Confirmation of Uncapped Raids. Confirmation of a terrible decision.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EgweneALvere

How about we just ask for a Voluntary Cap feature? That way you can choose how you want to go thru the dungeon.

---

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...-other-content

Yes, I am for it as long as there is an incentive to do it under cap. Be it HQ version of gears, novelty items, achievement (though this one is weak and offers no replay value).

Yeah, they should've only released high-ranked Dungeons so everyone who plays today would be happy.
What about the beginners? They have to wait for reaching a high rank before doing those dungeons?

You've reached R50 on every class? Rise another character. It's your own responsibility to have reached the cap with every class afterall =)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Perrin_Aybarra

While still valuable for the drops (i'd assume) the challenge will be non-existant for the majority because people, given the opportunity, will go the easy way and just bring high level friends to clear the dungeon for them.

---

Indeed. I would support a level cap if one was ever going to be implemented in the future for dungeons because of this very issue.

But from a completely new player's position (we'll probably be seeing many of these when the PS3 version comes out eventually) in the game, they won't have instant access to high level friends. As has been pointed out in this thread, it takes very little time to rank up battle classes in this game and a person could reach rank 30 within a couple of days. In that time, that particular new player would be extremely lucky to know anyone well enough to come and do anything for them if they asked. They would either spend time looking for other people around their level or already have a group of players in their level range that they roll with.
In any case, I think the dev team had newer players in mind when they made these lower level dungeons. It won't be 100% of players taking the easy way since for some of them, they don't have that option anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Perrin_Aybarra

I think most wants that, but the opposing crew just yells louder.

---

this isnt 11 though

yes cop had a cap, yes cop was great BUT

it was also a long drawn out story driven set of missions, with a rising cap as you went along it

that IS NOT what these dungeons are, they are just that dungeons



the main issue here isnt that people want a cap on the dungeons, its that the 30 dungeon isnt meant for endgame

people want endgame only content, they think everything else is a waste, so if it isnt endgame content, lets find a way to make it so it feels like endgame content
and heaven forbid anyone have a way to get the gear in them easier then anyone else, thats just unfair

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renshi

Yeah, they should've only released high-ranked Dungeons so everyone who plays today would be happy.
What about the beginners? They have to wait for reaching a high rank before doing those dungeons?

You've reached R50 on every class? Rise another character. It's your own responsibility to have reached the cap with every class afterall =)

---

people dont care about those who arent yet in the game or leveled to 50
they only care about having rank 50 content now, and if it isnt, they want it to be forced to be a challenge for rank 50s also

According to this thread, this is the right way to do things:

- Rank 10, 1* levequests should be balanced for R50s, since a R50 can help a R10 friend do the leve for the reward.
- Wharf Rats should be balanced for R50s, since a R50 can kill them to farm bone chips for their R1 friend.

OR

- You cannot do a R10 levequest on a R50 job.
- You cannot attack a wharf rat on a R50 job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

IF YOU WANT A CHALLENGE DO THE R50 DUNGEON! HOW IS THIS UNCLEAR?

---

Level 40s don't have that option. It's steamroll the level 30 dungeon or do nothing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Richard

Coming to the forums and asking FOR A LARGER CHALLENGE makes me look ridiculous? Since when has anyone asking for more of a challenge been ridiculous.

---

I don't disagree with what you're looking for, but the solution that you're proposing. Why is level cap superior to level sync?

Also, it was mostly your comparison to "breastfeeding at 15 years old" that made you look ridiculous.

I don't want this to be another "one run and done" patch. That is the point of this thread and those of us that want meaningful content. I try to get as much fun and enjoyment as I can as it stands, but its tough when fewer and fewer people come on as they cap out their desirable jobs. Getting the friends and LS together for one or two raid nights a week is what this game needs. As it is heading now, its more like one raid every patch night, then wait for 2 months.

they could also do what Champions online does, they have certain monsters whose level is basically just hard, an no matter what level you are they con to each player as same level, or say 10 levels higher. Of course its still a bit easier due to having way more skills, a complete build, and the fact that you usually get somewhat stronger as you level. Its also helps with event/world NMs somewhat. Its one advanatge of the heavy level difference dependent formulas we have.


Anyhow i doubt they will do it, because apparently they are ok with the steam roll startegy, but whatevs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheVedis

this isnt 11 though

yes cop had a cap, yes cop was great BUT

it was also a long drawn out story driven set of missions, with a rising cap as you went along it

that IS NOT what these dungeons are, they are just that dungeons



the main issue here isnt that people want a cap on the dungeons, its that the 30 dungeon isnt meant for endgame

people want endgame only content, they think everything else is a waste, so if it isnt endgame content, lets find a way to make it so it feels like endgame content
and heaven forbid anyone have a way to get the gear in them easier then anyone else, thats just unfair

---

Would you be in favor of cap on story missions/fights with an increasing level cap? So you start the story at low level and end at higher level? Or is that again too restricting and maybe too challenging?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ogun_Riastradh

I don't want this to be another "one run and done" patch. That is the point of this thread and those of us that want meaningful content. I try to get as much fun and enjoyment as I can as it stands, but its tough when fewer and fewer people come on as they cap out their desirable jobs. Getting the friends and LS together for one or two raid nights a week is what this game needs. As it is heading now, its more like one raid every patch night, then wait for 2 months.

---

its not a 1 run and done patch though
thats the thing
there is ALSO a r50 dungeon, but people are completely ignoring that to rage over the "other" dungeon that isnt a r50 dungeon demanding it be as challenging as it


its not endgame content, and thats what people are really raging about here

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

According to this thread, this is the right way to do things:

- Rank 10, 1* levequests should be balanced for R50s, since a R50 can help a R10 friend do the leve for the reward.
- Wharf Rats should be balanced for R50s, since a R50 can kill them to farm bone chips for their R1 friend.

OR

- You cannot do a R10 levequest on a R50 job.
- You cannot attack a wharf rat on a R50 job.

---

The right way to do things is to Scale down a R.50 to R.30 if they want to do a R.30 instance instead of allowing them to retain all their abilities/gear that is above R.30. This gives the dungeon a challenge and meaning to people above R.30. It doesn't hurt the mid content players but expands the content to even higher level players.

In this thread: Vedis, Durti, and their apologist cohorts vs. people who want the game to actually be fun and challenging for ALL levels, not just 50's.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

According to this thread, this is the right way to do things:

- Rank 10, 1* levequests should be balanced for R50s, since a R50 can help a R10 friend do the leve for the reward.
- Wharf Rats should be balanced for R50s, since a R50 can kill them to farm bone chips for their R1 friend.

OR

- You cannot do a R10 levequest on a R50 job.
- You cannot attack a wharf rat on a R50 job.

---

instanced content is usually built with a different dynamic in mind. Overworld is overworld, but instances are generally created with a different plan

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Perrin_Aybarra

Would you be in favor of cap on story missions/fights with an increasing level cap? So you start the story at low level and end at higher level? Or is that again too restricting and maybe too challenging?

---

that is not a problem at all, thats something entirely different then whats going on here


but let me tell you what i really think


difficulty scaling, like leves, thats whats really needed here. you want a challenge, 5 star that baby!
of course, you can 1 star it too....but thats also your choice

its about choices and not being forced to do things a specific way(especialy when as i have stated, its NOT endgame content)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Exactly, which means the new content is going to go unused by half the population if capped.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

lvl 50 players who don't need the gear and don't want to run it as lvl 30 would be excluded.

---

Are you under the impression that under a level cap system rank 50 players will not be able to enter a rank 30 dungeon? Because that's not what "level cap" means.

The "level cap" we are talking about would have your rank 50 character delevel to rank 30 for the time he is in the dungeon in order to maintain game balance since the dungeon was designed to be played with rank 30 characters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lerris

Level 40s don't have that option. It's steamroll the level 30 dungeon or do nothing.

---

If someone took the time to level all their classes to r40 and not beyond? Besides this being an absurd example, all he has to do is get 5 more levels to do the r45 dungeon. And they have plenty of time now that the patch isn't due until mid-june.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eekiki

In this thread: Vedis, Durti, and their apologist cohorts vs. people who want the game to actually be fun and challenging for ALL levels, not just 50's.

---

oh yes, personal attacks, love it
we arent against fun, we are against people forcing people to play certain ways

we ARE NOT ruining your fun by going through a dungeon on our 50s when we arent playing with you

you are just mad that we CAN do it

its all about opinions and your sense of morality, and the fact you want it to be a r50 dungeon when its not

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheVedis

its not a 1 run and done patch though
thats the thing
there is ALSO a r50 dungeon, but people are completely ignoring that to rage over the "other" dungeon that isnt a r50 dungeon demanding it be as challenging as it


its not endgame content, and thats what people are really raging about here

---

I COULD CARE LESS ABOUT ENDGAME CONTENT. If I want to do a R.30 dungeon and not have to steamroll through it I should be able to. If that means that SE needs to implement a voluntary Scaling system then so be it. But dont FORCE me into steamrolling a dungeon where I want to have a fun challenge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AdvancedWind

According to this thread, this is the right way to do things:

- Rank 10, 1* levequests should be balanced for R50s, since a R50 can help a R10 friend do the leve for the reward.
- Wharf Rats should be balanced for R50s, since a R50 can kill them to farm bone chips for their R1 friend.

OR

- You cannot do a R10 levequest on a R50 job.
- You cannot attack a wharf rat on a R50 job.

---

If you seriously think that that is what we are in favor of, then you do not understand our position at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trinta

I don't disagree with what you're looking for, but the solution that you're proposing. Why is level cap superior to level sync?

Also, it was mostly your comparison to "breastfeeding at 15 years old" that made you look ridiculous.

---

Simply because level-sync is optional and won't be used UNLESS there is a greater reward at the end. Then again, level-sync REQUIRES you to have a lower level in your group as opposed to a cap (optional for better reward) doesn't have that restriction and offers replay value. Again I stress optional with better rewards since it will please both people who wants to steamroll the low content because its so fun to them, and the ones that want a challenged available to them with somethign to show for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Are you under the impression that under a level cap system rank 50 players will not be able to enter a rank 30 dungeon? Because that's not what "level cap" means.

The "level cap" we are talking about would have your rank 50 character delevel to rank 30 for the time he is in the dungeon in order to maintain game balance since the dungeon was designed to be played with rank 30 characters.

---

I know what a level cap is, thanks. What I am saying is that I am not going to waste all my time running through a dungeon repeatedly capped at lvl 30 just for some mid-level gear. If the dungeons were capped, I would simply ignore them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Richard

I COULD CARE LESS ABOUT ENDGAME CONTENT. If I want to do a R.30 dungeon and not have to steamroll through it I should be able to. If that means that SE needs to implement a voluntary Scaling system then so be it. But dont FORCE me into steamrolling a dungeon where I want to have a fun challenge.

---

then do it on your r30 jobs
YOU have that option
you dont have to force that down everyone elses throats though
we are not stopping you from doing it

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheVedis

oh yes, personal attacks, love it
we arent against fun, we are against people forcing people to play certain ways

we ARE NOT ruining your fun by going through a dungeon on our 50s when we arent playing with you

you are just mad that we CAN do it

its all about opinions and your sense of morality, and the fact you want it to be a r50 dungeon when its not

---

Its not about YOU. Its about what I MYSELF do in game. I personally don't want to be forced to steamroll a R.30 dungeon because I have all jobs above the recommended dungeon level.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheVedis

its not endgame content, and thats what people are really raging about here

---

No, people are upset because it will be played as though it was endgame by the community at large. Meaning those of us who try to form a PUG with our R30 will get three R25-30's together, then one of them will say, "wait i hav my r50 frend otw to pl us lol" and that's all she wrote.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Richard

I COULD CARE LESS ABOUT ENDGAME CONTENT. If I want to do a R.30 dungeon and not have to steamroll through it I should be able to. If that means that SE needs to implement a voluntary Scaling system then so be it. But dont FORCE me into steamrolling a dungeon where I want to have a fun challenge.

---

Then run it as a rank 30! lol. For pete's sake. Are you familiar with how the armoury system in FFXIV works?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Richard

Its not about YOU. Its about what I MYSELF do in game. I personally don't want to be forced to steamroll a R.30 dungeon because I have all jobs above the recommended dungeon level.

---

ok then if its about what YOU do in the game, why do YOU care what I do in the game?

if thats truewly how you feel, then you shouldnt care if i go through it on my 50

No rank cap was also a deception for me.

I had imagined caps would have worked even better than in FFXI since you can keep your usual gear and don't have to carry multiple sets of various ranks.

As people stated, and depending on final details, I would bet my house that the people building dungeon parties, even for the r25 one, will ask you for a r50 class to join them, and soon will ask for X or Y class because they're the most effective (add up both conditions and you will have some people left out and frustated since their X or Y class might just be rank 35).

Also, a cap would have helped balance SP from dungeon mobs, giving an additional alternative to grind sp. Everyone from 25 to 49 could have used dungeon to get decent sp for their class.

Sadly, my lowest fighting class is already 40 just by playing 4 hours efficiently every 2 days (which isn't hardcore or casual, just average imo). I wish I could experience challenge in more than 50% of the current content.

Anyway, back to fanboy mood, we'll find out once we get in !

Going to bring a bit of reason to this thread so people reading this will not have an annurism.

I understand that, those who wish to have this specific dungeon level capped, are looking for a unique and challenging experiences. The R30 dungeon would be more likely to offer this if all party members are the appropriate level. The actual degree of difficulty is unknown at this point, but it's safe to say 4 level 30s will have greater difficulty than any combination of higher rank classes. Capping the rank, therefore, would then keep the difficulty roughly the same.

First, I would like to say, there is not much preventing any player from playing this dungeon only as a level 30 class. The obvious reason others want to cap the dungeon for everyone is to control other players' playstyles. Not necessarily for nefarious reasons, but it is true if the degree of difficulty is not the same for everyone, there is a lesser sense of accomplishment by arbitrarily choosing to engage an encounter handicapped. But the fact is, it is more to prevent other players from doing something than from wanting to do something your own way, as noone is stopping you from collecting a group of r30 players and trying the dungeon. However, there are limitations; if experience is offered in this dungeon, eventually all your classes will outrank the dungeon and you will never be able to attempt the dungeon the way it was intended. Although it is possible to level multiple characters, it is impractical to expect players to constantly level characters and classes to do so. It IS unknown whether experience is offered at the moment, so it would be pointless to speculate any further to this point.

Now for players wanting to NOT have this dungeon be capped. Obviously every player has their own preferences, so it goes without saying that some or many players will want to 'steam-roll' through this dungeon. It is their preference, and it hurts noone outside of those who agree to group with them and those who feel their experience lessen others' own achievements. Not much more could be said to this point.

That said, this dungeon is intended to be a stepping stone. I don't believe it was intended to be seen as endgame content or some kind of dungeon for players to continually experience. More likely it will offer decent experience for r25-35 players and the chance to acquire gear to advance them into the higher levels. In short, it is an alternative to leves. The required 4 players for this dungeon make it optimal for a party of 4 to all be the appropriate level, as to maximize their SP.

In other words, the dungeon will be incentivized in a way that makes players want to be r25-35. However, if they choose to have a r50 in the group, they gain nothing other than a quicker run potentially at the cost of some SP. My point is, if you want a sustained challenge, look foward to the r50 dungeon, this r30 dungeon is intended to be something else entirely. ALSO consider the delays that would have been caused by implementing the code to restrict skills of a certain level and reduce the caps of characters. I think when you consider all these points and you still want a cap for the NON END GAME 'stepping stone' r30 dungeon for it's 'challenge' (that will already be diminished as its balanced for brand new r30 characters), and still wish for it to be capped; then you are most likely to biased in this particular situation to see clearly.

Ugh.
Unfortunate call.
A lot of us can't make our levels appropriate for R30 content ourselves, so it'll never be fun. It'll just be something we blow through if we ever even use it.

Maybe the R30 raid focusses on SP and yeah you get some good loot for midlevellers thus there's not a whole lot of point for a R50 to be wasting their time in it.

That'd be fine.

It's still inferior to giving current players two full raids at a designed challenge, not one raid at a designed challenge then a cakewalk they just blow through to get stash.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eekiki

No, people are upset because it will be played as though it was endgame by the community at large. Meaning those of us who try to form a PUG with our R30 will get three R25-30's together, then one of them will say, "wait i hav my r50 frend otw to pl us lol" and that's all she wrote.

---

i got a huge feeling youll easily find people to do it that arent 50s
or people who have 50s(and lower jobs) who will GLADLY go on that lower job to run it at the range you desire for it

so that shouldnt be a problem

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheVedis

people dont care about those who arent yet in the game or leveled to 50
they only care about having rank 50 content now, and if it isnt, they want it to be forced to be a challenge for rank 50s also

---

I believe that if people were constrained to reroll their character every notorious patch they'd cry no more =D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eekiki

No, people are upset because it will be played as though it was endgame by the community at large. Meaning those of us who try to form a PUG with our R30 will get three R25-30's together, then one of them will say, "wait i hav my r50 frend otw to pl us lol" and that's all she wrote.

---

And that is when you kindly say "No Thanks" You DON'T have to accept a higher lvl person in your pt.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheVedis

ok then if its about what YOU do in the game, why do YOU care what I do in the game?

if thats truewly how you feel, then you shouldnt care if i go through it on my 50

---

I never once said I care what you do. Why do you keep thinking that I give a damn about what you do ingame? AGAIN this is about how I play the game.

Quote:

---

Then run it as a rank 30! lol. For pete's sake. Are you familiar with how the armoury system in FFXIV works?

---

By the time this patch hits I wont have any 25-30 jobs left and I shouldn't be forced to leave one at mid content level just to experience the dungeon with a challenge. Are you familiar with common sense?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Richard

Its not about YOU. Its about what I MYSELF do in game. I personally don't want to be forced to steamroll a R.30 dungeon because I have all jobs above the recommended dungeon level.

---

Oh well, then it's a good thing you don't have all your jobs above the recommended level then: http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com...cicuid=1384495

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheVedis

that is not a problem at all, thats something entirely different then whats going on here


but let me tell you what i really think


difficulty scaling, like leves, thats whats really needed here. you want a challenge, 5 star that baby!
of course, you can 1 star it too....but thats also your choice

its about choices and not being forced to do things a specific way(especialy when as i have stated, its NOT endgame content)

---

Why would anyone do 5-stars if there is no incentive? Also scaling is not really good for replay value because at one point you will still out-level the content and be able to take people on your 5-star runs while they sit back and you clear everything. Optional cap with better rewards offers that, rewarded challenge for those who wish and no challenge for the others who wants that. So that even in 5 years, if you want to help a new person get those special rewards, you still have a challenge waiting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Richard

I never once said I care what you do. Why do you keep thinking that I give a damn about what you do ingame? AGAIN this is about how I play the game.



By the time this patch hits I wont have any 25-30 jobs left and I should be forced to Leave one at mid content level just to experience the dungeon with a challenge. Are you familiar with common sense?

---

so if you dont care how i play the game why do you w3ant to force me to play it your way?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by EgweneALvere

And that is when you kindly say "No Thanks" You DON'T have to accept a higher lvl person in your pt.

---

World doesn't work that way. You can say that, doesn't mean it's useful advice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DurtiMonkeyToe

Then run it as a rank 30! lol. For pete's sake. Are you familiar with how the armoury system in FFXIV works?

---

Our point is, we don't have R30's anymore. So yes, we are very familiar with the armoury system.