#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

My main is healer too and I feel the game is so boring and repetitive that I often find myself falling asleep during missions... I didn't have this in the past where the later dungeons had bigger mobs which made me work and which made it fun since it allowed me to show I was more competent then most... now it all feels so... average...

> FRU cleared with No healers
> Look inside
> 4 Paladins

https://media.tenor.com/RhGBnmI6lY8A...inside-cat.png

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

> FRU cleared with No healers
> Look inside
> 4 Paladins

https://media.tenor.com/RhGBnmI6lY8A...inside-cat.png

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> Tank class
> looks inside
> tankier healer that does more damage than the healer

Isn’t this similar to how we had the 3 Tanks and 5 DPS on TOP? It was WAR/PLD/PLD then, but now with PCT I can understand how they can run 4 PLD. The run hinges on PCT’s performance to make up for the damage and push phases, though Healers in general are getting chucked pretty hard. Any other DPS that isn’t PCT would’ve made this probably run into Enrage possibly.

Regardless, Yoshida needs to do something about this because if Ultimates are just No-Healer fodder, Healers are going to drop except for the likes of WHM, which is still relegated as the “baby healer” in some circles. AST/SCH/SGE won’t see the light of day outside of those who are just picking it up to try it in high-end until they figure it out themselves.

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Isn’t this similar to how we had the 3 Tanks and 5 DPS on TOP? It was WAR/PLD/PLD then, but now with PCT I can understand how they can run 4 PLD. The run hinges on PCT’s performance to make up for the damage and push phases, though Healers in general are getting chucked pretty hard. Any other DPS that isn’t PCT would’ve made this probably run into Enrage possibly.

Regardless, Yoshida needs to do something about this because if Ultimates are just No-Healer fodder, Healers are going to drop except for the likes of WHM, which is still relegated as the “baby healer” in some circles. AST/SCH/SGE won’t see the light of day outside of those who are just picking it up to try it in high-end until they figure it out themselves.

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It doesn’t even rely on PCT because the two extra tanks are taking the spot of the healers and even with this clemency spamming they are doing more damage than the healers. So they are actually more efficient here than usual purely from a DPS perspective

They just lose out on the healer 1% which adds up to a lot which is why the actual run is slower

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Originally Posted by Yeol

I had to go find it asap https://m.bilibili.com/video/BV1QZNzeNEoQ

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For context, I want to mention that this at least took a month longer than it did for TOP. Not that it probably changes anything.

The irony in your point being one of the most valid points despite it being made as a joke.

It amounts to nothing more than a challenge run by people who are practiced and experienced in the game, tandem to calling Dark Souls (or some other intentionally difficult game) too easy because a small sub-set of people beat the game completely naked without dying once when that doesn't change the fact that its merely an outlier and not the normal.

At this point I'm just convinced that people here can't comprehend players who are good at games because half of them haven't done any recent content in difficulty beyond a level-synced Fate on the open world.

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Originally Posted by flowerkatie

The irony in your point being one of the most valid points despite it being made as a joke.

It amounts to nothing more than a challenge run by people who are practiced and experienced in the game, tandem to calling Dark Souls (or some other intentionally difficult game) too easy because a small sub-set of people beat the game completely naked without dying once when that doesn't change the fact that its merely an outlier and not the normal.

At this point I'm just convinced that people here can't comprehend players who are good at games because half of them haven't done any recent content in difficulty beyond a level-synced Fate on the open world.

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I loved how you jumped to your own defence and refute points you think we are going to make but none of us have actually said anything other than mildly commenting on its existence

My opinion on this is it doesn’t change the state of healers in the normal game it just shows healing kits and healing design are misaligned with damage dealt. That’s basically the long and short of it, I also said this in ShB so it’s not like it’s entirely based on this (or the TOP) kill

No I can’t do it myself, no PF won’t lock healers out yadda yadda yadda

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

but none of us have actually said anything other than mildly commenting on its existence [...]

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Originally Posted by HyperiusUltima

Regardless, Yoshida needs to do something about this because if Ultimates are just No-Healer fodder, Healers are going to drop except for the likes of WHM, which is still relegated as the “baby healer” in some circles. AST/SCH/SGE won’t see the light of day outside of those who are just picking it up to try it in high-end until they figure it out themselves.

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Lmao

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I loved how you jumped to your own defence and refute points you think we are going to make

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You mean like this?

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

Obligatory "It's Done By Highly Skilled Players in A Very Well Coordinated Party, No One Would Normally Do It, What Does it Matter" comment

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Originally Posted by flowerkatie

Lmao



You mean like this?

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You mean the one ironic meme comment and the one over dramatic comment

Perish the thought. How will we ever survive

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

You mean the one ironic meme comment and the one over dramatic comment

Perish the thought. How will we ever survive

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So discussion and response isn't allowed because it's "overly dramatic" so that doesn't count in your mind as being a point. And the other is a meme, mine is taken at face value and understood differently.

Very sound basis for discussion in a section called 'General Discussion'

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Originally Posted by flowerkatie

So discussion and response isn't allowed because it's "overly dramatic" so that doesn't count in your mind as being a point. And the other is a meme, mine is taken at face value and understood differently.

Very sound basis for discussion in a section called 'General Discussion'

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One dramatic comment doesn’t prove your point when the other comment is obviously a meme.

And since when did you want to “discuss” anything. You opened with “yall are just terrible” in your opening comment

I always wonder how dps and tank mains would react if you could do an on-patch ultimate without their roles.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

I always wonder how dps and tank mains would react if you could do an on-patch ultimate without their roles.

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I don't think the reaction would be as visceral if all roles could be dropped at some point of the history by relatively equal amount of times. But that's not what's happening here, it's clearly lop-sided to healers.

Wasn't the change to LB generation specifically meant to deal with this

Clearly SE needs to go back to the drawing board because the bandaid on the bullet wound hasn't really had much effect (who could have seen that result coming)

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Originally Posted by Saraide

I always wonder how dps and tank mains would react if you could do an on-patch ultimate without their roles.

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Once upon a time, people found a way to clear Ramuh EX without having to participate in the Tank mechanic, by having Titan Egi tank the boss instead.

The fight was released with patch 2.3, on 8th July 2014. The hotfix that prevented the strategy from working was deployed on 15th July 2014. The 'exploit' lasted exactly one week before getting addressed.

I do like that this kind of non-standard play can be done even in the highest level content honestly.

What bothers me is that healers aren't really allowed to step out from their role's boundaries like tanks and some dps are capable of doing, especially since it sounded like they used to be able to do that long ago.

Honestly I’m not even banking on them doing anything to Healers in 8.0 at this point. If Healers are irrelevant in every piece of content just because Tanks have all the tools to deal with nearly every instance of damage, then the role becomes moot. Even if you give Healers more damage buttons, it’s not going to fix the damage that’s been done to the role unless they reduce something on DPS/Tanks that will get Healers to be relevant again.

I also still blame Shadowbringers for this.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Once upon a time, people found a way to clear Ramuh EX without having to participate in the Tank mechanic, by having Titan Egi tank the boss instead.

The fight was released with patch 2.3, on 8th July 2014. The hotfix that prevented the strategy from working was deployed on 15th July 2014. The 'exploit' lasted exactly one week before getting addressed.

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To add to that, look at what happened with Second Coil. T8 and T9 were consistently solo tanked. When 2.3 Savage Second coil came out and Final Coil was out, there was no way you could solo tank those fights anymore.

Edit: In terms of the no healer clear, not that surprising when you have something like this going around. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=498577154

Not only does it show the timetable but also the damage that both dps/healers would take from the moves but also the tanks themselves.

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Originally Posted by flowerkatie

It amounts to nothing more than a challenge run by people who are practiced and experienced in the game, tandem to calling Dark Souls (or some other intentionally difficult game) too easy because a small sub-set of people beat the game completely naked without dying once when that doesn't change the fact that its merely an outlier and not the normal.

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And yet this kind of challenge always seems to be "no healer" instead of "no DPS" or "no tank" (and yes I am aware that there's been some tank only clears). But let's keep pretending it's not a symptom of how bad healers are when we can have "green tank" and "green dps" but god forbid we get more than one attack and a dot. Why can't we have "red healer" and "blue healer" for the sake of fun challenges by experienced people?

Tbf, as much as we like to prop up the defined and interdependent roles as sacred, the frequency with which we can find it fun to break from a rigid allocation and with which developers can condone one role being increasingly reduced to "break free from glass only in case of emergency" makes me wonder whether overspecialization does more harm than good.

Apart from hyperoptimizing back in ARR, in turn usually only due to a very poor healer or off-tank, there was no need to consider threat as a DPS beyond mere target focus and a couple GCDs' delay on bankables (rare at the time anyways), which in many ways made DPSing feel less interesting than it had in less specialization-heavy games in which one was expected to rotate in, distract, aim things out, etc., at least on occasion or within a larger group-wide rotation/polyrhythm. That is to say, having tanks be so powerful of tanks (with hugely more passive mit and overall mit coverage, no sacrifice to rDPS output for extra threat, etc.) essentially removed optimizations otherwise possible and, frankly, fun to partake in.

Healers' offensive capability are probably the more obvious example, in dropping from an average of 11 non-filler offensive GCDs per minute on a HW WHM to now... 2-3, or WHM launching with the highest AoE spam potency in the game (until oom, as Holy cost was very high at the time) or Stormblood SCH pumping absurd dungeon AoE via Bane + M2... to healer dps becoming an increasingly lower portion of party damage and being allowed very little engagement from offensive play despite that becoming an increasingly large percentage of GCDs. But, it's not just them.

To put it another way... why do tanks need ~40% passive mit atop already large base health pools? It goes well beyond need into just making anything else too inefficient to almost ever risk participating in tanking no matter what resources or defensives they bring forward.

Why do we need so many sustain abilities, such that healers commonly have more oGCD sustain than encounters can output in damage, especially without the ability to trade that "free" sustain (ideally, at reasonable exchange) for damage? It just means that healers' maximum dps output has to be reined in light of near perfect offensive uptime, in turn reducing their dynamism and agency between providing sustain or damage -- in a word, making them more... dull.

And, in consequence, why do the outputs and positioning available to DPS have to be mostly useless for tanking or spot-healing? Such makes their sustain relevant only if an AoE heal (and even then rarely saving healers a GCD), a speedy rez unless the given defensive can be mirrored by every other DPS at the same timing in a fight to which they can be usefully synced (i.e., very rarely except in heal-less groups with frequent mit checks). The rewards for broader awareness that to many may feel essential to "team play" beyond mere failure to PK others with one's positioning just feel so few and far between. And that's in no small part just because we've made the tanks too tanky, the heals too heals-flush (especially, relative to need, especially given said tanks) and the dps therefore overly insulated and the tanks and healers less able to draw nearly as much skill expression from most situations.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

And yet this kind of challenge always seems to be "no healer" instead of "no DPS" or "no tank" (and yes I am aware that there's been some tank only clears). But let's keep pretending it's not a symptom of how bad healers are when we can have "green tank" and "green dps" but god forbid we get more than one attack and a dot. Why can't we have "red healer" and "blue healer" for the sake of fun challenges by experienced people?

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they've done no tank runs before you can easily find a bunch of them.

guess we should start a tank strike.

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Originally Posted by Moqi

And yet this kind of challenge always seems to be "no healer" instead of "no DPS" or "no tank" (and yes I am aware that there's been some tank only clears). But let's keep pretending it's not a symptom of how bad healers are when we can have "green tank" and "green dps" but god forbid we get more than one attack and a dot. Why can't we have "red healer" and "blue healer" for the sake of fun challenges by experienced people?

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I'm not sure how you can say this challenge always seems to be no healer whilst immediately following with the fact that you're aware that no tank runs exist but don't elaborate on why that doesn't contradict your "always" for the healer point.

Not to mention "no DPS" requires replacing four people rather than two and there are clears of some Ultimate's and Savages that are missing one to two DPS, it is just not very common since even for a challenge it doesn't make sense to replace a damage, it's not as impressive as replacing a healer or tank.

Only the forums would complain about how stale and easy healers have become whilst completely ignoring content that is supposed to challenge your ability, I would say "Have you even tried to do a 3-healer comp, to be the one to actually take on that challenge" but it'd be more accurate to ask "Have you even tried an Ultimate?" at this point.

Weren't those no tank/dps clears were done after said ults are no longer current patch? These are the no healer clears that's done when said ults were released within same patch. I.e. TOP and FRU.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Weren't those no tank/dps clears were done after said ults are no longer current patch? These are the no healer clears that's done when said ults were released within same patch. I.e. TOP and FRU.

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Solo healer runs are more common for the current ultimates, I would think

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Weren't those no tank/dps clears were done after said ults are no longer current patch? These are the no healer clears that's done when said ults were released within same patch. I.e. TOP and FRU.

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UCOB and UWU specifically have been thoroughly eviscerated by job reworks and incomplete down synching. I dont think a no tank or a no dps clear are mathematically possible on FRU at this point.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Solo healer runs are more common for the current ultimates, I would think

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I recall DSR was solo-healed current patch by an AST, although the main 'difficulty' from what I understood back in that time was a particular mechanic that threw invisible healer stack marker (meaning 1 other stack will go to 1 random player) so they had about 17+ tries to get a good RNG to survive through that one mechanic alone.

That two latest ults (TOP and FRU) were probably the only ones that gets cleared on-patch without healers.

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Originally Posted by flowerkatie

I'm not sure how you can say this challenge always seems to be no healer whilst immediately following with the fact that you're aware that no tank runs exist but don't elaborate on why that doesn't contradict your "always" for the healer point.

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Becuase normally you'd expect for a generalization to have exemptions and still be considered valid but knowing the local fauna I know you'd go "umm akshually" if I didn't say it. It's common sense but well... you can go make friends with that "53% is technically majority" gal on the other thread lol, you'd get along.

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it is just not very common since even for a challenge it doesn't make sense to replace a damage, it's not as impressive as replacing a healer or tank.

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Not impressive or just plain boring because healer DPS rotation is boring as hell?

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Only the forums would complain about how stale and easy healers have become whilst completely ignoring content that is supposed to challenge your ability

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Is Ultimate content the only content that is allowed to not be stale? What are you even saying lol. Of course I'm not doing Ultimate, I've got better things to do than sub for 2 fights per expansion.

I see we're back to that time of the year where we get people coming in to stalk the logs of everyone and pretend they know the entire raiding history of everyone in the room while calling everyone bad and telling them to go do ultimates.

Must be another day that ends in y.

I think what's most disappointing about FRU healerless, is that they promised "7.0 encounter design, 8.0 job design", and yet what is supposed to be the crown jewel of encounter design has no space for healers. Ex1, M2s, and M3s all were great fights to heal a decent DOT that never expired, counter attack damage that increased based on hearts, meaning some players got hit harder than others, and just varied and constant raid wides. Then you look at the rest of the fights and it's a raid wide every two minutes, AA cheese in ex 3, and FRU being possible without healers. SE was so close to actually putting a band aid on the problem, but they only pushed the cotton down, none of the adhesive, and it's fallen off.

I do remember reading of a "healer only" clear of something or other and tanks saying to the effect of "See? There's no issue here."

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

I do remember reading of a "healer only" clear of something or other and tanks saying to the effect of "See? There's no issue here."

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How will tanks ever recover from the Healer only clear of Aurum Vale?

So how's the healer strike going? How many healers are actually "on strike" ?

It was EX1 and EX2, in gear available at the time (eg, limited to EX1 weapons/EX2 accessories/I700 leftside from tomes)

But comparing an EX trial (on content) to an Ultimate (on content) seems a little disingenuous to me. Besides, 'Healerless Ult is a problem' and 'Tankless EX trial is a problem', and '<role>-less <content> is a problem' for that matter, are not mutually exclusive statements. Don't be the player who tries to justify this situation by saying 'yeh but <content> was cleared without <role>', we should be expecting better from SE, and saying 'yeh, AND <content> was cleared without <role> too, SE you should fix that while you're at it'. None of us get a better game from drawing up false equivalences between content difficulty levels, or excusing shoddy design because 'well this other example happened to one of the other roles', that this kind of thing happens to any role is the problem.

If an Ultimate was clearable, on content, with no Tanks, we'd give SE hell for having such limp boss damage and zero tankbusters.
If an Ultimate was clearable, on content, with no DPS, we'd give SE hell for having such limp DPS checks. We even saw it this tier in Savage, that the DPS checks were lenient and people complained that it was too easy.

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Originally Posted by Hallarem

So how's the healer strike going? How many healers are actually "on strike" ?

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Considering that some of the influencers who go to the Media Tours, the people that SE give incentives to and ask them to 'say nice things about our game please', picked up on it, have discussed the topic on streams, made videos about their experience with DT healing (videos which Y-P says he watches), and even multiple who've said 'I'm not healing as much now because it's not fun for me for XYZ reason' (often with some underlying tone of 'I miss SB SCH, pls bring it back'), yeh, I'd say it's going alright.

It's kinda up to SE now though, because like, what can we do more than what we've done? Us players can identify problems, come up with ideas on how to fix them, come up with new systems for Healers to interact with in gameplay, etc. But at the end of the day it's the devs at SE that implement the changes (or not). If they decide that 'Actually, our vision for SCH is that 'optimal gameplay' should be 'press Broil 22 times a minute'', then no amount of me posting about ways to reduce that 22 Broils to something a bit less ridiculous (for example, an idea of mine got it down to 15.5 which is still not-great, but anything's better than 22), is going to change anything

I want to point out that the all tank run of UCoB was only doable in ShB because GNB can output DPS-level damage at lv70. The no tank run of also UCoB was done in EW. The only all healer run I managed to find was a 24 healer run of Ridorana Lighthouse.

Notice how none of the runs where you drop the tank or DPS role was done in ultimate content on the same patch it released. Seems to only be happening to the healer role, funny that.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I want to point out that the all tank run of UCoB was only doable in ShB because GNB can output DPS-level damage at lv70. The no tank run of also UCoB was done in EW. The only all healer run I managed to find was a 24 healer run of Ridorana Lighthouse.

Notice how none of the runs where you drop the tank or DPS role was done in ultimate content on the same patch it released. Seems to only be happening to the healer role, funny that.

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Would healer mains be happy if you gave healers the same damage output as tanks?

My "wild" take is give healers and tanks the same damage (though give healers more dps buttons), while increasing their mitigation skills while reducing tanks stacked mitigations and even nerfing the passive mitigation on tanks if possible.

Maybe then healers can clear with no tanks and we go full circle to a tank strike! But I like tanks and healers both having strong support options, I don't really just want to nerf tank support abilities and call it a day personally.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Would healer mains be happy if you gave healers the same damage output as tanks?

My "wild" take is give healers and tanks the same damage (though give healers more dps buttons), while increasing their mitigation skills while reducing tanks stacked mitigations and even nerfing the passive mitigation on tanks if possible.

Maybe then healers can clear with no tanks and we go full circle to a tank strike! But I like tanks and healers both having strong support options, I don't really just want to nerf tank support abilities and call it a day personally.

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I think some healers might be happy if we did the same damage as tanks. However, as was eventually agreed (by most) in the tank forum thread 1 and thread 2, just nerfing tank sustain is not the answer. I hold, per statements in those threads, that reducing tank sustain is part of the solution in that tanks should die when unsupported by a healer but that a bigger part of the solution is to make NPC damage output actually valid. I've done enough duties to see tanks steamroll everything in their path, in EW I've actively challenged a WAR main friend of mine to heal the entire party for me and they can which is insane and completely beyond the purview of tanks in my view. I've also had the reverse, where tanks pull W2W with no mits and sometimes missing entire gear slots and I have to tank by proxy, is that satisfying? Does it come with a sense of achievement? Hell yes! Should it be a thing? No. Content should put out enough damage to justify both tank and healer kits, we were told that in DT that was going to be a thing, alas, we have been lied to again.

Some of the most fun I have in this game is in Stone Vigil and Pharos Sirius, Bardam's mettle and Doma Castle also have their moments, because they do allow tanks to pull more than their kits alone can handle and healers then actually have to heal and it's great. I want to see NPCs actually be a threat to tanks, I wanna see trash mobs have vulns and stuff again so tanks (and healers) can't just stand in the middle of the pack and shrug everything off, I wanna see tank busters have another 50-100% damage on top of what they do now, maybe up to 200% make tanks mit for them or die and make them a real concern for healers in the process. I know some people will say "Oh WoW healing" I don't know if I want WoW healing, I've never played it, but I do want my dps filler to be a filler and a reward again for being good at healing, not for healing to be my reward for the tank being incompetent.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

Snip

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I'll give my view on where I want tanks and healers which maybe vastly different from the norm, because I unironically play tanks because I enjoy supporting my team in more ways that aren't just "press mitigation button and aggro boss" (though I'll admit its fun to have aggro and feel like the "main character" its not why I in particular play tank), I do know the common response will be "so why not play healer then?" this is mostly because none of the healers are melee and don't really appeal to me, with ff14's design I doubt they will ever make a healer role that appeals to me.

But the way I see it is I want Tanks and healers largely to fill that "Support" role, Not to say tanks or healers should just replace one another but I think some cross over in mitigation, healing ect. Is healthy, I just think currently tanks are too good at mitigation that they don't really need any help from healers, I'd honestly remove skills like Rampart, weaken guardian ect. In trade for strong mitigative abilities for skills like aquaveil ect, giving healers more to do in terms of damage and having a pretty much equal damage level to tanks.

Theirs some cases where self healing tools need to be toned down, I'll point out warrior takes this too far pretty much every cooldown it has, has a heal attached to it, which is fine if its one or two skills but not when its warriors entire defensive kit, even holy blades healing on paladin could be removed/weaker, but at the same time when I'm tank i really enjoy contributing to my team by using cooldowns such as passage, veil, intervention to save a ally or give the MT a regen and mit, I think it would be a shame to remove these aspects I like about tanks.

I guess I'm unironically advocating for Tanks and healers to be more closer in design, but I think actually making tanks more weaker at tanking and self survivability but still decent at supporting would give healers more to heal and mitigate in all forms of content.

Last thing is I don't think healers would be as upset about this clear 4 tanks 4 dps, if healers could also do it with 4 healers 4 dps. Maybe I'm wrong on that though.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Would healer mains be happy if you gave healers the same damage output as tanks?

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There's a world of difference between 'make Healers do the same damage output as Tanks' and 'make Healers have a damage kit that has more buttons'. We don't need to deal Tank damage, and in fact, I'd argue that such a request would be detrimental to the role, not a benefit. When WHM was able to compete (and occasionally outdo) Tank damage in SHB, the Tank players were not happy. It was the reason we have the term 'Glare Mage', because people focused so much on doing their damage instead of their role's objective (heal party members), mainly due to Lilies being a 'damage loss' at the time. And it wouldn't actually fix the issue. Sure, you can boost Glare's potency from 330 to 360, and now WHM does the same damage as a Tank. But the problem is that 75% of your GCDs are Glare, and that hasn't changed. If anything, the problem's now worse, because missing a cast of Glare is now even more of an impact on your damage (compared to the current values)

Instead, we can look at 'more damage buttons, to deal the same damage', and it could be argued that 'what's the point of pressing 5 buttons in the rotation, to do the damage we do now with 1 button?' I find that to be a disingenuous take, however, as I'd be able to follow it up with 'you are correct, so let's remove every damage button from WAR, except for Storm's Eye (applies buff for 30s, akin to the DOT on Healers) and Fell Cleave (spam action)'. It'd feel awful to play, and Fell Cleave would lose all of its impact 'feeling' because of how often it's used. We can instead look at a solution where, while the Healer has more buttons, those 'more buttons' are not necessarily mandatory to use in the rotation.

Let's take a SCH. Broil is 310p, Biolysis is 750p over its duration. So, 2 Biolysis and 22 Broils per minute gives us a total damage output of 8320p per minute. So, if we tune the potencies such that 'spam Broil and nothing else' is roughly 8320p per minute, then we can add however much extra buttons to press, so long as their potencies are tuned such that they're close to Broil's output. Here's some example maths to illustrate what I mean:

Broil: 340p
Biolysis (30s): 70p on cast, 30p per tick, 370p total
Miasmalysis (24s): 280p on cast, 10p per tick, 360p total (this is a replacement/upgrade for Ruin 2)
Shadowflare (15s): 100p on cast, 50p per tick, 350p total (this is an AOE puddle)

With these potencies, simply spamming Broil for 24 out of the 24 GCDs per minute would be 99% of the effectiveness of the current Dawntrail SCH's GCD output (and that includes DT SCH having to use Biolysis). The difference between '24/24 Broils' and 'using the DOTs perfectly and not missing a single tick of any of them' would be about 2%. The DOTs would be effectively 'ignoreable' for players who aren't seeking to do parse runs, and because of that 'ignoreable'-ness, they can be used instead as mobility actions to keep your damage rolling while running around, since they're instantcast.

The above example would take a SCH from using 22 Broils per minute, to 15.5 Broils per minute (the decimal is due to getting 5 Miasmalysis per 2min) if they want to interact with all of the DOTs. But for a player who does not want to DOT, they can simply ignore the DOTs entirely and still clear literally every DPS check currently in the game. In fact, they'd potentially find it easier to clear those checks, because if they use Miasmalysis only at the times they'd currently use Ruin2, the on-hit potency of Miasmalysis listed here is higher than Ruin2 (which is currently at 220p).

Lastly, damage actions, and how we deal damage, are a great way to differentiate the Healers from one another in terms of gameplay. When our role is so one-note (or two-note, more accurately, 1: heal HP bar and 2: mitigate damage to prevent instant die), it can make the Healer tools feel very samey, which is a large aspect to the criticism of the current design philosophy. There's very little difference between Dia, Combust, Biolysis and Eukrasian Dosis, they're all DOTs that last 30s. None of them have any interplay with the rest of the kit. Then we have a filler action (Glare/Malefic/Dosis/Broil) and they all have 1.5s cast times, 2.5s recast times, cost 400mp. SCH/SGE are especially egregious for this, with so many actions having not only similar functions, but even occasionally identical potencies, CDs and even learn levels (Ixochole/Indom, Physis/Whispering Dawn, Pepsis/Emergency Tactics). With more variety in the damage kit, we could instead differentiate the way that the healers feel to play via their damage contribution methods, rather than 'how they heal' (since that design space seems all tapped out).

As examples, here's what I'd do for each:

WHM: Banks damage via GCD healing actions like Rapture/Solace (and another system I'd add). Unleash banked damage for a cataclysmic burst in 2min window with Misery, Quake, Flood, Tornado.
SCH: Outmaneuvers enemies with strategies, and debilitates them with multiple DOT effects. Exploits weaknesses via Chain Stratagem, which can be spread (along with the DOTs) via Bane returning to us.
AST: Has the current simple 'one nuke, one DOT' gameplay, but supplements it with a much more interactive Card system. A heavier focus on buffing allies and manipulating card effects, rather than direct damage.
SGE: Reworks to several actions to make Kardia a bigger part of our gameplay (making it AOE, converting the healing into barrier, etc). Spending Kardia Augments allows you to access a RPR/MCH-esque 'fast attack' burst phase.

With this, it doesn't matter that SCH and SGE have so much overlap in their healing kits. Becuase SCH's gameplay (when trying to optimize, remember the extra damage buttons are optional!) would be DOT focused, and SGE's would be more about overwhelming enemies with a much faster rate of attack. WHM and AST would feel more different, not just because WHM has direct healing and AST has to worry about 'delayed healing' (eg Star growing after 10s), but because WHM (when optimizing, optional) is focused on trying to have all of their 'damage refund abilities' prepared when they go into the 2min window, and AST is focused on playing Cards, manipulating them to be favourable, empowering them with a reworked/returned Royal Road (eg replace the 'AOE' effect cos it's OP), etc. It'd have a lot more chance to appeal to somebody's gameplay preferences. If someone's a big fan of DOT gameplay, they currently don't have anything that really scratches that itch (BRD DOTs being 'press IJ once per 45s' doesn't count, SMN got reworked, every Healer has only 1 DOT), but with this, they'd have SCH as an option, and any SCHs who don't want DOT gameplay, could just... not press the DOTs and still clear everything in the game just fine. A player who 'doesn't want to do damage, they want to focus on healing', can get a more satisfying experience from the AST, as it has far more gameplay centred around buffing allies, which reduces how often they have to use Malefic.

If SE wants to attract a DPS player to the role, having a second SCH with SGE might work a little bit, due to aesthetics, or 'you don't have to fight the faerie clunk', etc. But, I'd argue that 'this Healer has an APM that rivals even RPR and MNK' would be a much bigger draw for a DPS player to try. It might get some players spooked that it's 'too fast', but then there's other Healer options that are slower-paced like WHM. With the current setup, there's nowhere in the Healer role for an APM enjoyer to go, they're all slow (especially now that AST has been reworked again). Diversify the playstyles of the Healers and how they deal their damage, and we'd have a wider net cast to attract players to pick up the role. And it'd make reclearing content feel a lot more different between each, thereby extending the lifespan of said content somewhat.



Long post, yes, but TLDR: having our damage increased to be equal to Tanks doesn't solve anything, increasing variety in our damage rotation opens up a lot of design space, space that lets the healers feel more distinct/different from one another in their gameplay

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

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I think we're broadly in agreement. I too think it would be a waste to remove the party support elements of tank kits, there are times after all where the healer is preoccupied and someone's near death experience goes unnoticed, having a tank able to step in with cover/TBN/aurora/nascent flash (not healing the WAR as well because that's just stupid, SE) is good party design. Similarly having partywide mit OR shield OR heal (looking at you PLD/WAR) is also good party design and helpful to a healer without replacing them, I like good party interactions and if the tank wants to save me an oGCD or better a GCD then great, thank you.

My main problem with tanks though, as I said above is their self sustain more than their party sustain, and I don't want to remove that feeling of power or the agency that a tank has. I would be okay with Rampart being 30% mit plus 20% additional healing received if the content did enough damage to justify that, same thing with Guardian, I don't mind 40% mit plus some shield if there is some tank buster or something that validates it. So for me, weakening some things, particularly in the WAR healing department (someone suggested making things like Bloodwhetting's heal add shield HP instead and I think that could work, especially if it used a buff slot and had limited stacks similar to how Haima works) but more importantly increasing incoming damage by orders of magnitude to actually make the power that tanks and healers already have justifiable.

Further to the "it's not just tanks that are unduly powerful" argument, how often in 8-man content do you see a SCH or a SGE make their AST/WHM co-healer unnecessary? I see it all the time, I don't see it as a job design problem per se, I see it more as an encounter design problem, if you're going to have two tanks and two healers, all four of those players should be active participants, not two of them active and two on the bench waiting for their counterpart to screw up.

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Last thing is I don't think healers would be as upset about this clear 4 tanks 4 dps, if healers could also do it with 4 healers 4 dps. Maybe I'm wrong on that though.

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Personally, I would be upset about such a thing occuring. Tanks should be required to survive the Tankbusters. Healers should be required to keep the party's HP above zero. DPS should be required to have enough damage contribution from the party to beat the fight in time. All three roles should be as required as one another IMO

As for the Tank stuff, I've been thinking for a while about Critical Hits vs Tanks. Back in HW/SB, attacks could crit us. In fact, in those older contents, they still can. You can see this with certain 'guaranteed to Crit' attacks like Diabolos Hollow, or TBs like Shinryu EX's Tera Slash. We had a tool to prevent Crits from getting us, Awareness, but it had a pretty long CD. It especially harmed PLD, because the game checks to see if the attack is a Crit before it checks if it's Blocked, so a Crit would pierce Sheltron. It also wasn't great for WAR with their Raw Intuition (guaranteed parry from front), but that was a much longer CD

So I thought a while back, what if we had an additional effect added to Barriers, wherein 'if you have a Barrier applied, the attack cannot Crit'? The more I think about it, the more interesting the idea seems to me. SCH and SGE would be able to negate the crit using Adloquium/E.Diagnosis, and WHM/AST have Benison/Celestial Intersection on pretty short CDs, giving all of the Healers a way to quickly handle negating the Crit. Additionally, because WHM/AST's tool is not only 'available pretty often' but also an OGCD, it makes their 'Crit Negation' tool more valuable compared to using an Adlo/E.Diag, thereby giving Pure Healers a niche where they excel over Barrier Healers (a bit ironic, since it's Barrier related), which helps to prevent SCH/SGE being so strong a comp

IDK, I think that 'removing problem entirely' isn't always the best solution. Rather than removing the problem entirely (Crit autoattacks hurt), I think it feels better sometimes to have the problem, but give the players the tools to overcome the problem. Crit Autoattacks hurt, and Crit Tankbusters do a ton of damage. But if the player can use something to 'outplay the developers', eg by using a Benison to block and negate the Critical aspect of the hit, it feels much more satisfying to the player, than the developers simply saying 'ok it's not a Crit anymore'