[Dev 10xx] Please re-examine the return death penalty.

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Originally Posted by polyhedral

Could you teach me how to not crash and come back dead, cause that's been happening to me often lately, and I hate paying for repairs when the game itself crashes through no action of my own....

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**** happens sometimes it just cant be helped

exactly, why be rude to each other?

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Originally Posted by polyhedral

exactly, why be rude to each other?

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i feel ya on the crashing thing, but theres not much that can be done about it unfortunately

**** happens, even if its the game crashing on you and its the game somehow erroring and not something on your end(settings too high for your system for instance can crash you alot) theres not much that can be done on the programming end to fix it besides fixing the cause of the crashes

I play solo (haven't found a LS yet) and I like the damage system and the death penalty.

I prefer that to losing SP or the previous death penalty.

There really seems to be a lot of cry babies on this forum.
(Gee, wonder which MMO they all came from)

Gear damage isn't that bad. The first night the dungeon was released and we had no idea what we were walking into their were a lot of deaths. Ogre beat us up, as i'm sure he beat up everybody the first one or two runs in. And, of course, then, instead of exiting, we would run back in for more. This was death and more death. Our gear was annihilated.
Big whup.

We fixed it outside the dungeon and went back in.

What's the big deal? Crafters are everywhere. If your linkshell doesn't have any simply walk to the favorite hang out of any endgame linkshell and your stuff will be repaired (by those evil "hardcores") probably pretty fast.
In fact, if you're too poor to afford.... 5K .... they'll probably even do it for free.

I was once on this forum advocating for an XP loss for death but I honestly just don't think it would really work well with this game unless they drastically change the party dynamic. I think gear damage and weakness is fine as is.
And no, this form of death penalty doesn't hurt people who solo challenging content.

Let's just be honest... people that solo challenging content can afford to fix their gear, if they can't fix it themselves.

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Originally Posted by Cendres

Nobody complains about it because it's not so punishing as this one. And for those asking for SP loss, again, get out of your comfort zone for five hours and go play something else. There's another world outside your FF cocoon.

It's not about gear degradation ITSELF, it's about how retardly fast it's going oncevy you hit return. Therefore IT'S NOT EVEN ABOUT DYING either. The leves are unbalanced as well and when you pair it all together it's a serious pain in the neck UNLESS you group. Which not all of us have the luxury of doing all the time.

At this time playing this game is not an option for me, I'm keeping an eye on lodestone notes and hoping to see something to the effect that either leves are adjusted or the return dp is OR we get reraise. It's not that hard to understand.

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First the game is too easy, now it is too hard. Make up your minds!! It can't all be candy and rainbows for just playing!

The results are in, it looks like the majority (at least on this forum) think gear damage and the current return upon death penalty is good. Or at least the one I proposed is too extreme.

So with that I ask the devs.... will you please put in reraise soon? Ty

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Originally Posted by TheVedis

yes please re-examine
it needs to be higher, lets say 25% per death and return

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I agree, Death went from nothing, to abit annoying. Make it matter!

Current Death penalty + experience loss and stat loss(with a way to regain stats through another system of interaction(not time)

It should take 3+ days of a casual grind to come close for a player to have to repair their gear. We see an abuse of a good system is all.

some info on gear death penalty from JP reps.

Copy/paste from my translation thread:

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JP side has a thread talking about suggestions/concerns on issues after 1.18 patch and rep got response on the following, more info should come next week from the Rep :)

Original Thread Link: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/17754

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Originally Posted by Mocchi

こんにちは。
Hello

フィードバックありがとうございます。
Thanks for the feedback

お寄せいただいた内容のうち、特に目立っていた以下の2案件について、吉田Pと松井に話を聞いてきました。
Out of the concerns you all have mentioned talked to Matsui and YoshiP regarding the 2 most standing.

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デスペナルティによる耐久度の減少が厳しいです。
The durability (gear damage) loss is too much on death penalty.

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1.18aの次にはなってしまいますが、低ランク帯のデスペナルティ軽減を目的として、以下のように変更する予定です。
This will be after 1.18a but planning to make lighter death penalty for lower ranks like below.

ランク 1～ 9　耐久度の減少ナシ - R1-9 No durability loss
ランク10～19　耐久度の減少を現在の半分に変更 - R10-19 Half of durability loss now.
ランク20～　　変更なし - R20~ No Change

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ケアルのコストが高くなり、ソロランク上げが厳しくなりました。
It became harder to solo since cure cost got high

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もう少しいろいろな調整を入れていきます。
Will make some more adjustments.

ソロの場合、同レベルのモンスターと戦闘した際、自身のHPの半分くらいが残る程度に調整していく予定です。
同レベルのモンスターでは修練値的においしくなさすぎるという場合には、同レベルモンスターを倒した時の修練値などの見直しをしていきます。
Planning to make adjustments so after battle on same level monster you will have about half of your HP left.

その他のいくつか案件についても、引き続き週明けに確認をしてきます。
On other concerns will check beginning of the week. (next week since its Sat Japan.)

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Originally Posted by Kallera

First the game is too easy, now it is too hard. Make up your minds!! It can't all be candy and rainbows for just playing!

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For the record I've never complained about the game being too easy. Secondly this problem shouldn't really affect people in groups with HEALERS, they gave us early raises for a reason correct? So if you're pugging/grouping with your LS mates of course you don't see the problem. :confused:

Thanks Reinheart for translation. Let's highlight the issue, soloers are getting gear owned. WTB reraise, thanks a bunch.

From all the feedback we have been receiving after patch 1.18, the below two subjects were always the ones that stood out the most so Mocchi discussed them with Yoshi-P and Matsui to try and get some insight on future plans.

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The durability hit resulting from being knocked out is really harsh.

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Though it will be during a patch following 1.18a, we are aiming to reduce the death penalty incurred for lower ranks and plan on changing it as outlined below.

Rank 1~9: No durability loss
Rank 10~19: Making it so the durability loss is half of what it is now
Rank 20~: No change

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With the cost of Cure being so high, it has become really difficult to rank up solo.

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We will be implementing various adjustments to this.

Our goal is to balance it so that when solo, if you engage a monster that is the same level, once the battle is over, you'll be left with somewhere around half your maximum HP. In regards to the SP not being too great for monsters that are the same level as you, we will be revamping the SP gained after defeating monsters of the same level.

We will be checking on other plans in the works next week.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Though it will be during a patch following 1.18a,

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I asked this on JP thread also but... does that mean we're getting 1.18b and not 1.19? Was thinking they would of put 1.19 if 1.19 was next but they didn't... I want my chocobo's and airship ><

I'm too excited for 1.19. It's hard to really do anything with the thought of Chocobo's and Airships right around the corner.

They probably mean something more along the lines of "We are going to implement as soon as we can but don't want to give you a promised date just yet, but it's something that we are working on!"

Off topic:

Who is going around to basically all the threads and making those stupid tags? It's kind of getting annoying, SE should really only allow us to put predefined keywords in the Tags, just let us select from a list instead of allowing us to type whatever to prevent its misuse like so

SE: Eat it high level newbs!

Here's an idea, make it so that literally every single leve isn't linking mobs guaranteed when solo. I don't even get why you do that.

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Originally Posted by Coldbrand

Here's an idea, make it so that literally every single leve isn't linking mobs guaranteed when solo. I don't even get why you do that.

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Mobs in parties are quite the pain when solo. Especially when it's 3 fachans at once on a DOW class. We can't expect them to update every single leve to where when solo mobs aren't in parties. They just have more important things to fix right now.. Best to just learn which leves are a pain and avoid them.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

We will be implementing various adjustments to this.

Our goal is to balance it so that when solo, if you engage a monster that is the same level, once the battle is over, you'll be left with somewhere around half your maximum HP. In regards to the SP not being too great for monsters that are the same level as you, we will be revamping the SP gained after defeating monsters of the same level.

We will be checking on other plans in the works next week.

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I hope SE isn't jumping the gun on the MP thing. I myself can solo equal level mobs without ever resting even with the occasional accidental double pull. After one kill I'm usually around 80-90%, or depending on resists, even max mp. And this is on Beastmen, the Amaljaa south of Halatali. I feel like a lot of people got stressed out by the change but with proper adjustments on the player's end of things, it's usually fine.

However with that said, I see a lot of issues in levequests that I feel is the primary source of these complaints. Some levequests are much harder than the level, like the leves where you have to check various destination points and have to kill monsters at each one. When you get to the final point for these quests, it's an automatic death for a mage. In addition, levequests that involve fighting parties of monsters can be extremely stressful for mages especially when resists come into play.

Instead of adjusting MP costs, I would like to see Square take a look at balancing leves and perhaps adjusting the spell resists formula so that it's less common to get resists on monsters +/- 3 or so levels. I think these two things would solve most of the complaints. As a Thaumaturge, I'm very satisfied with MP costs right now and don't really want to see them changed.

Yeah mobs are never really hard to kill for a DOW that are the same rank as you, even in parties of 3. It's the fact that we have to fight mobs 10 ranks above ours to even get decent sp both per mob and at the end of the leve. Soloing a mob 10 ranks above is easy, but fighting 3 at once can sometimes be too much.

This is the my whole problem with the DP, it mainly affects people who solo and try to maximize SP while doing so. Since it only triggers if you use return. If you are with a party you always have a raise there so you never really have to worry about dying because there is never any penalty. One person can almost always run off if things get too bad and come back and raise people.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

We will be implementing various adjustments to this.

Our goal is to balance it so that when solo, if you engage a monster that is the same level, once the battle is over, you'll be left with somewhere around half your maximum HP. In regards to the SP not being too great for monsters that are the same level as you, we will be revamping the SP gained after defeating monsters of the same level.

We will be checking on other plans in the works next week.

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Solo levelling is FAR from difficult.
I can easily take mobs that are 10 ranks above me, without resting once.
(Played on different classes, with different ranks).

Can't wait for death to become such a terrifying prospect in game that we go back to only doing safe mobs in camps with no chance of death, and never venture out and try more interesting monsters for 90% of the game.

Crab camps to 75 FOR LIFE. Lets do it!

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Originally Posted by Cendres

Edit: For those of you saying , I'll take this over SP loss!!?? Who the frack is asking for SP loss? Do you people even read the OP before hitting reply? Do yourself a favor go play something OTHER then XI or XIV Online for just a few hours. It doesn't have to be this way guys.

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I've seen it brought up a few times on the forum and hinted at in a few posts in this thread.

Mostly the people who ask for such extremes are masochists who only seem to enjoy a game when it abuses them relentlessly and want to inflict it on other players. Belittling people who disagree as 'casuals' because their idea of a game doesn't involve bloody digital self flagellation is a common response.

Repair system will suck until the markets can show repairers make a profit. Fix the markets, SE!

Phenidate I love your sig, especially the WoW part. I've tried to tell people WoW is the most famous "mmo clone" but they couldn't ever believe me.

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Originally Posted by Phenidate

I've seen it brought up a few times on the forum and hinted at in a few posts in this thread.

Mostly the people who ask for such extremes are toddlers who only seem to enjoy a game when it is handed to them on a platter and want to feel professionally good at their game without effort. Belittling people who disagree as 'hardcore' because their idea of a game doesn't involve any sembalance of strategy is a common response.

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There, fixed. You're not that much different you know.^^

Persnally I think all the death pentaly moaning would be solved if the main aetherite camps had repair NPC's in em, nice gold sinks as well.

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Originally Posted by Ava

However with that said, I see a lot of issues in levequests that I feel is the primary source of these complaints. Some levequests are much harder than the level, like the leves where you have to check various destination points and have to kill monsters at each one. When you get to the final point for these quests, it's an automatic death for a mage. In addition, levequests that involve fighting parties of monsters can be extremely stressful for mages especially when resists come into play.

Instead of adjusting MP costs, I would like to see Square take a look at balancing leves and perhaps adjusting the spell resists formula so that it's less common to get resists on monsters +/- 3 or so levels. I think these two things would solve most of the complaints. As a Thaumaturge, I'm very satisfied with MP costs right now and don't really want to see them changed.

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Perfect yes someone who understands. THAT is the problem, it's not the mobs themselves out in the field, it's NOT the mp pool. It's that leves are unbalanced.

I can solo mobs all day long, that's not the problem at all. Fix the leves for soloers, Ava you've explained it beautifully thank you.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Herp, derp, Herp derp derp herpity derp derpity derp ^^

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Ha ha, you're funny!, do you do standup or will you be gone in a week?

Only thing bad about Dur loss during death is there are WAY more tards now who are asking you to repair their stuff for less than mat costs... usually by half or more!!! From what I've seen this is the majority of people... remember people, don't be a cheap dumbass >.< Charge for cost of repair mat PLUS 1-2k Minimum!!! Anyone who repairs peoples grade 4-5 stuff for around 2k (Seems to be average) is just as bad and is encouraging these braindead tards.

Other than people having , derpa derp, no math skill, moments... Everythings perfect the way it is, of couse your stuff should break if you're at 100% and die 8 or so times >.< lmao Stop being anti-social and ask for a raise or become a better player/die less , it's that simple! Can't get a raise? Fine just return... but don't complain that things are harder when they are done solo (Which they should be) *Facepalm*

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Originally Posted by Misha

Only thing bad about Dur loss during death is there are WAY more tards now who are asking you to repair their stuff for less than mat costs... usually by half or more!!! From what I've seen this is the majority of people... remember people, don't be a cheap dumbass >.< Charge for cost of repair mat PLUS 1-2k Minimum!!! Anyone who repairs peoples grade 4-5 stuff for around 2k (Seems to be average) is just as bad and is encouraging these braindead tards.

Other than people having , derpa derp, no math skill, moments... Everythings perfect the way it is, of couse your stuff should break if you're at 100% and die 8 or so times >.< lmao Stop being anti-social and ask for a raise or become a better player/die less , it's that simple! Can't get a raise? Fine just return... but don't complain that things are harder when they are done solo (Which they should be) *Facepalm*

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I wholeheartedly second this post.

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Originally Posted by Misha

Only thing bad about Dur loss during death is there are WAY more tards now who are asking you to repair their stuff for less than mat costs... usually by half or more!!! From what I've seen this is the majority of people... remember people, don't be a cheap dumbass >.< Charge for cost of repair mat PLUS 1-2k Minimum!!! Anyone who repairs peoples grade 4-5 stuff for around 2k (Seems to be average) is just as bad and is encouraging these braindead tards.

Other than people having , derpa derp, no math skill, moments... Everythings perfect the way it is, of couse your stuff should break if you're at 100% and die 8 or so times >.< lmao Stop being anti-social and ask for a raise or become a better player/die less , it's that simple! Can't get a raise? Fine just return... but don't complain that things are harder when they are done solo (Which they should be) *Facepalm*

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Exactly. Enough of this nonsense. You want to blow through everything with only DoW classes? fine, but you will not be somehow exonerated from the other aspects of the game, this game, like many other MMOs and XI before it was designed to be a community, to facilitate groups to come together for common needs and causes, so of course options that involve soloing are going to be less rewarding or more costly or take longer, this isn't a single player game!

I put my items up for repair at 4k-5k, is that ok? :o

I wonder, if XI never deducted your exp from you upon death, would people still prefer that over durability loss? Or is it simply that they prefer it because they've grown used to it.

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Originally Posted by Misha

if you're at 100% and die 8 or so times >.< lmao Stop being anti-social and ask for a raise or become a better player/die less , it's that simple! Can't get a raise? Fine just return... but don't complain that things are harder when they are done solo (Which they should be) *Facepalm*

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Except it takes far less times then that. So fail on exaggerating on your part. And instead of being a complete online jackass why don't you educate the masses on how much you'd expect people to offer their gil for at what level?
Or you know let them rot until they figure out they are offering too low?

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Originally Posted by MattyWS

I put my items up for repair at 4k-5k, is that ok? :o

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I do too and I think it's fine, for gear levels 25 - 37. I see people put up level 45 stuff for 500 gil... And I get my stuff repaired right away and they stand there forever.. ^_^

Now, I'm not picking on anyone mind you, and this post of mine is a total waste of space... However, after reading the words "Durability" and "Derp" so many times, I've started to blur the two into "derpability".

please implement duck tape as a repair mat that anyone can use for any repair with no crafting skills.

The recent thread about repairs made me think of death penalties. Rather than making a new topic or hijacking the other thread, I just decided to post in a thread (necro even, hey, we're talking about death here) already on topic... albeit nearly four months old. So if someone sees nothing else... then see that this is where the thread restarts...

NECRO'D

Will be posting a rehash of thoughts in the next post.

Long post. Tldr version: Death penalties.

Death penalty considerations.

Concern: Players killing themselves as a form of transportation to conserve Anima.
Response: Addressed by removing anima cost from Return with a 30 minute cooldown.

Concern: Players may not play as well to avoid death if the death penalty is not severe enough. Weakness and Brink of Death reduce a player's survivability in combat for immediate returns.
Response: Rebirth. Items are present from Grand Companies to remove these effects, but don't seem to be commonplace in parties.

Concern: Death causes downtime and it seems to happen a lot. One mage can only revive so quickly.
Response: Everyone equips Raise, Resurrect, and/or Rebirth.

Death Penalty Laundry List
These death penalties are taken from other Final Fantasy games, other MMOs, and/or even FF14 as it is.

What death penalties would you like or NOT like to see?

No Death Penalty
You die, you return to home point, no gear damage, no weakness, jump back in. You may lose the time you spent getting back to the location though.

Time Out Weakling
Weakness, where your max HP and MP decrease for several minutes. If you abuse Weakness and rush to death again, Brink of Death for you. Now reduced performance and you're even more of a liability. It's time to sit in a corner and think about what you did and how you can avoid it next time.

Gear Damage
Death results in significant damage to gear durability. If your gear is damaged, as your items are damaged, you will lose the ability to contribute to the party. If you die too frequently, it's time for you and your party to go back to a camp for repairs, have someone whoop out their repair tools and Ifrit rewards to repair everyone's gear, but for the most part, regroup and evaluate how to improve survivability and get back into the fray.

Gear Drop
The extreme, you drop all your gear on your corpse when you die. Extreme and dangerous, when you die, gear drops that only you can recover for a short time, and if not recovered quickly enough, anyone else can loot it too. Corpses without gear disappear faster. The higher level you are, the more time you have to retrieve your corpse.

Experience Loss
You lose experience. In the extreme, you can de-level and cannot recover your experience with a corpse retrieval or paying a healer. Toned down, you lose experience, but cannot de-level. You can recover some amount of experience by retrieving your corpse, tombstone, and soul. You can have multiple corpses and retrieve some experience from each of them.

Hole In My Pocket
You lose gold/gil/munnies. Ran away from battle, lose gil. Get killed in a PvP, drop your ear and a percentage of your gold. Now THIS is a gilsink, but whew doggie, I would not want to be some crafter gillionaire leveling up a low level adventuring class and get killed. P.S. the gil vanishes. Or we could say the monsters repurpose it, who knows.

Hardcore
Your character is destroyed and all the equipment on them with it. You will want to have an uninterruptable power supply to modem, router, computer, and monitor to avoid power outage deaths. And hopefully some lag deaths caused by your ISP, don't settle for the cheap stuff.

A Death Penalty from another recent game translated into FFXIV laws.
When you die, you are afflicted with "Weakness", drop all XP for all of your levels, all your gil, and all your anima on your corpse. You cannot join a party while "Weakness" is afflicted and weakness is only removed with anima. When you don't have Weakness, you can join other players for jolly cooperation, but players can randomly invade your camps and kill you too. If you don't retrieve your corpse before dying again, your first corpse disappears, and thus... all the XP, gil, and anima with it. You cannot party or engage in PVP while Weakness is afflicted, and your character takes a massive polygon hit and looks so hideous, that you would derive more pleasure zooming in on a roegadyn's subligar while he does the wiggle-wiggle-wiggle-wiggle-wiggle-yeah!

How about death people can't use return? ^^
You need someone to resurrect you or your char would be dead to eternity