Who is gonna raid now with the iLvl 110 gear handed to people??

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Originally Posted by Edli

You really love showing off don't you? I bet you're going to come up with some old game that only you have played and we don't understand.

You still didn't answer my question, instead you throw some pointless internet meme at me.

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He is right though, the fights in this game are terribly easy with the exception of t5 pre-nerf. Even brutal coil was being cleared the 1st week of it's release. This game's raiding scene in a joke in contrast to any other AAA out there.

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Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

Then good sir/madam when would you suggest non-raiders are allowed to have any sense of progression for their characters? Once every six months? One a year? Once an expansion?

Who provided funding for you to have the unique, rare, valuable and exclusionary experiences you have had so far in second coil for the last three months? Was it just your static? Your whole FC? Perhaps only the raiding community? No, it was the entire player base that has been funding the game and thus, three months after the exclusionary content of second coil they are gearing up and can try tackling it with higher gear if they weren't confident enough before.

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There is progression for the non-raiding crowd. Raiders progressed from ilvl 90 to ilvl 110 and non raiders progressed from ilvl 90 to ilvl 100.

Raiders get new raids every six months.

Non-raiders get new CT style raids every six months.

When the next raid patch comes out, non- raiders will progress to ilvl120 most likely and raiders will progress to ilvl130.

Did you not play 2.0? It is the exact same thing. People still raided when the allagan weapons were still i90 and not i95. I do not see why people are crying over this. The odd number patches (2.1 and 2.3) seemed to be aimed at gearing people up in preparation for the next even number patch (2.2 and 2.4).

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Did you not play 2.0? It is the exact same thing. Some People still raided when the allagan weapons were still i90 and not i95. I do not see why people are crying over this. The odd number patches (2.1 and 2.3) seemed to be aimed at gearing people up in preparation for the next even number patch (2.2 and 2.4).

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Fixed for accuracy.

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Originally Posted by cryptic_angel

He is right though, the fights in this game are terribly easy with the exception of t5 pre-nerf. Even brutal coil was being cleared the 1st week of it's release. This game's raiding scene in a joke in contrast to any other AAA out there.

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Can't you check your ego for a second to help your arguments? I mean, whatever the game doesn't take 100+ wipes to down a boss, what a loss. Though if you're going to pooh pooh about how easy the content is then who cares if the rewards are trivialized?

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

I recognize that other people don't have time to raid and they don't deserve to have terrible gear forever.

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Yep ilvl 100... 1 step below raid gear is terrible gear to run those ilvl 60 dungeons. I see your point

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Originally Posted by JTribal

Tiggy, your response has earned you a proposal once the marriage system comes out.

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This made my day. :P

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Originally Posted by cryptic_angel

He is right though, the fights in this game are terribly easy with the exception of t5 pre-nerf. Even brutal coil was being cleared the 1st week of it's release. This game's raiding scene in a joke in contrast to any other AAA out there.

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By any other you mean what, WoW? I haven't seen a single sustainable AAA raiding-endgame format MMO in like, years other than that. They're all terribly imbalanced F2P catastrophes, corpses littering the industry, or like...Wildstar, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Worm

Can't you check your ego for a second to help your arguments? I mean, whatever the game doesn't take 100+ wipes to down a boss, what a loss. Though if you're going to pooh pooh about how easy the content is then who cares if the rewards are trivialized?

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You can't say in good faith that the difficulty of the raids in this game hold up against the difficulty of raids in other games. They just don't.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Did you not play 2.0? It is the exact same thing. People still raided when the allagan weapons were still i90 and not i95. I do not see why people are crying over this. The odd number patches (2.1 and 2.3) seemed to be aimed at gearing people up in preparation for the next even number patch (2.2 and 2.4).

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It has been stated several times that in 2.0 there was a lack of interest in raiding because of myth gear. That was the reason SE buffed the ilvl of the allagan weapons, because the BCoB had no other incentives other than BiS and Vanity at the time.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

Yep ilvl 100... 1 step below raid gear is terrible gear to run those ilvl 60 dungeons. I see your point

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IKR? I guess maybe that 3 extra intellect upgrade from the ilvl100 choker to the ilvl 110 choker was just too much for raiders to have!

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Originally Posted by cryptic_angel

t's humant nature to desire, covet, and want things that are rare, valuable, and exclusionary by nature. Get over it, human nature is not going to change.

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did you just answer yourself? you can desire and covet but other people can not desire and covet? other people should get over human nature not changing but you can't get over human nature not changing? what?

BiS /10chars

@Nel Celestine, I like your style.

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

He also seems to forget that when you're doing say 350 DPS that 10% is 35 more DPS. It's not insignificant.

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And let's multiply that performance x8. Yes, now it's more significant!

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

did you just answer yourself? you can desire and covet but other people can not desire and covet? other people should get over human nature not changing but you can't get over human nature not changing? what?

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To desire and covet are fine, we can squash the spoiled entitlement mentality though. There is a difference between justified entitlement and the spoiled child like entitlement.

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Originally Posted by cryptic_angel

There is progression for the non-raiding crowd. Raiders progressed from ilvl 90 to ilvl 110 and non raiders progressed from ilvl 90 to ilvl 100.

Raiders get new raids every six months.

Non-raiders get new CT style raids every six months.

When the next raid patch comes out, non- raiders will progress to ilvl120 most likely and raiders will progress to ilvl130.

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http://dengekionline.com/elem/000/000/881/881497/

――The third major patch, Patch 2.3, was released on July 8th. Based on impressions, it appears as if Patch 2.2 was catered to the hardcore users, while 2.3 is designed for the casual players. Was this deliberate?

To a certain extent, yes. Just as we have continued to implement the "Echo" in our patches, not everything is always focused on the latest end-game. But whenever the maximum item level is raised in a patch, we do need to include powerful items and the appropriately-difficult contents to match. And in the following patch, we'll want to fill in the power gap created by this increase with a variety of fun contents, such as what we did in 2.3. That is the basic patch cycle with FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by cryptic_angel

To desire and covet are fine, we can squash spoiled entitlement mentality though. There is a difference between justified entitlement and the spoiled child like entitlement.

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――The third major patch, Patch 2.3, was released on July 8th. Based on impressions, it appears as if Patch 2.2 was catered to the hardcore users, while 2.3 is designed for the casual players. Was this deliberate?

To a certain extent, yes. Just as we have continued to implement the "Echo" in our patches, not everything is always focused on the latest end-game. But whenever the maximum item level is raised in a patch, we do need to include powerful items and the appropriately-difficult contents to match. And in the following patch, we'll want to fill in the power gap created by this increase with a variety of fun contents, such as what we did in 2.3. That is the basic patch cycle with FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

@Nel Celestine, I like your style.

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Thanks ~bows~ I may not be the best, but I enjoy having fun.

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Originally Posted by cryptic_angel

You can't say in good faith that the difficulty of the raids in this game hold up against the difficulty of raids in other games. They just don't.

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Are you even reading? I'm saying you're whining about the raid content not being exclusionary enough while saying it's bad that raids are being deincentivized. Why's it matter if they pass out a piece or two from raids that people are probably mostly not running as a choice not as an aspect of actually being unable to do it. It's like you're so focused on massaging your ego you're just saying whatever. It's not so much about the game as it is you aggrandizing yourself on a forum.

Also if you think you're losing something by not having to wipe for weeks on HM Spine then by all means, WoW is always going to be there.

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Originally Posted by Black91CRX

Basically it's "I don't want others to have what I do".

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This argument has never been used before, really! It's more of a something like "You just didn't earn it". Because let's admit it, /afk'ing at Aetherytes/middle of the maps or /follow to whatever location was mentioned in whatever hunting linkshell(s) you happen to be in is just as much effort as having doing SCoB, right ? :rolleyes:

It's pretty simple, unlimited Sands is a mistake and a handout. It's the equivalent of giving people heroinc raiding gear in WoW because they can't clear LFR.

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Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

To obtain Best in Slot, one needs only run Second Coil and those whom consider themselves raiders have done so for well over three months now. Those not raiding second coil are now gearing up in another method but will ~NOT~ have best in slot gear. They can then use their current upgraded gear IF THEY SO CHOOSE to run Second Coil and obtain best in slot before 2.4.

If you feel the need to show off how much better you are as a raider by numbers rather than actions you can wait until 2.4 then. Otherwise go ahead and fill your small country with all the 'bad' players. (since apparently a small country is around 2 million people or less?) Just remember who pays for the development of your next tier of shiny shiny loot that you want to rub in people's faces.

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Let's be real, a lot of casuals are like migratory birds who stay for awhile until they no longer find the game fun but not until after they leave the game an empty husk without any depth of gameplay due to this very excuse.

WoW during its prime in WotLK had 12 millions members, much more than BC so you can guess who came along: casuals. There was actually a really good balance of hardcore content and casual content but the casuals were on a constant whining spree that the stuff was too hard, they should have access to all the rest of the content while not doing half the work for it. Blizzard fell for this crap and now, 2 expansions later siting at 7.x millions subs to date have they realized their mistakes and now they are trying to fix some parts of the mess they created it in their next expansion.

A good balance of both casual and hardcore content is required for a game to achieve maximum success yet anyone who dare suggests anything hardcore is quickly shut down by the casual player base under the excuse that they are deemed more important than the hardcore because of their numbers.

Yeah, real healthy for a game.

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Originally Posted by NoRyoKu

I hope that a lot of cool content be locked behind SCoB

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Preventing as many people as possible from having fun is a great idea.

I'm glad we arent being forced to do SCoB to get 110 gear, since there are so many awful/impatient players who will not run with first timers. Then begins again the DPS-length queues that someone with a real life knows theres better things to be doing.
CT/ST is the exception, since an alliance can carry many new players, and is generally more fun.
I'm not even doing hunts so avidly as to party up or listen out for linkshell calls, but if I see a group of 10+ people all nearby a mob i'm unfamilliar with then sure I'll toss a few hits in and see where it gets me over time.

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Originally Posted by cryptic_angel

To desire and covet are fine, we can squash the spoiled entitlement mentality though. There is a difference between justified entitlement and the spoiled child like entitlement.

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difference between the two is completely subjective. complaining about i110 seems spoiled when there's only one way to get i115.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

did you just answer yourself? you can desire and covet but other people can not desire and covet? other people should get over human nature not changing but you can't get over human nature not changing? what?

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Interestingly, there is no recorded innate human nature to "covet" outside of current capitalist society structures. It can be said that the impulse to covet is a byproduct of an artificially-constructed society that enforces excess accumulation as the means of survival, rather than some other social impetus - no other animal does this unless trained to do so by their environment.

Unfortunately, designing a game that does not cater to these impulses as a form of incentive is not possible, because our expectations as players have already been shaped by society. C'est la vie.

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Originally Posted by Shori

I'm glad we arent being forced to do SCoB to get 110 gear, since there are so many awful/impatient players who will not run with first timers. Then begins again the DPS-length queues that someone with a real life knows theres better things to be doing.

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Real life excuse died years ago, try something new. A lot of raiders play even less than the so call "I have a life" casuals.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

difference between the two is completely subjective. complaining about i110 seems spoiled when there's only one way to get i115.

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That excuse would hold weights if there was more than one single piece of gear that is i115.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Let's be real, a lot of casuals are like migratory birds who stay for awhile until they no longer find the game fun but not until after they leave the game an empty husk without any depth of gameplay due to this very excuse.

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Please Dwill tell us more about exactly how all MMORPGs work and how you know the million dollar formula for success.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

It's pretty simple, unlimited Sands is a mistake and a handout.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

A good balance of both casual and hardcore content is required for a game to achieve maximum success yet anyone who dare suggests anything hardcore is quickly shut down by the casual player base under the excuse that they are deemed more important than the hardcore because of their numbers.

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If you look not only at what I've posted in the past but listen to my podcast as well, you will see I am supportive of more options for endgame and that the sands behind handed out like candy was a mistake especially with people cheating their way to get them asap. However, non-raiders (Casual and mainstream alike) want to feel a sense of progression, not a barrier. Raiders however are the bleeding edge of content. I mean heck, they technically got a HARDER second coil this patch. Considering this is the THIRD patch that's a rather big deal.

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Originally Posted by Worm

Are you even reading? I'm saying you're whining about the raid content not being exclusionary enough while saying it's bad that raids are being deincentivized. Why's it matter if they pass out a piece or two from raids that people are probably mostly not running as a choice not as an aspect of actually being unable to do it. It's like you're so focused on massaging your ego you're just saying whatever. It's not so much about the game as it is you aggrandizing yourself on a forum.

Also if you think you're losing something by not having to wipe for weeks on HM Spine then by all means, WoW is always going to be there.

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I never said raids themselves should be exclusionary, you're putting words in my mouth. I think raids should be very accessible with the first few bosses being similar to CT difficulty and the last few bosses being harder than T9.

That's not what we are talking about here. We are not talking about raid accessibility. We are talking about incentives to raid.

Non-raiding players get new content every single patch. Raiders are getting four bosses every six months. Now the two groups are of course not mutually exclusive, but most raiders I know primarily play for raids. When raiders have less incentive to raid, you end up with an end game that looks like GW2. I loved GW2, but the end game for PvE was terrible. I don't want to see the end game raiding scene in ff14 flounder like it did in other games.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

difference between the two is completely subjective. complaining about i110 seems spoiled when there's only one way to get i115.

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Person A works 40 hours a week and feels entitled to a good paycheck.

Person B works half the time and wants 90% of the same pay for doing half of the same work.

It's not subjective, it is quantifiable and can be laid out in simple logical terms.

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Originally Posted by cryptic_angel

I don't want to see the end game raiding scene in ff14 flounder like it did in other games.

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So you're solution is kick non-raiders to the curb and deny them any sense of progression unless they raid?

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Originally Posted by cryptic_angel

I never said raids themselves should be exclusionary, you're putting words in my mouth. I think raids should be very accessible with the first few bosses being similar to CT difficulty and the last few bosses being harder than T9.

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Uh so HM Spine wasn't exclusionary? Look bud, you can keep telling everyone what you meant while they poke more and more holes in what you're saying, I don't care. Though I don't know how you're going to beat the drum for WoW and it's raid content while sobbing about how easy 14 is and somehow NOT characterize that as a call for more exclusion.

If you think I'm putting words in your mouth then you must not know what you're saying.

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Originally Posted by Krr

Interestingly, there is no recorded innate human nature to "covet" outside of current capitalist society structures.

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what do you define as "current"? isn't "Thou shalt not covet" Old Testament? if you need a Commandment to warn against it doesn't that mean it has existed for a really long time?

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Originally Posted by Dwill

WoW during its prime in WotLK had 12 millions members, much more than BC so you can guess who came along: casuals. There was actually a really good balance of hardcore content and casual content but the casuals were on a constant whining spree that the stuff was too hard, they should have access to all the rest of the content while not doing half the work for it. Blizzard fell for this crap and now, 2 expansions later siting at 7.x millions subs to date have they realized their mistakes and now they are trying to fix some parts of the mess they created it in their next expansion.

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I can't even begin to tell you how revisionist this narrative is. Post-Wrath WoW wasn't too easy; it was too twelve-damn boring and dry and Ghostcrawler couldn't get his head out of his rear when people told him the talent revamp totally ruined several specs.
The godawful lazy nostalgia design and obsessive recycling of dungeons and bosses nobody wanted to see or cared about again is what screwed up post-Cataclysm WoW, not some mystic plague of casuals that wanted to do ICC10 right before it became obsolete.

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Originally Posted by Edli

You really love showing off don't you? I bet you're going to come up with some old game that only you have played and we don't understand.

You still didn't answer my question, instead you throw some pointless internet meme at me.

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The only thing they changed is twisters because people still complain about latency. Now I have a question for you. How about the 80% who can't even get to twisters? Your telling me the event is too hard?


And since you ask lets see off the top of my head. Games that have raiding actually above and beyond group content and difficulty....

EverQuest - Released 1999... Still turning a profit and releasing content on a subscription based system
Everquest 2 - Released 2004... Still turning a profit and releasing content on a subscription based system
World of Warcraft - Released 2004. Likely the worst thing to ever happen to MMOs since it started the slippery slope that lead to this even being a discussion. Still harder
FFXI - Released 2002... Still turning a profit and releasing content on a subscription based system
Rift - Released 2011... Actually only legit F2P MMO I've heard of (aka doesn't lock content or any features behind a sub or put you at a disadvantage if you don't pay). Ridiculously hard content.




Couple MMOs who have had this "who needs high end raiding" attitude.

Star Wars: ToR - Released 2011.. Such a failure had to go to a F2P model within 5 months.
Age of Conan - Released 2008.. Failed. "Player reactions were overwhelmingly negative in the months following the release" "total lack of end-game content."



let me know what MMOs you would like to see added.

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Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

So you're solution is kick non-raiders to the curb and deny them any sense of progression unless they raid?

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Well lets see... a sense of progression you say.

Step 1: Gaining levels 1-50
Step 2: Doing dungeons for the "started 50" gear (whatever ilvl currently drops). Also starting your relic
Step 3: Acquiring ilvl 100 through currency from doing before mentioned dungeons.
Step 4: Finishing Relic.


So your right if you can't go from 100 to 110 without raiding you clearly have NO SENSE OF PROGRESSION. Omg I totally see your point. Up until ilvl 110 there was no progression to be had oh my.

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Originally Posted by Worm

Please Dwill tell us more about exactly how all MMORPGs work and how you know the million dollar formula for success.

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Well lets see.. The history of MMOs has showed us what? Oh that's right every MMO with in depth large amounts of high end challenging raid content are STILL AROUND. Also making profit and retaining a subscription based model.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

So your right if you can't go from 100 to 110 without raiding you clearly have NO SENSE OF PROGRESSION. Omg I totally see your point. Up until ilvl 110 there was no progression to be had oh my.

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Oh I'm sorry, perhaps because this is a catch up patch, http://dengekionline.com/elem/000/000/881/881497/ , that means instead it should be for raiders to catch up a lead?


To a certain extent, yes. Just as we have continued to implement the "Echo" in our patches, not everything is always focused on the latest end-game. But whenever the maximum item level is raised in a patch, we do need to include powerful items and the appropriately-difficult contents to match. And in the following patch, we'll want to fill in the power gap created by this increase with a variety of fun contents, such as what we did in 2.3. That is the basic patch cycle with FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

what do you define as "current"? isn't "Thou shalt not covet" Old Testament? if you need a Commandment to warn against it doesn't that mean it has existed for a really long time?

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Current in this case meaning the systems of market that have existed for millions of years, so I guess "current" is a bad turn of phrase, yeah. Covetous human societies have existed for a long, long time. They were awful viewed as awful, poisonous things anathema to our survival, which is why we wrote books warning against them. Sadly, those beliefs were repurposed a long, long time ago.

Still, we have developed many societies that didn't rely on accumulation and greed as the main mechanism of human survival. We also like to conveniently forget about them or write them off as savages when our forefathers conquered them in the name of...well, having more land to "survive" with.

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Originally Posted by Worm

Uh so HM Spine wasn't exclusionary? Look bud, you can keep telling everyone what you meant while they poke more and more holes in what you're saying, I don't care. Though I don't know how you're going to beat the drum forWoW and it's raid content while sobbing about how easy 14 is and somehow NOT characterize that as a call for more exclusion.

If you think I'm putting words in your mouth then you must not know what you're saying.

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I made ONE post about difficulty and yet disregard the rest of what I have said. Sure, HC fights are exclusionary by nature of skill, raid composition, and resources. You can cherry pick your arguments all you like, it's plain as day to see that.

You can have both casual friendly bosses and exclusionary bosses within one raid. Look at icc 25 back from WotLK. The first wing was a loot pinata where the most casual of players could enter. The last boss of each wing after that was much more challenging with the LK being the most difficult fight. But please, keep going on about one post I made and disregard all the other points, it seems to be your strong suit.

If you don't care, stop replying then. Really simple.

I care about the raiding scene and what will keep bleeding edge raiders in this game. I don't care about friends and family groups that barely get T8 down one week from the third binding coil being released. I don't play with those people.

If you think ff14 is OMGWHATISTHIS difficult, great, good for you. I don't find it that difficult and your interpretations of what I say are just that, your interpretation.

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Originally Posted by Nel_Celestine

So you're solution is kick non-raiders to the curb and deny them any sense of progression unless they raid?

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Non-raiders have progression. They went from ilvl90 gear (myth gear) to ilvl100 gear (soldiery gear).

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Originally Posted by Krr

Current in this case meaning the systems of market that have existed for millions of years, so I guess "current" is a bad turn of phrase, yeah. Covetous human societies have existed for a long, long time. They were awful viewed as awful, poisonous things anathema to our survival, which is why we wrote books warning against them. Sadly, those beliefs were repurposed a long, long time ago.

Still, we have developed many societies that didn't rely on accumulation and greed as the main mechanism of human survival. We also like to conveniently forget about them or write them off as savages when our forefathers conquered them in the name of...well, having more land to "survive" with.

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If you go back far enough, people coveted other people over signs of fertility such as big hips and large mammary glands.

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Originally Posted by cryptic_angel

Person A works 40 hours a week and feels entitled to a good paycheck.

Person B works half the time and wants 90% of the same pay for doing half of the same work.

It's not subjective, it is quantifiable and can be laid out in simple logical terms.

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first, gaming isn't a job.

second, it takes X amount of development hours to design High Allagan armor, it takes Y amount of development hours to design Soldiery armor. only one group can have X+Y. and i'm pretty sure Y/[X+Y] is not 90%.

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

Well lets see.. The history of MMOs has showed us what? Oh that's right every MMO with in depth large amounts of high end challenging raid content are STILL AROUND. Also making profit and retaining a subscription based model.

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Don't you feel even slightly disingenuous calling EQ1 or EQ2 a 'subscription based model'. How does paying an extra 10 bucks for a second attack animation for your OP vampire race qualify as subscription in your mind? Also pretending ToR's issue was just raiding. Honestly, you can make your argument without these crazy untruths.

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Originally Posted by cryptic_angel

If you think ff14 is OMGWHATISTHIS difficult, great, good for you. I don't find it that difficult and your interpretations of what I say are just that, your interpretation.

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For a guy who gets so crazy about people putting words in his mouth you sure like to do it yourself. You're just all over the place. Try to make a different thread about raiding in general if you want, but in the context of them deincentivizing raiding yes the content being easy is probably a big reason of why it's not a big deal to the developers. We're talking about where the game is now, not your ideal MMORPG. The content's easy so it's not that big of a crime they pass out some of the stuff.

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Originally Posted by cryptic_angel

You can have both casual friendly bosses and exclusionary bosses within one raid. Look at icc 25 back from WotLK. The first wing was a loot pinata where the most casual of players could enter. The last boss of each wing after that was much more challenging with the LK being the most difficult fight.

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The MMO term that would sum this up nicely.

Gatekeeper mobs/events. Every MMO with half decent raiding has them in pretty much every expansion. The fight that makes even the best guilds fall flat on their face and is the gatekeeper between the low end raid guild friendly content and the content that is going to punish you every step of the way. Often being a bit harder than some of the fights to follow.

Case and point... The Rathe Council. Anyone who was around for that knows exactly what I'm talking about.

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Originally Posted by Worm

Don't you feel even slightly disingenuous calling EQ1 or EQ2 a 'subscription based model'. How does paying an extra 10 bucks for a second attack animation for your OP vampire race qualify as subscription in your mind? Also pretending ToR's issue was just raiding. Honestly, you can make your argument without these crazy untruths.

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Uhh... Do you even play EQ? You can't even wear gear or gain anything past 1k AA (there are over 12k) without a sub. Their "silver membership" free shenanigans is a outright lie and no one is at level cap without a sub. That's like saying WoW is F2P because you can get level 20 without a sub.

I'll log on tonight and raid in EQ on my silver.. Oh wait I have 10k hp/mana because I can't wear my gear that puts me at 120k hp/mana. Yep totally F2P.

EQ2 follows a similar model. Limiting spells, AA, etc.

OP definitely has a point. my friend hit 50 yesterday on his first class (scholar if anyone's interested lmao). He hit the hunts, did his relic quest, upgraded to zenith, bought a couple of soldiery items and is nooow... ilvl 91. All in the space of a day or two. I'm ilvl 93, have done garuda and titan ex, all hard modes, he's not even touched hard mode dungeons yet, i've done coil 1 - 4, attempted 5. Grinded my ass off for the last couple months to get where I am now. I mean i'm happy for the guy, he's a good friend and it's good to be able to run extremes with him, but seriously square enix, this is some mad undermining of peoples' effort.

Technically i could have unsubbed for the last couple months, come on when hunts came out and got the same gear progress in a day.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

first, gaming isn't a job.

second, it takes X amount of development hours to design High Allagan armor, it takes Y amount of development hours to design Soldiery armor. only one group can have X+Y. and i'm pretty sure Y/[X+Y] is not 90%.

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It's called a metaphore, I think we all know that gaming is not a job. Please stop making such moot points.

Takes almost 0% development time to increase ilvl110 HA to ilvl115 HA. This would all be a non issue if all HA gear was ilvl 115

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Originally Posted by cryptic_angel

Takes almost 0% development time to increase ilvl110 HA to ilvl115 HA. This would all be a non issue if all HA gear was ilvl 115

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Haha, how petty can you get?

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Originally Posted by Zarzak

Uhh... Do you even play EQ? You can't even wear gear or gain anything past 1k AA (there are over 12k) without a sub. Their "silver membership" free shenanigans is a outright lie and no one is at level cap without a sub. That's like saying WoW is F2P because you can get level 20 without a sub.

EQ2 follows a similar model. Limiting spells, AA, etc.

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Hold on so isn't TOR still going strong with the "Subscription Model" too then? I'm pretty sure you can't use purple rarity gear without a sub.

This thread is pointless. The i110 gear only has 2 purposes. Stat increase for the purpose of raiding and personal desire/aesthetics(looks/satisfaction of being i110). The i110 gear only has a functional purpose in raiding content and someone who just wanted it for reason 2 is better off not raiding in the first place. Obtaining gear in this manner allows new players to raid in a reasonable time frame otherwise the population of raiders would decline dramatically. Imagine if it took a new level 50 8 months to go through the same process of gathering darklight etc and slowly inching their way to a reasonable level. Start thinking and stop complaining if people see your Allagan gear they know your a raider so stop being childish over the minor stat differences of your peers.

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Originally Posted by Worm

Haha, how petty can you get?


Hold on so isn't TOR still going strong with the "Subscription Model" too then?

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Going strong? Lol one would pay their subs and has been deemed a failure if you READ.