I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

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Originally Posted by fulminating

Not only that, but have you played reaper or summoner below 70? I'm convinced the only reason sage and gunbreaker are tolerable is due to them following the template so closely.

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I think you mean “have you played SMN below 86” because that’s the level it becomes slightly tolerable

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I think you mean “have you played SMN below 86” because that’s the level it becomes slightly tolerable

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I mean have you played nusumn at all, but I’d like not to derail the thread

PVE healing at level 90 is about as tolerable as having an STD in your eye.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

PVE healing at level 90 is about as tolerable as having an STD in your eye.

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PVE healing at level 90 is so intolerable, when I joined a group of friends to do TOP I made the conscious request that 'hey can I do the PhysRanged role, despite having almost never played PhysRanged in content beyond EX roulettes'

Says a lot IMO that I, someone who is usually not a fan of DPS classes (on account of it's lack of 'split responsibilities' (eg tanks having to juggle aggro management, positioning boss, dealing damage, maintaining selfsustain/damage mitigation, etc)) would rather learn an entire different role and it's associated openers/rotations (for both MCH and DNC in case I need to swap for any reason) than go through 1000+ pulls of Glare being my contribution to the DPS checks

And if nothing substantial changes for DT, I might actually make the jump more permanently because, crazy enough, having an actual rotation is actually fun??? Get SE on the phone, this is breaking news

Plus as DNC I get to support the team somewhat with Improv>Finish to shield, Shield Samba to mit, Curing Waltz to help heal. Literally more mitigation tools available than WHM, plus an actual rotation to play with

edit: PVE healing at level 90 is also so intolerable, I am only on FFXIV to fish and raidlog for TOP, instead I am playing Classic WOW where despite being 20 years old, healers more than 2 buttons in their damage rotations, MP management, support skills like Judgements/Blessings, Innervate, etc

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https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/scree...al/1144790.png
https://wow.zamimg.com/uploads/scree...al/1144793.png

IDK whether to laugh or cry. I guess if SE isn't going to use the idea, it's fair game, right

^

Another reason to abolish the 2 min meta and redesign every job so that Haste is a strict DPS gain in all cases, and give more jobs abilities to provide haste buffs to others, like RDM.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Another reason to abolish the 2 min meta and redesign every job so that Haste is a strict DPS gain in all cases, and give more jobs abilities to provide haste buffs to others, like RDM.

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Even if they abolish the 2 minute meta, that still wouldn't make haste desirable on all jobs. Despite being a strict damage gain in all cases, some jobs would still hate getting haste because of the rigid design of their job. Jobs like NIN, DRG and GNB would still not want haste due to internal drift within their kit.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Even if they abolish the 2 minute meta, that still wouldn't make haste desirable on all jobs. Despite being a strict damage gain in all cases, some jobs would still hate getting haste because of the rigid design of their job. Jobs like NIN, DRG and GNB would still not want haste due to internal drift within their kit.

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Something I've said before is if we get haste buffs back, and you give me a haste buff while I play dancer, I will make a macro for clicking off haste buffs with a passive aggressive /p message.

"I appreciate your attempt to make my rotation drift, but I have chosen to exchange your attack speed buff for a better gift."

Expanding on my Tranquil Hearts idea for WHM. Each time Glare/Holy is cast, it grants a Tranquil Heart which stacks up to three times, and each stack reduces the cast/recast of healing spells, and certain damage spells. These damage spells are Quake, Flood, and Gale. Using Quake gives you access to Stoneskin, just barrier HP for you, and your party. Using Flood turns Cure III into Cure IV, an instant damage and heal GCD. Using Gale grants a moderate movement speed buff to the WHM.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Something I've said before is if we get haste buffs back, and you give me a haste buff while I play dancer, I will make a macro for clicking off haste buffs with a passive aggressive /p message.

"I appreciate your attempt to make my rotation drift, but I have chosen to exchange your attack speed buff for a better gift."

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And that's why I'd make any 'haste' buff be an Autoattack speed buff rather than a GCD speed buff. More 'boring', possibly, but it captures the essence of 'going faster' without mangling people's rotation alignment. Plus, Riddle of Wind already exists and shows that it's a thing that the engine can do

Not sure how you'd make 'haste' viable to a caster, without it messing their alignment up too. BLM is fine cos it's BLM, but SMN's summons are 'spells' so they'd get sped up too, and RDM would overcap on gauge too soon for it's burst window

Reduce cast time without reducing recast time. It adds more safety and mobility without affecting rotations. Summoner gets screwed over because they have neither good auto attack damage or cast times, but getting screwed over is pretty on brand for summoner.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

And that's why I'd make any 'haste' buff be an Autoattack speed buff rather than a GCD speed buff. More 'boring', possibly, but it captures the essence of 'going faster' without mangling people's rotation alignment. Plus, Riddle of Wind already exists and shows that it's a thing that the engine can do

Not sure how you'd make 'haste' viable to a caster, without it messing their alignment up too. BLM is fine cos it's BLM, but SMN's summons are 'spells' so they'd get sped up too, and RDM would overcap on gauge too soon for it's burst window

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That’s also why in my SCH proposal I made fey wind an auto attack buff to evoke the feeling of old fey wind, it’s about the closest you can get without anyone being annoyed by anything

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Reduce cast time without reducing recast time. It adds more safety and mobility without affecting rotations. Summoner gets screwed over because they have neither good auto attack damage or cast times, but getting screwed over is pretty on brand for summoner.

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That could still mess up classes that sit on the edge of speed tiers that give specific weave windows, imagine clipping because the SCH sped up your casts

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

And that's why I'd make any 'haste' buff be an Autoattack speed buff rather than a GCD speed buff. More 'boring', possibly, but it captures the essence of 'going faster' without mangling people's rotation alignment. Plus, Riddle of Wind already exists and shows that it's a thing that the engine can do

Not sure how you'd make 'haste' viable to a caster, without it messing their alignment up too. BLM is fine cos it's BLM, but SMN's summons are 'spells' so they'd get sped up too, and RDM would overcap on gauge too soon for it's burst window

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My hot take about RDM part is they could've been fine potentially with Haste if SE kept the niche from the old Enchanted Reprise that is a "situational DPS gain"-use of a button as opposed to today's "100% loss to use".

But lmao who am I to kid. Variety? Not in my small indie game!

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

My hot take about RDM part is they could've been fine potentially with Haste if SE kept the niche from the old Enchanted Reprise that is a "situational DPS gain"-use of a button as opposed to today's "100% loss to use".

But lmao who am I to kid. Variety? Not in my small indie game!

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If they wanted to bring haste effects back, they could fix this RDM issue with a little bit of creativity. Like creating a 3rd finisher to go with Verholy and Verflare, maybe call it Vergravity or something, make it consume white and black mana instead of restoring it. That would fix any overcapping issues from haste effects on RDM.

As for SMN, nothing can fix that abomination, just spam more Ruin III I guess?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

That could still mess up classes that sit on the edge of speed tiers that give specific weave windows, imagine clipping because the SCH sped up your casts

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Wouldn't not reducing recast times mean that it could only make weave windows bigger, not smaller?

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Even if they abolish the 2 minute meta, that still wouldn't make haste desirable on all jobs. Despite being a strict damage gain in all cases, some jobs would still hate getting haste because of the rigid design of their job. Jobs like NIN, DRG and GNB would still not want haste due to internal drift within their kit.

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Right, that's why I also said redesign every job so that Haste is a strict DPS gain in all cases. This "rigid design" needs be redesigned and "drifting" no longer be a thing.

Healer fix when?

On the topic of haste, there are a couple of things that I've been wondering like what if haste affected abilities, or if the base GCD were reduced to 2 seconds.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Healer fix when?

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When you make your own MMO and make healers not be boring to play, sadly. Doesn't seem like it's ever going to happen in XIV now

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Healer fix when?

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That would start by reducing or removing other jobs self sustain, and in some cases totally out of control self sustain.

I would also transfer all dps boosting utilities to healers so we have more to do.

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Originally Posted by mallleable

On the topic of haste, there are a couple of things that I've been wondering like what if haste affected abilities, or if the base GCD were reduced to 2 seconds.

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We actually did have something that was basically haste for abilities before, original Spear from HW AST, I think it reduced ability recast by 10%? All it really did was cause internal drift on jobs though, but since the combat system wasn't as rigid back then, it wasn't that much of an issue.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

We actually did have something that was basically haste for abilities before, original Spear from HW AST, I think it reduced ability recast by 10%? All it really did was cause internal drift on jobs though, but since the combat system wasn't as rigid back then, it wasn't that much of an issue.

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It was 20% which could be huge if you communicated its use with tank invulns.

If it were a flat reduction rather than a percentage, the over-bearing nature of the 2min burst meta would make a retooled Spear actually incredibly good (sometimes), based on the fact it'd give you extra burst windows, or better yet, cause them to align with more favourable parts of the fight. Thinking about P7S having it's 6min window during Inviolate Purgation (with the knock up at the start), but with a Spear effect that is, for example 'reduces the CD on abilities by 15 seconds' it'd shift it forward

A question I'd to ask is what percentage of GCDs do you healer mains want to use on DPS vs. heals? How many total buttons (including OGCDs) do you want to spend on heals vs. DPS? Assuming healer DPS was suitably complex enough to be "fun" or "interesting."

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Originally Posted by Hyperia

That would start by reducing or removing other jobs self sustain, and in some cases totally out of control self sustain.

I would also transfer all dps boosting utilities to healers so we have more to do.

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As a healer player myself. I get the feelings of envy Healers have for other jobs. But this effort to tear down some of the few well designed jobs in the game to make healer feel marginally better to play just isn't the move. Casting a few more GCD heals in a fight won't chane anything.

The problem is that enemies in this game have been de-fanged. The fact that wall-to-wall pulls are even possible in low level dungeons before anyone has their OP sustain tools should say everything.

If it takes the collective effort of an entire dungeon to even begin to threaten a tank's health pool, we have a problem. Sustain in 14 is actually very sparce compared to other MMOs, it only feels out of control because you barely need any sustain to offset the miniscule amounts of damage you take.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

A question I'd to ask is what percentage of GCDs do you healer mains want to use on DPS vs. heals? How many total buttons (including OGCDs) do you want to spend on heals vs. DPS? Assuming healer DPS was suitably complex enough to be "fun" or "interesting."

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Honestly? As many as tanks. Because we only really heal them for tank busters and the dps for raidwide damage.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlpaw

As a healer player myself. I get the feelings of envy Healers have for other jobs. But this effort to tear down some of the few well designed jobs in the game to make healer feel marginally better to play just isn't the move. Casting a few more GCD heals in a fight won't chane anything.

The problem is that enemies in this game have been de-fanged. The fact that wall-to-wall pulls are even possible in low level dungeons before anyone has their OP sustain tools should say everything.

If it takes the collective effort of an entire dungeon to even begin to threaten a tank's health pool, we have a problem. Sustain in 14 is actually very sparce compared to other MMOs, it only feels out of control because you barely need any sustain to offset the miniscule amounts of damage you take.

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This is why I am contemplating retiring if healing does not get better in DT. As it stands right now, the only place where you can still see good trinity style healers at work is in fantasy or isakai anime.

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Originally Posted by Grizzlpaw

As a healer player myself. I get the feelings of envy Healers have for other jobs. But this effort to tear down some of the few well designed jobs in the game to make healer feel marginally better to play just isn't the move. Casting a few more GCD heals in a fight won't chane anything.

The problem is that enemies in this game have been de-fanged. The fact that wall-to-wall pulls are even possible in low level dungeons before anyone has their OP sustain tools should say everything.

If it takes the collective effort of an entire dungeon to even begin to threaten a tank's health pool, we have a problem. Sustain in 14 is actually very sparce compared to other MMOs, it only feels out of control because you barely need any sustain to offset the miniscule amounts of damage you take.

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Or, the amount of healing skills that healers have is bloated with respect to the way that damage is designed in this game and with the sustain that tanks have, as well as the skills that other jobs have.

If you want to start comparisons to other games, we could also mention that FFXIV doesn't even give us any options- you have a unique set of skills, whereas in a number of other MMOs healers either have multiple DPS skills that they may draw upon or skill trees that they may use as appropriate, in order to mix healing and DPS skills. That not only keeps things interesting but allow healers to provide the best value to a specific party, dungeon, solo play, etc.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

A question I'd to ask is what percentage of GCDs do you healer mains want to use on DPS vs. heals? How many total buttons (including OGCDs) do you want to spend on heals vs. DPS? Assuming healer DPS was suitably complex enough to be "fun" or "interesting."

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The way the game is designed means that we will functionally never be able to spend more than 5-10% of GCD’s or about 25% of total action presses on healing so I want my rotation my reflect that, a rotation that includes 5-6 damage buttons (SCH’s DOT juggling or a version of DNC’s base 1^3^5 2^4^6 are good examples)

I’m totally in favour of oGCD’s being nerfed or deleted to up the amount of times u have to cast succor but healers should be like tanks (not in rotational design but relative complexity, if the tank was only allowed to stand there and cast flash to hold agro and press defensives there is a limit to how many defensives they can press before they just aren’t needed, healers are exactly the same

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Originally Posted by Mithron

A question I'd to ask is what percentage of GCDs do you healer mains want to use on DPS vs. heals? How many total buttons (including OGCDs) do you want to spend on heals vs. DPS? Assuming healer DPS was suitably complex enough to be "fun" or "interesting."

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Ideally? 50/50 split.

I will say, personally, even if they gave us an in-depth damage kit, that only fixes half of our problems. The other half of our problems is that we spend most of our time using the downtime kit in the first place.

A proper fix would have in-depth damage kit with increased healing requirements. Uptime and downtime kit improved hand-in-hand.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

A question I'd to ask is what percentage of GCDs do you healer mains want to use on DPS vs. heals? How many total buttons (including OGCDs) do you want to spend on heals vs. DPS? Assuming healer DPS was suitably complex enough to be "fun" or "interesting."

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Aslong as no single ability uses up more than 20-25% of all my casts I wouldn't really Care.

That said, unless SE heavily nerfs oGCD healing and ramps up damage, I don't see the percentages shift much from the current status quo where we use over half of all our casts on dps.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Ideally? 50/50 split.

I will say, personally, even if they gave us an in-depth damage kit, that only fixes half of our problems. The other half of our problems is that we spend most of our time using the downtime kit in the first place.

A proper fix would have in-depth damage kit with increased healing requirements. Uptime and downtime kit improved hand-in-hand.

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It wouldn't have to be all damage if it could be support / buffing and debuffing.

I wouldn't even mind that because that's at least engaging and helping the party.

What do you guys think about only tanks having access to mitigation/party mitigation abilities, only healers having access to party DPS buffing abilities and all DPS being selfish DPS jobs with their own unique playstyles? Personally, I prefer DPS having party DPS buffing abilities too because I don't think jobs like BRD and RDM would fulfill their class fantasy if they were both just selfish DPS.

Been playing Season of Discovery in WOW. Playing Paladin mostly as tank but sometimes I heal (for faster dungeon finding). Thanks to runes, the special 'gimmick' of the season, gameplay is similar to here, 60-70% GCDs spent on damage, the rest on healing. Difference is that I have a lot more damage buttons there than I do here, and it's a frankenstein of a 20 year old game with a 'twist' stitched into it very haphazardly (sometimes bugs happen with it, like questgivers dialog bugs out if it's rune related, and you have to do /reload to fix it)

When I'm healing on Paladin, I've got:

Autoattacks, they do actual damage
Seals to make autoattacks have extra effects, such as MP restore (Wisdom), HP (Light), extra damage (Righteousness) or attackspeed (Crusader)
Judgement to unleash the effect of the Seal, such as Crusader amplifying holy damage on the target, or Light allowing anyone hitting the target to heal ala Bloodbath. Of note is Righteousness, as it is flat holy damage, so doing this every 10s is another way to attack

Consecration, 8s CD, drops an AOE that deals DOT damage with no target cap, lasts 8s, pretty mana intensive though
Crusader Strike, 6s CD, restores 5% of my mana, is considered a melee hit
Divine Storm, 10s CD, hits 4 enemies, heals for 25% of the total damage dealt
Exorcism, 15s CD, deals damage, guaranteed crit on Demon or Undead enemy types
Holy Shock, 30s CD, deals damage or heals depending on target
Sheath of Light, passive that makes me have 30% of my physical attack power be added to my magic attack power rating for 1min each time I hit an enemy (aka 100% uptime), makes my heals stronger too
The Art of War, getting a melee crit (autoattack, Divine Storm, Crusader Strike) instantly resets the CD on Exorcism and Holy Shock

Blessing of Might increases physical attack power for target (yes that means party members not just me)
Blessing of Wisdom gives MP regen
Blessing of Salvation reduces threat generated (rip Smokescreen)
Blessing of Light makes your heal GCDs stronger by a flat amount
Blessing of Freedom removes slows/roots
Blessing of Protection prevents all physical damage to the target but prevents them from dealing physical damage

Devotion Aura gives bonus armor to all nearby allies
Retribution Aura causes reflect damage to enemies that hit any ally physically
Concentration Aura helps prevent spell pushback (the part of Surecast we never make use of)
Shadow/Frost/Fire Res Aura reduces damage dealt by those elements

Oh yeh and Hammer of Justice, a 60s CD stun. Its fun having more damage buttons, and having impactful utilities. Who knew?

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Ideally? 50/50 split.
I will say, personally, even if they gave us an in-depth damage kit, that only fixes half of our problems. The other half of our problems is that we spend most of our time using the downtime kit in the first place.
A proper fix would have in-depth damage kit with increased healing requirements. Uptime and downtime kit improved hand-in-hand.

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Basically where I'd stand on it too, just adding more damage rotation isn't the fix on its own, but it's a start. The biggest issue though is WHM. Given it's so GCD heavy on it's healing kit, it skews the question somewhat, as it doesn't have OGCDs to pad out the 50% we'd ask for, so for WHM specifically the ratio would be different I think. And then for AST, the issue is kind of reversed, with card gameplay bloating the OGCD side of the ratio

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

(SCH’s DOT juggling or a version of DNC’s base 1^3^5 2^4^6 are good examples)

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DNC without the dances would be a good amount of complexity for the damage, I think. a two step rotation, two procs to react to, a poolable resource (up to 4) and a 0-100 gauge that is spent on a big hit. So if we remove Fan Dance 1-2-3, and just have the 'feathers' used on FD4 (so it has use in ST and AOE), have the four base GCDs for ST (and just one with it's associated proc for AOE to save buttons), and maybe change Saber Dance to be a cool strong healing GCD (which refunds itself by being damage neutral, EG by forcing the procs on the 1-2 combo, or by giving a free use of FanDance4), then we'd have a good level of complexity I think, with many directions to 'add to' for later expansions designwise (Eg, a Flourish move to force procs, another gauge spender, 'feather' spender, etc)

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Originally Posted by Mithron

What do you guys think about only tanks having access to mitigation/party mitigation abilities, only healers having access to party DPS buffing abilities and all DPS being selfish DPS jobs with their own unique playstyles? Personally, I prefer DPS having party DPS buffing abilities too because I don't think jobs like BRD and RDM would fulfill their class fantasy if they were both just selfish DPS.

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Sounds 'interesting' in some regards, but given they can't make the tanks/healers feel 'distinct' enough from one another, we'd probably end up with the DPS feeling very samey too. It does confuse me why they felt RPR needed to have the 3% damage buff though. Ideally Viper will be selfish like SAM, so that Scouting mains can choose between Selfish and Raidbuffer easily

The issue isn't DPS having party-buffs, the issue I think is that they're too similar in what the buffs do, they're all just damage, crit rate or dhit rate (aka crit rate 2). We can't have GCD haste because it screws people's rotation alignment. We can't have ability recast reduction, because the 2min meta is so important now that misalignment is devastating to the raid's damage. They've painted themselves into a corner designwise on what buff effects we can actually have, so we just get 'X% damage dealt increase' reskinned several times

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Originally Posted by Mithron

What do you guys think about only tanks having access to mitigation/party mitigation abilities, only healers having access to party DPS buffing abilities and all DPS being selfish DPS jobs with their own unique playstyles? Personally, I prefer DPS having party DPS buffing abilities too because I don't think jobs like BRD and RDM would fulfill their class fantasy if they were both just selfish DPS.

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Ironically, I think this benefits the DPS roles themselves the most as they could finally have quirks or gimmicks that make unique without balance concerns. So long as the numbers matched up at some point, you'd be golden. That isn't to say it wouldn't benefit tanks and healers too. Both would get actually stuff to do beyond their basic DPS, especially healers.

Mitigation is a type of healing so I don’t think that mitigation being only on the tanks is helpful, I do like the DPS being selfish though

If I had to organise them I’d put them
-DPS->selfish with one or two noticeable exceptions that’s their entire playstyle design (like DNC)
-tanks->personal mitigation for tanking the boss
-shield healers->mitigation
->regen healers->reactive healing

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Originally Posted by Mithron

What do you guys think about only tanks having access to mitigation/party mitigation abilities, only healers having access to party DPS buffing abilities and all DPS being selfish DPS jobs with their own unique playstyles? Personally, I prefer DPS having party DPS buffing abilities too because I don't think jobs like BRD and RDM would fulfill their class fantasy if they were both just selfish DPS.

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I don't think it's a bad thing to have some overlap within the trinity, purely focusing on only one aspect of combat can be insanely dull unless done really well.

That said, there is a limit to the overlap so they don't end up with some omnirole monstrosity like WAR is in dungeons right now.

I don’t like the current design of mitigation being a complete pass fail check on raidwides that do too much damage but I like the idea of mitigation and shields that functionally do the opposite of what pure healing does (like what a shield healer should be)

For example if a raidwide is going to do 10,000 damage, a shield healer mitigates 20% of that (2000 damage) and heals 1000 (3000 total), a regen healer simply heals for 3000

Mitigation as a form of pre-emptive healing is what I’ve always liked about shield healers, 14 just dials it up to 11 but making the shield healer unequivocally the most important member of the party in high end duties and completely irrelevant in casual content

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I don’t like the current design of mitigation being a complete pass fail check on raidwides that do too much damage but I like the idea of mitigation and shields that functionally do the opposite of what pure healing does (like what a shield healer should be)

For example if a raidwide is going to do 10,000 damage, a shield healer mitigates 20% of that (2000 damage) and heals 1000 (3000 total), a regen healer simply heals for 3000

Mitigation as a form of pre-emptive healing is what I’ve always liked about shield healers, 14 just dials it up to 11 but making the shield healer unequivocally the most important member of the party in high end duties and completely irrelevant in casual content

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The idea with this current iteration of the game is definitely more about timing than it was in ShB and that's likely due to the 2 minute cycle being the standard. But having such a strict structure makes it feel kind of cheap and budgety in terms of how the fighting feels. That and it feels engineered towards end game hard mode fights where people are trying to stack multipliers to beat enrage checks where the base damage can't cut it. Having a 2 minute cycle globally in all content does make the leap into the hardmode content less daunting, but it misses the point of why people generally avoid the end game content in the first place, which is the amount of time needed to study in order to understand the fight and beat it. That and things always start out all rosy until people get stuck somewhere, and then the truth that every person is for themselves comes to light and rips things steadily apart, since in PF there is no social contract outside of maybe a threat of being black listed by a person you'll forget the name of the following day.

And even in statics the same traction can happen from poor management. E.g. a group going for three days gets cut down to two because one of the members can't make three days anymore, so they don't cut the person and find another that can. Then people get burned out since they can't prog off two days a week efficiently. I've seen this happen with groups all the time and no one ever learns. They let the relationship with the other members impact and get in the way of the primary goal.

Bringing this back up as a point just that healers need SOMETHING to do during downtime. Could be slightly more dps rotations or it could be buffs or debuffs.

I'm all for it, but the problem with that change is that there's going to be too many actions that will be needed to be bound to keys for PC players. On my healer jobs I'm already almost at the limit of hotbar slots that I have keybinds for, while keeping a somewhat logical layout at the same time.

So either they replace some healing spells with some offensive/buff/debuff ones, or I'll have to completely rethink my UI/hotbar/keybind layout I guess, which would make me sad.