Bard - they broke my job

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Ranger is that way ---->
The problem with BRD is too many ppl rolled ARC to be Legolas. All of the complaints about BRD have been rooted in Legolas syndrome since 1.0. If SE made a ranger job we wouldnt be hearing so much whine about the same ole deepz topic.

Brd is about utility and damage support. Its role is auxiliary rather than primary. A great bard makes a raid buttery smooth.

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Legolas , really? 2001 is calling wants his Legolaswannabe jokes back.

BRD didnt even existed back in 1.0 , it wasnt until 1.2? that SE added Jobs....but things have changed a lot, Bard was still a DPS job tho , but could use Conjurer skills back then .

even in 2.0 u start as ARCHER , a DPS job....

we are in 3.0 and we are still doing dmg, "damage support or utility" roles are missing ;)

why ppl still think we are Auxiliary or on the sides role ? , we havent got any changes to our support skills , hell we got a new song that never gets used because is a joke.

Nin got all the support skills , on top of Goad , Trick attack and slashing debuff , but i dont see any1 talking about NIN utility and damage support.

I blame it on the Job names , Change Bard to Ranger w/o removing the songs and we wont have this "perception" of being support .

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Originally Posted by Warlyx

Nin got all the support skills , on top of Goad , Trick attack and slashing debuff , but i dont see any1 talking about NIN utility and damage support.

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*offtopic on*
well actually a lot of ppl talk about NIN right now cause it got a major problem yes it brings the support but in europe NIN is almost unplayable thx to the huge server delay it wont come far over 1k dps and changes are already planned for that *offtopic off*

also no need to blame it on the name my class could be called facemelt0r for all i care if it plays alright and BRD just doesnt play alright atm.

Any of you played Machinist too and know how they compare to Bards with the whole casting thing?
I am not bothered by cast times, what I am worried about however. Is the clunkiness that some people have mentioned.
I dunno if I want to level up my Machinist or Bard. I love the Ammo system and find the RNG system to be engaging. But holy crap.... The animations xD. They're so BORING in comparison to Bard.

I think that WM makes sense. Yeah, this is a fantasy game. And I am one of those people that don't care about realism. But still. I just like the idea of having the ability to run around and being more of a '' trick '' shooter. But then sitting back when given the opportunity, and actually. Oh I dunno. Actually drawing the bow properly and aiming :P. I dunno if any of you have fired a war bow in real life. But they're heavy. Actual war bows don't work the way that you see in movies with characters like Legolas.

Oh dear, somebody already brought up the Legolas thing and upset people xD.
Don't get me wrong. I LOVE the mobility, and like I said. I am one of those people that give zero shiets about realism.
I like half naked men and women running around on open battlefields ( for some reason, people ignore the shirtless men with arrows flying by, lol.... ).

But I just also like the idea of my character focusing in more and giving the arrows more of a punch. I find the idea to be engaging, fun and rewarding.
I am just worried about the clunkiness that people have been talking about. I am just hoping that people are doing what they have a tendency to do when they don't like something.
Exaggerate. Let's be honest here. People LOVE to exaggerate.

Also, btw. Which abilities stay instant for bards and machinist in their stances?

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Also, btw. Which abilities stay instant for bards and machinist in their stances?

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no weapon skills for bard, though straight shot is instant with the proc.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Ranger is that way ---->
The problem with BRD is too many ppl rolled ARC to be Legolas. All of the complaints about BRD have been rooted in Legolas syndrome since 1.0. If SE made a ranger job we wouldnt be hearing so much whine about the same ole deepz topic.

Brd is about utility and damage support. Its role is auxiliary rather than primary. A great bard makes a raid buttery smooth.

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I actually think there is a measure of truth here.

Did SE try and shove two sets of skills and ideas from two different classes into one?

Did SE take Bard in the wrong direction perhaps? Perhaps they should have been more bold and decided to split the job into two. Ranger would be more like what we see now in 3.0 but stripped down to remove that clunky feel, try and get that fluid motion that BLM has to their skills. The other side could be Bard which would be similar to 2.00 Bard but PUSH the support side.

I'm just bouncing round ideas off the top of my head here, i'm well aware that they never wanted to do the whole "split class" thing again, but i feel like they missed a trick here.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

Ranger is that way ---->
The problem with BRD is too many ppl rolled ARC to be Legolas. All of the complaints about BRD have been rooted in Legolas syndrome since 1.0. If SE made a ranger job we wouldnt be hearing so much whine about the same ole deepz topic.

Brd is about utility and damage support. Its role is auxiliary rather than primary. A great bard makes a raid buttery smooth.

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Did you just reference Legolas in 2015?

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Originally Posted by Katchoo

I actually think there is a measure of truth here.

Did SE try and shove two sets of skills and ideas from two different classes into one?

Did SE take Bard in the wrong direction perhaps? Perhaps they should have been more bold and decided to split the job into two. Ranger would be more like what we see now in 3.0 but stripped down to remove that clunky feel, try and get that fluid motion that BLM has to their skills. The other side could be Bard which would be similar to 2.00 Bard but PUSH the support side.

I'm just bouncing round ideas off the top of my head here, i'm well aware that they never wanted to do the whole "split class" thing again, but i feel like they missed a trick here.

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This is what I feel they've done goofed here, at least on the perspective of WM+BRD versus GB+MCH. If they wanted MCH to compete with bard as a "ranged support" or "physical ranged" class, that's fine. Don't homogenize their gameplay too. I mean realistically speaking with the way they design content, an ideal composition will always require a bard or a machinist for regen, especially in cutting edge progression, so I don't think a "pure dps" route that foregoes the support aspect would have solved anything.

Honestly that's probably a bad route to go too; if anything even if they were to make a ranger class and give them WM, they'd still have the same problem of functionality because they still have archer skills and traits. That means river of blood, bloodletter, straighter shots and all that jazz. Not to mention you'd be hard pressed to make adjustments to ranger that would not directly affect bard (much like trying to balance SMN's dps without affecting SCH)

There's nothing wrong with trying to build upon a class with new skills or gameplay changes, but it needs to keep in mind of their previous toolkit and that the addition is both functional and works with how they were previously designed.

SE is giving away support skills to other jobs (see Drg with BL )....

every job has "support" skills in one form or another , but the only jobs that give up dmg for it are BRD and MCH.

there will never be a full support in FFXIV . thats why we have an Archer that "sometimes" uses a harp to sing a song that regen MP or TP....

i said it before , but we are bards only 5% of time....if u are solo u arent singing , if u are in party w/o mage , and no need for MP/TP regen u arent a Bard....u are just Archer that is handcuffed because u potentially use that songs in other situations...in the meantime enjoy your lower Weapon DMG and casting shots.

Its like removing jumps from drg , or removing ninjutsu spells when ninjas are solo or in certain light partys.

Even in some full partys the BARD songs arent even needed.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Honestly that's probably a bad route to go too; if anything even if they were to make a ranger class and give them WM, they'd still have the same problem of functionality because they still have archer skills and traits. That means river of blood, bloodletter, straighter shots and all that jazz. Not to mention you'd be hard pressed to make adjustments to ranger that would not directly affect bard (much like trying to balance SMN's dps without affecting SCH)

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Oh yeah i totally agree, i mean for it to work they would have to do a total class/job redesign to align all those abilities.

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Originally Posted by Katchoo

Did SE try and shove two sets of skills and ideas from two different classes into one?

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Not necessarily. I think the problem is the devs' attempt to have the archer and troubadour sides of BRD mesh with each other didn't work out, and that's mostly due to poor implementation (see: WM).

I look back to the chanter from Pillars of Eternity and the Bard from The Bard's Tale and see there were other uses of songs in combat beyond buffing allies. I remember the Bard could summon minions, and the Chanter could trigger specific effects via invocations (hence why my Invocation system was inspired by the latter). Maybe instead of WM, BRD could have been given something along these lines to help it stand out.

one thing im thinking about is still the reason for WM to even exist if SE wanted to make 4 range mage classes why even bother to make 4 different ones because thats what it is right now the 4 range classes are all almost the same. in the eyes of a developer that might be good because its oh so easy to balance but in the eyes of the players that just sucks

and plz dont say now *oh bard could evade all the aoes without anything blabla*
we still can we just to press one more button so sry guys but that argument is invalid.

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Originally Posted by yamochan

People pls

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I'll give you the definition of a "Mage" : "A magician, wizard, witch, or mage is someone who uses or practices magic derived from supernatural or occult sources. Magicians are common figures in works of fantasy, such as fantasy literature and role-playing games, and enjoy a rich history in mythology, legends, fiction, and folklore." (Thanks Wikipedia). Do the BRD and MCH find their power in supernatural or occult sources ? No. Just because you have cast time doesn't mean you are a mage.

And I didn't even understand your 2 last sentences but you sounded like a 12 yo girl in her puberty that tells her mom "Hun, Hun, mom. Just because you say so, you are not right okay ? I am 12 now, so shut up*

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Originally Posted by Duelle

I look back to the chanter from Pillars of Eternity and the Bard from The Bard's Tale and see there were other uses of songs in combat beyond buffing allies. I remember the Bard could summon minions, and the Chanter could trigger specific effects via invocations (hence why my Invocation system was inspired by the latter). Maybe instead of WM, BRD could have been given something along these lines to help it stand out.

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Adding to this, Bard from FFXI had Sleep songs, DoT songs, Defence Up songs, Element Debuffs songs etc etc

I actually enjoy a lot how BRD plays now with WM.
2.x BRD felt kind of...flat to me.

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Originally Posted by AiiroOkami

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do BRD and MCH have cast times like the 2other mage classes now after hitting lvl 52 yes they have. i talk about playstyle not some mystical shenanigans all 4 play like the original BLM class now or at least close to it hence the reason i said 4 mages classes sry if that got misundertood.

also as for the last 2 sentences any time someone asks why bard got changed the answer from someone else was "because he could evade all boss mechanics" and that simply cant be the reason for the change, cause as i said we can still do that pretty easy by turning WM off (one click,done). i hope that explains the whole thing to you.

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Originally Posted by yamochan

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The answer "Because they could evade every mechanic" is totally true.
In most FCoB fights, A competent BRD could outDPS a BLM or SMN even some melees, just because they can move while DPSing while other classes couldn't really do it and it seemed really unfair to the players and to SE too.
Maybe you weren't there while the beginning of Titan HM, do you know what DPS class everyone wanted ? The BRD, because it could move while DPSing no matter what the mechanic was.

Now you have the same restrictions as everyone else, but WM is a also a really good boost that will make up for the movements restriction.
SE just did it for balance purpose.

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Originally Posted by AiiroOkami

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i was there when titan started i know how much dmg BRD did. i was also there when we got nerfed the first time cause our songs stacked and our dmg was way to high.
i was there when the 2nd and 3rd nerfes hit us and put us at the end of the dps table because SE said BRD is now a supporter that for some reasons still queues up as dmg dealer.
i was there when heavensward hit us like a brick wall and BRD as well as MCH were left out of bismark ex because they just couldnt bring the dmg. also the fact that the whole damn class was changed you had to learn BRD from square one again.

im still here after 110 pages of SE ignoring the playerbase crying out for changes that might never come.because BRD feels clunky as shit and we get interupts to our shots because of aoe dmg or simply the server not noticing that the BRD is already standing and not moving anymore.

SE gave us one thing and thats the stance dance with this we can at least raid cause we are not miles behind anymore but still a good way behind.
oh and if u dont take my word for it, read the rest of the pages u will find it in many many other posts.

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Originally Posted by AiiroOkami

just because they can move while DPSing while other classes couldn't really do it and it seemed really unfair to the players and to SE too.
Maybe you weren't there while the beginning of Titan HM, do you know what DPS class everyone wanted ? The BRD, because it could move while DPSing no matter what the mechanic was.

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Feel like we are going over old ground now.

Bard was balanced around having 100% uptime, thats why it has the lowest weapon damage in the game. Not only this but where other jobs have high potency skills and additional job skills we have song.

It's a case of the job being easy to maintain while dodging etc. I mean a DRG can dodge an attack and keep on attacking but it might mess up his rotation, maybe delay an attack slightly, the balance of jobs took this into account damage wise but not the amount of SKILL needed.

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Originally Posted by AiiroOkami

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A competent bard will not outdps a competent melee on any time of day, even with mechanics in mind (with very few exceptions like T9 on monk, because lol). A lot of Mechanics in FcoB weren't even that detrimental to melees who knew the fight in and out (which they had to if they wanted to meet checks before echo was inplemented), even in regards to getting flank/rear positional on T11 and earthshaker uptime on T13 (until the last phase anyway).

And even then, BRD and MCH's dps in 3.0 (that is, with WM/GB active) is still comparatively lower than that of all the other classes (who more or less have the same degree of freedom they had before, save for maybe blm). turning off WM/GB due to high movement has you dipping into playing a 2.0 class in a 3.0 environment which is now infact, a dps loss on high movement (because WM is technically not a direct increase, not as much as it is required to pull relatively the same numbers in comparison).

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

turning off WM/GB due to high movement has you dipping into playing a 2.0 class in a 3.0 environment which is now infact, a dps loss on high movement (because WM is technically not a direct increase, not as much as it is required to pull relatively the same numbers in comparison).

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Thank you, somebody else who sees this. This being one of my other gripes about WM, it's not really a choice.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

And even then, BRD and MCH's dps in 3.0 (that is, with WM/GB active) is still comparatively lower than that of all the other classes (who more or less have the same degree of freedom they had before, save for maybe blm). turning off WM/GB due to high movement has you dipping into playing a 2.0 class in a 3.0 environment which is now infact, a dps loss on high movement (because WM is technically not a direct increase, not as much as it is required to pull relatively the same numbers in comparison).

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Honest question: is there any fight where we have to take WM off for more than 1 GCD? Right now I'm working on S3 and there are very few moments where we need to revert back to 2.0 Bard in anything. Examples being Ravana Ex during the vuln orbs, Wash Away in S3 before digi (which you can still get away with if your healer runs to you), and... that's all I can think of.

I cancelled my account today, I'll check back in occasionally to see if anything's changed, but I'm just not having fun on bard anymore.

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

Honest question: is there any fight where we have to take WM off for more than 1 GCD? Right now I'm working on S3 and there are very few moments where we need to revert back to 2.0 Bard in anything. Examples being Ravana Ex during the vuln orbs, Wash Away in S3 before digi (which you can still get away with if your healer runs to you), and... that's all I can think of.

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I've toggled GB off on some cases with the alarums in order to squeeze in some hits while waiting for the resins to go out. I mean the amount of times where you actually need to leave it off for extended periods of time (even leaving it off for one second like the alarum example isn't out of the question because you can instantly swap back into it anyway). I mean there are also times where you need to interrupt your cast to get out of an AoE (which is technically a lost GCD and thus, lost dps), but doesn't mean you need to turn off WM (which was sorta the point I was getting, interrupt casts are detrimental to our dps when it wasn't the case before hand, which some would justify as the reasoning for lower damage output)

Those situations are few and far between, and happen to Black Mage as well (unless they have Swift). Also the ability to move before the cast time is done further buffers our ability to strafe in just about any difficult content. There's only one instance where RNG can cause headaches for us when dodging AoEs, and that's the Wind Phase in Bis Extreme.

So yes, I agree that there are times where we are forced to move and we'll lose a GCD, but it happens so little and so infrequently that I don't perceive it as a problem. That's just my opinion though, and I'd love to know your thoughts on how impactful it is to our job :).

Edit: I never toggle off WM during adds in S1. We call off our missile, I bait the Resin, and I reapply iron jaws on the Oppressors until they use their beams. I always kill my add after that move, so I'm not sandwiched between it and lose my positioning under the missile. Hopefully that makes sense!

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Originally Posted by AkashiXI

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On the flipside, melee isn't too heavily impacted with downtimes either when they know how to minimize it. That's what I'm trying to get at. I don't think our dps is inherently low because of the movement as much as it is because reasons. (because yoshida and devs keep bouncing between "its their mobility" or "its their support")


I toggle it because I want to get as many hits in and kill it without using my GB abilities (gauss and ricochet). Which usually boils down to using the 1-2-3 shots and heart breaker; Getting damage throughout and getting a proc off split shot will set me up nicely for when I position it and reattach GB.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

On the flipside, melee isn't too heavily impacted with downtimes either when they know how to minimize it. That's what I'm trying to get at. I don't think our dps is inherently low because of the movement as much as it is because reasons. (because yoshida and devs keep bouncing between "its their mobility" or "its their support")


I toggle it because I want to get as many hits in and kill it without using my GB abilities (gauss and ricochet). Which usually boils down to using the 1-2-3 shots and heart breaker; Getting damage throughout and getting a proc off split shot will set me up nicely for when I position it and reattach GB.

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Then it sounds like your reasons are Machinist (or your raid's DPS/timing) specific, which is understandable. And you're right, they're not. Outside maybe adds in S1, Wash Away in S3, and the potential loss of their stack/stance from being Quarantined in S4, melee get to enjoy a relatively easy Striking Dummy fight. That being said, they still do lose GCDs here and there (chasing down the tank in Digititis, kiting orbs in Ravana Extreme, avoiding a nado in Bis Extreme), but it almost all becomes negligible as groups work mechanics around them. That's the truth of it: melee will always be in top priority when it comes to the most uptime on any raid boss, and other jobs work around them to achieve this.

Anyways... I'm going on a tangent, but the point is melee do suffer from the same problems as they're learning how to optimize, and I firmly believe BRD/MCH suffer in the same respect (sans the random AoE at the worst casting time for us).

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Originally Posted by AiiroOkami

I'll give you the definition of a "Mage" : ...

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You could take a sprinting, punching, lotta-CDs-2-dots-1-proc-and-a-lot-of-filler Fire Mage and it'd still be a mage (even if likely playing more similarly to 2.x's Bard). Just not our mages. XIV 'Mage' is essentially an equivalent expression to 'turret nuke class'. No point in purposely taking things out of their more specific context when the meaning's plenty clear.

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Originally Posted by Katchoo

Thank you, somebody else who sees this. This being one of my other gripes about WM, it's not really a choice.

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This is the sad truth of it. At a good 15% dps increase even just in ST situations, it's kind of unavoidable. If we had gained any-stance EA at 52 and then WM at 54, it'd at least give the illusion of choice instead of being a something you click off for a few seconds, no more often than once every 15-minus-said-few seconds, to get across the room. I like WM. I don't like its alternative being so much below that I don't feel like I'm pushing any limits in or am pigeonholed into using it, though.

I just want to say that I have mained bard since a month after launch.

I did not like WM at first, but I grew to like it and have incorporated it, and the new skills, into my existing rotation.

I have more fun with bard than I ever have since these changes in 3.0. Anyone who refuses to adapt and change so they can maximize their dps deserves to unsub and quit the game. Bard is a blast to play now, and you're crazy to say otherwise.

I should also point out that most bards nowadays do not realize that you do not have to say in WM all the time.

I've played with bards who have WM on the entire run. Literally from the moment they spawn at the beginning of the dungeon, until the last boss dies. This is not how it should be used to be optimal, and imo its rather boring and detrimental to your party this way.

There are definitely times where its needed, and certain phases where it is best to turn it off (add phases during a boss fight for example). In a boss fight, I will straight shot, wind bite and venomous bite, switch on WM and throw all of my CDs on EA, and just go to town from there. Add phase? I usually turn off WM until all adds are dead and then resume what I was doing before. Its not rocket science.

I also use the "lazy bard" macro and have added sidewinder to it since 3.0. This also helps quite the bit.

There is nothing wrong with having it on during the entire run. Things die quicker with it on, so it's not detrimental in any way. Just need to know when to dodge.

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Originally Posted by Ferrasper

There is nothing wrong with having it on during the entire run. Things die quicker with it on, so it's not detrimental in any way. Just need to know when to dodge.

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But it is sir. It'll take you a few extra seconds to straight shot before you start aoe'ing (if you do). Or if you are single targeting, it'll take you even longer to straight shot and apply your dots.

Your reasoning/defending having it on 100% of the time is why bards are complaining about their bad dps with WM. Its not being used optimally. Its not meant to be up 100% of the time.

AND I never did say that things dont die quicker with it on, but in comparison to the above - mobs die slower because you are taking longer to get set up. Instead of having instant dots and a straight shot buff, you choose to cast. Its a detriment to me.

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Originally Posted by VoltaAsura

But it is sir. It'll take you a few extra seconds to straight shot before you start aoe'ing (if you do). Or if you are single targeting, it'll take you even longer to straight shot and apply your dots.

Your reasoning/defending having it on 100% of the time is why bards are complaining about their bad dps with WM. Its not being used optimally. Its not meant to be up 100% of the time.

AND I never did say that things dont die quicker with it on, but in comparison to the above - mobs die slower because you are taking longer to get set up. Instead of having instant dots and a straight shot buff, you choose to cast. Its a detriment to me.

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The 30% applies to straight shot and the dots as well though upon impact. I would need test data to even start believing your theory on less damage because they wouldn't have given it to us plus 30% buff if it wasn't to be used upon openers.

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Originally Posted by VoltaAsura

I just want to say that I have mained bard since a month after launch.

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Then your playstyle didn't suddenly change after two years of muscle memory and practicing.

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Originally Posted by VoltaAsura

I have more fun with bard than I ever have since these changes in 3.0. Anyone who refuses to adapt and change so they can maximize their dps deserves to unsub and quit the game. Bard is a blast to play now, and you're crazy to say otherwise.

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Because what you find fun is the ultimate truth, right? No one "deserves" to unsub because of such drastic changes in their job, this is nonsense. I've adapted, yes, but it doesn't mean I'm comfortable or having fun with the job I loved before. Maybe I'm crazy, as you said.

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Originally Posted by VoltaAsura

I should also point out that most bards nowadays do not realize that you do not have to say in WM all the time.

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I'll also point out that every second you don't have WM up is a DPS loss. No working around this one. There's nothing that justify turning it off for DPS purposes, only movement.

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Originally Posted by VoltaAsura

I've played with bards who have WM on the entire run. Literally from the moment they spawn at the beginning of the dungeon, until the last boss dies. This is not how it should be used to be optimal, and imo its rather boring and detrimental to your party this way.

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This is how it should be used to be optimal, yes. 30% damage increase. Period. And detrimental to your party? Tell me how 30% damage increase is detrimental to anyone, please.

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Originally Posted by VoltaAsura

In a boss fight, I will straight shot, wind bite and venomous bite, switch on WM and throw all of my CDs on EA, and just go to town from there.

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Because applying your DoTs without the 30% and without any cooldowns, plus wasting at least 3 seconds only popping cooldowns (assuming that you use HA, RS, BfB, IR and Barrage) for EA is very effective.

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Originally Posted by VoltaAsura

Add phase? I usually turn off WM until all adds are dead and then resume what I was doing before. Its not rocket science.

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Why would you turn it off for adds? If you pre-position yourself, there's absolutely no reason to turn it off whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by VoltaAsura

I also use the "lazy bard" macro and have added sidewinder to it since 3.0. This also helps quite the bit.

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You should've started with this statement, so I could know how seriously you play from the start and don't waste my time, but oh well.

turning WM off for adds in lets say a1 savage is pretty normal for me at least but that might be because im playing in europe and even with prepositioning i have lost the add sometimes so im just rather save then sry.

the only other reason i see is in very movement heavy situations lets say ravana or a3 savage. i think u can ofc turn it off in other situations as well as long as u know all boss mechanics and know when u have a window to move a4 laser and orb catching might be such a situation as well.

to end this its definatily not optimal to leave it on full time but you should use it as much as possible also just like Inferiae i ofc use it as well but that does not mean i like it. i rather think its the biggest pile of shit SE has thrown at us bards from the start. even the 2.X nerfes dont compare to this

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Originally Posted by yamochan

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I only stance dance between WM for a GCD or two in A3s, not much more needed than that, I mean turning it off at key times is crucial yes but the post way above me is absolutely wrong lol.
BTW lil tip for A1 is to save hawks eye/bfb/barrage for the add. You can line yourself under the lazer and kill it before resin bomb even comes out, meaning you dont have to turn off WM at all. If you skip the 3rd jump you are not losing a cast of HE BFB or barrage over the entire fight.

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Originally Posted by VoltaAsura

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This is absolutely wrong. If you have a cast time, your GCD is 2.5 seconds. If you have no cast time, your gcd is 2.5 seconds. With a cast time, the cast is still shorter than your GCD.

Unless you're tlaking about setting up with SS and such WHILE tanks are chain pulling, then I'll agree with you, but even then WM is never meant to be off for more than a few GCDs. Even, having it off for 1 gcd with HS or SS is technically a dps increase, but it is a minor difference to have it on all the time vs. the argument you have regardless. anyone playing correctly will tell you they do much more with it on AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE and maximizing with stancedanceing only makes a minor diff

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Originally Posted by aabe

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well i didnt say to leave it off... i said at the end keep it long as much as humaly possible but its still better to turn it off for a GCD then to loose one thats all i wanted to point out to the ppl who say keep it up all time cause keeping it up all time and loosing hits is a worse dmg loss then dancing.

as for the tip if i want to keep WM on i have to save a instant as well cause as i said im playing from germany and the serverlag we have is pretty bad so yeah the idea is good and with a saved instant it should work for me. cnt wait till oktober when we get our servers ...

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Originally Posted by VoltaAsura

But it is sir. It'll take you a few extra seconds to straight shot before you start aoe'ing (if you do). Or if you are single targeting, it'll take you even longer to straight shot and apply your dots.

Your reasoning/defending having it on 100% of the time is why bards are complaining about their bad dps with WM. Its not being used optimally. Its not meant to be up 100% of the time.

AND I never did say that things dont die quicker with it on, but in comparison to the above - mobs die slower because you are taking longer to get set up. Instead of having instant dots and a straight shot buff, you choose to cast. Its a detriment to me.

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AoE is when the gap between WM and non-WM is largest... Seeing as AA is a much smaller component of your total damage.
As for your single-target scenario, WM delays each addition of your DoTs by 1.5 seconds. That's not enough delay to make 30% of their damage worthless. If the timing was that tight, you should be using Heavy Shot alone for greater potency, since half a tick would apparently be making or breaking the decision, and for 20 more TP at that.

The ONLY time non-WM is viable right now is if you will have to delay an ability by more than a third of a GCD due to movement/knockbacks/heavy damage. And it will then be for that/those one/two GCDs only. You turn it back on absolutely as soon as you can (consuming an oGCD space in the process). It's really only dropped for chasing tanks on chain pulls and for darting across the room without needing an SS proc atm.

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Originally Posted by yamochan

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Nah was just saying flipping it off for a GCD is an actual dps increase most of the time, you get an autoattack which is 100p as opposed to 40-45 added to an ss/hs
With 1 OGCD up it's also fine because you can flip on WM and then use your OGCD right afterwards, I was just providing a tip for A1 that lets you keep up WM fulltime.

first post ever! :)

and just want to say it sounds like I shouldn't have any issues seeing how I will be playing the class how it is now and never played it how it was

sorry to hear it sounds like it isn't as good, or maybe, as fun? as it once was but at least I will know no different