Goodbye cleric stance.. you will be sorely missed

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Originally Posted by Rydia13

Idk about you, but I was always too busy healing on WHM to use Cleric Stance. The only times I would ever use Cleric Stance is when I get caught alone, there's only a few enemies at our flag, and if we had 3+ healers. So no, this isn't going to fundamentally change anything. People that love to heal will not be bothered by the fact that they're no longer OP.

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Careful with that kind of language here. This thread is only for those that disagree with the change.

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Originally Posted by Zyphione

In addition to this, I believe one of the problems if the 8 white mage party that is common in the JP frontlines where they will use cleric stance and equanimity to destroy the entire of the other party in seconds.

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Makes sense. Fact is you can't have the best of all worlds, and white mages did. Massive heals? Check. Tankability? Check. Do great DPS? Check. You can't have any balance in pvp with a class like that. Why play anything else? Removal of cleric stance just defines the role of healers as just that - healers. You keep the group and yourself alive, thats your role. Not "destroy everything in your path when it feels convenient to do so.."

Yeah, Im out too. SCH isn't even remotely fun anymore. WHM at least still retains Fluid Aura, Repose and heavy to fend off rogue DPS when scrambling back to the group. SCH has squat. Oh, I can push them back 10 yalms once every 2 minutes. I can ask them politely to stand still while I Blizz II - because there's no way to remove bind and it's not like it has diminishing returns or anything. Before you could at least harass them with enough DoT damage that they might get scared after a while. Thankfully, all the DPS and tanks in PvP respond so quickly when their healer is getting pummeled that I won't need any form of actual defense! No, I'll just heal. I'll heal myself. The rest of you can die.

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Originally Posted by DenariusJay

Makes sense. Fact is you can't have the best of all worlds, and white mages did. Massive heals? Check. Tankability? Check. Do great DPS? Check. You can't have any balance in pvp with a class like that. Why play anything else? Removal of cleric stance just defines the role of healers as just that - healers. You keep the group and yourself alive, thats your role. Not "destroy everything in your path when it feels convenient to do so.."

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And you base this on all your experience healing in PvP. Holy spam was broken. The solution should have been to address Holy/Bane in PvP, not gut healing classes. While we're at it, let's take away all the pretty stuns and harrassment tools MNK has. After all they are a DPS class and should only DPS. Dispel? No. Silence? No. Second Wind? Pfffft, you're not a healer.

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Originally Posted by Copestetic

Careful with that kind of language here. This thread is only for those that disagree with the change.

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Broseph, it's not as dramatic if you say you're leaving but then you stay.

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Originally Posted by DenariusJay

Makes sense. Fact is you can't have the best of all worlds, and white mages did. Massive heals? Check. Tankability? Check. Do great DPS? Check. You can't have any balance in pvp with a class like that. Why play anything else? Removal of cleric stance just defines the role of healers as just that - healers. You keep the group and yourself alive, thats your role. Not "destroy everything in your path when it feels convenient to do so.."

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Better edit that post. That's sacrilege to healers that think they should be the best at everything, and that's not OP at all.

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Originally Posted by DenariusJay

Do great DPS? Check.

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Uncheck. I have yet to see a single person post a screenshot of a WHM pulling better damage than a traditional DD. On average, you won't see them coming anywhere near breaking the 15k mark. Pics or it just didn't happen.

So much anger..... you guys make it sound that it is a doomsday scenario when this is a common dispute among all mmo:

WoW

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...2649512?page=1

Rift

http://forums.riftgame.com/game-disc...r-powered.html

SWOTR

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=661711

Dark Souls II

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/69333...ls-ii/69009580

All aboves are actual healing done nerf. The threat of there will be no healer is getting old. It bump here and there in above threads from other mmos but one fact will never change:

There will always be a healer.

What is the next argument? The devs listen to the carebears is the first thing in my mind. Is that really a fact? All the mmos sharing same issue. The healers designed for PvE content is too strong for PvP content because player unit can not output same amount of pressure as scripted AI boss. This is a fact and all mmo did some countermeasures.

Not to mention. You are still can play healer as dps role as long as you swap with int accessories instead of taking advantage of cleric stance + vit accessories. You are not suppose to be all around, every job need a weakness. Stop being one of the doomsday cult.

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Originally Posted by Rydia13

Idk about you, but I was always too busy healing on WHM to use Cleric Stance. The only times I would ever use Cleric Stance is when I get caught alone, there's only a few enemies at our flag, and if we had 3+ healers. So no, this isn't going to fundamentally change anything. People that love to heal will not be bothered by the fact that they're no longer OP.

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Agreed, and I only used CS in exactly the first two situations you described. Maybe once in a while on the Heliodrome to help add dps to the drones.

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Originally Posted by Shake0615

Uncheck. I have yet to see a single person post a screenshot of a WHM pulling better damage than a traditional DD. On average, you won't see them coming anywhere near breaking the 15k mark. Pics or it just didn't happen.

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This is relative to your experience only? It is possible in JP servers that white mages and scholars are doing very high damage some game exceeding 100000 as blanket number for both class. This is because flag is already taken due to strong holy spam and there is no need for long fighting to build numbers on damage scoreboard.

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Originally Posted by Zyphione

This is relative to your experience only? It is possible in JP servers that white mages and scholars are doing very high damage some game exceeding 100000 as blanket number for both class. This is because flag is already taken due to strong holy spam and there is no need for long fighting to build numbers on damage scoreboard.

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It is my experience on the Primal DC which is the most populous in NA, yes. In burst situations I would want to see a combat log readout that shows Holy hitting for numbers higher than Flare, Bane, or any other caster skill. I just don't see the issue with WHM/SCH damage as being nearly as threatening as people say. The majority of my evidence is anecdotal, I'll admit. But the burden of proof should have been on the people claiming that healer dps was so overpowered, and to this point their claims are tenuous. I'm not at all convinced.

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Originally Posted by Shake0615

View

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If the post is directed to my reference of JP White Mages, it is 8 of them using holy and defeating a party? Damage is shared but averaging 100000 for each healer in the course of 1 frontline game. It is a fact that healers usually do not do very high damage per game as the Black Mage and Marauder do at some points but in my given 8 White Mage situation, average divided damage and defeating the enemy party in a minute after being engaged at the flag.

There is no need for high damage when this is enough secure conflicted points and come out as victor. Because of this, cleric stance was removed? and using holy will no longer be a strategy to win conflict points without issue, thus giving others who do not want to be 8 white mages as a chance to play instead of being frustrate.

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Originally Posted by Zyphione

If the post is directed to my reference of JP White Mages, it is 8 of them using holy and defeating a party?

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Since when has this been a widespread problem? I don't see it in NA DCs. Show me threads where this is a problem elsewhere cause right now it's nothing but hypothetical.

Removing Cleric Stance was still unnecessary though? If this has to do with an 8 man WHM party spaming Holy, why wasn't stun removed for pvp purposes and take a damage% nerf. Or. Giving pvp skill focalization a slight buff. Something other than killing off an entire half of what made healers diverse in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Shake0615

Since when has this been a widespread problem? I don't see it in NA DCs. Show me threads where this is a problem elsewhere cause right now it's nothing but hypothetical.

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I mention it directed to my problem with a question mark for this reason. I do not know if this problem is common in NA so that is why I mention JP? I do not play on NA and I am here to give some people ideas on why changes are made? I am not here to prove by linking threads to many other JP websites as you will not be able to understand or navigate much there? This was used against me in very rude ways that I link threads but no one understand before so I will not do so again.
If you are truly interested then you will search JP website :)

It is not the only reason cleric stance is remove because that would not be making sense if its just for this.
If you want much proof over my 1 suggestion then we do not need to talk further as you will press me for more proof which is same as you find out yourself that way is better for us both.

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Originally Posted by Blessedbythesun

Removing Cleric Stance was still unnecessary though? If this has to do with an 8 man WHM party spaming Holy, why wasn't stun removed for pvp purposes and take a damage% nerf. Or. Giving pvp skill focalization a slight buff. Something other than killing off an entire half of what made healers diverse in the first place.

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It has been long problem in PvP that Scholars and White Mage have advantage over many classes in areas of population majority, so we do not talk about very good player for this situation now. If all player in a frontline game are new to a class, many scholars and white mage can kill multiple people because they keep in mind on sprint and cleric stance cooldown.

Scholar has posted before and his post was brought here by Divinemight where he explains he has 5000-6000HP and shields himself for 700-900HP to total 7000HP at very most with many mitigation such as focalize and attunement with fairy roused heals and fairy healing over time and fairy healing increase buff. Swiftcasting stoneskin after first stoneskin drop and cleric stance all Damage over time effects then to use Ruin until target dies and target has no hope of beating you outside of common rotations and in many case, you can defeat 3 people by yourself with minimal effort or understanding of class outside these general rule.

If you want to talk about 'skill player', those skill player never go off on their own to find as many 1 against many situation because if you are defeated and lose flag since team has 1 less healer, then you are not skilled player at all.

There are many situation where healers have become jack-of-all-trades and master-of-many in frontline, weaknesses are few compared to true dps classes outside of the painful marauder. It was also mention even marauder high damage last a short time only then they become passive until 1 minute+ later where the danger comes back of their high damage.

I have seen one NA party 8 whms spamming holy. I am not sure if they had cleric stance up or not. Not sure if I ever resisted stun. But it was 100% interrupt. With zero cast ability you need to fan out and try to pick them off one by one. We never did get that flag. Still one the match.

As a 'career' WHM in Frontlines, this change doesn't bother me because I rarely use Cleric Stance. I do feel bad for my SCH brethren though. I felt like that was their trade-off for not having burst/spike heals and a lot of CC tools.

I blame all of these 'balance fixes' on the blatant lack of knowledge when it comes to gear and skill in Frontlines. For example, people complained that healers can out-heal their damage. Yes, idiots, because almost all of your gear has Parry (useless), Accuracy (useless), and Skill/Spell Speed (debatable in the right setup) on it. There is nothing more frightening than a properly geared DPS/Tank in Frontlines. Don't even get me started on a full Det/Crit MRD...I go down faster than a cheerleader at a frat party. Luckily for me, literally 95% of *everyone* I've come across in Frontlines (my group and opposing GCs) either don't know or don't care about gearing up to better themselves. Those dangerous MRDs or insane Monks are very few and far between. I can't examine enemies to see what they're wearing, but I can tell when one PLD is hitting me for 60-80 while another is hitting me for double that amount. Healers are winning 1vs1s not because they are overpowered, but because their opponents are pve retards. Unfortunately for everyone, the retards are the most vocal.

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Originally Posted by Zyphione

Where is Gor?~

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http://stabberella.files.wordpress.c...6/azeroth1.jpg

Group of 4 WHM + cleric stance + holy.

Yeah you guys deserved it. But a nerf instead of a removal is something I can agree on.

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Originally Posted by Zyphione

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I'm sorry if any had been rude to you for providing JP posts. I'm not sure why they would respond that way :)

All I can say for sure is that 8 WHMs locking down a node is not an issue in NA data centers, so removing Cleric Stance does nothing but make any WHM a sitting duck. Now they simply can't defend themselves when staving off solo snipers and traveling between points.

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Originally Posted by Shake0615

Now they simply can't defend themselves when staving off solo snipers and traveling between points.

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This isn't a fault with the class, but the player. The healer role by nature is a team supporting/sustaining role. If their strength is in sustaining a group, then their weakness would come into light when they do not have a group to support.

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Originally Posted by Domira

This isn't a fault with the class, but the player. The healer role by nature is a team supporting/sustaining role. If their strength is in sustaining a group, then their weakness would come into light when they do not have a group to support.

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Then, as many others have said, where are the tank nerfs? Cause I can see PLDs and MRD putting out too much damage for their "role." If their role is to peel and defend their team then to be consistent we should disallow any and all abilities that buff their damage output. Healers were already weak in the damage dealing department before removing CS. Now, as I said, they're sitting ducks. Helpless. But the real issue I have with the change is that SE decides to listen to a completely ignorant yet loud minority of the forums rather than dealing with any of true problems facing Frontlines. It was a lazy decision with poor reasoning behind it. I think Kisada summed it up best in the following post.

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Originally Posted by kisada

It's about...
1. wholesale, punishing changes incited by
2. players without requisite experience, skills or know how affecting
3. classes that are already in short supply in a game event that already has
4. rapidly fading interest and fundamental flaws with queue times.

It's not even necessarily the fact that healers lost an ability. It's the fact that healers are continually being driven into the ground based on the reckless complaints of players who haven't even played those jobs, let alone fully understand them. And it's the fact that the devs continue to listen to these kinds of players over the ones who actually DO have the understanding and experience of how these things work. Think of the message that is sent when players who have many years of pvp experience in other successful games get ignored by the devs and then are at the mercy of the demands of these reckless requests. Eventually the message is so strong that players will get fed up and leave instead of putting up with bad design and balance changes.

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I agree. Healers have been nerfed into the ground that they're sitting ducks. I mean, even with all of our healing skills, damage mitigation, ability to run tank right sides boosting our HP while still pushing out great heals, able to spam Sprint off CD, skills that prevent us from being interrupted, instant rez's, tons of CC for WHM's, debuffs for SCH's, cleanses, and having 7 other people to assist us; yep. Fucking helpless.

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Originally Posted by Shake0615

Cause I can see PLDs and MRD putting out too much damage for their "role."

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So PLD damage is on par with DRG, BLM, SMN, MNK? Is that what you are saying?

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Originally Posted by Domira

So PLD damage is on par with DRG, BLM, SMN, MNK? Is that what you are saying?

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Was a WHM's and SCH's on par with DRG, BLM, SMN, MNK? No, but that didn't stop it from getting nerfed. You want people to stick to strict, pre-defined roles then PLD and MRD should do no better damage than a healer - they should only tank,

Yeah as a result of this I am unlikely to ever heal again in PvP as it isn't worth the harassment of getting constantly targeted.

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Originally Posted by Theortand

Yeah as a result of this I am unlikely to ever heal again in PvP as it isn't worth the harassment of getting constantly targeted.

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Because Stone II or a couple of DoT's would prevent that from happening.

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Originally Posted by Shake0615

Was a WHM's and SCH's on par with DRG, BLM, SMN, MNK? No, but that didn't stop it from getting nerfed. You want people to stick to strict, pre-defined roles then PLD and MRD should do no better damage than a healer - they should only tank,

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You should do some reaserch. This is from other thread:

http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...77fd59206a.jpg

BLM with same 7-1 ratio only did 71204 and 3811 healing in direct comparison.

Please explain to me why do you need cleric stance to play as a healer on the Frontline
Please also explain to me why those players who use Scholar as DPS role should be on top of every other jobs without any form of peanlty. Let me remind you, when Marauder is going for full dps role, they actually scarificed 2k hp and 25% healing bonus. If they still want to play Scholar as dps role, they still can. They just have to be like Maruaders that drop their HP pool in exchange for the dps by switching vit accessories to int accessories.

Japanese Schoalrs and WHMs are melting everyone. Just to let you know. Japanse community has the population size to use premade and their tactics are brutal in a level you havent see on both Aether and Primals. This is a fact, but a fact a lot of healers on this fourm choose to ignore. Also, do not accuse SE listenign to the majority, that is a poor defense attempt that never works in WoW and any other MMO. Let me remind of you, unless you are going to accusing he is a lair without any evidence to back you up, Yoship said he has played more than 300 Frontlines in an open interview last month. I also shared a thread previously about him brought voice actress of Kan-E-Senna to the Frontline in 14 hours live event. He sees what he sees.

How would they tank? Provoke doesn't work in pvp.

Healers are the tanks in pvp, this applies to nearly every pvp mmorpg. Also to answer your question about if healers did more damage than actual dps classes, the answer is no. But it was up there, but you see since you seem to be polarized to a certain type of thinking in regards to the healer class you over look a lot of important facts. The most important one being that SCH had high dps via attrition. Which means that overtime in a 1v1 scenario they will beat out a actual dps class. Why? Its very simple, with a combination of having good damage and good healing they become a self sustaining class were as other classes are forced to rely on other archetypes to cover their weakness.

In addition your reasoning why a PLD and MRD shouldn't do more damage than a healer really doesn't have any weight to it. There is no provoke or way to force actual players to attack you in pvp, so their whole tanking role is thrown out the window.

Oh, didn't notice there was another thread like this!....I already explained my opinions about the awful decision of removing Cleric Stance ... Goodbye to duality, balance, and fun... Goodbye to proper healing (At least having fun) in FL....

Please check also the other post like this, and if possible comment it, make more posts, whatever that could be visible for SE.

PS: Loved an image showed two posts above showing actually the differences between using good a scholar and using it bad.... So classes that can do some good things when using very good have to be nerfed, uh...

PS2: Only interested in PvP as healer, DPS is DPS, Tank is DPS with more vit... Healer was only one that had different options and required you more multitask and analysis of the situation, in short, the harder to MAXIMIZE and because of that, the most useful and funnier. "Oh no! Having skills and people that knows how to use them is bad! Let's just do a auto-attack PvP"

Well, it's not like I had much reason to want to PvP in the first instance, but now I'm even less inclined to go as a healer. Great job SE!

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

Japanese Schoalrs and WHMs are melting everyone. Just to let you know. This is a fact, but a fact a lot of healers on this fourm choose to ignore.

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I don't read the JP forums, but it appears I stand corrected. There is at least one Scholar out there who can put big numbers on the board if that person indeed stayed on the class that entire time. However, is this really all that common in JP data centers? Cause I have yet to see anything remotely close to that on Primal. So I'm more inclined to think that Tete Rouge is just a really, really good player, and that this case is an outlier rather than what's common.

Edit: I see that you added more to your post. I never accused anyone of being a liar, I simply pointed out that up to this point no one had done what you did - which was provide any actual proof that a healer could consistently compete with an actual DD class. As I said, I stand corrected. I'm sure there are more competitive data centers than Primal but that's the only comparison I can make...and you simply don't see that kind of damage. If the Japanese are good enough to pull off that kind of damage, more power to them. It's a Japanese game, so we folks in the rest of the world will have to roll with whatever changes best suit the Japanese market....doesn't mean I like it though lol

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Originally Posted by Shake0615

I don't read the JP forums, but it appears I stand corrected. There is at least one Scholar out there who can put big numbers on the board. However, is this really all that common in JP data centers? Cause I have yet to see anything remotely close to that on Primal. So I'm more inclined to think that Tete Rouge is just a really, really good player, and that this case is an outlier rather than what's common.

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Yes. It is very common for Japanse to use Scholar as dps role in solo or use WHMs spam Holy Stun to destroy other party. There are more other evidences if you spend sometime to do some reserach on it.

Also, this only impact those who on purposely play Schoalrs and White Mage as dps role. They now have to be like Marauder players, drop their HP for the dps output. Ask your self. You do not find it retard that a Scholar can surivive a lvl1 Brave like a Warrior, but output more dps than a Warrior at the same time?

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Originally Posted by Shake0615

So I'm more inclined to think that Tete Rouge is just a really, really good player, and that this case is an outlier rather than what's common.

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The game should be balanced around the highest level of play, not average or below. Those levels of play are irrelevant when it comes to the subject of balance.

I would love to know what binding ability yous speak of for SCH. We have none and do not mention bliz II

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Originally Posted by Amused

The game should be balanced around the highest level of play, not average or below. Those levels of play are irrelevant when it comes to the subject of balance.

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I agree. Though over the course of this game, it's not hard to make an argument that SE has done the exact opposite and catered to the average or below crowd (echo buffs, tomestone overload, Sands/Oil dropping everywhere, etc.). So it wasn't much of a stretch to assume that this decision had something to do with the overwhelming cries of "it's too hard to kill a healer, make it easier" posse so present in the English forums.

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Originally Posted by Shake0615

I agree. Though over the course of this game, it's not hard to make an argument that SE has done the exact opposite and catered to the average or below crowd (echo buffs, tomestone overload, Sands/Oil dropping everywhere, etc.). So it wasn't much of a stretch to assume that this decision had something to do with the overwhelming cries of "it's too hard to kill a healer, make it easier" posse so present in the English forums.

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www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBQ7K_aMpBM

A pug Malestorm party of 4 WHMs and 4 SCHs melting Twin Adder Party at Manor.
This is just pug party.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aqv7S8M6W8

In this video, 2/3 of the alliance are WHMs and SCHs. Is this still not an issue?

This is just YouTube , there are tons more on the niconico. Are you able to register it if I share those as hard solid proof?

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

You should do some reaserch. This is from other thread:

http://cdn.guildwork.net/albums/imag...77fd59206a.jpg

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so sick of seeing this image thrown around using it as a basis for argument without no background knowledge of what actually happened to get those numbers. people are just speculating that he did that much as a SCH. if he jus stood there rolling dots on a clusterfuck at one base for 15 minutes because the enemy team kept banging their heads on it, it might be possible, but with only 33k heals, which is crap for a healer, it means he wasn't healing. hell even the BRD almost got as much healing as he did. the scorebard only records what spec you were when the game ended, not what class(es) you were prior so with 130k damage with only a shitty 7 kills, the most likely story is he swapped from dps to SCH mid-match, thus making it look like he did all that as a SCH when he actually did all that damage as a dps.

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Originally Posted by Gor

so sick of seeing this image thrown around using it as a basis for argument without no background knowledge of what actually happened to get those numbers. people are just speculating that he did that much as a SCH. if he jus stood there rolling dots on a clusterfuck at one base for 15 minutes because the enemy team kept banging their heads on it, it might be possible, but with only 33k heals, which is crap for a healer, it means he wasn't healing. hell even the BRD almost got as much healing as he did. the scorebard only records what spec you were when the game ended, not what class(es) you were prior so with 130k damage with only a shitty 7 kills, the most likely story is he swapped from dps to SCH mid-match, thus making it look like he did all that as a SCH when he actually did all that damage as a dps.

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Check the two videos. You always claim it is learn to play issue. Does it looks like that other party can even do anything?

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Originally Posted by Divinemight

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What are you still on about? Killing a healer is not difficult. As I said, in my data center you simply don't see full alliances of White Mages so the videos you posted aren't an issue for us. However, if this is a thing in Japan then I understand why SE would want to counteract it. And Gor does have a point that we don't see the whole story behind that screenshot. That person could easily have been another class before switching so it isn't conclusive proof. If that is indeed their DPS output as Scholar, then I stand with you. A healer should not be able to do that much damage. But even if they could, then they're sacrificing heals so there is a penalty to it. Either way, I don't have the patience to argue this all night lol.

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Originally Posted by Shake0615

What are you still on about?

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Why are you still complaining then? Video is always the best proof isn't it.

This is straight BS, why do this now sch will be horribly boring not to mention be completely unable to defend ourselves so now we essentially have to run from every encounter even solo's! I'm done with pvp if this is the route SE goes sch has been nerfed to heck (some of which I can agree with) but this is just not cool, how much more are we gonna cater to these complainers and ppl that don't want to take time and learn their class. This is such a disappointment