I hate the idea of Echo Buff. It should be part of some easy server not whole game.

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

And yet that's still completely possible to do. Which means "never" doesn't apply. Like I said people are taking this to some extreme where original difficulty will "never" again be possible. Furthermore, ilevel wasn't of any concern in his post.

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It's actually never, since they are also nerfing the instances.

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Essentially this means that for coil, I can never have the opportunity to complete the content at the original maximum difficulty. This makes me sad. I'm not saying there will be no challenge, but the option to play the hardest version will not exist. You can rush through to the next end game content sure, but that's not what I'm after.

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You got a 2 weeks window to make that happen buddy

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Originally Posted by Galactimus

Never
And yet the buff can be turned OFF. Allowing you to complete it at its original difficulty forever.

You guys are taking this to some extreme that doesn't exist. Your first attempt is always at the original difficulty every time you enter the instance (non-coil). The difficulty didn't go anywhere. And for Coil you're just refusing to put the time in to finding a party that also doesn't want an echo buff. You just want to experience the originals difficulty? Well then you're in luck! Since you only have to form a non-echo party ONCE to achieve your goal. "Never" doesn't apply to either situation since it can be easily done.

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I hope you're right, but my understanding is that the coil t1-5 buff is not optional to turn off. Also there will be "alleviation" in the severity of damage from certain enemy attacks that will certainly NOT be optional to have stay at full power.

Listen, guys I do think that the buffs are a good thing for a great majority of players. However, understand when I reach coil t1-5 it'll be nerfed and for me that spoils the fun. The idea of ex-mode primals giving a buff after each wipe I think is great! I can practice and eventually complete each run without wiping at all (100% difficulty). If it's optional to run coil at 100% difficulty when I get there I'll be happy (but it won't be an option :P).

I promise this is my last post because I'm spamming the same things here, but in a final attempt to get my point across, imagine the devs went into limit break mode and released a major end game content patch every single month. Every month the previous content gets nerfed. Only a handful of the absolute most hardcore, elite, 8 hour a day players can clear each new piece of content before the next nerf. The players who like easy progress and easy loot will be quite happy, but those who like a challenge without rushing won't. I'm saying this nerf is too early for me and I feel rushed, and at this pace I'll never be comfortable chasing the latest endgame to beat the nerf. To remove this pressure it would be great to maintain an option to play old content at it's 100% initial max difficulty. Galactimus, I know you think this is the case but I really think it's not.

I also do understand this is extra work for developers to maintain different difficulty modes of each content, especially if there is little demand for or use of it. If there are not enough players like me I can accept that, and hopefully find a group who I can create my own challenges with like self imposed max ilvl or broken gear runs. However, if I don't express my views then there will be no way for developers to realise players like myself exist. I don't think what I'm asking for is stupid in any way, just hard for most people to understand because they are either comfortable clearing endgame before the nerf, or are not thrilled particularly by extreme challenges and are always content clearing all content at reasonable difficulty for the loots / story / experience. I play my favorite single player games through on the hardest modes and beat them 100%, but I'll dabble and explore and it sometimes takes me years and years to complete each game.

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

What is wrong with letting everyone enjoy what the game has to offer? How does it affect you that players who couldn't beat content before, or didn't want to stress themselves out over the difficulty and want to remain light, that they can now beat and enjoy it's loot contents?

You have a new and difficult 4 levels to beat that they most likely won't and more extreme primals. I think the only difference is that you care so much to create a wide gap. Whereas, I don't think many casual players care that you beat the content before them, at all. I like to air on the side of playing to win, but if someone else cannot stand that playstyle, that doesn't make them any different from me other than that one little difference. We all have a fundamental goal in mind and that is to have fun!

There are really awesome plot points and twists from beating turn 5 that I will not give away and I'd like everyone to enjoy that.

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This says it all.

Even with this buff, I still see fights like Titan EX and Twintania remaining as the Beefgates they are today. 25%/30% extra stats won't stop you from getting knocked off Titan's platform or dying to one of Twintania's several instant kill mechanics. All this will really do is make it so groups that are struggling numbers wise i.e. terrible dps, to progress. What this means in the longterm, by allowing players who are unskilled to progress into harder content, is unclear. But I imagine it will just make Duty Finder for difficult content even more painful than it is today.

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Originally Posted by Kirosuu

- The Binding Coil of Bahamut
The weekly entrance restriction on entering all five turns of the Binding Coil of Bahamut has been abolished.
Players may now proceed directly to any turn of the Binding Coil of Bahamut.
Players may now enter the Binding Coil of Bahamut via the Duty Finder with a full party.


binding coil in df need full premade party anyway

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Ah, missed that last part in the notes it seems. Kinda odd then that they'd nerf High Voltage. I assumed the nerf was because DF could possibly throw together a party with no way to silence them, thus warranting a change to the mechanic to make it survivable. If it still REQUIRES a pre-made, the nerf was uncalled for.

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Originally Posted by Velox

Ah, missed that last part in the notes it seems. Kinda odd then that they'd nerf High Voltage. I assumed the nerf was because DF could possibly throw together a party with no way to silence them, thus warranting a change to the mechanic to make it survivable. If it still REQUIRES a pre-made, the nerf was uncalled for.

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That person failed to mention the fact that 2 weeks after 2.2 releases, they're allowing you to queue for 1-5 solo.

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Originally Posted by Velox

Ah, missed that last part in the notes it seems. Kinda odd then that they'd nerf High Voltage. I assumed the nerf was because DF could possibly throw together a party with no way to silence them, thus warranting a change to the mechanic to make it survivable. If it still REQUIRES a pre-made, the nerf was uncalled for.

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Only requires premade for first 2 weeks. 1st level of echo buff also opens up solo DF queues for it.

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Originally Posted by Velox

Ah, well I'm glad the nerf is justifiable then. The Knights on turn 4 are still going to suck if you end up with 4 black mages xD

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1st tier of echo is also reducing reflected damage on the knights. It'll still be there but not as deadly.

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Originally Posted by rhemi1

That person failed to mention the fact that 2 weeks after 2.2 releases, they're allowing you to queue for 1-5 solo.

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Originally Posted by Djeserit

Only requires premade for first 2 weeks. 1st level of echo buff also opens up solo DF queues for it.

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Ah, well I'm glad the nerf is justifiable then. The Knights on turn 4 are still going to suck if you end up with 4 black mages xD

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Originally Posted by Alwryn

All the echo buff does is make it a bit faster, less prone to RNG, [...]

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Hah, good one!

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Originally Posted by Sadana

The key is to not wipe if you don't want the echo buff. :3 (I didn't know you could turn it off at all.) I'm expecting PF groups to start saying "NO WIPES" in the description. XD

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are you serious? it will be more like "5 x Wipe strategy"... hardcore boss? no problem.. lets wipe 5 times in a row..

to win in easy mode..

this system is a whole joke. it dumbs down all bosses. there will be no glorious feel when winning an EX mode anymore..


they want to INCREASE the echo buff effect every week...

I'm ok with the concept of the Echo buff but I think the values need to be re-evaluated. Optional or not, max 25%~50% to HP, damage, and healing is a huge boost. It's not making content easier, it's practically handing out clears.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

I'm ok with the concept of the Echo buff but I think the values need to be re-evaluated. Optional or not, max 25%~50% to HP, damage, and healing is a huge boost. It's not making content easier, it's practically handing out clears.

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and they want to INCREASE these boosts every couple of weeks....

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

and they want to INCREASE these boosts every couple of weeks....

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Every 2 Weeks 10%, to a max of 30%... for HP that means for an average DRG with food 6k+ HP.. Guess what, he will still die to most Mechanics lol.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

are you serious? it will be more like "5 x Wipe strategy"... hardcore boss? no problem.. lets wipe 5 times in a row..

to win in easy mode..

this system is a whole joke. it dumbs down all bosses. there will be no glorious feel when winning an EX mode anymore..

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Lead me to the part where it says that the Echo Buff will make you invincible, will auto-control your character, make you dodge on auto-pilot and where a full echo-buffs makes landslide/full stack plumes survivable. Let aside all other insta-kill Mechanics here for a second... since it is just that; killing you regardless of Echo. :rolleyes:

The System is not really a joke, how people overestimate the echo-buff and misinterpret it as "auto win buff" is an utter joke.

Edit:

Hm.. daily Post Limit?

@ Tonkra

Well since i have reached my daily limit and we obviously talk about 2 different things, i will wait until tomorrow since these threads go way to fast to edit every single comment in. But to squeeze the Number in out of Q&A:

Extreme Modes:

　・The parties HP, damage dealt, and cure potency is increased by 5% per stage and there’s a total of 5 stages (maximum of 25%).

Coil:

-2 weeks after the patch 2.2 release
　　　・The effect will automatically be activated upon entry of the instance.
　　　・Your HP, damage dealt, and cure potency will be increased by 10%.

　　- 4 weeks after the patch 2.2 release
　　　・The effect will automatically be activated upon entry of the instance.
　　　・Your HP, damage dealt, and cure potency will be increased by 15%.

　　- 6 weeks after the patch 2.2 release
　　　・The effect will automatically be activated upon entry of the instance.
　　　・Your HP, damage dealt, and cure potency will be increased by 20%.

　　- 8 weeks after the patch 2.2 release
　　　・The effect will automatically be activated upon entry of the instance.
　　　・Your HP, damage dealt, and cure potency will be increased by 30%.

- Beyond 8 weeks
　　　・While we’ll monitor the situation at that time, we believe 30% should be okay as the maximum amount.

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Originally Posted by Nero

Lead me to the part where it says that the Echo Buff will make you invincible, will auto-control your character, make you dodge on auto-pilot and where a full echo-buffs makes landslide/full stack plumes survivable. Let aside all other insta-kill Mechanics here for a second... since it is just that; killing you regardless of Echo. :rolleyes:

The System is not really a joke, how people overestimate the echo-buff and misinterpret it as "auto win buff" is an utter joke.

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25% increased max HP on EX, you're looking at ~6k hp healers/DPS and ~10k hp tanks. Echo buff is pretty much a permanent Divine Seal buff. With those levels of hp/healing, you can easily eat a single Weight and just heal through it. Mountain Buster and Tumult will be equally laughable. Heart phase/DPS check? What DPS check? You'd have to be beyond terrible to fail that when everyone has a 25% buff to damage.

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Originally Posted by Nero

Every 2 Weeks 10%, to a max of 30%... for HP that means for an average DRG with food 6k+ HP.. Guess what, he will still die to most Mechanics lol.



Lead me to the part where it says that the Echo Buff will make you invincible, will auto-control your character, make you dodge on auto-pilot and where a full echo-buffs makes landslide/full stack plumes survivable. Let aside all other insta-kill Mechanics here for a second... since it is just that; killing you regardless of Echo. :rolleyes:

The System is not really a joke, how people overestimate the echo-buff and misinterpret it as "auto win buff" is an utter joke.

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ah come on..


so when you die in your ilevel 70 armor and you gain a 50% buff it is going to feel like ilevel 100 or something like it... what if you die 5x times in your ilevel 90 or ilevel 80?... good gameplay and equipment becomes irelevant. the difference between ilevel 70 and ilevel 90 is by far not 50% HP/Damage/healing !.

50% is much a difference..


it isnt like that, that you only have more HP... EVERY party member does 50% more damage, which means the battle itself will last about just half the time of the original battle time. maybe you will be able to skip phases. lets see but 50% seems much far too high..


a boost of maximum 15%+ would be ok.. but 50%? ;XD


White tanooki suit for Final Fantasy 14 ,XD its a joke.. for what am i playing a game? to beat difficult bosses? or using cheats after the first death and getting automatically stronger and stronger?


i was always fine with it if i wasnt able to beat a specific hardcore boss as a casual player. seriously. not everyone must beat every content in this game.

50% is on hard modes only 25% max is on extremes. and 10% will be coil (but it will go up weekly)

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Originally Posted by Nero

Every 2 Weeks 10%, to a max of 30%...

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

50%????? omg 50% i cant believe this

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So are you illiterate orrrrr?

For some players the Echo Buff really would be/will be game breaking. I guess if you're the the sort of player who dies to predictable mechanics and isn't able to learn boss regimens, then it may not seem so serious, but as someone who doesn't even have to think while clearing coil and the ex primals, the echo buff would make me god-like to the degree of rendering it pointless for me to play.

This isn't to say I think I'm super elite. It only means that I have ease in clearing all content as is. With a buff, i can't imagine the ease. So maybe this boost is for a certain kind of player, in which case I don't mind its existence. But to me it seems a little like SE is saying, "Well if you haven't done it by now, you're clearly too slow to actually do it".

I know some people say you don't have to use it but, players always take the path of least resistance in general. So, that's not saying much.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

am ii tooo stupid??? yes i think so.

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was i talking about coil? (besides it is going to be increased weekly)
i actually tried to discuss it constructive..

... and by the way, when you quote. quote correctly...this is just rude (


but well i quote you in the same manner :P

honestly people who can 1 shot these bosses will never use it, the time it would take to build this up would be longer then the time to just 1 shot the bosses, really the buffs are to help encourage players to stay like if i queue for titan hm and we wiped at heart because we were alittle to slow bam there is 10% enough to push us past and give us alittle boost.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

honestly people who can 1 shot these bosses will never use it, the time it would take to build this up would be longer then the time to just 1 shot the bosses, really the buffs are to help encourage players to stay like if i queue for titan hm and we wiped at heart because we were alittle to slow bam there is 10% enough to push us past and give us alittle boost.

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This guy gets it. A majority of people won't intentionally max out the buff, they'll just use it when needed as per this example.

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Originally Posted by Djeserit

This guy gets it. A majority of people won't intentionally max out the buff, they'll just use it when needed as per this example.

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the thing is, that you do not "use" it actually.. it comes along automatically... but well

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

honestly people who can 1 shot these bosses will never use it, the time it would take to build this up would be longer then the time to just 1 shot the bosses, really the buffs are to help encourage players to stay like if i queue for titan hm and we wiped at heart because we were alittle to slow bam there is 10% enough to push us past and give us alittle boost.

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and for others 2 times and for others its the 3rd time.

but really isnt that a point where a good team play and equipment is becoming irrelevant?
in the past we needed 15 times to beat a boss encounter and now we need maximum 5? or so to say? ;XD

well lets see how it will work out...

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

the thing is, that you do not "use" it actually.. it comes along automatically... but well



and for others 2 times and for others its the 3rd time.

but really isnt that a point where a good team play and equipment is becoming irrelevant?

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you would be right if we got a op echo buff on all content but, leviathan and mog ex will not have this boost, coil 6-9 will not have this boost and township will not have this boost.

so there is still content that requires you to try.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

was i talking about coil?

by the way, when you quote. quote correctly... this isnt a quote actually in your posting..

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Sorry, I didn't realize I needed to quote your whole post wherein you repeat "OMG 50% SO BAD WTF SE" 10 times. I thought a summary would've sufficed.

The purpose of the Echo buff is to allow players who previously couldn't tackle the content (aka uber casuals) to progress through it. Those people deserve to get through the content - they pay the same money you do every month to play this game, if they choose not to be stopped by lack of skill to progress then they shouldn't be stopped. Something to consider, however, is that no matter how much of a buff they get, a Landslide will still knock them to 0 HP for the rest of the fight. The only difference is that they can make more mistakes and require less gear. They also need to make it 3 minutes into the fight to actually GAIN the Echo buff - so that, in and of itself, is a skill/gear barrier.

Its funny how this thread is still going sad really that others fill like something they may or may not effect how they play the game, is going to effect how other play and enjoy the game. All I have to say is if you leave can I have your stuff.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

The purpose of the Echo buff is to allow players who previously couldn't tackle the content (aka uber casuals) to progress through it. Those people deserve to get through the content - they pay the same money you do every month to play this game, if they choose not to be stopped by lack of skill to progress then they shouldn't be stopped.

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Truer words were never spoken.

It's only on "old" content... I don't see the big problem.

The way people are talking about this echo buff, it sounds like you think it will apply to all content in the game.... When 2.2 comes out, everyone will quickly farm up full ilvl90 and try to beat T5. Most people will still not be able to beat T5 until at least 2 weeks, when the echo buff is added to Coil. Even then many won't make it.

When the majority of players finally beat T5 because of echo buff, the people that really want that extra challenge will already be well into doing the new 2.2 content, which will not have any echo.

As I see it, everyone gets what they want....

More hardcore players will quickly move on to 2.2 content, and because of how they are implementing the echo buff, they will get a "head-start" over the others.

The "medium-core" players (lol), will be able to quickly fill their gaps to ilvl90 (if they need it), and then get to try T5 for real, before the echo buff is there. Even if they don't make it, they get to try it out.... Then they can finally beat it with the echo buff.

The casual players, who don't want to have that level of difficulty, will get what they want, they will have a much easier time beating the content, which they will probably appreciate.... Also, the players that have progressed further, shouldn't even bother with the fact that everyone is beating that old content so easy now, because they are busy tackling Coil 2.0 or something, which they know these players won't get to do for some time.

heres a thought get into your ilvl70 gear or whatever u want and
STEP 1:
a) do a PF group with the requirement of no echo used
b) find a group of likeminded ppl and do a static no echo grp

STEP 2:
get into coil or hm/ex remove the echo buff if/when needed

STEP 3:
Enjoy the challenge

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

The purpose of the Echo buff is to allow players who previously couldn't tackle the content (aka uber casuals) to progress through it. Those people deserve to get through the content - they pay the same money you do every month to play this game, if they choose not to be stopped by lack of skill to progress then they shouldn't be stopped. Something to consider, however, is that no matter how much of a buff they get, a Landslide will still knock them to 0 HP for the rest of the fight. The only difference is that they can make more mistakes and require less gear. They also need to make it 3 minutes into the fight to actually GAIN the Echo buff - so that, in and of itself, is a skill/gear barrier.

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you talk to a "casual" player (i just started right now with Garuda EX, although i play since 1.0. beta)


i dont come from WoW or something like that... i never was a hardcore MMORPG player who had every item that has a drop rate of 1% or something like it (i remember FFXI times^) nor did i beat every hardcore boss in every game. although i payed for it! what kind of argument is that? its a game.
and there are different difficulties for every bosses.

Although i did pay for several MMorpgs in the past (e.g. Final Fantasy XI,DAoC, Lineage II etc.) My mentality was never like "oh i pay for this game every month, so i should be able to defeat that huge 6 head dragon who only 10% of the players defeated yet"..


i personally do not understand this mentality. im ok with it, that every player deserves to come through the story and beat the normale modes. but MUST every player INCLUDING ME be able to defeat the hardest, most extreme boss in the game? regardless of equipment or player "skill"...?

im ok with it if i am not being able to defeat Bahamut one day... and if only 10% of the player base is able to defeat him. and when i am able to defeat him after 20 tries the "wow effect" is even bigger.


but well its maybe just me... modern fastfood mmorpgs. im okay with the idea to push casual players, here you have a fatigue boost, here you have 15% damage boost. but oosh...



and hey... even in Final Fantasy 7 HD port they implemented an instant boost button ;XD


i am okay with it having rare items (5%-10%), rare bosses, hardcore bosses in a game... although i most likely wont have them... but hey there is something special for everybody to aim for.

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If this buff can be applied to a character after 3 minutes of combat, whats to stop people from synchronizing their watches and saying "okay 3 minutes are up everyone wipe" and doing this 5 times?

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I'm not gonna read through these 11 pages, because I'm just on my lunch break from work and don't have much time. But they DID say that players "NEED to try their best" during the first 3 minutes, which suggests that if players just stand idle for 3 minutes and then wipe just so they can receive their buffs, not a damn thing will happen when the try a 2nd time... ...no buffs for them. At least, that's what I gathered.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

Snip!

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Liked!

I'm like you, I never cried because I wouldn't get that relic, D.Ring or k.club. And since only a small amount of people had those, those items remained special.

You know, you hear the term entitled and special snowflake often on this board. And well, it's always targeted towards the hardcore/endgame people.

I kind of think it's more entitlement when someone goes, "I most be able to do everything, kill everything and have everything in the game".

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Originally Posted by Amberion

Liked!

I'm like you, I never cried because I wouldn't get that relic, D.Ring or k.club. And since only a small amount of people had those, those items remained special.

You know, you hear the term entitled and special snowflake often on this board. And well, it's always targeted towards the hardcore/endgame people.

I kind of think it's more entitlement when someone goes, "I most be able to do everything, kill everything and have everything in the game".

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I see where you are going with this, but I disagree. What point is there for SE to make content that only a small subset of their players can enjoy?

Also, you got to look at the long term. Without things to help new players, they can never catch up. In addition, it'll leave a big gap between the "hardcore" crowd and "casual" crowd where it becomes hard to provide consistent content for both. If they followed the traditional style of building harder raids that only the top players can clear, people will eventually leave cause they aren't getting anywhere in the game.

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Originally Posted by DarkslayerG

I see where you are going with this, but I disagree. What point is there for SE to make content that only a small subset of their players can enjoy?

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Those players would have a point and a stance if this game required a large time investment. As it stands, you can clear Turns 1-5 in an hour and all EX Primals in the same time. What remains is players that simply lack the skill, and worse, lack the desire to improve, and want the game brought down to their level rather than improve themselves. These players will make excuses upon excuses, and threaten to quit if the difficulty is not brought down. Which, honestly, they should. If a game isn't meeting your needs, you should stop playing the game, not beg the developers to bring everything down for you.

Unfortunately, these players are numerous, and every one of them brings a sub fee. So, devs have a choice: Leave content difficulty alone and risk losing revenue, or cater to these players while keeping their revenue.

Sadly, what inevitably happens is these players rocket through the now-nerfed content only to hit the same exact walls with the current content, become frustrated, and leave again until the whole cycle repeats itself.

Disable echo buff or use Party Finder like you guys always did. In DF you can't force people to play in the same way as you, of course you could nicely ask them to disable it like you guys always do when you want that speed run or want people to skip all cutscenes but i rather just finish the run quick since people in DF you will never meet again or anytime soon.

Anyway just keep using PF like always and you will be fine, nothing here is forced if there's options.

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Sadly, what inevitably happens is these players rocket through the now-nerfed content only to hit the same exact walls with the current content, become frustrated, and leave again until the whole cycle repeats itself.

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This is so true, well also goes for the once that eat the new content for breakfast. And since new games ATM gives away gear more quickly, none have anything to do.

It's why newer games never see a stable server population any longer. You see a spike after patch/expansion, then a fast dive, then up after next and so on.

Quote:

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Also, you got to look at the long term. Without things to help new players, they can never catch up. In addition, it'll leave a big gap between the "hardcore" crowd and "casual" crowd where it becomes hard to provide consistent content for both. If they followed the traditional style of building harder raids that only the top players can clear, people will eventually leave cause they aren't getting anywhere in the game.

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I guess I can see your point since this is such a vertically progression kind of game. Might not agree fully with it, but can see it. :)

I still think at least they should have taken longer to nerf it so hard. Sort of like nerfing it so it was at a range between casual and hardcore, something for those people in the middle. And after each patch, they move up a slot. That way you would also have more "current" content being played since you have 3 tiers of players.

As others have stated the purpose of the Echo buff is to help bring newer or less progress players up to speed with current content. The content that is having Echo applied is being made irrelevant in 2.2 save to gate access to 2.2 coil and EX trials. It's not like this isn't something that has been a known fact for some time now.

If it didn't take an untoward amount of development resources I would suggest they create a series of normalized versions of the instances that synchronize effective item level to the recommended minimum, require to queued as a full party, don't have Echo, and force the 2-2-4 comp. Add in a series of associated achievements with a title and vanity reward. There, an incentive for those who already did it and a challenge for those who haven't done it before the Echo.

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Originally Posted by rhemi1

Sadly, what inevitably happens is these players rocket through the now-nerfed content only to hit the same exact walls with the current content, become frustrated, and leave again until the whole cycle repeats itself.

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leave again? why because they only play for end game raids? no the reason there is the echo buff is to help them keep up with everyone so that instead of paying to play only 10% of the content they pay to play 90% of the content why would anyone play a game where they can only access a very small amount of content?

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

leave again? why because they only play for end game raids? no the reason there is the echo buff is to help them keep up with everyone so that instead of paying to play only 10% of the content they pay to play 90% of the content why would anyone play a game where they can only access a very small amount of content?

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Clearly out of good will to subsidize the fraction of the playerbase who are at the top of progression.

Why would an elitist even care? They are capped on primal weapons. Their main jobs have been i90 for months.

The only items they might still want drop from Twin and his drops will no longer be BiS.

Bring on the Echo those same people that need it will still be struggling with The new content.