I understood him just fine its just my improper use of the english language due to exhaustion. Will update and fix the error. Also where you been?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
Best in Slot for SMN after 2.1?
Printable View
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01-15-2014, 02:36 AMRagnirok
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01-15-2014, 03:31 AMparadigmfellow
WHAT!?!?!?!?! Hold up! Now we are all of sudden changing BIS for Summoner this much? I just got my allagan boots and legs last night in my normal t1-t4 run. Now we are saying DET is the stat to prioritize?
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01-15-2014, 03:33 AMRagnirok
In our defense this conversation has been going on for a week
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01-15-2014, 03:45 AMparadigmfellowOh don't worry, I am just shocked! I have all of the items (except for the tremor earrings, allagan book, and allagan arms). Prior to my current gear setup, I had the mythos pants and legs. Once I got my items from turns 2 and 4 I noticed that I was doing a lot more crit damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnirok
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01-15-2014, 03:56 AMT0rin
Alright, so at a very basic level, in order to determine which items are indeed BiS, you have to have a method for determining how much each stat "weighs". Stat weight is basically a numerical representation of how much one thing is worth compared to another thing, so you can assign values to every item to determine how good things actually are, in terms of contributing to damage.
One of the major misconceptions about stat weights, is they were static. People bandied around data like "1 WD is worth 6 INT" or "1 INT is worth 6 CRT", etc. In reality, stat weights vary, sometimes greatly, from one person to the next, from one gear set to the next. In order to actually come up with realistic stat weights, you need a working and reliable damage formula.
This is where EasymodeX, those who inspired him and those who contributed data sets to refining the current formula come in. In this thread, you can see the formula being refined as more data sets are introduced, to get it to the point where a formula can be used for any class, any stats, to come up with a reliable damage number.
So, it's all just hokum, right? Nobody really knows, blah blah blah, right? Well, that was my basic stance a month ago. I believed one train of thought on stat weights. I believe differently now, or more accurately, know better. So, we've got this damage formula: (WD*.2714745 + INT*.1006032 + (DTR-202)*.0241327 + WD*INT*.0036167 + WD*(DTR-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (Potency/100)
The first thing we need to determine an actual BiS, is confirmation that this formula can indeed reliably and more important, accurately, determine damage values from stats. I'm going to give a single example, but in the process of my research, I had many many examples. I sat down in front of FFXIV:ARR, and I literally cast a single spell on a Striking Dummy hundreds of times in some cases. I tested Bio, Bio II, Miasma, Miasma II, Ruin, Ruin II, Fester, Blizzard II and Tri-Disaster. I just sat there, cast spells, wrote down the damage values that popped up. I wanted to eliminate potentially inaccurate parsing results from the equation, as well as record individual DoT ticks for validation.
So, here is an example set of data for Bio that I recorded earlier this morning for purposes of explaining this:
This was taken with 71 WD, 490 INT, 280 DTR and 563 CRT. So, before I can compare these results to the formula, I first need to come up with the non-crit values of all of these numbers. If a number was great than 120, I divided it by 1.5 to get the non-crit value. I'm left with this:Code:109 148 105 153 99 108 99 163 109 109 108 101 102 99 110 110 153 106
109 99 99 101 101 109 100 107 165 105 108 105 105 105 100 159 165 100
153 105 109 163 148 108 110 107 106 109 109 102 107 108 165 101 108 110
165 157 103 162 99 106 107 101 154 108 157 105 157 107 109 103 103 101
99 105 101 103 160 150 103 107 110 163 108 102 109 103 110 108 99 99
163 150 160 107 101
The average of all of these numbers is 105.031578947368. So, now we take the damage formula, plug my stats and potency for Bio (40) in and end up with this: (71*.2714745 + 490*.1006032 + (280-202)*.0241327 + 71*490*.0036167 + 71*(280-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (40/100)Code:109 99 105 102 99 108 99 109 109 109 108 101 102 99 110 110 102 106
109 99 99 101 101 109 100 107 110 105 108 105 105 105 100 106 110 100
102 105 109 109 99 108 110 107 106 109 109 102 107 108 110 101 108 110
110 105 103 108 99 106 107 101 103 108 105 105 105 107 109 103 103 101
99 105 101 103 107 100 103 107 110 109 108 102 109 103 110 108 99 99
109 100 107 107 101
What we get back is an un-modified value of 80.50345644. Now we need to apply the SMN trait "Main and Mend II" acquired at level 40, that "Increases base action damage and HP restoration by 30%." 80.50345644 * 1.3 = 104.6544934, which is within the acceptable range of +- 5% deviation compared to our in-game data collected and averaged to be 105.031578947368.
So, from this we can conclude that the formula, which again, I tested on far more than just Bio with i89 gear, I tested with 10 different skills across 5 different sets of varying ilvl gear, is giving us accurate results. Since we know we can rely on this formula for accurate results, we can now take to the task of finding stat weights.
For the next exercise, I'm going to use the "old"/current BiS set:
Allagan Grimoire of Casting
Summoner's Horn
Summoner's Doublet
Summoner's Ringbands
Allagan Rope Belt of Casting
Allagan Breeches of Casting
Allagan Boots of Casting
Hero's Necklace of Casting
Tremor Earring of Casting
Hero's Bracelet of Casting
Hero's Ring of Casting
Vortex Ring of Casting
This set confers the following attribute bonuses: 71 WD, 224 INT, 60 DTR, 224 CRT and 37 SS. Add that onto our base stats (with Soul of the Summoner) and we get total stats of: 71 WD, 499 INT, 262 DTR, 565 CRT and 378 SS. These stats are going to be our baseline for determining stat weights.
We start with some basic assumptions.. the aforementioned stats, the aforementioned damage formula, potency of 40 for Bio, our base damage and our modified damage values. From this point on, the base (un-modified) damage is fairly irrelevant, as the modified damage is what is representative of what we see in the game. From here, we need to come up with damage modified by critical hits.
The formula I am using, which again, I have verified with large data sets in game to be accurate with my selection of gear sets is: 0.0697 * CRT – 18.437. This formula came from Valk's work and has been independently verified by multiple people.
So I put my value of crit in and get the following formula and result: 0.0697 * 565 - 18.437 = 20.9435% chance to critical. Now we need to turn this number into something we can multiply our base damage value by, to get a crit modified damage average. So we have a 20.9435% chance to crit for +50% damage. So we'll do something like this: 1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 565 - 18.437)/100 = 1.1047175. Basically, averaged out, we are applying a 10.47175% bonus to damage for our critical hits.
We take our calculated base [modified] damage of 105.3834666 (calculated using the above formula with the BiS set stats), multiply it by 1.1047175 and get back a result of 116.4189598 damage, modified to include the average crit damage contribution.
Just to make sure nobody is lost so far... for our BiS set stats (71 WD, 499 INT, 262 DTR, 565 CRT and 378 SS) we have a crit modified damage value of 116.4189598. This is our baseline damage that our stat weights will be calculated against. To get our stat weights, what we're going to do is perform this same calculation, but each time with a single stat increased by 1. What this is going to do is give us a damage value that we can compare against our baseline damage, to determine how much damage was added by increasing a single stat by 1.
We'll start with WD: (72*.2714745 + 499*.1006032 + (262-202)*.0241327 + 72*499*.0036167 + 72*(262-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (40/100) * 1.3 * (1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 565 - 18.437)/100) = 117.6488683. So, the difference (delta) between this calculated value with +1 WD over our baseline is 0.946083514. This number is important, as we are going to divide this number by the delta for INT, to come up with the stat weight for WD. But, before we go there, let's calculate the other stat's deltas.
INT: (71*.2714745 + 500*.1006032 + (262-202)*.0241327 + 71*500*.0036167 + 71*(262-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (40/100) * 1.3 * (1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 565 - 18.437)/100) = 116.6242629, delta of 0.157925509.
DTR: (71*.2714745 + 499*.1006032 + (263-202)*.0241327 + 71*499*.0036167 + 71*(263-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (40/100) * 1.3 * (1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 565 - 18.437)/100) = 116.4768719, delta of 0.044547822.
CRT: (71*.2714745 + 499*.1006032 + (262-202)*.0241327 + 71*499*.0036167 + 71*(262-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (40/100) * 1.3 * (1 + 0.5*(0.0697 * 566 - 18.437)/100) = 116.4556858, delta of 0.028250875.
Now that we have our deltas, we can figure out the stat weights... since we want everything to be relative to INT, we divide the stat delta in question to the stat delta for INT, which comes up with a number relative to 1 INT.
WD: 0.946083514 / 0.157925509 = 5.990694731
INT: 0.157925509 / 0.157925509 = 1
DTR: 0.044547822 / 0.157925509 = 0.282081229
CRT: 0.028250875 / 0.157925509 = 0.178887348
For SS, I will fully admit that I have not redone these calculations, because they rely on establishing a specific rotation, applying SS modifiers to each spell, and figuring out and comparing to base (2.5sec) potency totals for a rotation performed within a static time frame. Rather than perform this work for this exercise, since most people will be able to agree that SS has a fairly minor impact on SMN damage overall, I'll simply use the SS weight derived by Eein at chocobro.com of 0.084943755, which about half that of CRT.
We now have stat weights for this particular BiS set of gear. Now coming up with a total stat weight for the set is a simple matter of multiplication... we take our set stat contributions (71 WD, 224 INT, 60 DTR, 224 CRT and 37 SS) and multiply each value by the stat weight, sum it all up and we get: (71*5.990694731)+(224*1)+(60*0.282081229)+(224*0.178887348)+(37*0.084943755) = 709.4778845 weighted INT.
What we see here is that each gear set has its own stat weights, and thus its own calculations to determine how 'good' it is. Previously, we were applying the same weights to every single set to come up with that determination (har!), but that was wrong. So, now that we've got a method, I did some expertimentation with gear sets to find other ~448 accuracy sets that could potentially offer a higher value of weighted INT. What I came up with was 2 sets, identical except for 2 specific slots, that had identical stat contributions and thus identical stat weights. These two sets are:
Allagan Grimoire of Casting
Allagan Circlet of Casting
Summoner's Doublet
Allagan Gloves of Casting
Allagan Rope Belt of Casting
Summoner's Trousers
Allagan Boots of Casting
Hero's Necklace of Casting
Tremor Earring of Casting
Hero's Bracelet of Casting
Allagan Ring of Casting
Vortex Ring of Casting
...and...
Allagan Grimoire of Casting
Allagan Circlet of Casting
Summoner's Doublet
Allagan Gloves of Casting
Hero's Belt of Casting
Summoner's Trousers
Allagan Boots of Casting
Hero's Necklace of Casting
Tremor Earring of Casting
Hero's Bracelet of Casting
Hero's Ring of Casting
Vortex Ring of Casting
You'll notice, the only difference is the belt and non-Vortex ring. You can use either Allagan belt and Allagan ring, or Hero's belt and Hero's ring, and you get the exact same bonuses. Both sets sport 448 ACC, just like the previous BiS set. The calculated stat weights for these two sets are as follows:
WD = 6.120637211, INT = 1, DTR = 0.282081229, CRT = 0.186899974, SS = 0.084943755
If you take the set stat bonuses of 71 WD, 224 INT, 103 DTR, 153 CRT and 48 SS, we get a weighted INT value of 720.2926048, which is 10.8147203 higher than our previous set.
And that's why the new sets are BiS. -
01-15-2014, 04:00 AMKeveeI wouldn't be so quick to say this, because this is what we said about DET.Quote:
Originally Posted by T0rin
Also, I can't find that weight you mention on chocobro forums. -
01-15-2014, 04:08 AMT0rinIt was taken from his sim, which is down at the moment. I'm completely open this this value being wrong, and will be working soon to create a SS modifiable timeline to determine how much of a potency multiplier we should apply for 1 SS, but I figured, for the time being, it was 'good enough' to explain what I'd done so far. Both sets have very similar SS values, the 'new BiS' has slightly more. If for some reason SS turned out to be the 'miracle stat', we could potentially need to come up with an SS focused set, but given the dynamics of DoTs benefiting from SS in such a minor way and Ruin being such a minor contribution to overall damage, I wouldn't reasonably expect an SS build to have the potential to be better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevee
But, like I said, I could be wrong. Hopefully I'll have the time in the next week to do that work, but for now, I do have some faith in Eein's sim's rotation, at least for this purpose. -
01-15-2014, 05:06 AMparadigmfellow
Well, I will still be looting for the rest of the allagan caster set (which are the book, tunic, and hands). Whenever there is a change I will be ready for it. However, I am going to hate how I will look with the Summoner's waistcoat and the allagan boots; I am going to be showing off capri pants!!!! (not happy about that).
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01-15-2014, 05:21 AMticdup
The myth pants and allagan feet end up being quite the stylish skirt on my character. It is 2014, it is ok to show some leg.
But, the horn! Such grief. -
01-15-2014, 07:04 AMShamirah
Oh no Kevee don't stop !
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01-15-2014, 10:54 AMAixa
Helloes, I read over the last post with stat weights. Im wondering if some more analysis has been done on the proc benefit. Obviously the statweights shown show that det is superior to crit per point but gear doesnt have the same amount of crit and det when that stat is the mainstat on the item.
Based on statweights det>crit by 1.516ish times. On gear crit has ~1.41 times the amount of det so the gap is about 7%. Could the SS proc cover that 7%? -
01-16-2014, 12:57 AMMaelwysYup, that's the same one I've been using and it certainly seems accurate.Quote:
Originally Posted by T0rin
I'm aware of Valk's original formula for Crit chance (indeed, it's still listed on his methodology pages) but it's actually been tweaked slightly since then:Quote:
The formula I am using, which again, I have verified with large data sets in game to be accurate with my selection of gear sets is: 0.0693 x CRT – 18.486. This formula came from Valk's work and has been independently verified by multiple people.
Critical Hit Rate Formula Updates
- Updated formula is 0.0697xCRT – 18.437 (old formula was 0.0693xCRT – 18.486).
It's not vastly different, but might be enough to skew stacked stats in favour of one BIS item or another.
Did you consider a Melded Astral Ring? I make it better than the Hero or Allagan one using the above formulas, especially since you can meld Vit and Acc onto it.Quote:
What I came up with was 2 sets, identical except for 2 specific slots, that had identical stat contributions and thus identical stat weights. These two sets are:
(Item lists snipped)
And that's why the new sets are BiS.
The ideal melds on such a HQ Astral would probably be Mk4 Vit, Mk3 Crit, Mk3 Crit and Mk2 Acc... plus either a Mk4 Piety or Mk4 SS for the final slot if you're megarich.
(The stats would end up at 9 Mnd, 7 Vit, 9 Int, 12 Acc, 12 Crit, 8 Det... plus either 6 PIE or 9 SS)
Indeed, I'm aiming at the following gear for my (very eventual) BIS SMN:
+ Hero's Neck
+ Tremor Earring
+ Hero's Wrist
+ Vortex Ring
+ Melded HQ Astral Ring
+ Allagan Weapon
+ Allagan Head
+ Myth Body
+ Allagan Hands
+ Allagan Sash
+ Summoner Legs
+ Allagan Feet
+ HQ Buttons in a Blanket
With the above, I make it a total of 449 Acc, plus an additional +222 Int, 165 Crit, 111 Det and either 32 or 41 SS from gear (depending on whether the 5th Meld on the Astral Ring is Piety or SS)... with HQ Buttons in a Blanket and in-party, my Seawolf would end up with 505 Int, 516 Crit, 328 Det and be sitting at a hair under 4900HP.
Technically maximum DPS could be achieved by picking the Heros Earring over the Tremor one... but we'd need a little more accuracy in order to cap out the pets (433 Acc with Heros compared to 449 Acc with Tremor). A compromise would be to take the Heros Earring but swap the Allagan belt for the Heros Belt (444 Acc and a slightly lower reduction in DPS) if you think that's enough to cap your accuracy. -
01-16-2014, 01:53 AMT0rinGreat to know, thank you. I updated my 'math post' to include this formula, and re-did all the math I had done that comes after applying the crit damage multiplier. All sets went up in weighted int, slightly, the "old" BiS more than the new ones. But, in the end, nothing changed in terms of BiS, and the new sets are only 0.04 weighted int less better than they were. So, they're still almost 11 int better than the "old" BiS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
I did. For the new BiS sets, using these weights (WD = 6.120637211, INT = 1, DTR = 0.282081229, CRT = 0.186899974, SS = 0.084943755) I value the Allagan Ring at 14.35910008 weighted INT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
If I used an Astral Ring melded with SS, using these weights (refactored to use Astral stats, WD = 6.104333403, INT = 1, DTR = 0.282081229, CRT = 0.185618633, SS = 0.084943755) I value the Astral Ring w/ SS at 14.24856722 weighted INT.
If I meld an Astral Ring with 6 PIE instead, I get a value of 13.48407343 weighted INT, obviously even less than the Allagan Ring.
But one thing this does bring up is that for someone going for the Allagan Belt/Ring set, you could temporarily use a melded Astral Ring in lieu of the Allagan Ring, since it is _almost_ as good. I still have never seen the Allagan Ring drop, but I do have the belt, and I do have a melded Astral Ring, so I could start using this newer set sooner.
I show, using the new BiS weights (refactored to include these items instead) that the Hero's Earring is worth 16.61574991 weighted INT and the Allagan Earring is worth 16.91996375 weighted INT. So for Max DPS (which is a valid thing if doing Ex Primals that have significantly lower ACC caps) you'd want the Allagan Earring instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
443 wouldn't be enough to cap, but theoretically you can go less than 12 acc (~6?) under 450 and if you got significantly enough secondary stats out of it, it could be worth it. But this set would have 443 ACC (Allagan Ring instead of Astral Ring, since it is better) and a total weighted INT of 719.6903469, so even with less accuracy, it is worse damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
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01-16-2014, 02:51 AMMaelwysI think I can see where I'm getting slightly different numbers than yours - my Spreadsheet is using the Base stats for my character, along with +30 INT from allocated points, then adds in equipment stat buffs, and finally applies food and party buffs (party buffs being applied last, after food) and THEN factors the sum of all those into the stat formulas.Quote:
Originally Posted by T0rin
Base stats for my character are 241+30 INT, 341 Crit, 202 Det.
Food buffs (after equipment) are 10 Crit and 15 Det with HQ Buttons in a Blanket.
In-Party buffs are percentage based and vary slightly depending on gear, but the only one applicable to our purposes here is 3% extra INT which for this setup is 14.
For the equipment combination I posted above (Astral Ring), I'm getting a grand total of 505 INT, 516 Crit, 328 Det.
If I swap the Astral Ring for a Heros Ring (ignoring the accuracy loss for the moment) I get 509 INT, 520 Crit and 320 Det.
Plugging those values into the formulas...
First, for the Astral Ring setup:
Raw Damage = 71*0.2714745 + (505)*0.10060032 + (328-202)*0.241327 + 71*(505)*0.0036167 + 71*(328-202)*0.00108 - 1 = 238.8235116
Crit chance is (0.0697*516 -18.437) = 17.5282%
Crit adjusted Damage = 238.8235116*(1-0.175282) + 238.8235116*1.5*0.175282 = 259.754242980136
Second, for the Hero's Ring setup:
Raw Damage = 71*0.2714745 + (509)*0.10060032 + (320-202)*0.241327 + 71*(509)*0.0036167 + 71*(320-202)*0.00108 - 1 = 237.70899968
Crit chance is (0.0697*520 -18.437) = 17.807%
Crit adjusted Damage = 237.70899968*(1-0.17807) + 237.70899968*1.5*0.17807 = 258.873420466509
Result: an (utterly tiny!) increase in DPS for the Astral ring setup.
(It's certainly possible I've made a maths derp here, or at least a typo copying all the formulas from the spreadsheets... but just wanted to check!) :) -
01-16-2014, 03:44 AMT0rinRaw Damage = 71*0.2714745 + 505*0.1006032 + (328-202)*0.0241327 + 71*505*0.0036167 + 71*(328-202)*0.00108 - 1 = 211.4584842Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
Crit chance is (0.0697*516 -18.437) = 17.5282%
Crit adjusted Damage = 211.4584842*(1-0.175282) + 211.4584842*1.5*0.175282 = 229.9909172
Raw Damage = 71*0.2714745 + 509*0.1006032 + (320-202)*0.0241327 + 71*509*0.0036167 + 71*(320-202)*0.00108 - 1 = 212.0815382Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
Crit chance is (0.0697*520 -18.437) = 17.807%
Crit adjusted Damage = 212.0815382*(1-0.17807) + 212.0815382*1.5*0.17807 = 230.964218
You did. :) See the above bolded numbers in my damage formulas and how they affect the outcome. Those 2 numbers were not input correctly into the formulas you used when making the comparison. Hero's Ring does more damage on a per cast basis, and one thing you neglected to consider is that it also has 11 spell speed, which is 2 or 11 more than the Astral Ring, depending on how you meld it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
But this does bring up a good point... I need to add some variables to my spreadsheet.. party buffs, race base int variations and food. -
01-16-2014, 04:17 AMMaelwysAha! Powers of 10, my sworn enemy, we meet again...Quote:
Originally Posted by T0rin
:D
That makes the Heros slightly better than the Astral which is slightly better than the Allagan.
Possibly still a better option if accuracy is lacking, but not "better DPS".
That explains it. Cheers!
(I realise I ignored Spell Speed and Accuracy, I was trying to make the comparison as simple as possible. Obviously not simple enough!!) ;) -
01-16-2014, 04:49 AMT0rinIf you factor in spell speed (you should), the Allagan Ring has a weighted INT of 14.35910008 and the Astral Ring has a weighted INT of 14.29614945.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
So, from a DPS perspective... Hero > Allagan > Astral.
It is nice, that if you need accuracy on that ring slot, that Astral is almost as good as Allagan, but it is not BiS in any set.. the 4 INT is just worth too much. -
01-16-2014, 05:18 AMMaelwysI know... :(Quote:
Originally Posted by T0rin
The problem for me with trying to get a weight for SS (and Piety) is that it's very difficult to accurately model. For the Summoner, SS and Piety will depend on the rotation you're using... and for the pets, it gets complicated... Garuda, for example, is the usual "goto" pet. As a caster she would benefit slightly from any inherited Spellspeed... but Ifrit (useful when there's a Monk) and Titan are largely melee and would be more likely to work off Skillspeed instead. I've not come across much in the way of parsing to see juts how this effects the pet's standard "Obey" rotations let alone their "Sic" ones.
After correcting the formula (thanks again!) your above two builds seem to work out at 229.71 on my sheet - 509 INT, 320 Det and 503 Crit.
If I take both the Allagan Belt and the Hero's Ring, then swap the Hands and Legs around for their Allagan/Hero counterparts to offset the lost accuracy... I can get very slightly higher at 230.15 - 509 INT, 290 Det and 554 Crit. I suspect the food/party buffs are to blame.
(And again, this ignores Skillspeed which is 389 for the first build and 378 for the second!!) :p
I think that last setup might be as high as I can push my theorycrafting now in terms of DPS without losing too much Accuracy - as you pointed out, the Astral Ring makes a nice near-replacement but it just can't slot into any viable configuration as a "BIS". -
01-16-2014, 12:00 PMjars
allagen is always better than dl though? even with the crappy spell speed
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01-16-2014, 05:33 PMMadoka
I get the Allagan boots and pants this week (while being on awful hotel internet at AGDQ) and you guys do all this stuff.
I'll just be a mildly inferior SMN and maybe lot on the Allagan changes if they show up. -
01-17-2014, 12:38 PMWorldFree
Maybe I'm missing something here but, once you have the Weapon Damage Formula, isn't the only thing that matters the crit modified base damage?
With Bio as an example I get 116.418 for the "old" BiS and 116.245 for the "new" BiS set.
Using Fester as an example I get 873.142 and 871.843 for "old" and "new".
Not sure why that doesn't correlate to the Stat weights and Total INT calculations. But old > new on per cast basis
EDIT: Also, What about Maim and Mend I at Level 20 which is a 10% boost to base action damage -
01-17-2014, 12:50 PMKalandros
Thats just theoretical BiS for Twintania.
You don't need that much Accuracy for anything else. -
01-17-2014, 02:06 PMSeobit
Caster accuracy is the same for all of coil, unlike physical classes who have different requirements for 1-4 and 5.
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01-17-2014, 11:20 PMT0rinSo you take off the earring and use the allagan one instead. You take off the acc belt/ring and use a better one instead. I mean, I can math out sub-448 acc sets, but this is BiS for 448. The whole point was to disprove the long help (by many, not all) idea that CRT > DET for purposes of determining what is best, when it isn't that simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kalandros
Damage per cast is not the whole picture, you need to factor in spell speed, which contributes to overall weight.Quote:
Originally Posted by WorldFree
Maim and Mend I does not stack with Main and Mend II. -
01-18-2014, 02:10 AMWorldFreeEven when ignoring spell speed the Total INT weight is ~706 for old BiS and ~716 for new BiS.Quote:
Originally Posted by T0rin
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01-18-2014, 03:04 AMT0rinYou do bring up a good point... hmmm..Quote:
Originally Posted by WorldFree
So right now.. I'm determining weights based on gear adjusted stat totals. Then I'm applying those weights to the gear based stat totals to determine a point value for the entire set. It seems like I need something that is more static somewhere in order to make the gear sets relative to each other.
In no scenario should a set that ignores SS contribution produce less damage per hit than another set with a lower weighted int total. Yet that is what is happening. Perhaps creating a valuation of the set as a whole based on relative stat weights is not the way to go. I need to come up with a better way to factor in SS contributions as a modifier to the damage formula itself, which means we need to sim a rotation which is at least a minute in length, to figure out a true SS modifier.
Well, this is discouraging, but helpful. Obviously my methodology for determining BiS is flawed, I guess the question is... what should be done to fix it? It seems based on preliminary results, that the old and new sets are very close without SS factored in and will be even closer with SS factored in, but obviously this disconnect between stat weights and damage output needs to be corrected. -
01-18-2014, 03:17 AMticdupOver how many samples of fester with each gear was done to derive these averages?Quote:
Originally Posted by WorldFree
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01-18-2014, 03:23 AMT0rinNone, they were calculated.Quote:
Originally Posted by ticdup
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01-18-2014, 03:29 AMparadigmfellow
There goes the new BIS
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01-18-2014, 03:32 AMT0rinNo, from the numbers, and the un-factored in SS, which is better on the new sets, the end result is going to be that the old and new are almost identical in damage output. Which is good, because people with the old set won't be bad off, and people have the flexibility of adopting the new set.Quote:
Originally Posted by paradigmfellow
There is just more work to be done, we have to sim out a proper rotation with the damage formula and gear set bonuses before we can really know what produces the best damage. My methodology for determining what is best simply brought a new set into the spotlight. Now we need to create a scenario that is as close to actual gameplay as possible to figure out which is actually best.
In the end, I am fairly certain they are going to be _really_ close. -
01-18-2014, 03:43 AMKicoe
Is there an average damage per cast for our damage spells mathed out somewhere? Crit vs Det BiS, crit hit rate & crit damage included?
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01-18-2014, 03:50 AMxxalucardBecause there are several factors that theoretical values such as "int weight" alone cannot account for independent of class, rotation, and scenario.Quote:
Originally Posted by T0rin
One of the main things overlooked when comparing stats is that a number if pieces of gear with crit (the real BiS) also come with DET, such as the majority of hero accessories, the allagan weapon***, and the SMN doublet. So there is already a "moderate amount of DET" there to begin with.
I understand what you were trying to do was promote a superior result in overall damage, but our dots only take a small amount of time to cast, the rest of the time there IS a per-cast importance of damage on things like ruin II (especially when you try to filter in as many auto attacks as possible), where crit holds significant weight compared to det. DET doesn't even guarantee more damage, it just raises the two ends of the "damage range" things can hit for (very slightly)-- which, theoretically** (not as often in reality), will add to more damage-- but the majority of the time those two windows, whether one has a higher floor than the other, will hit about the same without regard to that floor. At least this is so when considering the base amount of DET that comes with the crit BiS.
Also your formulas do not account for burst, where crit plays a much more important role than DET.
While it's only a chance, and people seem to have a bias when comparing it to other classes like bard, a wise man once said "every little bit counts," and maximizing that crit chance will help more when you try to push a boss or a mechanic in a certain phase than DET's slight raise to the "consistent damage window."
What I meant by DET having 0 effect on auto attacks is that compared to crit, it basically has no significance. I hit for maybe 5-7 less damage (as a window range) when I'm completely naked with the Relic +1. That's at 202 DET. At 282 DET, I hit for ~5-7 more. That means it can take around 12-15 DET to *maybe* raise the two edges of that damage window by 1. And like before, it doesn't guarantee that one window hits higher than the other. I find it impossible that raising the edge of that window by even +2 more, with sacrificing that much crit, can ever be worth it. One extra crit would be worth more than a lot of +2 auto attacks, which aren't even guaranteed to be +2 compared to the other floor.Quote:
Originally Posted by T0rin
I know you spent hours doing the theoretical math, but that doesn't make you right. It's also not nice to say something is "as simple as" when you are promoting a flawed system.
I understand that inexperienced players will sometimes jump to the newest bandwagon. Even when that wagon is propelled by completely arbitrary and flawed wheels :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Seobit
PS: Kobe -
01-18-2014, 04:00 AMEasymodeX
It should be pretty straightforward to put together a model for DPS output for a SMN, since it's not as "internally dependent on its own cycle annoying infinite mana regen bullshit" that characterizes BLM sequences.
If you want you can use my workbook I put together for the physical classes: http://www.fileswap.com/dl/qBoh3iIFB/
It's not particularly user-friendly but most of the stuff in there should be usable for all the basics (SMN direct damage, DoTs). The only significant changes that would need to be made is to add columns to simulate the pet with its independent cast rate (otherwise the pet would be trivial to add -- actually you could simulate it as the same cast rate as the player, but model the SS proc enhancement). Also something in the timings formulas to add time for Contagion.
Edit:
Alternatively you can try to get a hold of pandabearcat / panda's simulator which seemed reasonably solid and add in SMN definitions. IIRC that's programming-intensive though. -
01-18-2014, 04:15 AMT0rinThere is, a page back. The CRT set has a 0.01% 'lead' in damage per cast over the DTR set, without factoring in SS, which is what I'm working on now. The DTR set has more SS, so in the end, it will likely make up the different and then some, but will not be very far ahead at all. I think they are going to be pretty damn close to equal, in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kicoe
True.. but that doesn't affect anything. Itemization is one thing, and contributes to what makes a particular piece BiS, but in the end, it is the set as a whole that confers the most damage, that is BiS. I've never advocated for completely abandoning CRT. The whole point was to find the best mix of gear that would give the most damage. The power of CRT and WD is based on your INT and DTR. You cannot just go balls out on CRT, ignoring DTR (you can't really ignore INT) and expect to automatically have the most damage potential. DTR confers more damage on a point to point basis, but that doesn't mean that because Allagan Tunic of Casting has more DTR than Summoner's Doublet, that it is better. It isn't. The sum of the benefit of the CRT _and_ DTR makes it better.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxalucard
We long held onto the idea that CRT was better than DTR on a point to point basis, that this other stuff aside, has not changed the reality that we were wrong. DTR comes in smaller quantities, and sometimes in larger sums on otherwise inferior pieces of gear. The point is not to simply go full out DTR and assume that is best. The point is to find the right mix of CRT and DTR that allows you to get the most damage.
But DTR affects all spells the same, DoTs, Ruin, Fester, etc. DTR is better than CRT for every single spell. CRT will never weight more than DTR on a point to point basis. It is mathematically impossible, the damage formula simply does not allow for it right now. Now, at some point in the future, when we have i250 gear with significantly higher INT and DTR totals, CRT can potentially out-weight DTR, since DTR does not scale. But given the gear that exists right now, the closest you can get CRT to DTR's 0.282081229 weight, is ~0.19. You'd need to add 250 iNT and 250 DTR to push the weight of CRT to the level that DTR is at. (and will remain)Quote:
Originally Posted by xxalucard
By your very defintion, it raises guaranteed damage. There is a 5% range of variation on damage. Sure, if you added 30 DTR, it is possible that a single cast (low roll) would be less than a single cast (high roll) of the same set without 30 DTR. That is an inane argument to make though, as we're not comparing single good vs single bad damage rolls to determine whether something is better. We're using averages, which when you play for hundreds or thousands of hours, is what matters. When you kill Ex Titan 30 times to get your earring, it doesn't matter that a single cast with a superior set was less than a single cast with an inferior set.. if you took the damage done over 30 titan comes, the superior set always comes out ahead. DTR increases min and max, and by extension, average damage. Just like CRT does.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxalucard
You could apply the same scenario to CRT. One set with 450 crit casts 10 spells and crits 4 times, and a set with 550 crit casts 10 spells and crits 3 times. Does that make the first set better? No, of course not.
And yes, each point of DTR raises the min and max very slightly. Each point of CRT raises average damage done very slightly as well. It doesn't mean either are not worth it, because we're not talking about adding 1 or 2 points of each, we're talking about adding 50 or 100 or 150, at which point it does make a significant contribution.
You cannot account for burst. Burst is front-loading as much damage as possible. CRT is not by definition better than DTR at burst. CRT could be better if you get lucky rolls. It could be worse if you got unlucky rolls. On average, it will be what it its average damage contribution is, and nothing more. You don't determine whether you can kill a conflag reliably by requiring lucky crits. CRT, by its very nature, is worse at burst simply on the merit that you are more susceptible to RNG than with DTR. When you have a DPS check like a 'fast' conflag, you're better off with the set that will guarantee you kill it in time, than the set that could potentially kill it faster if you get lucky, or potentially fail the DPS check if you get unlucky.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxalucard
CRT is more important on BRD, because the CRT procs make a significant impact on their ability to deal damage, in addition to the normal contribution it makes. That scenario does not apply to SMN, because the only proc we get on crits is a fairly weak one.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxalucard
Why are you thinking about all of this in terms of one or two or ten attacks? Your RNG performance and potential to do better with crits is completely irrelevant to average damage output. Average damage is all that matters, because your performance does not boil down to 5 auto attacks or 7 casts of Ruin, it boils down to thousands upon thousands of them. And after thousands of them, all of this RNG bias is washed away, and all you are left with is averages. These formulas prove that on average, DTR makes a larger contribution than CRT. You simply cannot argue the merit of CRT vs DTR based on such a small set of data. It is inconsequential.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxalucard
No, I spent hours casting the same spells over and over and over and over to collect the real data used to prove the theoretical math. Proving the math is important because only then can the math be relied upon as a basis for analysis of the damage done. If you can't prove the math, then you have no way to prove that anything is better than anything else, and then we're just having a completely pointless discussion. Math, as a means to prove value, is all that matters when it comes to issues of BiS. Nothing else can determine what is really best, and certainly not anecdotal "well I cast Ruin four times and did less average damage with 48 more DTR than I did with 73 more CRT" situations that you're describing.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxalucard
I admit, my system of judging BiS is flawed. Obviously I didn't know that at the time. The end result and conclusion was flawed because of how the stat weights are applied and used as a measure for comparison. When you get back to average damage output, these 'new' and 'old' BiS are practically identical before you even factor in SS, which means that in the end, the 'new' is still going to better, though only very slightly. The work done wasn't all in vain, it proved a lot of assumptions false, and it brought to light the reality that INT > DTR > CRT > SS. That is an important step to the final conclusion about what is best. -
01-18-2014, 05:11 AMSeobitBetter than to remain stuck with proofless notions and archaic ideas, motivated by a false sense of insecurity, using nothing but fallacies to oppose any attempts at advancing knowledge. If one is defined as experienced by his inability to change or adapt then you can keep that endearing quality for yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by xxalucard
Flawed wheels get fixed. You can stay home. -
01-18-2014, 10:11 AMT0rin
Spent a few hours today programming a sim to parse out some psuedo realistic numbers for different sets... still trying to add more complexity to it, right now it just keeps all 3 dots up, festers during ogcds, aetherflows when it is off of cd and charges = 0(during ogcd), casts ruin 2 when an ogcd is needed and otherwise just spams ruin. Going to work in shadow flare and miasma2/contagion/pet attacks next. But got some preliminary data...
Simulation complete - stats = WD: 71, INT: 499, DTR: 262, CRT: 565, SS: 378, GCD: 2.46, PGCD: 2.96, total = 64955 damage (old BiS)
Simulation complete - stats = WD: 71, INT: 499, DTR: 305, CRT: 494, SS: 389, GCD: 2.45, PGCD: 2.95, total = 64972 damage (new BiS)
Really close.
Edit: Interesting... decided to compare my current gear (with 426 base accuracy) against the same set, but with myth and allagan pants... unexpected results:
Simulation complete - stats = WD: 71, INT: 490, DTR: 280, CRT: 563, SS: 408, GCD: 2.43, PGCD: 2.93, total = 66090 damage (overmelded vanya pants)
Simulation complete - stats = WD: 71, INT: 499, DTR: 279, CRT: 536, SS: 389, GCD: 2.45, PGCD: 2.95, total = 65055 damage (myth pants)
Simulation complete - stats = WD: 71, INT: 499, DTR: 262, CRT: 570, SS: 389, GCD: 2.45, PGCD: 2.95, total = 65201 damage (allagan pants)
I think spell speed is better than anyone (except maybe Kevee) has given it credit for. -
01-19-2014, 01:23 AMMadoka
Well it allows another ruin per minute or so, so if you set it to simulate for 5 minutes you'd have 5 extra ruins. easily accounting for the extra 1000 damage. Unfortunately, that's also where the realistic practices of playing comes in. We'll never have that much uptime to keep casting where the added .09 seconds removed from the gcd would mean an additional spell inbetween all the dodging and crap in real fights.
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01-19-2014, 02:14 AMT0rinYeah, at some point theorycrafting, math and sims can only go so far. Damage per cast is an important measure. Being able to sneak in 1 extra spell in a string of 20 uninterrupted spells is a little less realistic. However, there are situations where even 0.02 off your GCD can be the difference between finishing a spell and having to break it. (Ex Titan for instance) Plus, if you account for all the times you had to break a spell early.. had the previous 5-8 spells that were uninterrupted been just a little faster, maybe you would have got the last one off?Quote:
Originally Posted by Madoka
SS is a funny stat, one that is almost impossible to associate realistic value to. -
01-19-2014, 02:41 AMKaaylryn
To be honest, I use BIS threads to get a foundation or idea of where I should go with gear. So much of the supposed BIS is RNG related so I tend to get what I can and mix and match. We have run BC every week since it launched and have only seen the Allaghan head once (blm got it), the boots twice (yay), the ring twice (again yay) the belt, chest and legs zero times. Of course the chest is no big deal for me. I did get the hands, which I don't use yet due to accuracy cap and have only dropped once. Garuda and titan items are also RNG drops, no luck for me yet.
My tome items are guaranteed so I use what I can. Point being that I still do decent DPS and bosses still die. BIS is a guideline for me, but in the end, I can still only use what I have in my armory chest and if the end result is very close between CRT and DET sets, I am not going to sweat the small stuff. My thanks to those that have the head for numbers to do the math however. -
01-19-2014, 03:13 AMGeorgevonfrankenThat's the same logic for the blm spell speed set, but as a smn it is very rare for me to have to break a cast, we have short casts with shadow flare being the only one over 2.5. Maybe while learning fights having a spell speed set would be useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by T0rin