New dungeons confirmed i55?

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

now i will also the reason why experience is not skill is because as you said the more you experience it the more you anticipate things and get timing better but in the end is that not skill? there are players that do titan alot and never get better at timing or anticipating what is going to happen would you say they are just not experiencing the content when they are? when in fact they just aren't getting better or more skill?

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It's skill gained through experience which is how most players learn in real life and in games. Yes some players learn at a slower rate and some aren't capable of learning because learning itself is a skill.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

so wouldn't that mean we would have to give players a chance to experience the content to get better?

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We should in the right environment. Mixing players that are experience vs newer players in the hardest content is not going to end up pleasant most of the time. There's Duty Finder (which still is bad), FC/lS, and practice party finder groups for that. Having the proper gear and the proper learning environment will help more new players more than anything rather than sticking them into content they don't belong to learn with players that are at a higher skill level/more geared than them.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

So...how can you tell the difference between the two by looking at them?

Answer: You can't.

A person who legitimately cleared content, on that class, will be an above-average player (at worst) even with worse gear. This means using their class properly, not overgearing to power through it or getting carried and not dying...


You pretty much proved my point of "gear really doesn't matter", especially since you're one of the people helping to make the problem worse.

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I'm not making it worse, either we do it or someone else does. I recall when FCs at my server started selling HM, I was strongly against it for the same reasons you are holding. Turned out I was a fool and missed out on hundred of millions market. Never again, we already practiced killing Twin with 7 players in anticipation of patch 2.2. After all if it is not me it will be someone else.

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Originally Posted by Yurimi

You probably shouldnt change someones words and the entire meaning of the post they make if you are quoting them if the actual quote doesnt make your post fit simply copy and delete (cut) the quote and edit your post and post it after do not completely alter a quote the way you wish to see it =P

my post was simply stating my arguement behind the difference of gear vs skilll and the set minimum requirements of the dungeon I am neither for or against it as I will either do it with friends or not do it at all.

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I cut the quote simply for the character limit requirement thing. Maybe it wasnt your intention or just playing devils advocate but saying "well, only about 25% of low ilvl players will actually be good enough" sounds a lot like justification for kicking a player for ilvl alone. Even if its true that only 25% will be good enough, thats still 25% of players being picked on and mistreated before even testing the waters. Not to mention how everyone deserves the right at least try and learn. /shrug

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Originally Posted by NeoAmon

I'm not making it worse, either we do it or someone else does. I recall when FCs at my server started selling HM, I was strongly against it for the same reasons you are holding. Turned out I was a fool and missed out on hundred of millions market. Never again, we already practiced killing Twin with 7 players in anticipation of patch 2.2. After all if it is not me it will be someone else.

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Then why are you complaining about unskilled people?

If you're going to make the problem worse, you have no right to complain about it. And yes...everyone that sells carries is only making the problem worse.

You're greedy. Nothing else about it.

all this talk of skill.....*disappointed*

Its so much simpler than that. This is a game focused on on 2 things. Clearing content, and gaining ilvl. Think of ilvl as getting something you need from part A, in order to be able to complete part B. Why not have to NEED a certain amount of gear to complete a dungeon? As I said a few times: progression... to make gear actually required, and not just something that makes content go faster/less forgiving.

My last mmo was tera. Its last major patch provided endgame gear far surpassing previously available gear, gained from content that was hugely easier than the current hardest content at the time of that patch. As you might have guessed, people who enjoyed the pve aspect of tera soon quit. You guys wanna see that happen to ff? I hope coil t6+ has massive gear checks..

This post is in response to the heros who think all content is clearable at minimum ilvl, which I disagree with until I see full titanEX in ilvl 67 video =D

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Originally Posted by PArcher

Then why are you complaining about unskilled people?

If you're going to make the problem worse, you have no right to complain about it. And yes...everyone that sells carries is only making the problem worse.

You're greedy. Nothing else about it.

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Wrong I did not complain nor do I have an issue with wiping a million time in AK with ilvl40 new players. I was talking to the person who says Ilvl has nothing to do with skills. It does as Twin still stand strong after many video guides on YouTube and many other written guides she is still unbeaten for many groups.

As for greed, tell that to the crafters whom are going to charge millions of gill on top of the base materials price for the new crafted gear. They did it at the start of the game and they will do it again, so my greed is nothing compared what you are going to see from those master crafters.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

that is where you are wrong, i will never be good at kung fu (using you example) no matter how long i try i will never have the skill or ability to do it i just won't, experence shows you what you need to do while skill pulls it off. meaning experience is not skill because unlimited experience will never give you the skill.
practice makes perfect its called honing your skills for a reason not honing you experience.

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Hah, well I guess there's no point in debating if you think there are things you can't do. You're only limited by yourself I suppose, to me people can do anything they set their mind to. I've proven this to myself countless times by learning new skills that I did not have any inherited ability to do, amazing what a little practice and dedication can do. I guess if you want to say you can't do something then that's your problem really. Enjoy playing with all the "skilled" fresh 50s who have no experience, I'll just wait until I can join content with friends again.

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Originally Posted by PlanckZero

These dungeons are likely on the same level as the current hard mode dungeons and PS, hell they're likely even easier since so many people whined about PS that they're nerfing it down.

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And this is what pisses me off. They need to stop nerfing things and raise the iLVL.

Stop letting people bring a knife to a gun fight.

Welp, time to go back to ye ol methods and speed run em new dungeons for delicious tomes
:')

They need to get rid of ilvl requirements from everything. It's sad going into i80+ advertised groups and watching these scrubs perform worse than fresh 50's. Raising the ilvl requirement does jack shit and if any of you players spend as much time out of your static coil/farm groups and more time into df/pf groups, you'd see it. What you're asking for is gear carried which is nonsense.

Maybe if getting i90 didn't just require you watch turtles have sex and pressing 3 buttons in a dungeon, THEN they could add ilvl requirements. As of right now, there is no way to tell the difference between a skilled player and a scrub just by ilvls. I read somewhere that twintania kills have indeed been sold also so if this is indeed true then twin weapons still mean jack shit on their main characters. There was also a forum thread a bit ago about people POS hacking twin kills. I'm too lazy to look for the link for you guys xD.

Also to the person asking for videos about doing Titan Ex at i67. Now this is all theorycrafting and personal experience. I don't have any classes that are full darklight anymore nor do I have any video capturing software to show you any tests.

Have you ever parsed fights and seen the dps numbers? Titan Ex is over kill with all 4 dps doing 220+. I've cleared it with 2/4 people doing around 150 and the other 2 doing 200-230. If you know how to play you're class, 170 dps is easily obtainable in full darklight + nq relic weapon. I'd even go as far as saying you can hit 200ish. That ilvl is about i70-i72 maybe which isn't too far from i67 so bring at the minimum requirement would give you plenty of dps if you are doing your part. Now with that said, if you can find 7 people with the same skillset, are you not able to complete a Titan Ex at minimum requirement? Are you saying that you, yourself, aren't able to do Titan Ex at i67? That you need more gear, personally, to complete it? Because if you are able to, then there are others who are able to as well.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

This post is in response to the heros who think all content is clearable at minimum ilvl, which I disagree with until I see full titanEX in ilvl 67 video =D

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I don't think there is an instance in this game that can't be cleared by a group of quality players at the minimum iLvL. This is the reason skill comes into the conversation.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

all this talk of skill.....*disappointed*

Its so much simpler than that. This is a game focused on on 2 things. Clearing content, and gaining ilvl. Think of ilvl as getting something you need from part A, in order to be able to complete part B. Why not have to NEED a certain amount of gear to complete a dungeon? As I said a few times: progression... to make gear actually required, and not just something that makes content go faster/less forgiving.

My last mmo was tera. Its last major patch provided endgame gear far surpassing previously available gear, gained from content that was hugely easier than the current hardest content at the time of that patch. As you might have guessed, people who enjoyed the pve aspect of tera soon quit. You guys wanna see that happen to ff? I hope coil t6+ has massive gear checks..

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So all content should only need to be cleared once? Am I missing something? The minimum iLvL requirement is explicitly saying "have to NEED a certain amount of gear to complete." (for the sake of argument let's assume these numbers are 100% accurate, I suspect they aren't, but that's beside the point)

For example, if I can't beat Titan EX at i67, then I need to get better, or get gear from "part A" (let's say myth tomes from dungeons) so I can have a better opportunity at "part B' (in this example Titan EX).

Yes, the dungeons they are adding are i55 minimum required. This is higher than any other dungeon we currently have. This is still forward progression.

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Originally Posted by illuminapanic

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Best way to fix this is to sync content to a specific gear range. This would force everyone to do their part and contribute.

maybe u would like the instances difficulty to scale with grip ilvl ?

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Originally Posted by TwoEggs

maybe u would like the instances difficulty to scale with grip ilvl ?

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That would be nice too. Just Dungeons though (4-mans specifically)

After seeing Pharos Sirius's required ilvl to enter (48 or 49), I don't trust the ilvl requirements to be accurate indicators of the dungeon's difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Zaels

After seeing Pharos Sirius's required ilvl to enter (48 or 49), I don't trust the ilvl requirements to be accurate indicators of the dungeon's difficulty.

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Pharos is actually easier if everyone isn't super over-geared, especially DPS. I think they designed it to counter the speed-run mindset.

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Originally Posted by L-D-Omlette

Pharos is actually easier if everyone isn't super over-geared, especially DPS. I think they designed it to counter the speed-run mindset.

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No it's not. You're kidding, right?

First boss: prioritize adds. easy. overleveled parties can really ONLY fail here if they ignore adds. and this is made up for in the second boss, where ignoring adds benefits an overgeared party.
Second boss: ignore eggs, let them all hatch, tank picks up every add, burn boss. easy.
Third boss: lol
Siren: definitely easier with an over-geared party. an undergeared healer will have a significantly harder time. over-geared black mages can one-shot adds with firestarter procs.

All trash mobs: dies faster with an overgeared party. slimes don't even stay alive long enough to multiply.

can someone in ilevel65 gear even survive garuda's aoe

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Originally Posted by Zaels

No it's not. You're kidding, right?

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1st boss: adds spawn at certain boss hp markers. Slower DPS means slower add spawn. Easier to deal with.
2nd boss: need to kill one egg at a time, can kill two when three are gonna hatch. Enrage gets ignored completely, and only ever have to deal with a single add.
3rd boss: still lol, just have more adds over time to deal with.
4th boss: under-geared healer only has a harder time if rest of the party is not playing their roles for the fight. Silence Lunatic voice and prioritize crawler adds. Tanks can pick up other adds.

Trash: of course they die faster, but they aren't difficult when under geared. Again, party members should be doing their job and know mechanics. Silence and Stun are in the game for a reason.

This dungeon is the perfect example of learning mechanics instead of trying to ignore them. Should have to complete this before doing any other 50 dungeon IMO.

Every boss in PS works based on health %. The likelyhood of an overgeared party pushing a phase over an undergeared one is way higher. Since stacks are on a timer for the first boss you can end up with someone easily reaching 3 stacks even if you only touched the boss once the adds died - this especially gets hectic at the final phase. Burning Zu is fine but you're still going to have to deal with the fly phases and the tank keeping AOE aggro on all the adds - this can get hectic but is perfectly doable. Siren is the easiest boss in the dungeon, no question - undergeared or overgeared it's simply down to killing the crawlers and stunning Lunatic Voice. Siren also does everything at health % - the only problem with this is that you could potentially push one of her jumps over an add phase.

Also, slimes don't split if you stun Divide. Dunno about Silence, but I assume that works too.

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Originally Posted by L-D-Omlette

1st boss: adds spawn at certain boss hp markers. Slower DPS means slower add spawn. Easier to deal with.
2nd boss: need to kill one egg at a time, can kill two when three are gonna hatch. Enrage gets ignored completely, and only ever have to deal with a single add.
3rd boss: still lol, just have more adds over time to deal with.
4th boss: under-geared healer only has a harder time if rest of the party is not playing their roles for the fight. Silence Lunatic voice and prioritize crawler adds. Tanks can pick up other adds.

Trash: of course they die faster, but they aren't difficult when under geared. Again, party members should be doing their job and know mechanics. Silence and Stun are in the game for a reason.

This dungeon is the perfect example of learning mechanics instead of trying to ignore them. Should have to complete this before doing any other 50 dungeon IMO.

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This is 100% true.
This dungeon is about mechanics. Not difficulty. People just love forcing their face through content and then get all in a hissy fit when they can't do that.

So by "easier" you meant easier to complete while following the dungeon's intended mechanics then. Because generally higher level parties will still have an easier time with the dungeon. There's a reason why undergeared/inexperienced players often leave if they get PS in DR.

And no, the first boss is not easier to deal with as an undergeared party unless the DPS is stupid. First boss HP markers will not be an issue if both DPS immediately stop DPSing boss and kill the adds first. You act as if higher item level DPS have no control over the damage they put out. If you ignore mechanics on this boss (aka ignore adds, focus boss, dont dodge aoes), both undergeared and overgeared parties are likely going to wipe.

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Originally Posted by Zaels

So by "easier" you meant easier to complete while following the dungeon's intended mechanics then. Because generally higher level parties will still have an easier time with the dungeon. There's a reason why undergeared/inexperienced players often leave if they get PS in DR.

And no, the first boss is not easier to deal with as an undergeared party unless the DPS is stupid. First boss HP markers will not be an issue if both DPS immediately stop DPSing boss and kill the adds first. You act as if higher item level DPS have no control over the damage they put out.

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Fair enough, "easier" may have been poor word choice, but it really isn't any more difficult with people near the minimum iLvL. Not sure I buy itno the undergeared/inexperienced leaving any more than the opposite.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Also, slimes don't split if you stun Divide. Dunno about Silence, but I assume that works too.

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Silence was more in reference to the ele's and hard hitting spell (Banish III?)

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Originally Posted by Tiggy

People just love forcing their face through content and then get all in a hissy fit when they can't do that.

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Sums up all complaints about all content ever.

dogs will also die much faster and be less of an issue for a group with higher dps. this means you are far less likely to have the cause the real threat on the fight(explosions). same goes for all bosses in PS since they all have adds.

The problem with the ilvl being so low is the fact that now people in crappy gear can fully skip the content we all had to work on to develop our characters, and end up skipping the better part of the game. If SE wants any sort of longevity to their content, and want people to stick around, they need to stagger the ilvl requirements so that people can PROGRESS.If the ilvl req is indeed similar to that of PS and drops i90+ valued tomes/gear then SE is allowing people to basically skip half of the supposed ENDGAME 4 man dungeons.This is a joke imo. If they want to allow everyone to just gear up in three-four weeks by handing out free tomes, why not just give an allowance to each player and not require them to actually do any content.

Instead, it should be that people need to progress to at LEAST i80 to do the new four mans... this will create at least a semblance of a progression system. Im appalled that SE hasn't realized that by handing out free near-endgame gear they are effectively creating a game where people play for the 3-4 weeks required to get to endgame and then quit because there is nothing to progress on. As it is right now, this is already basically the case when they remove caps and such on gear. Its funny to me that they decided to put in a "buff" into the first 5 turns of coil to help people "progress" through the content. I think the whole thing is silly. People should be required to work to move up in ilvl - ie. if you are a new 50, you should be progressing the same way we all did, especially with things like the duty finder now in place giving "free" tomes.

Maybe its just me, but its getting a little bit ridiculous, and I feel like SE is shooting themselves in the foot with handing out basically free upgrades to everyone. I could understand if it was for an expansion and it came with an increase in level cap, but during regular patches... cmon.

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Originally Posted by Felis

Do you suggest that people should ignore every gear between ilevel 55-80 and go direct into coil 1-4 (coil 5 don't get the echo buff) with AF1?
What is if people don't want gear for the ilevel, but for vanity? What is if the gear in the new dungeons have only ilevel 75, but look amazing?
The Vanity system is coming with 2.2, the new dungeons are a good place to put in new vanity gears for people to farm for the vanity system.

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6 months after 1-5 was implemented? With an echo buff making it incredibly easy? With unlocked currency on i90 gear? Yeah, I do. I really do. Vanity gear is a really stupid excuse to make 3 entire dungeons completely worthless.

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dogs will also die much faster and be less of an issue for a group with higher dps. this means you are far less likely to have the cause the real threat on the fight(explosions). same goes for all bosses in PS since they all have adds.

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This is on the assumption that they know to focus the dogs when they pop. I recall having to repeat myself three times from wipes on one run in there.

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Originally Posted by Teuciont

6 months after 1-5 was implemented? With an echo buff making it incredibly easy? With unlocked currency on i90 gear? Yeah, I do. I really do. Vanity gear is a really stupid excuse to make 3 entire dungeons completely worthless.

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100% agree.... haha. Cutest reason to give everyone the same gear and remove all progression i've ever seen. I bet people who think this way will be here for a month maximum, make their character look cool/cute, get bored and then move to a different game. Sadly, I have a strong feeling that SE seems to agree with people who think this way, its pretty funny and ironic that they want people to stick around and continue to pay subscriptions but then create a situation where people leave after 1-2 months cause they hit a wall and there is nothing to do.

Glad to see that new content isn't being relegated to the "don't it all and now have nothing to do" crowd or those who do nothing but grind, grind, and grind some more. Will it mean that some may be able to get geared up without following the same exact path that everyone and their mother has already done? Hopefully so because the more options there are for players, the more players and play styles the game will draw in.

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Originally Posted by Cigaran

Glad to see that new content isn't being relegated to the "don't it all and now have nothing to do" crowd or those who do nothing but grind, grind, and grind some more. Will it mean that some may be able to get geared up without following the same exact path that everyone and their mother has already done? Hopefully so because the more options there are for players, the more players and play styles the game will draw in.

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Actually your whole point that this will prevent the "grind, grind, grind" that currently exists is the exact thing that will cause it to continue. This doesn't add any additional options for players, it just washes out the old content and makes it completely unnecessary to touch. They might as well throw away all of the other lvl 50 instances and just allow us to play the new ones. That's basically what is happening with this patch from the looks of it. The only way making this dungeon require such a low ilvl will make sense is if the content is extremely difficult (on the level of T5) or it will become zerged in the first week by us all in i90 and then you will be stuck in this same circle we are currently facing in the game.

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Originally Posted by Kayo

I cut the quote simply for the character limit requirement thing. Maybe it wasnt your intention or just playing devils advocate but saying "well, only about 25% of low ilvl players will actually be good enough" sounds a lot like justification for kicking a player for ilvl alone. Even if its true that only 25% will be good enough, thats still 25% of players being picked on and mistreated before even testing the waters. Not to mention how everyone deserves the right at least try and learn. /shrug

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I dont remember once in my post stating that said person should be kicked I merely stated the likely hood of a person skilled enough at their job while barely making the iLv requirement is slim. I don't kick people who want to try and learn nor am I against helping new people get stuff done, however like I said for the first while my tank and healer will be strictly friend only for this because I can already see the issues that will pop up of its anything like Pharos. When I run a dungeon I don't just pop in look at people and if I don't like it vote kick or drop the party I give every party a chance. If the persons who barely meet the requirements (or anyone in general is having issues) I ask them if there is something I can do to help them. If they can't or won't improve to make it manageable to get through THEN I consider my options. A good example is hauke manor regular (lv. 28 dungeon) when your tank is using the doll festival earrings dps accessories and gear that is barely up to par for sastasha and their best itemized thing they have on is the lv. 1 starter ring that has vit on it to the point you the whm have more than 20% hp than them after you die to the first boss a few times because the tank dies faster than you can spam cure 2 which is healing for their entire hp bar would you continue to keep trying ? That would be a waste of your time and theirs. And as much as I hate to be the bad person here if they are carebeared through it and not told what's wrong they are going to think its fine and maybe not even think they need to improve.

It's gonna suck if these dungeons are actually doable by an average group with i55 gear. If that's the case, then the dungeons probably won't challenge anyone in better gear. I really like dungeons like Pharos Sirius, but the stuff just doesn't really hit hard enough. The leveling dungeons all really hit hard and have a lot of HP when you first enter them, but there's not really any sense of that at 50 outside of Coil.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

It's gonna suck if these dungeons are actually doable by an average group with i55 gear. If that's the case, then the dungeons probably won't challenge anyone in better gear. I really like dungeons like Pharos Sirius, but the stuff just doesn't really hit hard enough.

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Are any of the current iLvL requirements accurate for an AVERAGE group? What leads you to believe that this will be true for the three new dungeons?

Well, I guess I should have said they shouldn't be doable by ANY group in i55 gear. Ignoring the mechanics and going just by the numbers, the monsters should hit too hard for an i55 tank to survive and an i55 healer to heal through. The DPS checks should be too high for i55 DPS. The actual requirements should be higher. There's plenty of crafted and tomestone gear available for people to close the gap. When I said average I misspoke; I meant without using gimmicks. Like you could probably keep an i55 tank alive through Twintania with the right party setup.

Good conversation on both sides I read all. I highly doubt we will be able to just farm this for the best equipment.

Why stop at min iLvl? Maybe start a min and max iLvl and go horizontal

Technically in PS the other classes ilvl don't really matter as much as the whole dungeon was kinda designed for the healer in the group. It's all about the healer carrying the group ;0 .
We need a new dungeon that will make the dps the focus of the mechanics.
Cuz tanks and healers already had their fair share of make it or break it content that relied vastly on their skill and knowledge of the job.
Minimum ilvl is just "minimally" acceptable, hence the minimum.

so its worthless even before its released? /sigh SE!

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Originally Posted by Valmar

I'm all for the new dungeon content to be accessible to a larger scope of players but when someone que's up for the dungeon barely meeting the minimum ilvl requirement hoping to be carried, it really hurts the group as a whole.

I think the ilvl should be atleast 75. like others have said.

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If it was, then my BCB clearing i74 Paladin, Scholar and Monk would all be incapable of queuing for it. ~_~

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Originally Posted by Sylve

If it was, then my BCB clearing i74 Paladin, Scholar and Monk would all be incapable of queuing for it. ~_~

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You clear t5 with an i74 PLD? O_O

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

You clear t5 with an i74 PLD? O_O

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Not T5 no. But i am clearing turns with it, and my Monk.

Even still, do you think the very first Twintania kill was done with an ilevel much higher, given that we only had i70 / i90 at the time?

The point is, for a 4man dungeon, even a hard one, You shouldn't need a quality of gear that is acceptable in BCB.

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Originally Posted by Garra

The problem with the ilvl being so low is the fact that now people in crappy gear can fully skip the content we all had to work on to develop our characters, and end up skipping the better part of the game.

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Really? A fresh level 50 is not gonna be ilevel 55 no matter how you twist and turn it, unless he/she buys better crafted gear or is given better gear, and if that's the case, he/she can reach i70 without ever entering one of those dungeons...
Now if we take a fresh 50 that doesn't have gil as an example. He/She/It will have to do CM, Prae, WP, AK, HM HM, CBM HM, PS and/or CT in order to reach i55 and be able to enter these new dungeons.
If the player isn't a complete moron, he/she/it will quickly realize that it's better to gear up even more for the harder dungeons.

As for the argument that "we had to go the hard way so they should have to go the hard way too"... I suggest you start walking everywhere you go, start farming or hunting for everything you eat, make your own clothes, etc. because that's what our ancestors had to do. They had to go the hard way so we should too, right?