if I had to choose one.

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Originally Posted by Casper

Bard is OP as hell.

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Now that, is a joke...

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

I think you're missing the point, nobody is saying you can't use a BRD because their dps is too low. They're saying the gap between the lowest dps and second lowest dps is getting bigger, mainly because gear scaling sucks for brd, but also because other jobs are being or have been buffed. BRD is still perfectly viable for all fights, especially if the BRD is good, but the gap will only get larger as time goes on.

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Why would that matter though?

Everything between the highest DPS (MNK) and lowest DPS (BRD) is just fluff as far as content balance is concerned. (i.e. Bosses will be weak enough for parties with bards to kill properly, but not weak enough for monk parties to cheese.)

I would consider my main job to be BLM but honestly if im forced to move much my bard that is lower in ilv actually is usually always around the top of the dps in our groups and beats my blm alot if Im forced to move. If Bard got any buffs I feel it would be quite over powered to be honest. I don't think me and another bard should be tied for top dps spots on almost all raids(or so im told) over other jobs like drg. With that being said though bard would be my secondary job, I do not agree with it needs any improvement at this time.

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

I don't want to be rude and i have no idea of what other jobs you have in your static but if your Bard is top or around top the other dps must be bad.
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Though this could be a case for some I think what makes it so high is actually that bard has literally no handicap outside paeon and ballad. No movement hindrance no side/frontal/behind requisites and a ranged auto attack is why this job can shine so easily to some of the other jobs. Also though I don't want to sound too rude perhaps the problem your having with bard is the very thing you quoted about the other dps being bad. if your always last as a bard, I think your other dps must be amazing or your not fully utilizing your skillset yourself.

On a further note I do play all jobs but ninja right now and the only job i feel that could use a buff is Dragoon. Also to the Op as stated earlier im not trying to be rude but its very hard for you to make your defense in the discussion valid when your constantly berating and calling everyone who disagrees trolls. You would do better for your cause by bringing meaningful reasons to why you feel this is needed and ways that could fix it. As for your current posts in this subject( I took the time to look at each post page from everyone you are indeed coming off slightly trollish and im afraid it will not help your case.

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Originally Posted by Felessan

1. Good Healers don't need Ballad

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Ok. Thanks for letting us know.

Ah, FYI - good bards don't need buffs to be top DPS.

You're welcome.

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

Why would that matter though?

Everything between the highest DPS (MNK) and lowest DPS (BRD) is just fluff as far as content balance is concerned. (i.e. Bosses will be weak enough for parties with bards to kill properly, but not weak enough for monk parties to cheese.)

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Using that logic, why does it matter that DRG isn't up to par with MNK or NIN?

Why does it matter that BLM wasn't up to par with SMN/DRG before their buff?

Why does it matter that PLD flash didn't give as much enmity as overpower prior to their buff?

The only answer I can give you is balance. BRD was 100-150 dps lower than the other DPS classes pre-2.4 which is already a massive gap (approximately 25% lower dps) and that gap is not getting any smaller I assure you. I can't give you up to date data at this point since people are not geared up in the new stuff yet.

People seem to think that the request is for BRD to become the highest dps in the game but the fact is, most bards are fine with being the lowest dps job. They are not fine with being the lowest by 25% or higher which is the case at the moment.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

The only answer I can give you is balance. BRD was 100-150 dps lower than the other DPS classes pre-2.4 which is already a massive gap (approximately 25% lower dps) and that gap is not getting any smaller I assure you. I can't give you up to date data at this point since people are not geared up in the new stuff yet.

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In what alternate reality is this true?

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Originally Posted by Exstal

In what alternate reality is this true?

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The reality where other dps in the raid group are equally geared and are playing their jobs properly, what do you want me to say? I've seen enough parse data to call that the average. Feel free to post some opposing data if you have any but I'm not going to go digging for parses just to prove you wrong so suit yourself. I'm open to new data but right now I'm calling it based on my own observations so go ahead and enlighten me.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

Using that logic, why does it matter that DRG isn't up to par with MNK or NIN?

Why does it matter that BLM wasn't up to par with SMN/DRG before their buff?

Why does it matter that PLD flash didn't give as much enmity as overpower prior to their buff?

The only answer I can give you is balance. BRD was 100-150 dps lower than the other DPS classes pre-2.4 which is already a massive gap (approximately 25% lower dps) and that gap is not getting any smaller I assure you. I can't give you up to date data at this point since people are not geared up in the new stuff yet.

People seem to think that the request is for BRD to become the highest dps in the game but the fact is, most bards are fine with being the lowest dps job. They are not fine with being the lowest by 25% or higher which is the case at the moment.

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DRG has lesser damage and an absence of utility.
BRD does not lack utility, and has a place in pretty much any party as a result.

BLM's damage buff was not strictly necessary, but helped shore up BLM's damage in movement-heavy scenarios. (Which BRDs are not affected by, btw) It also came with a change to Apoctastasis, making it actually useful.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

,,,

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While I'd agree that bard is a bit behind compared to other dps classes, I can attest the difference isn't that huge. I've never seen my damage output lag that far behind in any encounter that wasn't T8, less every single party I've been in had shmucks.

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Originally Posted by Felessan

1. Good Healers don't need Ballad
2. On single target Foe is worse damage buff than TA - 10% damage up for 30% uptime for mages only VS 10% damage up for 16.7% uptime for everyone in party
3. Goad is just good enough to prevent 1 melee from beeing TP staved, so if you have only MNK/DRG melee than you don't need a BRD.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Ok. Thanks for letting us know.

Ah, FYI - good bards don't need buffs to be top DPS.

You're welcome.

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HAHAHA

Staisy Chan (Felessan) you again, that dude in the DPS subforums who says that BRD can't exceed 400DPS on dummy without IL115 weapon :rolleyes:

Go tell all the top teams around the worlds and your server that their healers doesn't need Ballad during progression, and if they need, they suck. They would probably give you the big middle finger.

I'm surprised this thread keeps getting dredged up. The top progression fc beat the dps check of t13 with a bard in their party. This only speaks that bards damage is not low enough to outweigh their utility benefits. The only two classes that have legitimate grips right now are dragoons (who are getting buffed) and summoners.

This thread's existence is ridiculous. If all bards played bard correctly (i.e. using songs when appropriate, instead of worrying strictly about their sole dps compared to that of the party's as a whole), then you'd see how important bard actually is. Unfortunately, everyone needs to be the top damage dealer themselves, and the rest of the group suffers for it. Bard does not need fixing or any kind of buff. In fact, its utility can increase party-wide damage way more than a Ninja's Trick Attack can. I'd take a Bard over any single DPS job, as long as the player is playing it right.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

In what alternate reality is this true?

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Yeah. Bard dps is about 50 lower.

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Originally Posted by Ooshima

HAHAHA

Staisy Chan (Felessan) you again, that dude in the DPS subforums who says that BRD can't exceed 400DPS on dummy without IL115 weapon :rolleyes:

Go tell all the top teams around the worlds and your server that their healers doesn't need Ballad during progression, and if they need, they suck. They would probably give you the big middle finger.

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I'm not going to go as far to say that heals needing ballad suck but my static is far from the best and my heals never needed mana in our t1o and t11 kills.

Like some people mentioned it's a matter of not having your people die all the time so they don't waste mana on raising people.

As far for the guy telling me that i was calling people trolls for no reason i actually gave reasons for each one of them and all where speaking nonsense and where proven wrong.

Like the frozen parser or the guy that clearly had no idea about t12.


Then we have more people that obviously din't read my op and just come to say that i want to be top dps when it's far from that and the stuff i sudggest woudln't change that much. It would be like 10 or + 20 dps and that's our natural dps that we lose by the use of Songs.

What's even more funny it's people coming to tell me how Bard is ment to be played when they have 0 experience in raid content. Most of them with like not even t9 down and me being Bard since release. And extrapolating my demand when they don't realise that's not even that big of a buff.

What's funnier is you being told you're wrong by the fact that people who are doing Final Coil of Bahamut all have Bards. There is no exception to this.

There was exclusion to Black Mages in Second Coil. There is exclusive to Dragoons in Final Coil. There has been no exclusion of Bards. That is why they got buffed. Whereas in Binding Coil, Bard had to be nerfed because it was too good. As you've played Bard from the start, you should know this already.

I saw you edited your opening post.
- I still disagree with removing damage penalty from Army's Paeon or Mage's Ballad. Paeon is good to help multiple TP jobs, whereas Ballad helps Summoner go ape shit with Ruinra spam.
- Songs off GCD should have already happened. That's so silly that it consumes a GCD.
- I think the standing still passive should be more like a channeling thing. Much like if Black Mage had to start a Firaga cast and then get into their attack groove. I wouldn't be opposed to that.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

What's funnier is you being told you're wrong by the fact that people who are doing Final Coil of Bahamut all have Bards. There is no exception to this.

There was exclusion to Black Mages in Second Coil. There is exclusive to Dragoons in Final Coil. There has been no exclusion of Bards. That is why they got buffed. Whereas in Binding Coil, Bard had to be nerfed because it was too good. As you've played Bard from the start, you should know this already.

I saw you edited your opening post.
- I still disagree with removing damage penalty from Army's Paeon or Mage's Ballad. Paeon is good to help multiple TP jobs, whereas Ballad helps Summoner go ape shit with Ruinra spam.
- Songs off GCD should have already happened. That's so silly that it consumes a GCD.
q

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Tell me why i'm i wrong? I actually stated that we are always in the groups because of songs. Most people keep missing my point.

Bard were never op lol....Monks were never bad and got buffed, then DRG's fell behind because of that buff. Blm was good but second coil was more in favour of Summ so they buffed it and now it's extremly strong too, now Summ is the one not being that good in new fights because they are long and ends up being mp starved.

Just because world firsts end up going the easy way that doesn't mean that everyone has to copy them and use these set ups. If people are dumb like when they din't want melee for Garuda EX it doesn't mean that melee needed a buff.

All I see is that you want utility, mobility, constant up time and DPS that matches or surpasses DPS that do not have near 100% up time on bosses... Now let me ask, what makes that justifiable?

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Originally Posted by Eardstapa

All I see is that you want utility, mobility, constant up time and DPS that matches or surpasses DPS that do not have near 100% up time on bosses... Now let me ask, what makes that justifiable?

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You not reading my post.

No, I am. It just sounds to me like that is what you desire. Removing that 10% damage reduction during songs would make Bard far too powerful. Increasing their DPS would make them far too powerful. They have very strong utility, are ranged, and do not need to be within melee range, nor deal with losing damage on mobs that are moving. Never mind the fact that the DPS is not that much lower than you make it out to be, your changes would make it top the chart consistently and make Bard stacking a major issue again.

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

Tell me why i'm i wrong? I actually stated that we are always in the groups because of songs. Most people keep missing my point.

Bard were never op lol....Monks were never bad and got buffed, then DRG's fell behind because of that buff. Blm was good but second coil was more in favour of Summ so they buffed it and now it's extremly strong too, now Summ is the one not being that good in new fights because they are long and ends up being mp starved.

Just because world firsts end up going the easy way that doesn't mean that everyone has to copy them and use these set ups. If people are dumb like when they din't want melee for Garuda EX it doesn't mean that melee needed a buff.

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Originally Posted by Rose-Wild

For ages i have seen Blm's and DRG's claim their dps was bad and that they were having a hard time to find groups or keep playing their jobs because Summ or Monk and now Ninja too were bringing more to the table. But even then Bard has been always behind.

Now lets be honest the only reason Bards have the spot is because of Ballad and Army's.

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You're wrong because in 2.0, melee was terrible. You only brought them for single target limit break then stacked up on Bards because unnerfed cross-class skills making them overpowered. "Bard was never op", tells me you didn't think Bard was strong and simply were delusional back in Bard power days.

"Monks were never bad" - except it was extremely punshing to play melee prior to 2.1 where ranged had free reign on damage and multiple disconnects meant you had to be in the top 5% of Monks to be worth a damn. Dragoon was more or less fine with some minor hiccups occuring in turns 2, and 4 in Second Coil.

Black Mage was good. Then 2.1 happened. They got buffed because they were previously nerfed to prevent the infinite flare trick, which directly demolished their DPS. That's why there were people posting about, "look I beat second coil on Black Mage, you guys just need to L2P".

I don't know what you mean "easy" way. If it was smarter to just remove Bard, then people would not have them. But since it's *not* smarter to take a Bard of the party, I don't see what the issue is. You need to either give a *good* reason why Bard, who is a DPS/support, needs more DPS..considering that's why cross-class skills were nerfed in the first place (hint: too much DPS from Bards). It's not just world firsts who play like that. Anyone who knows how useful Bard can be play like that. Only people who want to challenge themselves by introducing artificial difficulty will play with less optimal setups.

You can always count on Exstal for remembering things like the reason cross class skills were reduced... And that's not a lie. Bard was the offender that caused the reduction... Internal Release gave far too much critical to Bard, and Blood for Blood make them a tactical nuke just spamming Bloodletter with all their juicy critical. There were so overpowered, that it was very possible to see people running 4 Bards when the First Coil was new.

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Originally Posted by Eardstapa

No, I am. It just sounds to me like that is what you desire. Removing that 10% damage reduction during songs would make Bard far too powerful. Increasing their DPS would make them far too powerful. They have very strong utility, are ranged, and do not need to be within melee range, nor deal with losing damage on mobs that are moving. Never mind the fact that the DPS is not that much lower than you make it out to be, your changes would make it top the chart consistently and make Bard stacking a major issue again.

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Not arguning with your statement, just informing you of the error within:
"Refreshes MP of all nearby party members while lowering own damage dealt by 20%. MP is drained while singing. Refresh effect is lost if party members move out of hearing distance, and ends upon reuse. Cannot be used with other songs."