Thief>Ninja/Dancer Class/Job

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nahara

Exactly this. SE removed the arrow market specifically because they did not want to tie a class's entire value to a consumable. If a class came out that fought with throwing daggers/needles/shuriken/whatever, the "weapon" players would actually be equipping would be some kind of ammo pouch on their waists/hips (and the design of the daggers/needles/shuriken/whatever would change depending on what ammo pouch you equip).

---

I would expect a class that uses thrown weapons as its primary combat methodology to actually just ignore the whole concept of "carry a lot of them" and just look like they're carrying 1-2 copies of the weapon in a normal combat stance, similar to what WAR, PLD, and LNC use with the weapons that they hurl at their foes. It gives a better aesthetic in general since you can actually see the weapon when you're not throwing it.

I highly doubt they'll do a straight "throwing weapons" class because there's not much variation you can do on throwing weapons that isn't just a copy of what ARC already does.

Agree on the aesthetics, doesn't matter if your throwing a dagger, a shield, an axe, an arrow, or a fish. That's just fluff.

Not sure if I'd write off the "Throwing Weapons" as a class though. Give it an interesting mechanic or style and I think it could....

...hit its mark.

Yeah, I went there.

man you people have some time on your hands!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

I highly doubt they'll do a straight "throwing weapons" class because there's not much variation you can do on throwing weapons that isn't just a copy of what ARC already does.

---

To be honest, there's not much you can do with any new Job due to how this games limited roles and restrictions on certain mechanics this game has. Giving a stealth to a dagger class wont make it mechanically much that different than a monk or other positional melee classes we receive in the future.

However a new Dex based ranged damage dealer will offset all the Strength ones we have at the moment and the many ones we are for sure going to get in the future. Having Archer and Musketeer as the only two ranged physical Dex classes might be a bit disappointing.

What I was really thinking is combining Ninjutsu and throwing weapons. Using magical ninja art scrolls to perhaps inflict status effects or give small buffs to itself or allies while using ranged bladed throwing weapons.

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Ninjutsu

Some Ninjutsu in Final Fantasy history.

I think combining both throwing weapons and Ninjutsu can make a unique Job that's different from Archer if done right. Literally Ninjutsu has endless possibilities on what it can do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

I would expect a class that uses thrown weapons as its primary combat methodology to actually just ignore the whole concept of "carry a lot of them" and just look like they're carrying 1-2 copies of the weapon in a normal combat stance, similar to what WAR, PLD, and LNC use with the weapons that they hurl at their foes. It gives a better aesthetic in general since you can actually see the weapon when you're not throwing it.

---

Agreed. Hypothetically and best case scenario, such a throwing weapon class would always have at least one of the ammunition drawn (like how Thancred holds his knives) so players can actually see what the ammunition looks like, and it would only briefly disappear while using a ranged ability. SE did something similar to this in XI when it came to some thrown weapons, like Shuriken; they were given actual in-game models that appeared in the hand briefly before they were "thrown". If used in XIV, a new one would appear in the hand immediately after, and all in all, the ammo pouch would still need to be somewhere on the body (so it at least didn't look like you were pulling them out of your ass or some invisible pocket).

Quote:

---

I highly doubt they'll do a straight "throwing weapons" class because there's not much variation you can do on throwing weapons that isn't just a copy of what ARC already does.

---

Also agree, as this was something I spent the last couple hours thinking about, but as Calypsx mentions above, it wouldn't be too unreasonable to suggest a mix of Ninjutsu "spells" to mix in with the actual weapon throwing. Could be a fun way to introduce some new status ailments like Oil, which could boost the damage of another ninjutsu spell that dealt fire damage (restricted to the ninjutsu, since that would make it a must-have for any group that had a THM).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calypsx

What I was really thinking is combining Ninjutsu and throwing weapons. Using magical ninja art scrolls to perhaps inflict status effects or give small buffs to itself or allies while using ranged bladed throwing weapons.

---

The problem with this is that, in all cases, the Ninja magic and throwing weapons that Ninjas get have always been secondary functionality. The primary damage mechanism of a Ninja has *always* been straight up stabbing people. Building a Ninja class/job around throwing/magic would be like building DRG around *only* jumping or building PLD as a healer role.

Quote:

---

Literally Ninjutsu has endless possibilities on what it can do.

---

I'm not sure how you can say that the possibilities for Ninjutsu are endless because there are some pretty obvious boundaries upon what is actually practical to bring under the descriptor of "ninjutsu", since it's an explicit discipline in real life. You can push the boundaries upon the real world limitations of Ninjutsu by playing upon the mystical themes, such that Ninjutsu actually has access to unique ninja magic, but there are certain points where you're going to have to stop because it just stops looking like what you were originally intending.

No matter how you design a Ninja, it still has to adhere to the basic archetype of the Ninja that exists. You can emphasize certain aspects over others, but there are still limitations, especially since we're dealing with a series that already has a pretty strong ninja archetype. A ninja that doesn't straight up stab people is going to be in conflict with that existing ninja archetype.

As I've said before, time and time again, it's *possible* to do all kinds of crazy things if you're just looking to do proof of concept, but proof of concept is a far cry from actual practical implementations. It's *possible* to create a ninja tank, but it's not a practical implementation as far as the archetype is actually concerned (this is just one of the many ways that FFXI demonstrated how poorly designed it was). "Ninja as ranged/caster" is *possible* but it operates in contradiction to the established canon concerning the class.

Just because you can come up with a reason for a class to be implemented as a given role/build doesn't mean that it's a good idea or the best feasible implementation for it. There are internally consistent explanations for RDM and NIN to be tank classes, but I can pretty much guarantee you that they're not going to happen because, while they're *feasible*, they're not the most appropriate for the class based upon its historical archetype. The most appropriate build for a ninja, based upon the series' historical archetype is for it to be a fast, light weapon using, sneaky melee with some bonus ranged/magical functionality.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

The most appropriate build for a ninja, based upon the series' historical archetype is for it to be a fast, light weapon using, sneaky melee with some bonus ranged/magical functionality.

---

Sneaky melee fits Thief more than Ninja. The only game Ninja could even stealth in was Tactics and even then it didn't' have a back attack. Thief however does have a backstab attack and stealth in a game and is a far more cunning and sneaky Job than ninja ever was.

We also have a main protagonist, Zidane Tribal of FFIX, who is a Thief, it's not a irrelevant Job that should be written off because Ninja exist. It should be its own Job as it's incredibly iconic and loved by fans. Making it just a class is only going to make fans sad.

If anything they are probably considering making a Thief Job over Ninja first.

Would rather see something like a Rogue or Scout become a Thief/Dancer

Perhaps later an Assassin can become a Samurai/Ninja with a proper region and lore that supports the origin of those Jobs. The Samurai using one Katana as a tank, and the Ninja using two since it has bonuses in past games for using two weapons and being a dps based on quick agile and speedy attacks and ninjutsu rather than stealth. Yoshi did say he can tweak Jobs like Dark Knight to be very much different than the class it comes from if needed, so two Katana's isn't a stretch.

That's all the input I can really give on the topic, it all boils down to opinions at this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

...
I'm not sure how you can say that the possibilities for Ninjutsu are endless because there are some pretty obvious boundaries upon what is actually practical to bring under the descriptor of "ninjutsu", since it's an explicit discipline in real life. You can push the boundaries upon the real world limitations of Ninjutsu by playing upon the mystical themes, such that Ninjutsu actually has access to unique ninja magic, but there are certain points where you're going to have to stop because it just stops looking like what you were originally intending...

---

*pokes* video game. Its just as real as naruto, or the actual fantasy's that naruto draws many of its names from. Its not real. Goemon may have been real, but in pop culture today, his powers are anything but. And in no way am I saying we should tranform into half naked ladies.... unless people are cool with that, then I am too, but they could get pretty creative.

I do agree with your description of ninja. If ninja were going the DD route, an up close light armor heavy STR
attacker, probably with a darkness based attacks/attributes, ninjutsu, and maybe throwing attacks (that dont consume
anything, cause we're past that I hope... *throws relic lance for 9999* "sh!t......")

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calypsx

That's all the input I can really give on the topic, it all boils down to opinions at this point.

---

The only argument that I ever see for THF to be a job instead of a class is the same one you've given here: because people are emotionally attached to the idea of THF being on the same level as all of the other jobs. In practical terms, when you examine the capabilities of a THF in the FF series and its relationship to NIN, if you look at it without being constrained by said emotional attachment (which basically makes any examination pointless because you've already made your decision regardless of what you find), THF doesn't work as a combat job in ARR.

The only reason that THF qualified as a job on par with the others in previous FF games was because "Steal", while being a non-useful combat mechanic (as in, it doesn't actually help you win a fight), provided an explicit indirect advantage in drastically increasing your resources and oftentimes providing you with gear before you would otherwise have access to it. Unless you implement THF as a DoL job wherein it's all about stealing stuff from enemies (since DoL jobs are explicitly designed to actually provide you with additional resources), it's actually a stretch to include THF as a class without adding a bunch of things that have historically been unrelated to THF. Everything else that THF provided has been out-of-combat functionality which, for a combat class, is out of place in an MMO.

Conversely, NIN has *regularly* been combat class that stands on its own (via Throw and the Ninja magic) while virtually always operating as either a direct or indirect upgrade to THF. The direct upgrades are comparatively rare, moreso because of good design than mechanical requirement (in a single player game, you don't want to have one class render another redundant by providing the same capabilities only better; you want there to always be a reason to use an "inferior" class as opposed to just using the uber-classes for everything, generally by affording some degree of utility or secondary benefit). The indirect upgrades are multitudinous: in any game where upper level jobs have prerequisites, Ninja requires Thief (either as the only requirement or as the *main* requirement), and then is provided with stats that are a direct upgrade from what Thief gets. As such, if you were going to go straight for Ninja without bothering with any other jobs along the way and only getting the minimum required, Ninja would only have Thief abilities to utilize, which means that it's an indirect upgrade: it's got better stats, is required to have a goodly portion of Thief but not much of anything else (if at all), and uses most of the same gear.

THF>NIN is, honestly, using a more justifiable version of the logic applied to the design of ARC>BRD. Archer/ranger (which are basically the same class; there are no games that have both Ranger *and* Archer and their trademark capabilities are basically the same/interchangeable; FFTA2 *could* make a case for it with Hunter, but Hunter is a *direct* upgrade of Archer since it gets access to better weapons and a largely similar suite of abilities that are simply more potent) has always been a job on par with THF. While archer turning into bard requires a certain amount of mental acrobatics (strumming a harp is *kind* of like drawing a bowstring...), thief into ninja has historical precedence as well as a much more cohesive logic behind it since they both use much the same fundamental combat archetype.

Small note on the Pilfer/giltoss combo level up.

If the Mug Trait is gained first, you could go Mug -> Gil Toss -> Pilfer.

It's not perfect, but if it's early enough you could get away with a usless mug trait for 1 level until you get the Gil Toss on the next level?

Also, was Quick Stab -> Flurry supposed to be a two shot combo only? I meant to ask that before but I think I got distracted.

Right now, if I'm reading this properly, you have the following combos.

QuickStab -> Flurry
Backstab -> Cheapshot
Backstab -> Ambush -> Eviscerate

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tzain

Small note on the Pilfer/giltoss combo level up.

If the Mug Trait is gained first, you could go Mug -> Gil Toss -> Pilfer.

It's not perfect, but if it's early enough you could get away with a usless mug trait for 1 level until you get the Gil Toss on the next level?

---

Eh, I think I'd rather just have Pilfer and Gil Toss provided at the same time. Based upon the "standard" levels abilities are gained, the earliest traits are at level 8, which is later than I'd want Pilfer/Gil Toss to be provided. The best way would probably be to provide them both sometime between 4-8, and then provide Mug at 16 or 24.

Quote:

---

Also, was Quick Stab -> Flurry supposed to be a two shot combo only? I meant to ask that before but I think I got distracted.

---

Yes, it is. Both Flurry and Cheap Shot are supposed to be t2 combos. Eviscerate is the only t3 combo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

Yes, it is. Both Flurry and Cheap Shot are supposed to be t2 combos. Eviscerate is the only t3 combo.

---

That's a little awkward. Both your potentially best "openers" (Flurry and Ambush) cant be used as openers. You have to throw away either a Quick Stab or a Backstab just to get the buffs up that make them better.

Also, I just noticed that there is no Slow/Stun/Silence to be found on the entire class? (Or am I blind/distracted and just totally missed it)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calypsx

Sneaky melee fits Thief more than Ninja. The only game Ninja could even stealth in was Tactics and even then it didn't' have a back attack. Thief however does have a backstab attack and stealth in a game and is a far more cunning and sneaky Job than ninja ever was.

---

I remember a time when Thief could use stealth and back attacks. Oh wait, that was *once*.

For proofs

Quote:

---

Hide (かくれる, Kakureru?) is a recurring ability usually associated with the Bard class.

---

- Only place this isn't true? Final Fantasy XI where they gave it to Thief

Quote:

---

First Strike (せんせいこうげき, Sensei Kōgeki?) or (さきがけ, Sakigake?), also known as Initiative, Preemptive Strike, Surprise or Hamedo (ハメドる, Hamedoru?),

---

-Pretty much the exact opposite of a back attack in traditional turn base. Who normally gets this skill? Ninja. Where is this not true? Final Fantasy XI and X-2 (where Ninja was not included).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

The only argument that I ever see for THF to be a job instead of a class is the same one you've given here: because people are emotionally attached to the idea of THF being on the same level as all of the other jobs.

---

Doesn't mean it can't be strong in this one, there are games where THF is a good Job.

You know what Job also sucked WORSE than Thief? Scholar in FF3, it's still it's own Job though this time around. Scholar was tweaked to be stronger than it was in the first game it appeared in, no reason Thief can't be. Thief is a more iconic Job in the series than Ninja is. It doesn't matter how "effective" they were, the image of Thief still matters to people. Scholar was my favorite job in FF3 even though it sucked, I enjoyed their costume and I liked the fact that it could use books and double the efficiency of items even though compared to other Jobs it was majorly outclassed. Scholar was useless outside of one minor boss.

Efficiency doesn't matter in an online game where things can be tweaked to be viable. Aesthetics matter to people as well. People are going to eat a job like Dark Knight up because well, it's a Dark Knight.

So don't write off emotional attachment, it's still pretty damn important when it comes to representation. FFIX is a popular game among the fan base as well and it's protagonist is a Thief.

A win win? Make Assassin turn into Samurai/Ninja with it's own expansion that fits the lore and location. While having Rogue/Scout turn into Thief/Dancer. With Ninja/Samurai using Katana's, and Dancer/Thief using Daggers. That way you don't end up pissing off a sizable group of people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

The problem with this is that, in all cases, the Ninja magic and throwing weapons that Ninjas get have always been secondary functionality. The primary damage mechanism of a Ninja has *always* been straight up stabbing people. Building a Ninja class/job around throwing/magic would be like building DRG around *only* jumping or building PLD as a healer role.

---

I see where you're coming from with this, but disagree with it. One of the reasons Scholar could be what it is in XIV is because it really doesn't have a special identity or mechanic that's unique to the job. Dragoons have always been about their special Jump attack and it's not too hard to build a class around their preferred weapon: the polearm, which they did. Paladins have always been pretty tanky and have had the unique Cover ability and it's not too hard to build a class around their iconic sword and board style, which they did.

The Ninja's unique abilities have always been Throw and Ninjutsu, and if you take a bit of liberty with mechanical presentation (seriously, people, Bard isn't that bad), a class that focuses on throwing weapons and a healthy mix of "straight out of Batman's utility belt" abilities seems like a reasonable fit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calypsx

You know what Job also sucked WORSE than Thief? Scholar in FF3, it's still it's own Job though this time around.

---

SCH is its own job in FFXIV not because of the merits of the job historically but because of the need for the game to have a second designated healer. Throughout the entire FF series, there's really only been a single healer job. Some classes have had *minor* healing capability, but it's only ever been a small part of their overall capabilities. SCH was chosen largely because it *didn't* have a strong (or even *cohesive) historical presence so there wasn't anything preventing them from creating something from whole cloth. Scholar wasn't "buffed" to be turned into SCH; SCH was made without any historical input from Scholar whatsoever.

Quote:

---

Thief is a more iconic Job in the series than Ninja is.

---

It depends heavily upon how you define "iconic". If you want to go based off of the number of appearances in mainstream games, Ninja is just as iconic as Thief is: it's in I, III, IV (Edge is a Ninja, not a Thief), V, VI, VII (Yuffie is a Ninja, not a Thief), XI, and all 3 Tactics games (I'm not counting Amarant in IX because he's more of a MNK than a NIN). Thief is in I, III, V, VI, IX, X/X-2, XI, and all 3 Tactics games.

If you want to use some other less quantifiable definition of "iconic", you're once again getting into the realm of making a decision before you even start. The whole "thief is more iconic than ninja" argument gets really old, really fast, especially since there isn't actually all that much support for it.

Quote:

---

A win win? Make Assassin turn into Samurai/Ninja with it's own expansion that fits the lore and location. While having Rogue/Scout turn into Thief/Dancer. With Ninja/Samurai using Katana's, and Dancer/Thief using Daggers. That way you don't end up pissing off a sizable group of people.

---

That would only be a win/win if you only care about getting the jobs, not actually getting the jobs without those jobs sucking or having them adhere to the appropriate model. NIN and SAM should *never* come from the same class: class defines fundamental playstyle and those two classes should *never* use the same fundamental combat style. It doesn't help that SAM should be using heavy armor and literal Katana whereas NIN should be using light armor and Ninja Blades (the split that XI used for Katana and Great Katana was idiotic; it should have been Ninja Blades and Katana, not both being Katana).

The only common link between Samurai and Ninja is that they are Japanese cultural archetypes instead of Western archetypes, and the geographical origin of the archetype is *not* a reasonable method for linking them. They're diametrically opposed in their actual mannerisms/style. It would be like having Knight and Thief be based off of the same class because they're both Western archetypes.

What you're suggesting here isn't a win/win but an "I want Thief to be its own job and I don't care how mutilated Ninja ends up being". There *isn't* a win-win that doesn't break the devs' rule about only bringing in classes/jobs to fill specific niches or obliterate Ninja to assuage the people that love Thief. The devs are basically having to choose between making Thief its own job with Ninja excluded (doing so have it would cover too much of the same ground unless you have to go in a direction so different from what people expect that it's nothing like what they expect) or making Thief the class and Ninja the job.

Keep in mind, there are also people that are emotionally attached to the concept of Ninja. Mutilating their construct just to make sure it doesn't impose upon what THF does is only going to piss *them* off. The emotional argument cuts both ways.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nahara

The Ninja's unique abilities have always been Throw and Ninjutsu, and if you take a bit of liberty with mechanical presentation (seriously, people, Bard isn't that bad), a class that focuses on throwing weapons and a healthy mix of "straight out of Batman's utility belt" abilities seems like a reasonable fit.

---

Your suggestion is more than a "bit of liberty". Ninja has always been a fundamentally melee class (there is a *single* exception: Yuffie in VII), and, honestly, that's what people expect out of it. If you make it into a job where all it does is mimic Naruto (throwing oversized shuriken, for the aesthetic, and casting ninja magic), it's not going to be the FF Ninja, which is what people want.

Like I've said before, just because you *can* come up with a way for THF and NIN to coexist as jobs doesn't mean that it's the best implementation or even a remotely *sensible* implementation. The devs have to play triage with what classes they're adding which means that they're going to have to implement the jobs that fill the most appropriate niches. If you mutilate the Ninja archetype such that it doesn't create redundancies with Thief, it stops being an important niche to fill. Honestly ask yourself what you could see the developers implementing before they got to "DPS built around throwing weapons". Pretty much every *other* class idea you could come up with would take precedence, including Blue Mage which presents all *kinds* of design challenges.

The "win-win" scenarios that people keep coming up with aren't "win-win" because they turn Ninja into a bottom of the barrel class design while giving Thief incredibly import. The devs are *not* going to implement absolutely every job; they're only going to implement the jobs that they think work the best and a NIN that throws and uses some arbitrary magic isn't going to be a job that justifies the work. Think about this: if the developers hadn't developed WAR, do you think they'd be more likely to implement blue mage or warrior first?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

The "win-win" scenarios that people keep coming up with aren't "win-win" because they turn Ninja into a bottom of the barrel class design while giving Thief incredibly import. The devs are *not* going to implement absolutely every job; they're only going to implement the jobs that they think work the best and a NIN that throws and uses some arbitrary magic isn't going to be a job that justifies the work. Think about this: if the developers hadn't developed WAR, do you think they'd be more likely to implement blue mage or warrior first?

---

Bottom of the barrel class design? A unique Job that has traits that isn't seen much in other RPG games is "Bottom of the barrel class design"? What are you going on about, everything he said sounded pretty unique and original to me, while emphasizing the key things that made Ninja unique.

I even suggested it uses Katana's and swords like it's usually seen using instead of Daggers which it rarely uses effectively, how is that mutilation of the Job?

At this point, it makes it seems like any idea's that aren't yours are considered bottom of the barrel class ideas. Your argument isn't fair at all. Don't dismiss others idea's as bottom of the barrel because they don't fit your ideals.

No one is saying they don't want Ninja to exist, they just want it to coexist with Thief while being an original job that follows the abilities it has had in the past.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

Keep in mind, there are also people that are emotionally attached to the concept of Ninja. Mutilating their construct just to make sure it doesn't impose upon what THF does is only going to piss *them* off. The emotional argument cuts both ways.

---

Sorry, this is outright amusing to me. You think a few Ninja idea's and suggestions are "mutilating" the job.

However you outright want to REMOVE the Thief job from ever possibly existing in the game. Guess who's really "mutilating" a job? You.

Your ideals are far more extreme than a suggestion that Ninja uses throwing weapons or use Katana's instead of Daggers. In your ideal world, Ninja will exist, and Thief will not. That sounds far more like a extreme form of "mutilation" towards Thief than anything that has been suggested for Ninja.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calypsx

So you pretty much want to remove Thief because you like Ninja more,

---

No, I think that, if the devs are going to include Ninja, it's going to come at the cost of Thief turning into a class instead of getting to be a job. If the devs decide to *not* include Ninja, I fully expect Thief to be a job in and of itself. Even then, Thief is going to be no more "removed" than Archer is removed, and Archer is a very fundamental archetype and has a strong presence in the game.

Quote:

---

when what I suggested will still make Ninja fight like it always has. With Katana's, Ninjutsu, and agile attacks. While Thieves get to stick to their daggers and stealing based abilities.

---

First off, Ninja has not always been a katana wielding class and, quite often, ends up not using them when there is actually someone who fits the samurai archetype around. When ninja blades and katana can be conflated without issue, ninja ends up using katana, mainly because the term has a more interesting flavor. When you have multiple Asian themed classes, on the other hand, Ninja uses Ninja blades. Let's go over the gear stuffs...

• FFI: Thief uses Daggers and Ninja uses basically everything.
• FFIII: Ninja is the only Asian-themed class and uses daggers as well as katana; katana are Ninja exclusive
• FFIV: Edge is a Ninja that also has Steal and the only other Asian-themed character is a monk; he uses daggers, katana, and, originally, claws
• FFV: has both Ninja and Samurai; Ninja do not use katana and, in fact, use only daggers and short swords; Samurai are the only ones that get katana
• FFVI: Shadow is a Ninja; Cyan is a Samurai; Shadow has access to daggers and ninja daggers, which are unique to him; Cyan gets katana, which are unique to him
• FFVII: Yuffie is a Ninja but only Cloud gets the katana
• FFIX: there isn't a ninja, but Zidane gets to use the only asian-themed weapons, Masamune, but it's a Thief Sword so it's in a weird category all on its own
• FFX: Rikku is the thief/ninja, Auron is the samurai/knight; Auron uses the katana
• FFXI: Ninja and Samurai both exist; "katana" are one handed weapons used in a reverse grip, completely unlike actual katana; "great katana" are actually katana
• FFXII: Ninja Blades and Katana are completely separate weapon categories; Ninja Blades are braces of weapons wielded in reverse grip; Katana are wielded in 2 hands; in the rerelease job system, the "ninja" class uses daggers and ninja blades while the "samurai" class uses katana

Take a serious look at that list. The only time that ninja uses katana is when there isn't a samurai around, and, more often than not, they end up using daggers and ninja blades, which are basically just upgraded daggers. Furthermore, the only times that Ninja gets its own brand of magic is in IV, IX, FFTA, and FFTA2.

If you want to talk about "fighting like it always has", Ninja is going to be about stabbing things in the back with daggers and ninja blades.

Quote:

---

Also Thief is more iconic, it has protagonist that's a thief. Ninja has side characters, but never had a ninja main character. Both are pretty damn iconic, but Zidane is a pretty damn popular character.

---

Your entire description of iconic is based off of a single instance where the thief is the main character. Tidus was a Time Mage, does that mean Time Mage is more iconic than Black Mage, since there are no Black Mage main characters? On top of this, a lot of what makes Zidane a main character diverges *heavily* from the traditional Thief model: he has a cover variant, he isn't even remotely squishy, and he uses weapons that are quite often the strongest around. He actually gets the Ultima Weapon and his penultimate weapon is actually stronger than the ultimate weapons of everyone but Steiner. Zidane doesn't even use an appearance that remotely resembles the traditional thief.

Ninja and Thief are equally iconic, which is where much of the problem stems from.

Quote:

---

I said Ninjas will keep everything they could do in the past, Ninjutsu, Katana's, and throwing weapons. Nothing "Obliterated" by Theif existing and being a sneaky Dagger based stealing job.

---

Except that you're having ninja lose access to daggers and actually stabbing things, which is what it spend a vast majority of its time doing. Having Ninja be built exclusively around throwing and the relatively recent Ninjutsu without making them a highly proficient melee fighter would be like making it so that Thief can *only* Steal things and run away or that Paladin can *only* Cover and use some weak White Magic.

Quote:

---

It doesn't cut both ways, you're just being petty. You don't have to outright remove a Job because you can't think of ways it can be different. Both Thief and Ninja should exist as their own separate jobs.

---

Seriously? You *don't* think that people that are emotionally attached to the FF Ninja tradition would be deeply perturbed if Ninja ended up *only* throwing things and attacking with magic? It *does* cut both ways. People expect certain things about Ninja just like they expect certain things about Thief. The difference is that the expectation of THF is that it should be a job on par with BLM, WHM, WAR, and PLD whereas the expectation of NIN is that it should be the almost-entirely-melee combatant that it has pretty much always been.

Also, bringing Thief in as a class instead of a job isn't "removing it" like you keep repeating to yourself. It's including it in a less important place. If you want to claim that Thief would be "removed", you'd have to also claim that Archer/Ranger isn't represented in ARR.

Quote:

---

The developers have slowly developed Thief and Ninja to be two VERY different jobs over the years, they should take advantage of it, not remove one or the other.

---

Not really... Did you actually go and look at the implementations of the classes or just say it because you see Thief and Ninja in the same games without actually looking at them? Thief and Ninja are only different in FFXI. In every other implementation, they're so similar its almost dumbfounding.

Quote:

---

Oh and btw, no reason Samurai and Ninja can't wear different armor after the job change. Yoshi did say he can change these kind of things if needed, like with Dark Knight.

---

It's not as much about the armor as it is about the combat style (armor is still a factor though). A NIN and a SAM are *not* going to use their attacks in the same way, nor would it make sense for them to share a *vast* majority of their abilities. Seriously, imagine THF and WAR having the same base class: it wouldn't work. The only reason you can come up with for the two to be based off of the same class is because of the shared Japanese origin, which is a painfully flimsy reason.

Also, Yoshi said that they could change the secondary attributes of attacks (e.g. remove the high enmity modifiers from GLA attacks) and insinuated that they could change other attributes about the attacks as well. The difference between SAM and NIN would be so stark that you could just as easily make an entirely new class (which would honestly make more sense).

Do you even *think* about your "compromises" or simply assume that, as long as you get THF as a job, it doesn't matter how absurd the implementation for anything else would be?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calypsx

Bottom of the barrel class design?

---

Yes, bottom of the barrel class design. Just because it's inventive or unique doesn't mean that it's something that it's an idea that should be implemented before others. A class/job built almost entirely around throwing weapons is *not* something that will get developed before a magic/melee hybrid, a dark knight, a sneaky rogue type, a naturalist DPS, a beastmaster, a gunslinger, etc. There are a whole *slew* of other archetypes and class constructs that are in greater demand and draw more interest than "I throw stuffs!". Even if it's a "ninja", it's not an implementation of ninja that would be implemented before a crapton of other possibilities were already exhausted.

The only way that you could *possibly* see your "compromise" of a ninja as an implementation as likely to occur as the standard thief mold is if you're in a fantasy land where class development requires no effort and they're simply throw together on a whim.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calypsx

You think a few Ninja idea's and suggestions are "mutilating" the job.

---

No, I think that focusing exclusively upon a few secondary aspects of the ninja in order to prevent ninja from overlapping with thief is mutilating the job. Ninja has never been all about throwing stuff. Yes, it has had throwing stuff as its class gimmick, but "throwing" isn't its central combat style. Its central combat style is normal melee combat using light weapons. It's "mutilating" ninja because you're amputating 90% of what the class is about and acting as if that remaining 10% is enough to assuage people that like Ninja and convince them that it's the same class that they like so much.

Quote:

---

However you outright want to REMOVE the Thief job from ever possibly existing in the game. Guess who's really "mutilating" a job? You.

---

Seriously, you keep harping on this and it's just getting asinine. Implementing THF as a class is not removing it. It's implementing it in a position that isn't as eminent as you want it to be, which is what perturbs you. You don't want THF to be implemented; you want THF to be implemented *while having it be exactly as important as all of the other jobs*, which is not the same thing. The devs have already shown that they're willing to subsume one important archetype under the mantle of another. According to you, ARC was removed from the game. Apparently, it no longer exists even if it's still there but has the trappings of a BRD on top of it. ARC still shines through, but, according to you, it doesn't matter because you don't see that name there all the time once you've reached level 30.

You're right, this is getting ridiculous.

If that's what you wish to believe should happen then, fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Calypsx

I'm pretty damn sure Thief in Tactics is FAR different from Ninja, when it comes to weapons and playstyle.

---

Did you actually *play* Tactics at all? No one in their right mind would actually have Ninja focus on ranged attacking via throwing. Ninja and Thief were the super fast, kinda squishy attackers (when Thief wasn't trying to yank a rare weapon/armor off of a target so that your team could use it). Ninja was an *upgraded* Thief, for combat purposes. Even when it used incredibly weak weapons, Ninja provided dual wield, which turned them into melee damage *superstars*. As such, even though they were using the exact same gear as a Thief, they'd be better. You'd be an idiot to rely upon or even focus upon using a Ninja as a ranged attacker. Throw was really just there as a throwaway (pun intended) that would allow them to have some kind of ranged functionality, even if it came at an incredibly high cost.

Quote:

---

Also Zidane hardly plays like a Ninja.

---

Zidane doesn't play like a Thief either, with the exception of Steal. He's got stats that are more easily likened to a Warrior than a Thief and, when he's not using Steal, he's throwing out craptons of damage with standard attacks.

Quote:

---

Also please post a video or an instance where I can see a Ninja stabbing something. Please, I'm curious to see that "stabbing" gameplay they are oh so based around. I see them "slash" with swords, not stab, they don't use Daggers.

---

You're getting *really* literal. "Stab" is, for all intents and purposes, the exact same as "attack". It's an affectation of mine where I describe any melee attack (and even some magical attacks) as "stabbing". Hell, most of the daggers actually show them as slashing instead of stabbing. Getting hung up on the verb I described for how ninjas attack is just getting semantically obtuse given that the point I was making when I was talking about stabbing was that Ninjas deal a *vast* majority of their damage through melee attacks using light weapons, just like Thieves. The fact that I chose to say "stab" instead of "cut", "slash", or "attack" has any bearing upon what we're discussing.

Quote:

---

Here, i'll post one first, we can switch off

---

Congratulations, you can cherry pick data. Good job.

Just to show you how ludicrous your semantic anal-retentiveness is here is a video of thieves in Tactics slashing, here is a video that shows Zidane slashing with his daggers, as opposed to stabbing with them. Can we move on from this because, seriously, it's just a pointless deviation from the discussion.

Now, if you want to talk about the length of a slashing weapon in an artistic setting and how that affects its categorization as a sword or dagger, check out this...

http://theworldissquare.com/wp-conte...2012/03/r6.jpg

Zidane's "daggers" are half as tall as he is.

http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__.../FFT_Thief.jpg

Those FFT Thieves are using "daggers" that are more than one-third of their total height.

http://static4.wikia.nocookie.net/__...idane_FFIX.png

Oh, hey, it's another one of Zidane using a "dagger" that's easily long enough to be a sword.

Now, on to Ninja.

http://static1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...Ff6_shadow.jpg

That's Shadow, and he's got a dagger at his hip and in hand, not a sword, and it's a tiny one at that.

The entire point of all of this is that it doesn't matter what length of bladed-implement artists arbitrarily elect to show a class/character using. They're not going to pick the one that actually corresponds to the weapon in game; they're going to go with whatever they think looks good. The FFT ninjas are going to be drawn with katanas even if the ninja blades that are in game are only slightly longer than daggers, which are themselves grossly oversized because the aesthetics of game combat emphasize exaggeration and flamboyance, neither of which are really possible with small weapons.

Quote:

---

"Ninjas are characterized by wearing cowls that cover their mouths and head, and lightweight armor. Their weapons include ninja blades, katana, and throwing weapons. "

I still don't see these daggers that they are supposedly meant to use.

---

So you just didn't pay any attention at all to the list where I went over every game's relative implementations of the weapon categories. A summary isn't going to trump actually going through and looking at everything.

Quote:

---

They can sometimes use Daggers, but guess what their most effective weapons are? Swords.

---

They can *always* use Daggers, and a katana and a ninja blade are neither the same thing nor are ninja blades swords. If you actually look at how the ninja blades operate and are wielded, they're beefed up daggers (in games where daggers use speed as part of the damage calculation so do ninja blades, but katana and other swords do not). The only difference between "ninja blade" and "dagger" is that the former is just an upgraded category of the latter, much like "katana" compares to "sword" or the higher level magics (Fire III, Meteo, Ultima) compare to the lower level ones (Fire) in a vast majority of the games.

Quote:

---

I'm trying to make this work and keep them both in the game, while your trying to write off Thief entirely.

---

You're trying to do whatever you can to Ninja to prevent the exclusion of Thief as a job. I'm simply admitting that whatever you could do to Ninja to make it operate in a drastically different fashion from Thief would render Ninja into something unlike what people expect and, therefore, think that Thief should be implemented in game as a *class*, rather than a job.

I have not, nor have I ever, said that Thief should never be in game. The only way that you could interpret me as saying that is if you read "class" as "not implemented", which, as I've said before, means that we don't have Archers, apparently.

In theory, Thief and Ninja could be different classes but in majority of the games Thief's only useful attribute is Steal. As it has pretty much always been a weak Ninja.

On a personal level, if they nerfed Ninja to make Thief less weak, I'd be pissed.

From the point of Class into class in final fantasy history, the most iconic thing I can think of regarding a thief is that they almost always are the prerequisite to become a Ninja. In the Tactics games you needed thief to become a Ninja, and in 1 and 3 the Ninja always seems to be compared to the thief since they share similar stat priorities. The ninja is usually refereed to as the advancement of the Thief and the thief is usually an under powered Ninja.

Their most iconic battle prowess, while usually its their signature abilities...which could pose little to no advantage on FF14, their most redeeming battle capacity is in their stats. Both are the two fastest characters and both have high evasion rates.

I don't really see Thief being a Job. Though there seems to be a hive mind mentality that the Classes are completely useless once you get a Job, a Job itself is nothing without the original base class it expanded on. I can see Thief becoming the base class and still holding its normal status without the need to short change its possible job the Ninja. Ninja won't be much without the Thief Class there as its base.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by XanderOlivieri

I don't really see Thief being a Job. Though there seems to be a hive mind mentality that the Classes are completely useless once you get a Job, a Job itself is nothing without the original base class it expanded on. I can see Thief becoming the base class and still holding its normal status without the need to short change its possible job the Ninja. Ninja won't be much without the Thief Class there as its base.

---

Classes are considered "useless" because the jobs that augment them make running as the class pointless. A Gladiator will never be as good a tank as a Paladin, nor will a Conjurer ever be able to match the power of a White Mage. You're never going to invite a Lancer or Arcanist into your coil run, because Dragoons and Summoners are just flat-out better. I don't want to be forced into playing a Ninja if I ever want to do anything serious. I want to play a Thief.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exstal

On a personal level, if they nerfed Ninja to make Thief less weak, I'd be pissed.

---

Hi, Exstal! I miss your random Japanese on LFG on Aion.

But anyway, I agree. I don't see a way they could have both jobs in the game without turning ninja into something unrecognizable just like it was on FFXI. Evasion tank with that jank elemental wheel... no, thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nahara

Classes are considered "useless" because the jobs that augment them make running as the class pointless. A Gladiator will never be as good a tank as a Paladin, nor will a Conjurer ever be able to match the power of a White Mage. You're never going to invite a Lancer or Arcanist into your coil run, because Dragoons and Summoners are just flat-out better. I don't want to be forced into playing a Ninja if I ever want to do anything serious. I want to play a Thief.

---

I get your concern with that, but jobs do little more than add 5 new skills, boost your stats a bit, and severely limit your ability to cross-class. A bard is still primarily an archer with a few buffs tacked on. Dragoon is still a lancer but with some jumps thrown in. Ninja would still be a thief, but with a few ninja abilities added into the mix for flavor.

The only reason I'd really dislike having THF become dancer/ninja is because I would love to have an AF set for it like in FFXI. Anyway, we'll just have to wait and see what SE actually has in store for us with future classes and jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aethaeryn

Hi, Exstal! I miss your random Japanese on LFG on Aion.

---

It used to work on /3 because people on Aion would lose their minds. Doesn't work here though..people are somehow more tame (maybe because Japanese is an officially recognized language).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exstal

It used to work on /3 because people on Aion would lose their minds. Doesn't work here though..people are somehow more tame (maybe because Japanese is an officially recognized language).

---

I usually replied in Japanese. :P (Wintermoon/Selenay/Lukien/Akinori... you probably don't remember me lol filthy carebear casual etc.)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aethaeryn

I get your concern with that, but jobs do little more than add 5 new skills, boost your stats a bit, and severely limit your ability to cross-class.

---

The new abilities and the bonus stats heavily outweigh the loss of some cross-class abilities. The bonus MND provided by the WHM soul crystal, Divine Seal, Regen, and Benediction (plus all the WHM exclusive gear) provide a huge jump in power over the base Conjurer that no amount of cross-class abilities can match.

So yeah, you could say that a NIN is still a THF but with a few new tricks, but I don't want to be a NIN. I don't want to be forced to be a NIN in order to do serious content. I want to be a THF. I want to have a THF soul crystal, and THF relic weapons and artifact armor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nahara

The new abilities and the bonus stats heavily outweigh the loss of some cross-class abilities.

So yeah, you could say that a NIN is still a THF but with a few new tricks, but I don't want to be a NIN. I don't want to be forced to be a NIN in order to do serious content. I want to be a THF. I want to have a THF soul crystal, and THF relic weapons and artifact armor.

---

They definitely didn't always heavily outweigh the use of cross-class abilities. BLM, for example, has some super situational job skills that don't even really define the job at all. Flare is great for aoe, freeze is crap, convert's cooldown is too high and unnecessary for anything other than double flare, manawall has almost no situational use outside of dungeon grinding (tonberry in WP?), and don't even get me started on apocatastasis. Part of the nerf on summoners was made because ACN was ridiculously strong with allagan book and NOT using summoner's soul crystal. MRD can put out consistently much better dps than WAR. The gap is smaller since 2.1 nerfed bfb and internal release for cross-classing, but it still exists.

Regardless, my point was that it's still the same class, but becomes further specialized when you equip your soul crystal. I get that it ruins your immersion, and I'm sure you wouldn't be alone in feeling that way. I also really love your ideas for your post for a Performer class and THF/DNC. But what about ninja? Maybe they'll just never add it, but if they do add thief with similar bells and whistles to what you have in mind, what could they do with ninja without completely butchering its essence the way FFXI did? Before FFXI, thief mostly just came with the ability to use Steal/Mug. What could you do to set apart the abilities of both THF and NIN to make them both viable and not a rehash of the same mechanics? I don't think anyone wants more positional crap for future jobs the way DRG and MNK are already set up because they're unbelievably frustrating on a large number of encounters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aethaeryn

I usually replied in Japanese. :P (Wintermoon/Selenay/Lukien/Akinori... you probably don't remember me lol filthy carebear casual etc.)

---

When I hit Great General, I was a filthy carebear casual..but when push came to shove, Assassin melts all (Except for Zikel's Shield).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aethaeryn

Regardless, my point was that it's still the same class, but becomes further specialized when you equip your soul crystal. I get that it ruins your immersion, and I'm sure you wouldn't be alone in feeling that way. I also really love your ideas for your post for a Performer class and THF/DNC. But what about ninja? Maybe they'll just never add it, but if they do add thief with similar bells and whistles to what you have in mind, what could they do with ninja without completely butchering its essence the way FFXI did? Before FFXI, thief mostly just came with the ability to use Steal/Mug. What could you do to set apart the abilities of both THF and NIN to make them both viable and not a rehash of the same mechanics? I don't think anyone wants more positional crap for future jobs the way DRG and MNK are already set up because they're unbelievably frustrating on a large number of encounters.

---

If melee doesn't have a positional requirement, you can expect all current melee to give up what they have and switch to that. Screw being on flank or behind for half your attacks. Attack from front! I'd much rather they butchered Thief (since all they have going for them was steal anyway) and make Ninja good (since it is historically better than Thief).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Exstal

When I hit Great General, I was a filthy carebear casual..but when push came to shove, Assassin melts all (Except for Zikel's Shield).

If melee doesn't have a positional requirement, you can expect all current melee to give up what they have and switch to that. Screw being on flank or behind for half your attacks. Attack from front! I'd much rather they butchered Thief (since all they have going for them was steal anyway) and make Ninja good (since it is historically better than Thief).

---

I never made it higher than 1-star officer. :P But then I made new characters like once a month and quit repeatedly over a 3-year period. I was getting super into the game with 4.0 until FFXIV hit.

And yeah, I know, but the positional stuff is so stupid and irritating. :( Especially on monk, which I spend a great deal of time playing now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aethaeryn

...

---

I'd like to think what'd really set NIN apart from THF is Ninjutsu, the NIN's exclusive "magic" school. I mentioned previously that one angle you could take it was a kind of "Batman's Utility Belt", using ninja tools (thematically) to get the edge over their opponents, like smoke bombs or poisons, or maybe also having the ninja's elemental wheel from XI (which I thought was a fun mechanic). I don't even pretend to be a good game designer, so I don't know if I could come up with something even remotely close to a balanced class based on it, but the actual XIV devs are people that are paid to do these kinds of things and could do it in a way that's true to the flavor of the NIN without being "just a better THF".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nahara

I'd like to think what'd really set NIN apart from THF is Ninjutsu, the NIN's exclusive "magic" school. I mentioned previously that one angle you could take it was a kind of "Batman's Utility Belt", using ninja tools (thematically) to get the edge over their opponents, like smoke bombs or poisons, or maybe also having the ninja's elemental wheel from XI (which I thought was a fun mechanic). I don't even pretend to be a good game designer, so I don't know if I could come up with something even remotely close to a balanced class based on it, but the actual XIV devs are people that are paid to do these kinds of things and could do it in a way that's true to the flavor of the NIN without being "just a better THF".

---

They could give them traits that reduce the cd's and increase the potency of food and potions, that way they can save iconic abilities for the skills. They could even have poiton/tools only usable by ninja.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eohi

They could give them traits that reduce the cd's and increase the potency of food and potions, that way they can save iconic abilities for the skills. They could even have poiton/tools only usable by ninja.

---

No class will ever use a consumable item resource in order to perform it's job. SE specifically removed the arrow market because they didn't want an entire class's worth tied to something you could legitimately run out of in the middle of a fight, thus making you useless.

When I say that NIN could have abilities that use ninja tools to replicate spell effects, I don't mean they should have actual items in their inventory that get consumed in order to use said ability. The tools are entirely thematic, shown in the ability icons and in the animations, with their only cost being TP.

In reality Thief is a Tier 1 job, Ninja is a Tier 2 job. That's pretty much how it's always been.

I meant that ninja's could make heightened use out of the potions/items we do have instead of instead of adding actual spells. Items we already have don't get enough use and it would make more sense for ninja to have its token ability to throw items/weapons a trait as its never been a spell caster perse and having abilities for tools would be weird considering we already have "tools" that don't get used much.

As as the main focus of ninja has never really been tools it would make sense to give it a trait to maximize use of what tools we do have (potion/debuff potions/etc). That way we could save more abilities for swordplay and ninjutsu as ninja as a class is really all over the place and it would be difficult to accurately capture that without getting creative.

It wouldn't revolve around consumables because, it would just be a way to squeeze more potential out of an incredibly versatile job

But you are still making items mandatory for job abilities. And the dev's have decided that won't be course they are taking.

That leaves the only other conclusion to your post. That NIN would get better timers on potions, which would be game breaking and make NIN the only melee that would ever be taken into group content.