Hissatsu: Kaiten

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

This bothers me more than the change to SAM specifically. And part of it is due to hardcore players insisting on set rotations and syncing up burst windows, and the devs responding by making fights even more scripted to a timer and moving even more jobs toward 1 or 2 minute burst rotations.

That bores me. I want reactionary gameplay, not a piece of music I have to memorize. I want to actually feel good for making immediate choices, not feel bad for not being perfectly in sync with a bunch of drones. But people treated the game that way and it has become the dominant paradigm.

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imagine blaming 'hardcore' players for these issues
lol
lmao

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

I have to stop moving for Ten Chi Jen and if I do move, the rotation is thrown off because I miss the Sulton at the end. It's way more punishing than Midare and has the exact same stipulation of being unable to move but at least all I do with Midare is delay the skill a second or two. You're argument that Midare is some sort of stutter is asinine. I don't even play SAM or NIN and I can tell you, I much prefer SAM's "stutter" to NIN's Ten Chi Jen any day of the week.

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Too be frank, hadn't played Nin in a while and completely forgot that "Ten Chi Jen" was the name of that skill, and it does feel annoying having to stand still to use it. Still it's only once every 2 min and every 2nd burst, compared to Sam which has to deal with it's annoyance every 20ish second.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

This bothers me more than the change to SAM specifically. And part of it is due to hardcore players insisting on set rotations and syncing up burst windows, and the devs responding by making fights even more scripted to a timer and moving even more jobs toward 1 or 2 minute burst rotations.

That bores me. I want reactionary gameplay, not a piece of music I have to memorize. I want to actually feel good for making immediate choices, not feel bad for not being perfectly in sync with a bunch of drones. But people treated the game that way and it has become the dominant paradigm.

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My biggest complaint with the jobs in FFXIV, they are almost exclusively fixed rotations, with dancer, bard and blm being outliners. To diversify it a bit they could at least have made it so that not every resource generation had fixed numbers, so instead of 5 it could have been 4-7 or 10 on crit.

Dancer also suffers from being stuck with the same gcd as all other jobs resulting in their core rotation feeling like an absolute bore.

Just add me to the list of people mad about that change. It's not too late to revert it. And instead remove Shoha II and Guren and just make them upgrades to single target equivalents.

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

"Remove to improve" strikes again.

Can't wait when they finally remove tank stances too because in a few years even Genshin Impact gonna have more skills/keys to use than FFXIV

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More skills or buttons doesn't mean better gameplay. the issue is what those skills and buttons do and how they impact a fight. there are games where you may only have 5 or 6 skills but the way they flow and the impact they have on a fight makes for a much better gameplay experience.

Kaiten carries no weight or impact. maybe between um 52-60 where kenki is actualy a finite resource.. but 60+ you just kaiten everything without much thought thats not deep or engaging. its just bloat.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

To me, when it's used that much, it doesn't have much weight behind it. It doesn't "feel good" to me to use it, unlike something like stardiver, which has prep involved and isn't used constantly.

It's a button that only exists to make 2 other buttons do more damage. If it had a cooldown on it to make you use it strategically, sure, but it's not

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pretty much agree with this.. when you're pressing a button that many times it really doesnt feel fun or impactful. (problem with many ogcds in general, they're just busy buttons to keep you occupied)

when you're pressing a button to power up every iajutsu. are you really powering them up?. or just doing normal damage?

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Kaiten carries no weight or impact. maybe between um 52-60 where kenki is actualy a finite resource.. but 60+ you just kaiten everything without much thought thats not deep or engaging. its just bloat.

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But it does. In fact more so than almost any other skill Samurai has right now ( maybe except Tsubame ). While in the opener its easy to miss why it is important, in the 1 minute burst it is basically a question of how many Shintens can you use, while always having enough kenki too boost your next Iaijutsu. Without this mechanic you can literally just dump it all mindlessly on Shinten whenever you want, otherwise you'd have to always make sure you are not at <20 kenki when finishing a combo and having to use an Iaijutsu. Try doing the samurai opener and rotation optimally and you will see that it does require you to stop yourself from using Shinten on cooldown.

Also how often do you even use Kaiten, its used once per minute on Higanbana, and once on every Iaijutsu + Ogi Namikiri... It has an average cast of 4.5 per minute or so. That's one cast every 15 seconds. Look at how often people use it across a fight, seriously.

Reasoning this change on button bloat is weird and not so rational, turning Ikishoten into Ogi Namikiri, or replacing Shoha with Shoha 2 would be better ways to address button bloat without sacrificing job mechanics / complexity.
If you do not play Samurai, nor understand the opener / how it works, please refrain from saying whether or not a button carries no weight or impact. You need a better understanding of the job first.
All this change does is it lowers the skill floor of the job while taking away 1 button and a cool animation.

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Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi

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admiteddly It's not 90 yet but i played samurai as a main job right through the last expansion with random amounts of savage experiece. ( i don't raid but i do occassionally slot fill for friends)

but my question would be this..
when would i ever want to use midare without first using kaiten?
when would i ever want to use higabana without first using kaiten?
when would i wantto use any applicable skill without first using kaiten?

Unless it changes between 83 and 90 the answer is always NEVER! which means there no choice no strategy no impact, its just bloat..

now if it was a case where you kaiten had a cool down and you could only use it on i dunno maybe 1/3 of your iajutsu uses then bam!! now it has weight and impact because not only is there an element of choice to be made but there would also be a visible difference when using it... "whoa that midare ripped the boss to shreds compared to the last ones i did..."
but when you kaiten everything it's just another midare for the same old damage yet again... boriiingggg..

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Originally Posted by Dzian

admiteddly It's not 90 yet but i played samurai as a main job right through the last expansion with random amounts of savage experiece. ( i don't raid but i do occassionally slot fill for friends)

but my question would be this..
when would i ever want to use midare without first using kaiten?
when would i ever want to use higabana without first using kaiten?
when would i wantto use any applicable skill without first using kaiten?

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I understand what your saying about it being a choice, and you are right you always want to use Kaiten before any Iaijutsu, but you are not getting my point also.
My point in short is that you have to not use Shinten whenever you want, so that you have enough for a Kaiten. Kaiten is mandatory before every Iaijutsu and strict, while Shinten is not, so you are making a choice to not use Shinten when you have >25 Kenki because if you got a Iaijutsu coming up you won't have enough for the mandatory Kaiten.
I hope it makes sense now.

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Originally Posted by SeaJae

[...]So I don't even know why I'm accepting your opinion on what the dev's meant, when the translation was right there on the slide.

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You should accept their "opinion" on what the devs meant because the unofficial translation of what they were talking about mentioned that there was a mistranslation and they meant "actions" or "button presses" bloat, not hotbar bloat.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

admiteddly It's not 90 yet but i played samurai as a main job right through the last expansion with random amounts of savage experiece. ( i don't raid but i do occassionally slot fill for friends)

but my question would be this..
when would i ever want to use midare without first using kaiten?
when would i ever want to use higabana without first using kaiten?
when would i wantto use any applicable skill without first using kaiten?

Unless it changes between 83 and 90 the answer is always NEVER! which means there no choice no strategy no impact, its just bloat..

now if it was a case where you kaiten had a cool down and you could only use it on i dunno maybe 1/3 of your iajutsu uses then bam!! now it has weight and impact because not only is there an element of choice to be made but there would also be a visible difference when using it... "whoa that midare ripped the boss to shreds compared to the last ones i did..."
but when you kaiten everything it's just another midare for the same old damage yet again... boriiingggg..

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You're missing the point by zooming in too much on Kaiten; The weight of Kaiten isn't felt with Kaiten itself, it's with the need to manage your Kenki gauge to make sure you will/do have enough Kenki to spend on Kaiten whenever you're going to use Iaijutsu while ALSO spamming Shinten. This becomes "If I use Shinten now, I have 2 more attacks in this combo left to generate Kenki before I'll need to hit Kaiten, are those attacks going to generate the Kenki that I need for Kaiten? Or should I hold on using Shinten?"

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

They mean action bloat, as in, button presses, not button bloat(which is its own issue)


As it is, kaiten is the 2nd most used action (generally tied with shinten) after hakaze.


To me, when it's used that much, it doesn't have much weight behind it. It doesn't "feel good" to me to use it, unlike something like stardiver, which has prep involved and isn't used constantly.

It's a button that only exists to make 2 other buttons do more damage. If it had a cooldown on it to make you use it strategically, sure, but it's not

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Stardiver hits like a wet noodle. Nothing about that move feels good when it takes 9 years to get to it when doing the optimized rotation. That said, who cares if kaiten is used a lot? In terms of "action bloat" nothing changes because we're all just going to replace it with shinten. The button APM stays exactly the same.

I'm not even a SAM main (heck mine is not even at 90) but even I will feel the loss of Kaiten just because I think it looks cool af and it feels good to use it, it really feels like I'm charging a big attack