[Pole] Do you want to see the summoner class reworked?

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Originally Posted by Kyroc

I main smn in SCoB and now FCoB. I enjoy the way it plays and would not like it to be reworked from the ground up. Sure it could use some tweaks and QoL improvements, but so could every job.

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Thank you for your input, however i reject your input in favor of my own.o_o

/standardffxivforumposter

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

Thank you for your input, however i reject your input in favor of my own.o_o

/standardffxivforumposter

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I don't know if you're being sarcastic, a smart ass or trying to be funny but I at least play the class at its highest level. My opinion has just as much weight, if not more, than yours :P

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Originally Posted by Kyroc

I don't know if you're being sarcastic, a smart ass or trying to be funny but I at least play the class at its highest level. My opinion has just as much weight, if not more, than yours :P

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....Y_Y....
/bowsbeforeyourflawlessresponse

Edit: However i still think your opinion is wrong and my opinion is more correct than yours....somehow.
/standardffxivforumposter

Editing Edit:While i am at it I will attack your credibility for any mistakes you have made in the past to somehow make your opinion less desirable in face of my own.

Editorial editing of edits: You have received more upvotes than me...your opinion must be more correct than mine! Congratulations! *confetti*

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Originally Posted by Delily

From what I have been told, the the design team actively decided against because, partially, it was too passive. They wanted the focus to be on the warrior of light, not his pets. Also, there's a problem whereby once the pet is gone, you're useless. The FFXI version would not work here because there are not subjobs that provide skills that can be used when pets are either not summoned or on cooldown.

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But as a summoner ... the focus is supposed to be on your summons.

FFX's Aeons are huge awe-inspiring powerful creatures while their summoners are just people with weird dress sense.

The "no pet = useless" is easy to fix. As I suggested in #983, have the summons be "temporary", i.e. they are instantly summoned with no CD and are active as long as the SMN has mana to maintain the summon. The SMN player's job would be to manage their mana, balancing the use of mana-draining abilities of their summons and their mana restoration abilities.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

It's more like, "let's force all the current Summoners to relearn their class from the ground up".

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They had SMN players do that when FFXIV's SMN is nothing like FFXI's SMN.

>.>

Just saying.

On a side note, I'm not particularly happy with SMN nor ACN being Warlock-type classes.

Warlock's design is flawed IMHO, it even got overhauled last expansion and is still being tweaked.

The multitudes of pets is an illusion. Players normally end up favouring one and ignoring the rest. The high cost of switching pets, another relic from WoW, only further enforces this.

IMHO,

SMN

SMN should be summon focused, with easily "switchable" and "temporary"[1] summons - like described in #1008 - being your weapon with which you fight.

ACN

ACN should have the Carbuncle as a "support" pet whose off-the-ACN's-GCD abilities are part of their damage rotation, where the Carbuncles set up the the "combo" and the ACN puts in the finishing touches. A tag team of sorts.[2]

[1]Summons are weapons, having them out all the time is like walking everywhere with your sword drawn.

[2]Only need one Carbuncle for that. Maybe leave the Topaz as a cosmetic option acquired via quests.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

They had SMN players do that when FFXIV's SMN is nothing like FFXI's SMN.

>.>

Just saying.

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Except FFXI is irrelevant here.

Your argument *might* have weight if it was FFXIV 1.0 to FFXIV 2.0 that there was a massive overhaul in the class. Changing people who are playing SMN right now, into something vastly different would be asinine. However, I can't completely count it out because wildcards do exist.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

They had SMN players do that when FFXIV's SMN is nothing like FFXI's SMN.

>.>

Just saying.

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But what is that really saying anyway? This is a completely different game. In noway is playing 11 a requirement to play 14, and beyond that, Summoners have been wildly different from one FF to the next. The key difference here is that not even considering SCH, but a SMN reboot would be talking about Players having to learn to replay their Job within the same game. Saying while 11 and 14 played different just evokes "Well yes, they are different games."

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

FFX's Aeons are huge awe-inspiring powerful creatures while their summoners are just people with weird dress sense.

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That is a single-player, turn based game. How would cutscene summons with huge character models fit into FFXIV's battle system. There is no pause in action to allow for the cutscenes, and other players need to be able to see, which would make massively large Summons only a hindrance.

"Awe-inspiring" and "Powerful" are also highly subjective. I could believe for example, in the context of FFX, that Quick Attack + Haste with an honorable mention to Steal for acquiring lock stones are awe-inspiring and powerful. Cause taking 40+ attacks before the enemy, be they random encounter or boss, got even one, is exquisite.

Summoner's summoning huge Demi Gods to aide them in battle for us is the one constant in the Final Fantasy series. I don't think the Summoner and Arcanist should be based on the Warlock model because it's flawed and unpopular at higher levels look at what happened after WoW Cataclysm Expansion the Warlock got destroyed and their population declined because other classes became vastly more powerful and easier to use doing the level cap raise.

The issue is DoT based classes at higher levels require an insane amount of skill to even get close to or the same amount of damage as other dps classes which happens in every MMO.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Summoner's summoning huge Demi Gods to aide them in battle for us is the one constant in the Final Fantasy series. I don't think the Summoner and Arcanist should be based on the Warlock model because it's flawed and unpopular at higher levels look at what happened after WoW Cataclysm Expansion the Warlock got destroyed and their population declined because other classes became vastly more powerful and easier to use doing the level cap raise.

The issue is DoT based classes at higher levels require an insane amount of skill to even get close to or the same amount of damage as other dps classes which happens in every MMO.

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You said this another thread:

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Originally Posted by Akiza

In WoW every class specialization is viable because they function in a role and play radically different from each other with different mechanics. Players don't build their own class they just choose a tree to specialize in so it makes it easier to put in hybrid and support classes. In order to keep the class system SE has to either add polarity between the Classes or Jobs by further specializing the Job system and Classes or scrap the Class system and simply have Jobs.

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So which is it? Is every class spec viable in WoW or not?

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

FFX's Aeons are huge awe-inspiring powerful creatures while their summoners are just people with weird dress sense.

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When you summoned them, the entire party disappeared. That wouldn't quite work in FFXIV. Also, Yuna herself was a white mage, and ultimately, the only thing the summons were good at was burst damage in boss fights when Yuna was in Overdrive. Once she got Holy and her ultimate weapon, there was almost no reason to summon unless you needed sacrificial lambs. So much for awe-inspiring.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Summoner's summoning huge Demi Gods to aide them in battle for us is the one constant in the Final Fantasy series. I don't think the Summoner and Arcanist should be based on the Warlock model because it's flawed and unpopular at higher levels look at what happened after WoW Cataclysm Expansion the Warlock got destroyed and their population declined because other classes became vastly more powerful and easier to use doing the level cap raise.

The issue is DoT based classes at higher levels require an insane amount of skill to even get close to or the same amount of damage as other dps classes which happens in every MMO.

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The only time a summoner's summons have been demi-gods has been FFXI.

And have you ever played a warlock, much less WoW itself? Warlocks have never been a popular class for a myriad of reasons (namely in 1.0 they were bad), but the core design of both Affliction and Destruction is solid. Demonology was unfocused until the devs settled on Metamorphosis as the key mechanic for the spec. The roller coaster warlocks are on has always been the fact that WoW strives to balance the game for both PvE and PvP. The legendary "Fear + DoT" combo is great in PvE, but not so much in PvP because people lose control and /ragequit.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

On a side note, I'm not particularly happy with SMN nor ACN being Warlock-type classes.

Warlock's design is flawed IMHO, it even got overhauled last expansion and is still being tweaked.

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I can honestly say you're wrong. You may not like it, but's it not flawed. The MoP revamp was done to help streamline the class and get rid of some of the clunkier mechanics, but speaking as someone who has played all 3 specs extensively since 2.0, the only flaw of the class is that Blizzard keeps trying to balance them for PvE and PvP. All 3 specs are solid despite the roller coaster ride that all classes go through.

delily don't look at it literary, when someone says like yuna, they probably mean summons that yuna has, not her entire character and battlefield things, so no he probably ment for party not to disappear, like they don't disappear in ffxi, and warlock was good in wow, but personally i don't want summoner to be compared to warlock, yes they both are a dot class, but i would want summoner to be more final fantasy-ish and not a plain warlock class from other games

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Originally Posted by Soralis

delily don't look at it literary, when someone says like yuna, they probably mean summons that yuna has, not her entire character and battlefield things, so no he probably ment for party not to disappear, like they don't disappear in ffxi, and warlock was good in wow, but personally i don't want summoner to be compared to warlock, yes they both are a dot class, but i would want summoner to be more final fantasy-ish and not a plain warlock class from other games

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When people say they want an FF summoner, what they really mean is they want an FFXI summoner. Other than summoning, the role and abilities of summoners have changed from game to game. Also, when people say warlock, they really mean Affliction warlock, completely ignoring Demonology and Destruction. DoTs play into a warlocks spec, yes, but the accurate description of them would be the "enemies of all life" since they are the only class that uses all 3 of the "forbidden" spell lines in WoW's lore.

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Originally Posted by Soralis

...personally i don't want summoner to be compared to warlock, yes they both are a dot class, but i would want summoner to be more final fantasy-ish and not a plain warlock class from other games

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Summoner is rarely represented the same in any FF though. However the biggest hurdle is; how could a single-player version of Summoner work in an MMO with fast paced, dodge heavy, and mechanic-driven combat.

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Originally Posted by Delily

When you summoned them, the entire party disappeared. That wouldn't quite work in FFXIV.

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No need for anyone to disappear. The summon will just be how the SMN does damage/tank.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

However the biggest hurdle is; how could a single-player version of Summoner work in an MMO with fast paced, dodge heavy, and mechanic-driven combat.

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The SMN dodges as normal with various abilities given to him to keep the summon alive.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

No need for anyone to disappear. The summon will just be how the SMN does damage/tank.

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And if the egi is KOed there goes 100% of your damage, followed by any hope of Summoners having spots in any decent party. Look at how lots of people are using Black Mage instead of Summoner on the Last Coil just because of the MP issues we have there, which isn't nearly as bad as the vulnerability we'd have with the bulk of the damage coming from the egi.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

The SMN dodges as normal with various abilities given to him to keep the summon alive.

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The only ability given to the summoner is Sustain, and that is not enough for what you're proposing. They'd have to make pets basically invincible.

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Originally Posted by Delily

I can honestly say you're wrong. You may not like it, but's it not flawed.

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Look at pets.

Every warlock can summon the 4 basic pets. But how many are actually useful? Blizzard has been trying to make all of them "viable". Tying each to a spec. Untying them from specs, giving each a "role". etc. They tried it all.

In the end it's down to "one pet" per specific situations depending on the state of the game. There is really no choice, it's an illusion.

High resummoning cost = can't switch mid combat = trapped with one pet during combat = player picking the best for their situation

You effectively only have one pet.

The cute part is, you don't have "one pet", you have many and they all have to work with the class's abilities. But close integration with class abilities is almost impossible with so many pets. Frost Mages that have only one pet arguably has the best pet integration.

FFXIV replicated the problem down to the last screw ...

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Originally Posted by BloodPact

And if the egi is KOed there goes 100% of your damage, followed by any hope of Summoners having spots in any decent party. Look at how lots of people are using Black Mage instead of Summoner on the Last Coil just because of the MP issues we have there, which isn't nearly as bad as the vulnerability we'd have with the bulk of the damage coming from the egi.



The only ability given to the summoner is Sustain, and that is not enough for what you're proposing. They'd have to make pets basically invincible.

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Yes ... lets apply the new idea in isolation, assuming no changes to the Job's supporting abilities ...

>.>

I have already said, summons should be instant but sap MP as long as they are out and when using the summon's abilities. The SMN's job is manage their mana - and of course they will be given tools to regen it.

Dot Based Jobs are mechanically broken and Underpowered at higher levels and have a low margin of error compared to other classes as well as mediocre damage for a lot of effort that's why they are unpopular. Pet Based Jobs are Over Powered and are easier to use from a mechanical stand point and easier to balance.
SE made the Summoner a DoT Based Job that is easy to play on paper but since DoT Jobs have a low margin of error and are mechanically broken they are hard to play in End Game Encounters. If SE made the Summoner a Pet Based Job it would be easier to use because they would have a high margin of error.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Yes ... lets apply the new idea in isolation, assuming no changes to the Job's supporting abilities ...

>.>

I have already said, summons should be instant but sap MP as long as they are out and when using the summon's abilities. The SMN's job is manage their mana - and of course they will be given tools to regen it.

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So, basically, let's stuff the summoner from FFXI into this game?

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Originally Posted by Akiza

Dot Based Jobs are mechanically broken and Underpowered at higher levels and have a low margin of error compared to other classes as well as mediocre damage for a lot of effort that's why they are unpopular. Pet Based Jobs are Over Powered and are easier to use from a mechanical stand point and easier to balance.
SE made the Summoner a DoT Based Job that is easy to play on paper but since DoT Jobs have a low margin of error and are mechanically broken they are hard to play in End Game Encounters. If SE made the Summoner a Pet Based Job it would be easier to use because they would have a high margin of error.

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Just. Stop. Posting. DoT based jobs are in no sense mechanically broken. They do require more attention and a different playstyle than other jobs, but to call them broken is just ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Look at pets.

Every warlock can summon the 4 basic pets. But how many are actually useful? Blizzard has been trying to make all of them "viable". Tying each to a spec. Untying them from specs, giving each a "role". etc. They tried it all.

In the end it's down to "one pet" per specific situations depending on the state of the game. There is really no choice, it's an illusion.

High resummoning cost = can't switch mid combat = trapped with one pet during combat = player picking the best for their situation

You effectively only have one pet.

The cute part is, you don't have "one pet", you have many and they all have to work with the class's abilities. But close integration with class abilities is almost impossible with so many pets. Frost Mages that have only one pet arguably has the best pet integration.

FFXIV replicated the problem down to the last screw ...

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The only time the choice would be an illusion would be if you simply use the same pet over and over, regardless of the situation (similar to garuda right now). You're advocating for changing pets during the fight, yet another hallmark of the FFXI summoner. Just come clean and say "I want the FFXI summoner".

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Originally Posted by Delily

Just. Stop. Posting. DoT based jobs are in no sense mechanically broken. They do require more attention and a different playstyle than other jobs, but to call them broken is just ridiculous.

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That's the problem DoT Based Jobs require more effort to play with little to no reward compared to other damage classes. The Summoner has the same problem that WoW has with the Warlock Elite Warlocks out dps average Warlocks by 80-100 dps because of the low margin of error it's the reason why it's unpopular in End Game Raids and PvE. I myself use my White Mage over the Summoner when it comes to End Game content because it's easier to get content done.

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Originally Posted by Delily

The only time the choice would be an illusion would be if you simply use the same pet over and over, regardless of the situation (similar to garuda right now). You're advocating for changing pets during the fight, yet another hallmark of the FFXI summoner. Just come clean and say "I want the FFXI summoner".

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Actually, I have never played FFXI ... >.>

I have played FFVI and FFX though. Summons are not "pets", they should not be following you around like a puppy. Summons are powerful creatures you summon at considerable cost to crush your enemies.

As for my commentary on WoW's warlocks, my point is, multiple pets don't work. They don't integrate well with the PC - very hard to design - and frequently end up as some "extra" to the class. The only time I have seen pets work well is if there is only one pet, e.g. Frost Mage.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

That's the problem DoT Based Jobs require more effort to play with little to no reward compared to other damage classes. The Summoner has the same problem that WoW has with the Warlock Elite Warlocks out dps average Warlocks by 80-100 dps because of the low margin of error it's the reason why it's unpopular in End Game Raids and PvE. I myself use my White Mage over the Summoner when it comes to End Game content because it's easier to get content done.

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For warlocks, your claims can only be applied to one spec: Affliction. Warlocks historically have never been a popular class. The maintenance of DoTs is one issue, but it's not the only issue. That has less to do with the design, and more to do with balance, the bane of all classes. Summoners may require more work, but the reward is that on movement based fights, we have a much easier time than black mages. Your last sentence has no bearing on the conversation, healers have a much faster time that damage dealers.

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Actually, I have never played FFXI ... >.>

I have played FFVI and FFX though. Summons are not "pets", they should not be following you around like a puppy. Summons are powerful creatures you summon at considerable cost to crush your enemies.

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Funny, considering everything you have stated is basically a description of the summoner in FFXI, which is what the majority of people who complain about the summoner are after. And you're whole "powerful creatures you summon" is just nonsense. If you want to get technical, our summons are not pets, they're minions. We don't care for them, we don't partake in training them, we simply call them forth from the aether and bind them to our will. Hence, they are summons.

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Originally Posted by Delily

Funny, considering everything you have stated is basically a description of the summoner in FFXI, which is what the majority of people who complain about the summoner are after. And you're whole "powerful creatures you summon" is just nonsense. If you want to get technical, our summons are not pets, they're minions. We don't care for them, we don't partake in training them, we simply call them forth from the aether and bind them to our will. Hence, they are summons.

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Again, I haven't played FFXI - but you can keep accusing me if you like. I'm mainly going by what I see in other FF games. I think a lot of people want that similar feel.

LOL. I don't see what so "technical" about your assertion.

All I know is Bahamut doesn't follow Yuna around like a puppy.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Actually, I have never played FFXI ... >.>

I have played FFVI and FFX though. Summons are not "pets", they should not be following you around like a puppy. Summons are powerful creatures you summon at considerable cost to crush your enemies.

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The term pet is widely used in MMOs. Classes / jobs who work with additional entities besides the character the player is controlling are called pet jobs, this is not meant to diminish the importance of the avatar/animal at your side.

The games that you played are single player games; like day and night comparison wise. Since you haven't played FFXI and coincidentally, a lot of the stuff you advocate for is what embodies the Summoner in that game you should take some time to go and read about the past of that job and how it was perceived by the playerbase. You'll find that your approach was already tested and although Summoner in XI has come some way (definitely not a long one) it's still not near any of the desired DPS jobs in there.

XIV's Summoner just works. The egi are not twice your size, Ifrit's Hellfire doesn't cover the entire screen like the Primal's attack does, yes to all of that, but it does well that was designed for.

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Again, I haven't played FFXI - but you can keep accusing me if you like. I'm mainly going by what I see in other FF games. I think a lot of people want that similar feel.

LOL. I don't see what so "technical" about your assertion.

All I know is Bahamut doesn't follow Yuna around like a puppy.

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I was not accusing you of playing FFXI. It just so happens that everything you have requested is present in the FFXI summoner, which the design team looked at and actively rejected. The pets versus minion arguments is mechanics. Since you seem to know about WoW, it's the difference between a hunter's pets and a warlock's demons. Hunters more interaction with their pet. Also, Bahamut may not follow Yuna around like puppy in the cut scence, but boy, when I told him to do his Overdrive attack against Seymour and then die, he sure didn't buck at that!

The had articles on why the Warlock from WoW was never popular. The Warlock didn't excel at anything and was mediocre in all areas. They had a low margin so it scared casual players away from it. Also the Warlock doesn't feel more powerful at higher level compared to other classes. SE replicated the same problems with the Summoner. The Summoner should be a Pet Based Job to have an Iconic Image. WoW Warlock has different tiers of Pets they have Minion Pets, Combat Pets and Guardian Pets while the Summoner only has one type of Pet. The only issue with the Warlock was it was the most hated class.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The had articles on why the Warlock from WoW was never popular. The Warlock didn't excel at anything and was mediocre in all areas. They had a low margin so it scared casual players away from it. Also the Warlock doesn't feel more powerful at higher level compared to other classes. SE replicated the same problems with the Summoner. The Summoner should be a Pet Based Job to have an Iconic Image. WoW Warlock has different tiers of Pets they have Minion Pets, Combat Pets and Guardian Pets while the Summoner only has one type of Pet. The only issue with the Warlock was it was the most hated class.

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Warlocks also have 3 different specs that play differently. Affliction is only one third of the class. The number of pets they have is irrelevant, what matters is how well those pets fulfilled their designated roles. We're also getting more egis in 3.0, so this argument is nonsensical. Also, with regards to your claims about warlocks and power levels, they were mediocre in 1.0. They have been on the same roller coaster as every other class. Demonology traditionally lags behind the other 2 specs, but since 2.0, warlocks have held their except when Blizzard pulls out the nerf bat and hits them hard, which they do to every other class. Your argument that DoTs require more maintenance and offer little in return has some merit, but that doesn't mean the class design itself is broken, it's more a sign that Blizzard is trying to make WoW 2 games - a PvE and PvP one. Warlocks are more than capable of holding their own with damage.

The only iconic thing about summoners is that they have summoned. The summons have gone from fancy casting animations (FFV), to partial party members (FFX), to full fledged party members (FFXI). The version in FFXIV is nothing more than an iteration on that basic theme of summoning something and using it to attack. If you don't like it, that's fine, but sitting here trying to say the designers should do X simply because that is how X was done in the past is inane.

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Originally Posted by Eggnook24

Idea:

An ability to siphon entire party's mana (aether) by 75% to summon an almost full primal for crazy spike damage, sort of an additional limit break. They would have to time it strategically so healers and PLD won't be out of commission. That would definitely be "Strategy" as per the lore, and make parties want a SMN for very specific turns.

I'm sure there's possible issues with this idea, but it could strengthen team-oriented gameplay, while utilizing lore and the demand for more power from the Summoners out there.

Anyway, just an idea.

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...nobody likes my idea? Wouldn't even be a rework of the job, and Akiza would stop posting all the time.

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Originally Posted by Eggnook24

...nobody likes my idea? Wouldn't even be a rework of the job, and Akiza would stop posting all the time.

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I dont think other classes, especially healers,would enjoy having their mana siphoned off

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Originally Posted by Eggnook24

...nobody likes my idea? Wouldn't even be a rework of the job, and Akiza would stop posting all the time.

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Why would it take mana up? Why not use limit break bars only? SE has hinted that more class specific Limit breaks are coming in 3.0.

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Originally Posted by Delily

Warlocks also have 3 different specs that play differently. Affliction is only one third of the class. The number of pets they have is irrelevant, what matters is how well those pets fulfilled their designated roles. We're also getting more egis in 3.0, so this argument is nonsensical. Also, with regards to your claims about warlocks and power levels, they were mediocre in 1.0. They have been on the same roller coaster as every other class. Demonology traditionally lags behind the other 2 specs, but since 2.0, warlocks have held their except when Blizzard pulls out the nerf bat and hits them hard, which they do to every other class. Your argument that DoTs require more maintenance and offer little in return has some merit, but that doesn't mean the class design itself is broken, it's more a sign that Blizzard is trying to make WoW 2 games - a PvE and PvP one. Warlocks are more than capable of holding their own with damage.

The only iconic thing about summoners is that they have summoned. The summons have gone from fancy casting animations (FFV), to partial party members (FFX), to full fledged party members (FFXI). The version in FFXIV is nothing more than an iteration on that basic theme of summoning something and using it to attack. If you don't like it, that's fine, but sitting here trying to say the designers should do X simply because that is how X was done in the past is inane.

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Whenever someone on this thread suggests that summoner should be like FF(insert#) i think it is implied that SE would translate those abilities or pets into the game using FFXIV's system. Saying FFXI or FFX wouldn't work is not even a argument since you are taking their ideas literally as if SE would literally take the exact coding from those games and apply it into FFXIV...at least that's what you appear to be thinking since you don't at all explain why it wouldn't work. FFXIV's battle system is not changing any time soon....so i don't really get your argument at all. I guess you just assume SE is stupid enough to not be able to balance new abilities that are more pet focused properly. It is my belief that SE had a limited amount of time to create arcanist/summoner and they wanted to get it done as soon as possible, therefore we got this half-assed version of summoner. It was the safe thing to do, rather than what they actually planned.

If we included FFXI's version of summoner it would translate basically to summoner having 1 or 2 extra cast-able abilities that would make their pet do damage exactly like enkindle does already. Pets already auto attack like in FFXI and summoners even have more control than they did over ffxi in terms of maneuvering your pet.

In all honesty the job wouldn't change that much in terms of game-play since summoner would still have a lot of it's abilities and they would probably get one new castable ability for a group buff to go along with enkindle. Enkindle and group buff would both be Blood pact rage/ward all over again. In the end pets would get more individual abilities for summoner to use, it wouldn't change the job that much just take a little extra to micromanaging of your pet. Honestly 1 extra ability to cast a buff that would last 30 mins really a big change? Are ffxiv and ffxi really that different in terms of micromanaging of pets?

Now if people want summons to cost mana ticks for having pets out... well.... i wouldn't exactly be for that unless pets really got a lot stronger, and i rather see just a chunk of mana cost per ability than a mana tic system like ffxi had.

The biggest change between FFXI and FFXIV is that ffxi had more individual abilities you could select for your pets when using blood pact. Having a few extra abilities for pets that you can choose wouldn't exactly be a bad thing, and according to the way FFXI worked all those abilities shared the same timer on that one ability.

I also don't buy the argument that if your pets dies you would lose significant dps , you just assume that SE would not add abilities in or balance stats to make pets more resilient so it would be up to the player's skill if the pet died or not. Add another ability like spur in and just have it increase def and Mdef significantly for a short time before a major AOE attack since most attacks are telegraphed out the arse in this game anyways.

Worst case scenario if your pet dies you just quickcast+summon, or SE would balance it to have shorter casting time for summoning...or you just wait those 6 seconds since pet dieing means your just a bad summoner and it is completely your fault since SE added in new utility/balance to make your pets more resilient.

You could still cast DOT's, however instead of casting ruin spells or shadow flare as much you would micromanage your pets a bit more and your single target attack damage would increase. In the end there is not a lot of fights that require AOE or even multiple bosses that require stacking DOT's on each, pets would not be changing target much at all anyways.

In the end your single target damage would increase a little bit and you wouldn't sacrifice your DOT's or any of your individual nukes while your waiting for your enkindle ability to recover from cooldown. However adding all this extra damage to 50 summoner would overpower it....however adding it to 60 summoner may not if other jobs get more powerful as well. I think we all know it is reasonable to assume that all jobs will get much more powerful at 60 let alone 70 or 80.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

*snip*

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If the Pet was 70% of your DPS, and it died you'd lose 70% of your DPS for the time it takes for you to get the pet back online, assuming a minimum of 1s. Let's clarify that DPS mean Damage Per Second, and every second missed is a substantial loss. This is the biggest reason the pet is not responsible for a greater DPS percentage for SMN.

The Pet also has no auto-attacks. Yes it uses skills automatically, but auto-attacks in the context of FFXIV are something completely different.

I fully understand you have no interest in playing SMN as it currently exists however the divide between what you can read about a Job and what you can learn from actually playing it is pretty wide when you're suggesting how a Job should, could, and will play.

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Originally Posted by dday3six

If the Pet was 70% of your DPS, and it died you'd lose 70% of your DPS for the time it takes for you to get the pet back online, assuming a minimum of 1s. Let's clarify that DPS mean Damage Per Second, and every second missed is a substantial loss. This is the biggest reason the pet is not responsible for a greater DPS percentage for SMN.

The Pet also has no auto-attacks. Yes it uses skills automatically, but auto-attacks in the context of FFXIV are something completely different.

I fully understand you have no interest in playing SMN as it currently exists however the divide between what you can read about a Job and what you can learn from actually playing it is pretty wide when you're suggesting how a Job should, could, and will play.

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Aren't you splitting hairs? My point still remains the same. Also why ignore the fact that i suggested that SE would balance it so pet would not die so easily and it would be up to skill of a summoner to keep it alive with new abilities?Isn't the whole point of pets is that it acts as an extra party member that you can revive WITHOUT weakness when stuff goes wrong?

If your pet dies with the new survival abilities then why would you deserve not to have your dps drop?

SE wouldn't use all of my ideas 1:1, they would find a way to implement it if they liked it. Not all my ideas need to be perfect for it to inspire SE to change up summoner a bit.

Just ignore the fact that my suggestion included having DOT's/ruin/shadowflare still as part of the job....ignore the survival abilities....ignore the potential DPS increase for entire party added buffs from pet that would only take a second to cast that would last long after pet died.

Ultimately you talk about DPS loss for even 1 second...however you would gain dps as well and as long as you were doing decent DPS that was balanced with everyone else even if stuff did go wrong because your pet did more damage. Why would it even matter if you lost a second or 2 because you failed to take care of your pet with instant cast survival abilities with local cool downs that wouldn't get in the way of your other abilities. Ultimately my idea puts the responsibility on the summoner to keep pet alive and a bad summoner would be a bad summoner.What MIGHT go wrong isn't a good excuse when you have abilities to stop it from dieing.

Why include pet at all if you are worried about your dps being gimped from pet dieing all the time? Currently pet does 30% damage, would you rather not have pet at all in it's current state because it might die? It is the same no matter what regardless if its a large portion or a small portion of damage, at least with my idea your pets would be more built for surviving.

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Originally Posted by Delily

The pets versus minion arguments is mechanics.

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Well, we aren't really talking about pet vs minion, but pet vs summon.

Summons are a appear-do-their-job-then-disappear kind of thing. Frequently very powerful and summoned at considerable cost.

Pets are ... pets. Kind of like your dog. It follows you around and gives you a hand.

I think a lot of SMN players prefer the former.

Kind of pathetic that Egi damage < PC damage. Very least they should do an equal amount of damage, i.e. they are the SMN's total damage; for balanced reasons of course.

Carbuncles can be pets. They are cute, few would mind them hanging around. Primal-Egis are mini Primals ... those don't exactly have a good rep in Ezorea ... Feels even weirder when doing beast tribe quests. >.>

Either way, I don't foresee SE making huge changes - they could surprise us though. Personally I hope they at least add back Carbuncles to SMN - with reasonable Potency attacks of course.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

Aren't you splitting hairs? My point still remains the same.

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No auto-attacks are completely different than skills. Look at any weapon. You'll see a stat for Auto-attack and Delay. There are skills which specific effect auto-attacks as well. You might be meaning that the Pet can automatically use skills but calling 'that' an auto-attack, is incorrect when there is a literal combat mechanic named auto-attack.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

Isn't the whole point of pets is that it acts as an extra party member that you can revive WITHOUT weakness when stuff goes wrong?

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Weakness is the 1m Debuff a PC gets when they are revived. No, having a pet will not make up for that. A Player is always meant to be greater than the Pet. However, I believe you meant without it negatively impacting a SMN/SCH's other duties, and in a small measure that is true. DOTs are also meant to do that. The caveat is however rarely will you see a SMN, SCH or WHM for that matter hardcast Resurrection or Raise. Swiftcast is almost exclusively how rez-ing is done. See Writer's Note

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

Also why ignore the fact that i suggested that SE would balance it so pet would not die so easily and it would be up to skill of a summoner to keep it alive with new abilities?

Just ignore the fact that my suggestion included having DOT's/ruin/shadowflare still as part of the job....ignore the survival abilities....ignore the potential DPS increase for entire party added buffs from pet that would only take a second to cast that would last long after pet died.

If your pet dies with the new survival abilities then why would you deserve not to have your dps drop?

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Do you think you could Tank, Heal, and DPS all at the same time? Even for all their damage mitigation, Tanks cannot eat all damage coming their way. They have higher Defense stats, more HP, Defense Cooldowns, on top of a Healer's mitigation and HP restoration, as well at times some mitigation from DPS. Nevertheless they still must dodge some fight mechanics.

Since you cannot control the pet at 1:1 input, and there's a delay before the Pet will even execute commands. Increased survivability would need to be akin to invincibility. At that point balance has left the building. See Writer's Note

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

Ultimately you talk about DPS loss for even 1 second...however you would gain dps as well and as long as you were doing decent DPS that was balanced with everyone else even if stuff did go wrong because your pet did more damage. Why would it even matter if you lost a second or 2 because you failed to take care of your pet with instant cast survival abilities with local cool downs that wouldn't get in the way of your other abilities. Ultimately my idea puts the responsibility on the summoner to keep pet alive and a bad summoner would be a bad summoner.What MIGHT go wrong isn't a good excuse when you have abilities to stop it from dieing.

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DPS literally means Damage Per Second. For DPS to be made up, there needs to be continual DPS at it's normal level on top of damage beyond that to make up for what is lost.

Your skills to keep the Pet alive would need to be god mode off GCD's on an extremely short CD. That is not a responsibility it's more like a cheat code. Hallowed Ground is not even 100% invincibility and it is on a 7m CD. See Writer's Note

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

Why include pet at all if you are worried about your dps being gimped from pet dieing all the time? Currently pet does 30% damage, would you rather not have pet at all in it's current state because it might die? It is the same no matter what regardless if its a large portion or a small portion of damage, at least with my idea your pets would be more built for surviving.

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30% != 70% The concern is massive DPS loss, not just any DPS loss. No DPS has 100% uptime fight mechanics alone make that impossible. They are however concerned with squeezing out as much damage as possible, but yes at least your idea includes god mode, that it does. See Writer's Note

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

SE wouldn't use all of my ideas 1:1, they would find a way to implement it if they liked it. Not all my ideas need to be perfect for it to inspire SE to change up summoner a bit.

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I'm not sure SE would be inclined to be inspired by anything you say with all the passive aggressive insults you slung at them of late. (Rushed, haphazard SMN and all) People tend to not respond positively to that sort of thing. Also if they don't have to directly implement your ideas why are you so concerned about me ignoring the increased survival skills?

Writer's Note

You continue to suggest ideas from limited scope, and as much as you want to pretend at is not an issue, that will not change that it is. Each See Writer's Note is an example of this. I am not trying to dissuade you from trying, I am trying to impress upon you how limited your scope actually is. You have clearly demonstrated minimum understanding of how Jobs function within their role, and how they interact with one another. How drastically fights change at end game and the fast paced nature of those encounters. Each Job is the sum of their whole, culminating at level 50. Your level 15 Arcanist, has barely scratched the surface of that journey..

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Originally Posted by Bishop81

Well, we aren't really talking about pet vs minion, but pet vs summon.

Summons are a appear-do-their-job-then-disappear kind of thing. Frequently very powerful and summoned at considerable cost.

Pets are ... pets. Kind of like your dog. It follows you around and gives you a hand.

I think a lot of SMN players prefer the former.

Kind of pathetic that Egi damage < PC damage. Very least they should do an equal amount of damage, i.e. they are the SMN's total damage; for balanced reasons of course.

Carbuncles can be pets. They are cute, few would mind them hanging around. Primal-Egis are mini Primals ... those don't exactly have a good rep in Ezorea ... Feels even weirder when doing beast tribe quests. >.>

Either way, I don't foresee SE making huge changes - they could surprise us though. Personally I hope they at least add back Carbuncles to SMN - with reasonable Potency attacks of course.

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Like it's been explained, FFXIV's Summoner and its summons are as valid and as Final Fantasyish as those in the other titles. For example: I very much dislike the mechanical summons in FFXIII, but I'd be lying to myself if I were to say those weren't really summons, they were more like machines because in that iteration they don't really stick to the core design of each of the avatars.

Summons, pets, minions, subcharacters, egi, mini-primals, little eikons, avatars, chibbys... Whichever word you are using refers to the same thing. OKing Carbuncle as a pet but not other summons is 100% your opinion. The fact is both are pets and both are summoned. Not saying you can't create your own extra lore to enjoy the game more, but for the sake of discussion it's better we stick to the facts.

And I think things will change. I see them making quite a few changes to Summoner (and the rest of the jobs at Heavensward release). With the addition of two(+?) new egi, there's an even bigger need to look at their balance. Things like shifting the Contagion effect to the Summoner as a skill/spell instead of an egi ability I'd say is likely; I don't see, however, radical changes that will change Summoner's style by a large margin.

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Originally Posted by Deliciou5

Whenever someone on this thread suggests that summoner should be like FF(insert#) i think it is implied that SE would translate those abilities or pets into the game using FFXIV's system. Saying FFXI or FFX wouldn't work is not even a argument since you are taking their ideas literally as if SE would literally take the exact coding from those games and apply it into FFXIV...at least that's what you appear to be thinking since you don't at all explain why it wouldn't work.

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First, I did explain why it wouldn't work, go look back. Second, the problem with your claim is that you seem to imply SE didn't look at the previous iterations when they designed the FFXIV summoner. They did, they rejected it, and the gave out explanations why. As dday3six's writer's note states, you keep looking at things from a limited scope, not seeing the whole picture. Before you start trying to "inspire" SE, you should realize that a good number of your suggestions were rejected by the team when they made the original implementation of the summoner.