Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Tell me more about double standards again.

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SURE! PICK ME I'LL DO IT!

Let's take RDM and WHM for a moment if you please!

WHM don't get the start of their lilies, so their job gauge (Afflatus Solace) until 53, part way into Heavensward. They don't get the other parts until Shadowbringers (Afflatus Rapture, their aoe lily heal and Afflatus Misery, what their lilies are supposed to build up to).

Now correct me if I am wrong but, RDM until EW did not have 2 charges of Corps-a-Corps and Displacement until SB or Shb and they MOST CERTAINLY DID NOT HAVE ENGAGEMENT AT LV40. But that got changed!

OOH OOH! AS EXTRA CREDIT CAN I ADD DARK KNIGHT?

They don't get the second half of their 1-2 aoe combo like the other tanks until SEVENTY FRICKIN FOUR (lv74)

So, they'll make retroactive changes to RDM (a dps) and not DRK or WHM (tank/healer respectively). LOOKS LIKE FAVORITISM TO ME! And even if it wasn't, its still a major oversight that should have been fixed.

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Originally Posted by Karneios

How they design dungeons is a different conversation than what this thread is in theory for, I'm personally fine with the difficulty considering daily runs with roulettes and lol blatant favoritism, mch got a numbers boost announcement with no specifics so who can say how significant it is, sam got a damage variance improvement with a skill removal for "button bloat" that I haven't seen people exactly cheering on considering there were other more useless buttons they could've removed and nin got maybe a small buff depends what the actual numbers for the mug and trick changes are

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Except they explictly said they werent doing any drastic changes to healers since it was too close to ultimat....yet thyere fine making drastic changes to dps jobs? Yeah no sorry, its just more stalling being done by Yoshi p because he has no idea wtf hes doing in regards to healers(and other things if we look at the latest hrothgar controversy." We've been told for 6+ years to just wait, wait till this patch, wait till this expansion, and theyve done nothing. Only have made things worse.

"Go play Ultimate" but first let us change all of healers and multiple dps to the point where the class will play completely different weeks before we release our hardest content.

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Originally Posted by Karneios

You do realise that interview line wasn't removed from overall healer balance, it was healer changed out for specifically dungeon balance, the content they have made clear for a long time they want to be pretty easy that even real bad people can clear

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And how do you know they don't apply the same to testing and balance in other areas? We know for a fact that Ultimates are tested by random devs because they admitted that too. The reason Ultimate was delayed was because those random devs were busy with their respective jobs and couldn't fit in time for Ultimate on the side. It's very likely the same is applied to EX, Savage, Alliance and so on.

Ensuring bad players can clear is fine but if you're selling a product it should be QA tested by experienced and qualified professionals for intricate flaws and details, then the polished product handed over to an average consumer to test and see if they like it.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

So then why is Yoshi P a tester on there. He’s an orange parsing blm. By his logic he’s too good at his job and he should get someone newer.

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Even there, Yoshida is a BLM. He's not an orange parsing healer or tank or even plays a wide range of dps at a high level. He's a BLM main. And it shows, BLM is probably the best designed job in the game while SAM is getting darts at the dartboard changes. I honestly wonder if the person who first designed a class even gets a say in these tweaks or reworks.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I honestly wonder if the person who first designed a class even gets a say in these tweaks or reworks.

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Pretty sure the answer is a resounding "no" if the current state of AST, MCH, and DRK mean anything.

Might as well add if you want more engaging jobs play somthing else

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Except they explictly said they werent doing any drastic changes to healers since it was too close to ultimat....yet thyere fine making drastic changes to dps jobs? Yeah no sorry, its just more stalling being done by Yoshi p because he has no idea wtf hes doing in regards to healers(and other things if we look at the latest hrothgar controversy." We've been told for 6+ years to just wait, wait till this patch, wait till this expansion, and theyve done nothing. Only have made things worse.

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If this doesn't show people the blatant double standard between healers and other jobs I don't know what to say.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

Except they explictly said they werent doing any drastic changes to healers since it was too close to ultimat....yet thyere fine making drastic changes to dps jobs? Yeah no sorry, its just more stalling being done by Yoshi p because he has no idea wtf hes doing in regards to healers(and other things if we look at the latest hrothgar controversy." We've been told for 6+ years to just wait, wait till this patch, wait till this expansion, and theyve done nothing. Only have made things worse.

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Also he has stated time again that they are more comfortable with SHb style of changes based on playability and feedback. Which is adjustment to numbers (potencies, effects) rather than drastic changes.

Some White Mages in my opinion had unrealistic expectations like they were getting an overhaul or something. If anything they help the casual and party finder base more with MP economy and yalms adjustments. It's way easier to tell a static group to haul their butts under Phoinix for Cure III heal, versus some PF prog after they wipe to it. MP economy makes sense because amount of errors that a PuG group makes over a static's playstyle is objectively higher.

Although he did call out DRG and AST probably being eyeballed further for 6.2, just it's still in discussion. Probably more so on controller-bloat that they keep mentioning.

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Originally Posted by technole

Some White Mages in my opinion had unrealistic expectations like they were getting an overhaul or something. If anything they help the casual and party finder base more with MP economy and yalms adjustments. It's way easier to tell a static group to haul their butts under Phoinix for Cure III heal, versus some PF prog after they wipe to it. MP economy makes sense because amount of errors that a PuG group makes over a static's playstyle is objectively higher.

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Fixing an absolute disaster of design shoudn't be "unrealistic expectations", some of you start to sound like bf2042 devs and we know how that game turned out

The worst part, with just numerical changes they could have fixed whm gameplay far more than any of the announced changes will ever dream to do. Just increase misery potency to be more than 1240. You'd have all the lillies as dps neutral heals, misery as a dps gain and due to using 3 lilies+misery becomes optimal for max dps then whm has lower mp consumptions, if they feel like working for more than 2s on a healer they could also make lilies/misery generate 5% mp and whm woudnt have more mp problems...but I guess expecting the devs to make the ONLY job mechanic of whm something desirable is an unrealistic expectation, much better adjust cure 3, which whm rarely use due to high mp consumption and oportunity cost and make lillybell a shitty version of Ast's earthly star with 3 times the cd

DPS:
Get massively overhauled every expansion so that it's always something fresh, for better or worse. Several jobs have core features that never really get removed, allowing the lucky few who play those jobs to stick with what they know.

Tanks:
Everyone except DRK mains generally get what we want. PLD and GNB have also only ever gotten more skills added on, with no major overhauls that significantly impact the quality of the job. Tank gameplay (the role itself, not individual jobs) is the best its ever been, lacking unintuitive mechanics or mechanics that only exist if you have the wrong party comp.

Healers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt78s-GXn5U

Really want my astro fixed, having to abandon it as main and now resolved to simply swap to DPS role for future savage tiers is depressing. When Yoshi P said to look to ultimate for engaging content my heart just sank and I was so disappointed it was the nail in the coffin for me as a healer. Would sooner quit the game entirely than carry on healing in the current state it is in, esp for astro my fave healer.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Tell me more about double standards again.

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Sure! Remember when 5.0 RDM was going OoM in around 6 or 7 minutes even while popping Lucid Dreaming? Remember how that shit got fixed in Patch 5.05 with MP cost reductions on literally every single one of their target Spells? Can't have a DPS going OoM, no sirree. What's that, WHM? You also got MP issues spamming Glare? Well sit the fuck down, you're a Healer so we're gonna pretend your MP problems don't exist. No MP changes in 6.05 or 6.08 because we totally read the Forums and people aren't complaining about it at all, and be glad we're reducing the MP cost of fucking Regen of all things.

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Originally Posted by Beddict

Sure! Remember when 5.0 RDM was going OoM in around 6 or 7 minutes even while popping Lucid Dreaming? Remember how that shit got fixed in Patch 5.05 with MP cost reductions on literally every single one of their target Spells? Can't have a DPS going OoM, no sirree. What's that, WHM? You also got MP issues spamming Glare? Well sit the fuck down, you're a Healer so we're gonna pretend your MP problems don't exist. No MP changes in 6.05 or 6.08 because we totally read the Forums and people aren't complaining about it at all, and be glad we're reducing the MP cost of fucking Regen of all things.

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Plus one to that as AST didn't get their mp problems fixed until 5.3.

So I know this sounds way too optimistic but who we are gonna some bandaid fixes to whm mp in like patch 6.15 or 6.18 if regen was the only thing that they made cheaper?

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

So I know this sounds way too optimistic but who we are gonna some bandaid fixes to whm mp in like patch 6.15 or 6.18 if regen was the only thing that they made cheaper?

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You put too much faith in them lol. They're probably going to lower mp of ast for some reason or sch cause they spam adlo.

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Originally Posted by Acece

You put too much faith in them lol. They're probably going to lower mp of ast for some reason or sch cause they spam adlo.

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im surprised that u expect them to even bother touching their mp to improve their gameplay.
you are much more optimistic then me, i expect them to ruin mp for them both to bring them to whm levels cause if anything else is offered to benefit healers in any way i see yoshi p throwing that person from the window instead.

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Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

im surprised that u expect them to even bother touching their mp to improve their gameplay.
you are much more optimistic then me, i expect them to ruin mp for them both to bring them to whm levels cause if anything else is offered to benefit healers in any way i see yoshi p throwing that person from the window instead.

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I mean, this wouldn't really accomplish anything. Healers will just take enough Piety until they can go right back to nuke spamming.

So here was something that was said over on the japanese side of the forums.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post5875538

It's starting to get to a point to where even a growing number of their players are just asking for something to do during downtime or something to make healer attacks more interesting and fun.

If anything and unfortunately… a lot of the Japanese players seem to not only think healears are fine but even fun based on the top liked comments from that thread… I think I will stick to being a crafter and gatherers main at this point lol

Just want to state my strong support in this thread, I've been a healer since Heavensward and it hasn't always been like this. As long as I queue into a WAR or PLD, I can clear any dungeon in the game without pressing a single healing button. Not even one. Why have a healer role at all if no healing is needed, why not just make it a tank and three DPS? Either they need to give healers more DPS buttons for downtime, or they need to increase damage in normal content so that healing is needed, one of the two. Otherwise, currently, all healers do in content is press their aoe button over and over and over and over and over and over. You might as well just have an NPC run with the group to provide heals if needed at that point. But most of all if possible I just want to have a reason to press my healing buttons in content where I don't have to spend 20 minutes memorizing a guide with insanely complicated strategies with a coordinated group. But I don't anymore unless it's a really new first time group. Please just give us healers this one consolation of more DPS buttons. Otherwise I no longer have anything to look forward to when my friends ask me to give them fast queues for roulettes. They used to be fun, now I just spend an hour or two pressing one button like I'm a bot. Who finds it fun to just press one button over and over? :/

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Originally Posted by AlexionSkyllark

HEALING as a healer should be engaging, not DPSing. it's already bad enough that the devs caved in to the whiners and normalized Healer DPS. What they should adjust the gameplay to is making players having to heal more and DPS less. More unpredictable damage, less healing downtimes, more hostile dmg output across the board.

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A lot of people didn't like this take but I think you're totally on the right track, we became HEALers for a reason. The problem is, in my eyes, there's two options going forward: Either give us healers more DPS abilities, or give us a reason to actually use our healing abilities (more outgoing damage).

Doing neither leaves us in an absolutely unacceptable state where healers do neither: 70-90% of any content I don't have to look up guides for consists of dodging AoEs and pressing my one, single AoE button over and over like a bot, even doing roulettes with total randoms. I'm perfectly happy with either, extremely happy with both. But doing neither outright makes healer as a role a horrible experience to play, and totally invalidates its reason to even exist.

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

If anything and unfortunately… a lot of the Japanese players seem to not only think healears are fine but even fun based on the top liked comments from that thread… I think I will stick to being a crafter and gatherers main at this point lol

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Isn't the top liked comment saying that it would be fine incrementing the means of attack and diferentianting the healers?

tbh one of the things that surprised me the most is that a lot of the ones who are going with the whole "healers are fine, they should heal" aren't main healers... in fact in that whole thread I only counted 5 people who had a healer under main class

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Originally Posted by Soxxx

A lot of people didn't like this take but I think you're totally on the right track, we became HEALers for a reason. The problem is, in my eyes, there's two options going forward: Either give us healers more DPS abilities, or give us a reason to actually use our healing abilities (more outgoing damage).

Doing neither leaves us in an absolutely unacceptable state where healers do neither: 70-90% of any content I don't have to look up guides for consists of dodging AoEs and pressing my one, single AoE button over and over like a bot, even doing roulettes with total randoms. I'm perfectly happy with either, extremely happy with both. But doing neither outright makes healer as a role a horrible experience to play, and totally invalidates its reason to even exist.

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It's not that people didn't like Alexion's take, it's just a pointless endeavour to ask for more healing, it is never gonna happen.
The devs have said time and time again that they won't increase the general healing requirement, so most people don't see a point in even trying anymore.

But let's entertain the idea for a second, let's assume they DO increase the healing requirement.

In what content, all of it? Never gonna happen. You already have players who can't outheal the damage of a wet paper bag in dungeons, so obviously SE isn't going to alienate those players by suddenly requiring them to actually, you know, heal properly.

So that leaves you with only Savage and Ultimate, something that doesn't even make up 10% of the game's content. On top of that savage is always going to become easier the more you progress in any given raid tier as everyone in your team acquires better gear, giving you less to heal once again.

And this is the big problem with "giving you more to heal", it is heavily reliant on the content itself and your itemlevel compared to the minimum requirement.

Whereas more interesting dps options are reliant on nothing else but your ability to press buttons.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

Isn't the top liked comment saying that it would be fine incrementing the means of attack and diferentianting the healers?

tbh one of the things that surprised me the most is that a lot of the ones who are going with the whole "healers are fine, they should heal" aren't main healers... in fact in that whole thread I only counted 5 people who had a healer under main class

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Yeah I noticed that too, granted with all the rough translations, it just seemed like there was a lot of push back underneath all the “get off my lawn” (go back to English forum energy) comments. I’m not ignoring the other comments that at least started to discuss things on what would happen if they add more DPS abilities or interesting heal abilities. It’s just I have to acknowledge the huge difference between us and them for healers. There’s obviously a lot more people over there ok with it. So much so, those who try to argue or even discuss have a lot more, “meh, what’s the problem” type responses vs over here. We get like sprinkle of those types of comments compared to on the JP side.

Not that we should suddenly be silent but we all can see an even stronger reason as to why Yoshi is so reluctant to change even one healer into what we want. Sadly…

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Originally Posted by AngeliouxRein

Yeah I noticed that too, granted with all the rough translations, it just seemed like there was a lot of push back underneath all the “get off my lawn” (go back to English forum energy) comments. I’m not ignoring the other comments that at least started to discuss things on what would happen if they add more DPS abilities or interesting heal abilities. It’s just I have to acknowledge the huge difference between us and them for healers. There’s obviously a lot more people over there ok with it. So much so, those who try to argue or even discuss have a lot more, “meh, what’s the problem” type responses vs over here. We get like sprinkle of those types of comments compared to on the JP side.

Not that we should suddenly be silent but we all can see an even stronger reason as to why Yoshi is so reluctant to change even one healer into what we want. Sadly…

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Are there rules against posting NA(English) threads in the JP(Japanese) forums? Because it sounds to me like everyone should just be posting in JP if they want any attention.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Are there rules against posting NA(English) threads in the JP(Japanese) forums? Because it sounds to me like everyone should just be posting in JP if they want any attention.

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Honestly..I'm not even sure. I only heard from others that if you post like an English thread in JP that it will get moved or deleted. That can be said vice versa. As to people commenting on other threads in their own language, I think the mods might treat those comments the same and just delete them . Otherwise, it seems like, as long as you at least type your comment in their language you're fine. Some of the people from this thread has been typing/translating their comments in Japanese and seem to be alright. The better way to do it is to start it off in Japanese and then include English translation in there if you feel it will help get the point across.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

In what content, all of it? Never gonna happen. You already have players who can't outheal the damage of a wet paper bag in dungeons, so obviously SE isn't going to alienate those players by suddenly requiring them to actually, you know, heal properly.

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Let me put it this way, I think the most blatant example of the Devs not trusting the ability of the playerbase is the Paglth'an final boss Lunar Bahamut.

This is supposed to be the final dungeon of the ShB expansion when the stakes are supposed to be the highest and that boss literally hits like a wet noodle. Nothing takes more than 20% of a party's HP. The "tank buster"? Doesn't even come until 5 min into the fight, if you see it you know you have poor dps.

AND IT BARELY EVEN HURTS A MIN ILVL TANK.

That's the kind of stuff people want in dungeons when they say they want more to heal. Make the AoE's hurt a bit because they're spread out. Make tank busters hurt so tanks LEARN to mitigate properly. Dungeons are supposed to be teaching tools, the places you can implement new mechanics with low stakes on learning. If you fail a dungeon mechanic you can quickly get back and try again. Right now, they're snoozefests.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

Resurrect 60 people in a single alliance raid, individually healing every tank in each party.

Carry the entire group to the win, get 0 commendations because I left my dead weight co-healer on the ground after I gave them my swift while I prioritized reviving an entire alliance.

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Painful story but you took it well, at least

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Originally Posted by Soxxx

A lot of people didn't like this take but I think you're totally on the right track, we became HEALers for a reason. The problem is, in my eyes, there's two options going forward: Either give us healers more DPS abilities, or give us a reason to actually use our healing abilities (more outgoing damage).

Doing neither leaves us in an absolutely unacceptable state where healers do neither: 70-90% of any content I don't have to look up guides for consists of dodging AoEs and pressing my one, single AoE button over and over like a bot, even doing roulettes with total randoms. I'm perfectly happy with either, extremely happy with both. But doing neither outright makes healer as a role a horrible experience to play, and totally invalidates its reason to even exist.

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People didn’t like the take because the poster blamed the playerbase (or “the whiners” as they called us) for the current state of healers, rather than taking a bit of time to review the history of healing in this game and realize that it was the developers that made us all into gimped damage dealers. It didn’t really have anything to do with asking for healers to be able to heal more (which we have already continuously asked for for the last several years), and everything to do with them vilifying those evil green DPSers.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

It's not that people didn't like Alexion's take, it's just a pointless endeavour to ask for more healing, it is never gonna happen.
The devs have said time and time again that they won't increase the general healing requirement, so most people don't see a point in even trying anymore.

But let's entertain the idea for a second, let's assume they DO increase the healing requirement.

In what content, all of it? Never gonna happen. You already have players who can't outheal the damage of a wet paper bag in dungeons, so obviously SE isn't going to alienate those players by suddenly requiring them to actually, you know, heal properly.

So that leaves you with only Savage and Ultimate, something that doesn't even make up 10% of the game's content. On top of that savage is always going to become easier the more you progress in any given raid tier as everyone in your team acquires better gear, giving you less to heal once again.

And this is the big problem with "giving you more to heal", it is heavily reliant on the content itself and your itemlevel compared to the minimum requirement.

Whereas more interesting dps options are reliant on nothing else but your ability to press buttons.

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Actually, for those reasons, I think you're totally right. Asking for more reasons to heal would go against the core philosophy of how they've been changing healers since the game came out, after actually considering that. Granted, I don't think it's a waste to ask for more midcore content like (Hard) dungeons in ARR; I feel that expert dungeons that are OPTIONAL should present at least somewhat more of a challenge than the MSQ dungeons rather than just being some extra hallways. Those could be fun places to fulfill this ask, and I don't know their take on that as of yet. However, I do totally agree that no matter what, healers absolutely need at least somewhat more complexity to their DPS rotation. Downtime isn't ever going to go away and keeping it to pressing one button at a time isn't ok.

I've skimmed through a good portion of this thread and while I understand the frustrations (Healer Main, UCOB downed), I heavily believe that if they add much more challenge to Healers or healing in general (in almost any form), there is a high chance more players will leave the role. PF already struggles to fill Healer and Tank roles and many players actually get performance anxiety as is. A bad healer can wipe your raid consistently, and there's ALOT of underperforming healers already. To take the chance on making these roles more complicated will definitely backfire on the community as a whole and if history shows us, the idea is not even supported by the community overall.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

I've skimmed through a good portion of this thread and while I understand the frustrations (Healer Main, UCOB downed), I heavily believe that if they add much more challenge to Healers or healing in general (in almost any form), there is a high chance more players will leave the role. PF already struggles to fill Healer and Tank roles and many players actually get performance anxiety as is. A bad healer can wipe your raid consistently, and there's ALOT of underperforming healers already. To take the chance on making these roles more complicated will definitely backfire on the community as a whole and if history shows us, the idea is not even supported by the community overall.

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Forgive me, could you enlighten us then over one hundred pages into just this thread? Exactly how do you define "much much challenge" and what history exactly? whose performance anxiety? Based upon what metrics exactly?

Because post like these are just shouting into the wind without any facts or proof at this point, whereas multiple people have made the effort to include posts showing just how little challenge there is at various levels of the game for healers.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

Forgive me, could you enlighten us then over one hundred pages into just this thread? Exactly how do you define "much much challenge" and what history exactly? whose performance anxiety? Based upon what metrics exactly?

Because post like these are just shouting into the wind without any facts or proof at this point, whereas multiple people have made the effort to include posts showing just how little challenge there is at various levels of the game for healers.

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History: Alexander Savage, Steps of Faith (OG), Eden Raids specifically E5S - E8S, anything that required a mote of either strategy or decent healing has had alot of complaints on the forums previously. Back around Stormblood, Healers complained about button bloat and how managing (contributing) DPS was a chore. That is the legacy of healing from Cleric Stance hopping, to overally DoT heavy (SCH), to lol AST card management. Healers have been reduced to where they are at because the tone of the overall classes has always been either too much effort or too many skills to manage. Yes there are vocal minorities on these forums that were disappointed with these changes but they were far outweighted by those complaining about competetive healing reliance vs ever increasing DPS checks. People keep pushing for DPS oriented healers, but there is also a faction that does not want complicated rotations and the battle has continued since beta, leading to the dev response of a middle ground -> more DPS reliance + less consistently demanded healing.

Performance Anxiety for healer roles is very much a thing. Maybe you've never heard of it, but I have had run-ins with countless amounts of players in FCs, Linkshells, PF and social media that wouldn't even touch healing because they already think there is too much reliance on the role. A biased take sure, but in my FFXIV career, it's well into the thousands of peoples I've crossed paths with, and that's just me, on my journey largely through what was known as the "raiding" servers. PF is actually the perfect diorama for this as well as Healers are still one of the rarest roles to fill in high end content. To be in denial of this very overt fact is silly at this point. This may boil down to the perception of healing in this game in general, but I don't think you can dismiss this as a fact.

Difficulty, while subjective, is going to be a slope. For those that actively play healers, yes, FFXIV is easy to adjust to no matter what new healer they put out, or changes they make. For those, however, that are teetering on the role or get their feet wet with the occasional savage or two, making the requirements more demanding will definitely push them away from the job. That's the core piece of players you need to worry about the most, as the hardcore healers will always remain, but the potential healers that could go either way may drop out, overall hurting the community. That's just logic, you don't really need facts but again PF is the perfect diorama here if you want a more rooted example.

I main SCH / SGE nowadays but have always mained healer roles since open beta. My opinion on them personally, no content has ever truly been difficult for healing beyond knowing what you can get away with (but that's true for all classes) and yes, I can even agree with some sentiments that Healer roles can be "basic" at times. Having said that, I've also been around long enough to see the countless complaint threads OG healing spawned on all the healing roles when it was more active. Been around long enough to go through EX, Savage and Ultimate content to know good healers are far more rare than not. Been around long enough to see people leave the role in droves.

Again that's my perspective and experience, people don't have to agree with it but based off that I genuinely believe there is no amount of complexity they can add to healer roles that would make it more attractive to play. So with that, what exactly is the purpose behind adding layers to it? To keep the hardcore healer players happy while pushing away the potential ones? That doesn't make sense to me.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

I've skimmed through a good portion of this thread and while I understand the frustrations (Healer Main, UCOB downed), I heavily believe that if they add much more challenge to Healers or healing in general (in almost any form), there is a high chance more players will leave the role. PF already struggles to fill Healer and Tank roles and many players actually get performance anxiety as is. A bad healer can wipe your raid consistently, and there's ALOT of underperforming healers already. To take the chance on making these roles more complicated will definitely backfire on the community as a whole and if history shows us, the idea is not even supported by the community overall.

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This argument applies to every single role. There are DPS in this game that suck. There are BLM that stay in Umbral Ice indefinitely, Freestyle SAMs, lolDRGs, the list goes on. They can wipe a raid just as consistently as a Bad Healer or Tank in the form of failing DPS checks with Add phases and Enrage mechanics being the most common type of DPS checks in raids. There is a MASSIVE variance between a Bad BLM and a Good BLM but the primary difference between a bad WHM and a good one is how many Cures vs Glares were cast. So tell me, why is it ok for players to have a high skill ceiling on DPS but not healers?

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

This argument applies to every single role. There are DPS in this game that suck. There are BLM that stay in Umbral Ice indefinitely, Freestyle SAMs, lolDRGs, the list goes on. They can wipe a raid just as consistently as a Bad Healer or Tank in the form of failing DPS checks with Add phases and Enrage mechanics being the most common type of DPS checks in raids. There is a MASSIVE variance between a Bad BLM and a Good BLM but the primary difference between a bad WHM and a good one is how many Cures vs Glares were cast. So tell me, why is it ok for players to have a high skill ceiling on DPS but not healers?

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A bad healer is far more noticeable and can wipe your raid more consistently at literally any ilvl more than any other role in the game. A bad DPS can be carried by the other three + tanks in most encounters even DPS Check heavy ones, as gearing progresses (sans the more recent Ultimates). That is a fact.

Reducing the conversation to Cures vs Glares as the deciding factor of what makes a good healer is an understatement. If it really was that simple, pretty sure alot of people would be playing healers. In actuality though, there is planning, mp management, an understanding of slide casting, cast times, damage registration, server ticks etc. Players who have played casters, already have a good understanding of this but the average DPS / Tank class? With Instant GCD to Damage feedback? Yeah there's more that plays into it for sure.

There does not need to be a higher skill ceiling on classes that are barely played to begin with. To suggest so is literally counter thesis to what the devs want, and doesn't make logistical sense in the long run. Historically, they make the most changes to the classes with the least play rates. (For EX. MNKs, AST, SMN - Constantly adjusted because of this.) The goal is to make all roles accessible to as wide of a net of players they can. Once you understand that, you inherently come to understand every single design decision they make.

Again, why would you raise the skill ceiling on classes that have low play rates as is? That makes no sense.

Despite that, I do blame players more so than the devs for the homogenization of roles to the degree it has come. On one hand, homogenization does help with balancing classes against each other, however classes that have been more difficult to play have constantly been shunned by the player base when applying the effort vs reward logic, which has directly lead to them reducing complexity on certain classes.

The complaints to make roles more accessible FAR OUTWEIGHS the complaints clamoring for more involved gameplay. They almost always comment on the "feedback" they receive from players and what their internal diagnostics is reflecting playrate wise when making adjustments. I don't see any reason to doubt them on this.

I kinda hate how many of the people shouting about "healing is easy and boring" is that they actively ignore the many players in this game that struggle with managing heals during normal content. Its not as blatant in 8-man or 24-man stuff because of the fact that you have co-healers to synergize with when things get bad as well as other alliance healers who can spare a rez or two.

Ive commented on this thread about it before but in my time playing this game Ive had many situations where if a healer is down on a dungeon mob pull pretty much the entire party is just dead unless the tank is very good in its mitigation to finish the rest of the culling. There's people of different skill levels and I agree with Havenchild that there's this odd situation between the casual and mid/hardcore where each side has a different view of healing in general. So I can see the struggle behind the devs trying to find that rough middleground.

Although I will say they have yet to find it. Healing classes in general needs a bit of a rework, at least with its dps department. Having a single button rotation for it is so outdated and we could use just a bit more useful things to support the party instead of just spamming a single spell for damage. Thing is, some classes already have those extra dps damage abilities, like a White Mage's Assize and Afflatus Misery or a Sage's Toxicon and Phlegma. What we need is for those abilities to get retooled to being able to be more freely available to use for dps time. Sage's design is a step in the right direction but it can definitely be a lot better.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

I've skimmed through a good portion of this thread and while I understand the frustrations (Healer Main, UCOB downed), I heavily believe that if they add much more challenge to Healers or healing in general (in almost any form), there is a high chance more players will leave the role. PF already struggles to fill Healer and Tank roles and many players actually get performance anxiety as is. A bad healer can wipe your raid consistently, and there's ALOT of underperforming healers already. To take the chance on making these roles more complicated will definitely backfire on the community as a whole and if history shows us, the idea is not even supported by the community overall.

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A bad dps or tank can wipe your raid entirely too though. All it takes is one tank mis-positioning and cleaving the entire raid team to kill everyone. In savage, just one mistake from anyone can wipe the whole group. This whole argument of healers wiping raids consistently is heavily flawed.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

A bad dps or tank can wipe your raid entirely too though. All it takes is one tank mis-positioning and cleaving the entire raid team to kill everyone. In savage, just one mistake from anyone can wipe the whole group. This whole argument of healers wiping raids consistently is heavily flawed.

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Dps responsibility is only really true in savage and extreme content though, where complex mechanics are relegated to EVERY member to follow or else the whole thing gets screwed. In regular content difficulty is less demanding and the responsibility is really only relegated to the tank and healers surviving the fights.

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Originally Posted by Havenchild

Again, why would you raise the skill ceiling on classes that have low play rates as is? That makes no sense.

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I think raising the skill ceiling for healers is actually the play, but begrudgingly, not through healing.

Imo class design is at it's best when something has a low skill floor and a high skill ceiling. You can pick up the class and play it to success with minimal effort/knowledge, but if you want to excel, you have room to grow. Since healing is so binary, either someone is gamer enough to keep up with the incoming damage, or not; the skill floor has to be low in order to not dissuade people from the role. So with that restriction, the next best bet would be to give healers a more comprehensive and engaging damage rotation. The devs already design non-savage/ultimate content around healers not doing any damage, so I fail to see why they wouldn't try to at least give healers more than 2~3 buttons to press.

It doesn't have to be a casual vs hard-core debate if both can get what they want out of the job. Healer damage might not be what folks exactly want in order to make it happen, but it's the best I can think of that isn't just telling newer healers to drop their canes in the name of the role being made more interesting/difficult, or telling raiding healers that they should play a different game or switch roles.

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Dps responsibility is only really true in savage and extreme content though, where complex mechanics are relegated to EVERY member to follow or else the whole thing gets screwed. In regular content difficulty is less demanding and the responsibility is really only relegated to the tank and healers surviving the fights.

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I meant just a few examples i can think of that require enough dps to be alive in normal content are the first nier raid where people need to stand in puddles. The second nier raid with the same mechanic. Then of course there’s dps checks in various normal context etc etc. There’s many ways a dps or tank can wipe the party, just as much if not more than a healer can. Dps now have a plethora of healing abilities and same with a couple of the tanks.