Dragoons need to be buffed...

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

Damage done isn't really the only thing that bugs me, there are times when casters lose DPS for having to constantly avoid stuff, Monks lose DPS if they have to constantly run away from the target and are forced to drop GL, but they all have something else to bring on the field, Summoners having the ability to resurrect, use Eye for an Eye and Virus. Monks have Mantra and Stun (AotD, One Ilm Punch for mobs). Bards have songs and Black Mages have Apocatastasis, (Sleep for mobs). Meanwhile Dragoons only have two stuns, of which the other is often simply used for a rotation as an extra hit. Strength bonus for Light/Full groups would be one thing, but Monks provide that too.

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You sound like one of my friends. What they need to put in is a pure support class. (with some soloability for story stuff obviously) As a damage dealer, all I care about is blowing crap up. From the perspective of a BLM, I don't particularly care for using Eye for an Eye on tanks or Virus on mobs but I do it anyway.

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

..Or classes balanced otherwise, I'm a bit surprised that I didn't see a thread about this.

I don't like it that while Dragoons are a pure DPS class with no support skills, Monk can still dish out more damage AND have support skills, namely Mantra, Arm of the Destroyer(silence) and One Ilm Punch(Dispell).

As a pure DPS class, Dragoons should naturally have higher DPS than monks, not to mention that when I was browsing the questions and answers about patch 2.3, I almost flipped a table when I saw that a question about "buffing Black Mages" got through.

Am I really the only one who thinks this crap does not, or shouldn't fly?

P.S. Don't even mention Disembowel to aid Bards, I'm aware of it, but I don't feel like being a Bard's "squire".

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Man... this guy is the reason DRGs get made fun of.

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Originally Posted by mythicrose

Outside of Demon Wall in AK (only cannot reach the rear) how often does this occur? No other fight comes to mind. A monk, however, will lose more dps when boss mechanics cause GL to drop off over a dragoon starting up again (as noted by Jet).

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It's irrelevant if such situations are forced on the classes or not. The point is how mandatory the positions are. In other words, who can get by without their position-based abilities more readily.

I'm inclined to agree that DRG's need something in the way of a buff. Player's like to claim positional awareness is so much more challenging on a MNK when the only loss is potency yet they still are allowed to combo into their next ability. On DRG any missed positional attack renders your next combo null and void. And from my experience even when I appear to tag an enemy from the flank while it's moving using heavy thrust the effect doesn't render. It's similar to casters trying to land a spell while a target is moving and the spell just gets canceled. And for some reason the vast majority of enemies in coil can only be "silenced" yet never "stunned" rendering leg sweep and spineshatter dive as nothing more than filler for weaving.

But of course, Dragoon's single biggest flaw in my opinion and the sole reason it has the reputation that it does is the flawed design of it's jump abilities. The inherent lag after a jump is unforgivable and punishing. Now, most will say, "Just learn the fight and you should never jump at the wrong time". While this is absolutely true, even the most seasoned Dragoon's still choke at times attempting to weave in jumps just to compete with other dps. If you were to look at the jump mechanic from a logical perspective, jumping "into the air" should make you invulnerable to nearly all ground based aoe since you are in the air. But the reality of such a trait would open the doors for boss mechanic abuse. And this whole talk of, "Well DRG's are beefier and have more HP" is horse shit. As others have stated, most of the attacks in coil seem to be magic based rendering DRG's high defense and HP pool moot.

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Originally Posted by Karasumori

But of course, Dragoon's single biggest flaw in my opinion and the sole reason it has the reputation that it does is the flawed design of it's jump abilities. The inherent lag after a jump is unforgivable and punishing.

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That was fixed in like 2.1...

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

That was fixed in like 2.1...

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True this ^

The way I see it is . . . these "polearm" users are all trying to compensate for something . . . . if you catch my drift :P

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Originally Posted by Aeora

True this ^

The way I see it is . . . these "polearm" users are all trying to compensate for something . . . . if you catch my drift :P

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Honestly, I went dragoon originally cause our armor (AF/Myth) is sexy as hell, at least on us girls. But now I find myself drawn to the fishnets of blm.

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Originally Posted by Karasumori

On DRG any missed positional attack renders your next combo null and void. And from my experience even when I appear to tag an enemy from the flank while it's moving using heavy thrust the effect doesn't render.

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This common argument is quite irritating. All DRG positional requirements are at the beginning of their combos, which means it's not like they have to restart an entire chain for missing a positional. Basically all you lost was a little bit of potency, which is exactly what would happen to a MNK if they miss a positional. The end effect is still the same where you both lose about 50 potency in that specific GCD.

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Originally Posted by Riichi

This common argument is quite irritating. All DRG positional requirements are at the beginning of their combos, which means it's not like they have to restart an entire chain for missing a positional. Basically all you lost was a little bit of potency, which is exactly what would happen to a MNK if they miss a positional. The end effect is still the same where you both lose about 50 potency in that specific GCD.

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Thats not how the math works though. When you miss your impulse drive that means you cant use your disembowel as planned next. Your rotation changes and because of that all the times on your buffs/debuffs and dots change, increasing the time it takes you to do your actual strong skills like full thrust or chaos thrust in your rotation, resulting in a higher loss in dps then just the missed potency of the actual positional attack. When a MNK misses his dragon kick you can still do twin snakes/true strike next in your rotation as if nothing happened, so its really "just" a potency loss for MNKs while in DRGs case its not.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

Thats not how the math works though. When you miss your impulse drive that means you cant use your disembowel as planned next. Your rotation changes and because of that all the times on your buffs/debuffs and dots change, increasing the time it takes you to do your actual strong skills like full thrust or chaos thrust in your rotation, resulting in a higher loss in dps then just the missed potency of the actual positional attack. When a MNK misses his dragon kick you can still do twin snakes/true strike next in your rotation as if nothing happened, so its really "just" a potency loss for MNKs while in DRGs case its not.

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That's fine, but MNK also has more opportunities to lose a positional, thus over time balancing out the positional DPS loss between the classes. I'd wager a MNK loses more positional bonuses than a DRG, simply because they have more chances to do so.

Anyway whatever, I feel like we're saying the same thing and our difference of opinion is mostly semantics etc. etc. DRG is in a good position. Whatever DPS they lack is made up for by the increase in damage a BRD gets from Disembowel and should be counted as DRG DPS because it is damage the DRG makes possible, just like how Foe's Requiem DPS should be counted as BRD DPS (in my opinion). I don't think it's standard practice to "shift" DPS numbers from one class to another like that, but it seems entirely appropriate to me.

This has devolved into what every argument does. I've no desire to even do it anymore. At some point willful ignorance is just too exhausting to combat.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

That was fixed in like 2.1...

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Eh, Jump is still terrible. I VERY rarely find a situation in which I want to deliver a single attack 20 feet away and zip back to where I was =\

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

This has devolved into what every argument does. I've no desire to even do it anymore. At some point willful ignorance is just too exhausting to combat.

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Bahaha, but we have to keep the narbs from listening to terrible logic!

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

Thats not how the math works though. When you miss your impulse drive that means you cant use your disembowel as planned next. Your rotation changes and because of that all the times on your buffs/debuffs and dots change, increasing the time it takes you to do your actual strong skills like full thrust or chaos thrust in your rotation, resulting in a higher loss in dps then just the missed potency of the actual positional attack. When a MNK misses his dragon kick you can still do twin snakes/true strike next in your rotation as if nothing happened, so its really "just" a potency loss for MNKs while in DRGs case its not.

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WTF are you talking about. No dps much less a drg will macro rotations. if you can't modify your rotation and work your damage into the content at hand..then much less a drg, you won't even be an effective mnk,brd,blm,smn, etc, etc, etc.

If you're going to say "wa, wa I miss a ID, my rotation and dps has gone to heck, boo I better pop b2b because my rotation is set that way".

That's all you, not the job.

Just like you don't pop all your CD and then have a primal jump. It's your own dang fault for not matching the pace of a fight.

Any dps will change their rotation and buffs to accommodate for mishaps, scripts, and mechanics.

IF you miss a ID, big freaking woop, ID again, shorten your rotation, and weave back into a proper rotation.

and I don't think you even know mnk to speak of it. Mnks have to switch up their rotation as natural as breathing, much less a simple drg retry rotation.

If you miss an ID, big deal, modify your rotation. If you miss a heavy thrust, big deal, drgs always start a rotation on HT.

Try asking a blm how many time he cries when he has to sit on a firestarter that can't be used. Cry me a river.

He's not complaining. He's calmly explaining how Dragoon actually works.

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

Eh, Jump is still terrible. I VERY rarely find a situation in which I want to deliver a single attack 20 feet away and zip back to where I was =\

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Why the hell would you use it from 20 feet away? Power Surge + Jump is 300 potency off GCD, and perfectly easy to use at melee range.

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

He's not complaining. He's calmly explaining how Dragoon actually works.

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We should all know how a Drg works. Some people just have the grass is greener, whine whine effect. Drgs do not loose a crap ton of damage from a simple miss. Content isn't a training dummy, a good drg will have several ways to change their rotation to fit the content.

And if you play a mnk or a blm, it's heck a easier for a drg to pick themselves up then some other classes.

How drg actually works, indeed.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Why the hell would you use it from 20 feet away? Power Surge + Jump is 300 potency off GCD, and perfectly easy to use at melee range.

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Technically that stupid jump animation even with the best clipping, will often exceed the off-GCD limit between your skills. And realistically jump you either pair with power surge or save for bursts in most fights that matter anyway. Hard to say as there are so many situations .

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Technically that stupid jump animation even with the best clipping, will often exceed the off-GCD limit between your skills. And realistically jump you either pair with power surge or save for bursts in most fights that matter anyway. Hard to say as there are so many situations .

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I've never had it exceed the "off-GCD limit between skills" by any significant degree. I do only use it with Power Surge, but that's partly because I tend to lose track of its cd and would end up having to delay Power Surge as a result, so I find it simpler to just always pair it with Power Surge.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-p...shiftyeyes.gif

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Originally Posted by Aeora

Plus the fact that the Drg class requires a lot less skill than the monk class. . . .well "a lot less" may be an exaggeration but it certainly requires next to no thought on rotations.
Monk should do more damage than a drg. . . because they're better :3

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Funny each time I play my monk I actually think the opposite. Monk is a no brainer, Dragoon you need to hit everything up whenever its activated, its tricky and its the beauty of it. Monk you just need how to not refresh things too early and manage your tp + the occasional stun burst and howling fist, I mean ... yeah, but no

As a dragoon for example Melusine is way harder than on a monk due to how Heavy Thrust work and when it fall off even if you do things perfectly. Like, when she's throwin fireballs and you gotta refresh it ? be 1 second a bit too late and feel the loss.

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So far I've gotten the impression that a Dragoon is pretty much only good for buffing Bard DPS and for not wasting dropped gear...

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Hit me up on Exodus, name is Magami Tsuki and I'll be glad to do a titan extreme with you to show you what a drag can actually do

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

I've never had it exceed the "off-GCD limit between skills" by any significant degree. I do only use it with Power Surge, but that's partly because I tend to lose track of its cd and would end up having to delay Power Surge as a result, so I find it simpler to just always pair it with Power Surge.

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I really wish they would adjust the CD for Power Surge. I feel like it's only worth using Jump with Power Surge, which means Jump is really a 60sec CD instead of 40 sec. I don't know how other Drgs feel, but if PS was 80 sec instead of 60 we could at least use Jump on CD instead of holding on to it. (Unless I'm totally wrong, it basically means 1 extra jump in a 5 min time period)

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Originally Posted by Sygmaelle

Funny each time I play my monk I actually think the opposite. Monk is a no brainer, Dragoon you need to hit everything up whenever its activated, its tricky and its the beauty of it. Monk you just need how to not refresh things too early and manage your tp + the occasional stun burst and howling fist, I mean ... yeah, but no

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Pot-kettle there, ya know.

That's what mnks says to drgs that says to mnks, while blms try to go into a 3 way, with the smn walking in with a smirk.

Mnks live and breath on positional, and strafes. Drg by that standing is hardly that difficult to a mnk which has slower AA, slower GCD, and 2 positionals, with a javelin thrown in.

Drgs by comparison has a lot of non-looping moves but in a real fight, it's stupidly impossible to ever get a 24 sequential and "merely" dumb down to a priority flow chart.

It's a dream to play 2 positional, and one dot(chaos thrust doesn't count because it's a combo and thus a static set), to a mnk.

Just dealing with topping off Auto Attack on a mnk is a ride itself given how much they need to move, compare to a "loldrg"

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Just dealing with topping off Auto Attack on a mnk is a ride itself given how much they need to move, compare to a "loldrg"

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You've got your opinion, others have their own. Let it rest. I notice missing a positional far more on a dragoon than monk. You're also exaggerating monk play as you can literally sit on the target reticule's edge for minimal movement. Yes, I play both. Both are easy and have their own pros and cons.

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Originally Posted by Hybris-Maenad

Don't forget your double ended mobility(spineshatter dive and elusive jump) plus the fact that you can drop aggro(and heavy^^) immediatly with elusive jump.

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Both of which have long cooldowns in comparison to shoulder tackle? Is ST perfect? No, of course not as it has a dead zone. However, I would love a 30second gap closer (or remove the "return to origin" on Jump for a 40 second gap closer).

Both classes, regardless, perform well.

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

.... Meanwhile Dragoons only have two stuns, of which the other is often simply used for a rotation as an extra hit.

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Don't forget your double ended mobility(spineshatter dive and elusive jump) plus the fact that you can drop aggro(and heavy^^) immediatly with elusive jump.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Why the hell would you use it from 20 feet away? Power Surge + Jump is 300 potency off GCD, and perfectly easy to use at melee range.

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I'm not talking about potency, I'm talking about the mechanical aspect of the ability, it sucks.

Of course you can use it at melee range, I just dislike how it keeps you planted for a long time. There's no benefit to the ability jumping you to the enemy, and then back. If ya really want that functionality for some reason, just put a shorter cooldown on Elusive Jump, and allow us to Elusive back away from the mob after a jump.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Pot-kettle there, ya know.

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Still doesnt make the monk any hard to play since all you have to look after is GL and duration of your buffs / when you need to refresh it, rest is pretty much the same than dragoon : where we have to apply dis asap on a target that need to die, monk just open up with Dkick straight after they just refreshed GL3 ... its not quite workin like that for us

I understand and respect your point of view that said, its just that to me that is like some others here, playin both, I find monk to be easier

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

We should all know how a Drg works. Some people just have the grass is greener, whine whine effect. Drgs do not loose a crap ton of damage from a simple miss. Content isn't a training dummy, a good drg will have several ways to change their rotation to fit the content.

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You can't circumvent the mechanics of the game by being 'good'. You keep insisting this is a question of opinion when it isn't. DRGs do lose a ton of damage each and every time a heavy thrust or impulse drive is missed for all the reasons already articulated in this thread. That isn't debatable no matter how much you insist because it's verifiable.

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

You can't circumvent the mechanics of the game by being 'good'. You keep insisting this is a question of opinion when it isn't. DRGs do lose a ton of damage each and every time a heavy thrust or impulse drive is missed for all the reasons already articulated in this thread. That isn't debatable no matter how much you insist because it's verifiable.

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And you are insisting that you can't make up 3 seconds of buff drop time and 60pot or so of positional damage. Oh cry me a river.

You can even have no changes at all to whatever rotation that you don't seem to want to modify, and still your lost is 15% or so for 3-5 seconds.

Wee that's a whole miss auto attack there.

The whole drg rotation is based on non clipping ideal. Clipping it or delaying it is not the end of the world when it happens.

Every DPS on the map has it much worse the drg in that respect

I don't get why it's so hard for some of you to understand that monk with the highest variance in DPS (from keeping up GL3 or not, other debuff/buff) should have the highest ceiling compared to DRG that can get right back after 3 GCD (HT->ID->Dis).

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Originally Posted by Sygmaelle

Funny each time I play my monk I actually think the opposite. Monk is a no brainer, Dragoon you need to hit everything up whenever its activated, its tricky and its the beauty of it. Monk you just need how to not refresh things too early and manage your tp + the occasional stun burst and howling fist, I mean ... yeah, but no

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Did you happen to forget about having to try and keep up GL3 which only allows 6 seconds of disconnect?

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Originally Posted by Sygmaelle

As a dragoon for example Melusine is way harder than on a monk due to how Heavy Thrust work and when it fall off even if you do things perfectly.

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Melusine has a set rotations of when she's going to do Circle of Flame. It's not hard to adjust and still get Heavy Thrust in or even Impulse Drive.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9917jlq1o1ru4obv.gif

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Originally Posted by Sygmaelle

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Monk is definitely not a no brainer because you have to keep track of where you are for each attack you use and your rotation is constantly changing (or at least that's how it feels). It's extremely difficult for me because I have ADHD and it just overwhelms my focus trying to keep track of all that and dodge aoes. I have a similar problem with Summoner because it's got no set rotation, but rather constantly adjusting its order (in many ways worse than monk, actually, but without the position-based issue to also worry about so that lessons the burden).

BLM, DRG, and BRD work much better for me because the rotations on blm and drg are much more straight forward and don't constantly shift, with far less to keep track of (though I also admit I use a slightly simplified drg rotation that's not going to quite succeed at reaching max potential dps, but I work within my limitations to do the best I can). Bard lacks a set rotation, kinda like summoner, but is still much simpler, since it pretty much boils down to "spam Heavy Thrust, activate procs, refresh venomous/wind bite.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

And you are insisting that you can't make up 3 seconds of buff drop time and 60pot or so of positional damage. Oh cry me a river.

You can even have no changes at all to whatever rotation that you don't seem to want to modify, and still your lost is 15% or so for 3-5 seconds.

Wee that's a whole miss auto attack there.

The whole drg rotation is based on non clipping ideal. Clipping it or delaying it is not the end of the world when it happens.

Every DPS on the map has it much worse the drg in that respect

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I'm with Kuku here. Missing once or twice, or even 3 times is *in my experience* not usually detrimental in something like a 10 min fight (to either job). If it's a constant problem then yes, it would be a huge dps loss and needs to be corrected. The only exception I can see is in strictly burst-damage situations where absolutely every GCD counts.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

And you are insisting that you can't make up 3 seconds of buff drop time and 60pot or so of positional damage. Oh cry me a river.

You can even have no changes at all to whatever rotation that you don't seem to want to modify, and still your lost is 15% or so for 3-5 seconds.

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Good lord, you're dense. Is there a time machine ability I'm unaware of? If not the answer is yes. I cannot make up that time. Potential DPS loss is lost because that's... how... it... works.

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

Good lord, you're dense. Is there a time machine ability I'm unaware of? If not the answer is yes. I cannot make up that time. Potential DPS loss is lost because that's... how... it... works.

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SO how is that different from ever other class.

Everyone knows that it is delaying higher potency combos faster(oooh nos my Chaos thrust is going to come later), and a retry slows that, but only you seem to believe it is some pinnacle of importance. But smell the roses, every class has that problem.

You're calling dense when... in the end it's a minor issue. 1st step failure starts from step1, not step 2 or step 3, step1.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I'm with Kuku here. Missing once or twice, or even 3 times is *in my experience* not usually detrimental in something like a 10 min fight (to either job). If it's a constant problem then yes, it would be a huge dps loss and needs to be corrected. The only exception I can see is in strictly burst-damage situations where absolutely every GCD counts.

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I don't think the severity over a protracted fight was ever the point of contention. At least, that's not anything I've discussed

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

I'm not talking about potency, I'm talking about the mechanical aspect of the ability, it sucks.

Of course you can use it at melee range, I just dislike how it keeps you planted for a long time. There's no benefit to the ability jumping you to the enemy, and then back. If ya really want that functionality for some reason, just put a shorter cooldown on Elusive Jump, and allow us to Elusive back away from the mob after a jump.

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It doesn't keep you planted for a long time, and it hasn't done so since 2.1. Do you even bother trying to move/activate an ability or do you just assume you have to wait for the whole animation to finish? You're just making yourself sound ignorant.

I did find the mechanic awkward when I first started playing (and to be fair, the mechanic -was- awkward back then because it needed tweaking, which it got), but I was also used to games with gap closers, and the only game with an ability that resembled Jump had it on a ranged champion and it acted as a short stun/interrupt upon hitting the target while placing you at your max basic attack range (regardless of whether you were closer or further away before activating the ability).

However, it was easy to see why they designed it how they did, especially since they did also give us two other targeted gap closers (spineshatter and dragonfire) as well as a non-targeted ability that can also be used as a gap closer (elusive jump). Jump is designed to mimic the original Dragoon ability of Jump as it was in every FF prior to FFXI. Granted, this is largely a visual thing since it worked this way because of the mechanics in the old FF games, but it's something I rather like and after they fixed the "locked down" aspect of the jumps in 2.1, it's worked perfectly fine mechanically while still maintaining the old FF feel.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

SO how is that different from ever other class.

Everyone knows that it is delaying higher potency combos faster(oooh nos my Chaos thrust is going to come later), and a retry slows that, but only you seem to believe it is some pinnacle of importance. But smell the roses, every class has that problem.

You're calling dense when... in the end it's a minor issue. 1st step failure starts from step1, not step 2 or step 3, step1.

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I've never argued that it wasn't minor. If you want to change the parameters of the discussion that's obviously fine but don't misrepresent what I'm saying here. Any discussion of DPS is going to boil down to inches, frankly.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

I'm with Kuku here. Missing once or twice, or even 3 times is *in my experience* not usually detrimental in something like a 10 min fight (to either job). If it's a constant problem then yes, it would be a huge dps loss and needs to be corrected. The only exception I can see is in strictly burst-damage situations where absolutely every GCD counts.

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Agreed. Only time I've really been annoyed on Heavy Thrust is when I'm trying to throw one out before RoT spam in a situation like the first spider-thingies spawn in T4, and even then it's generally only if I'm 1) slow to get into the fray and 2) the tank is having trouble getting position right for his overpowers and so is causing them to constantly change direction repeatedly. And, even then, it usually works out fine to just do a few RoTs until things settle down more, then throw out a Heavy Thrust and resume the RoTs. Small DPS loss, but not enough to pose a problem.

On the other hand on monk, seems like every time I'm ready to get behind a mob for my rear rotation, it insists on facing me even if it's not attacking me.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

Melusine has a set rotations of when she's going to do Circle of Flame. It's not hard to adjust and still get Heavy Thrust in or even Impulse Drive.

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Yeah ok, tell that to the vast majority of players that aren't able to refresh HT when circle of flames is on, just because they are like 1 second late and are just screwed with the hitbox.

Didn't say it was hard, its just way harder than redoin a flank attack / dragon kick on a monk simply because well the hitbox in their case is WAY larger for the effect to be applied which is clearly not the case for us