I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

That's bold insult, comming from a a healer who thinks dps with 1 vul stack is a lost case.
( Conext: Normal content, where dmg output is at the lowest)

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Is this "guy" always wrong?

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

You forgot something[...]

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The important things that you consistently missing is the fact that you made a biased observation for whatever reason & have misplaced your blame on a random healer---that was something that Sebazy tried to point out to you (and later on Bole & ForsakenRoe, too): if it's anybody's fault, it's definitely not to be shouldered by that healer alone; you too played a part that leads to your own death as well. They were correcting you.

Furthermore, while Sebazy is indeed too blunt with her words, it doesn't deny the fact that there has been indeed more than just "more dps" and nothing else as you've put it few pages ago:

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

[...]Apparently this is peak gameplay design by the so called ffxiv forum/reddit "healer" community..
Since they don't complain about this .. they just complain about lack of dps rota, more dps abilties.. ect
(Read one and you have read them all)

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Please don't be like this:
https://gomakemeasandwich.files.word...-the-point.png

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

That's bold insult, comming from a a healer who thinks dps with 1 vul stack is a lost case.
( Conext: Normal content, where dmg output is at the lowest)

https://i.imgur.com/1neSZT7.png

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Link where I said you were a lost cause because of 1 vuln stack. I’ll be waiting.

Personally, If I was one of those healers, I expect I would have saved you because I’d have tetra/Benisoned which would have been more than enough (remember, you died by something like 180hp). But if I was in your situation and died, I would also be able to accept that with the vuln stack was my own doing and as such, it’s not fair to hold other players to a higher standard than I myself was playing at.

TLDR, your reading comprehension is utterly awful and the point is clearly being missed here.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Do you honestly think you need to ST heal someone whom has 1 vuln stack to keep them alive?

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At this particular point in time with these circumstances? The math says yes clearly ;)

HOWEVER

If you had even a little more gear, had bothered to use food or the group (healers and yourself included) had have had slighter better CD and mitigation timing, you’d have likely been fine.

My point wasn’t that this was entirely your fault. My point was rather, the healers weren’t to blame like you tried to suggest.

YOU claimed that you received no heals. YOU claimed that you were at full HP

I simply demonstrated that you did actually get healing, that you weren’t actually at full HP (because you had a vuln stack that meant you were the only one in the group that wasn’t topped) and lastly, you were the only person that died. If the healers were sleeping, more people should have died no?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’ve spent the last 5 pages before this argument specifically asking for near every single heal button SCH has to be nerfed specifically so I would be forced to rely on succor more, use broil less and be more tactical with when you can ED

Are you guys like actually not reading our suggestions or are you reading them, deciding you don’t like our specific suggestions then strawmanning us

I’m genuinely curious, no other section of the forums has such a strong culture of “I read the threads up till now, that’s why I know you didn’t say (exactly what I said) you said (thing I didn’t say)”

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Honestly, if anyone else claims that we only say we want more damage buttons and never give suggestions or talk about anything else, literally just link the healer suggestions megathread and say nothing further.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

Honestly, if anyone else claims that we only say we want more damage buttons and never give suggestions or talk about anything else, literally just link the healer suggestions megathread and say nothing further.

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I’m sure it won’t take too long until another “OMG YOU WANT TO MAKE HEALERS ALL BLM??? NOT IN MY FOURTEEN!! ;;W;;”-pops up and the cycle begins once more.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

I’m sure it won’t take too long until another “OMG YOU WANT TO MAKE HEALERS ALL BLM??? NOT IN MY FOURTEEN!! ;;W;;”-pops up and the cycle begins once more.

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To be honest the core 6-10 of us need to stop being baited by these people ourselves (I admit I get way too heated way too often)

We should honestly just create a master list of every time one of us makes a point about something and when someone comes in trying to say one of the (insert things we never asked for) we just link the master list

It would be more boring but it might actually get it through people’s heads we aren’t a cabal holding the healer forums hostage demanding BLM level rotations like half the general forum seems to think we are

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

we aren’t a cabal holding the healer forums hostage demanding BLM level rotations like half the general forum seems to think we are

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I mean, that wouldn't be a bad thing if you were.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

To be honest the core 6-10 of us need to stop being baited by these people ourselves (I admit I get way too heated way too often)

We should honestly just create a master list of every time one of us makes a point about something and when someone comes in trying to say one of the (insert things we never asked for) we just link the master list

It would be more boring but it might actually get it through people’s heads we aren’t a cabal holding the healer forums hostage demanding BLM level rotations like half the general forum seems to think we are

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I respect the attempt to correct any misunderstandings that people have. But at some point, it becomes pretty obvious when someone has an idea so deeply set into their mind that they refuse to see a thing any other way, it's best to disengage with those types of people as any discussion will go nowhere fast.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

We should honestly just create a master list of every time one of us makes a point about something and when someone comes in trying to say one of the (insert things we never asked for) we just link the master list

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Now I am imgaining a very bored and fed up forum goer linking to a googledoc with a blunt 'see subsection 4c paragraph a1 for the list of refutations of this argument'

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

To be honest the core 6-10 of us need to stop being baited by these people ourselves (I admit I get way too heated way too often)[...]

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I respect the attempt to correct any misunderstandings that people have. But at some point, it becomes pretty obvious when someone has an idea so deeply set into their mind that they refuse to see a thing any other way, it's best to disengage with those types of people as any discussion will go nowhere fast.

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To be fair in my eyes, it's not about trying to change their mind (I mean that would be nice of a bonus if it actually happens). I'm sure we recognize their stance and they're unlikely to budge---they've made their point, I can't change that. But I can still inform/convince the otherwise to those who read the replies aftermath.

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Originally Posted by Sani2341

Now I am imgaining a very bored and fed up forum goer linking to a googledoc with a blunt 'see subsection 4c paragraph a1 for the list of refutations of this argument'

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That would be so funny actually. A giant document that refutes every single common argument that pops up from time to time.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

To be fair in my eyes, it's not about trying to change their mind (I mean that would be nice of a bonus if it actually happens). I'm sure we recognize their stance and they're unlikely to budge---they've made their point, I can't change that. But I can still inform/convince the otherwise to those who read the replies aftermath.

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Honestly, I respect you for that, and everyone else who does the same. The last time I earnestly tried to correct misinformation, I got called all manner of names, so I personally don't bother anymore.

Honestly, people aren't really after more complex dps rotations exactly, as much as they want this to not turn into a game of tic tac toe or checkers when it was originally chess.

When I do look back at the first post, it does have very little information. However, it is more open-ended and doesn't ask for the things that are usually assumed at all. Should we have Mithron's first post edited to link some important points contributed as well as other suggestions mentioned from ForsakenRoe, Ty, Sebazy and WaxSw? I also mentioned some points with combining Cure, Cure 2 and Afflatus Solace all together with maybe single oGCD heal combo buttons like Indomidability > Fey Blessing to free up spell slots without eliminating spells.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

Should we have Mithron's first post edited to link some important points contributed as well as other suggestions mentioned from ForsakenRoe, Ty, Sebazy and WaxSw? I also mentioned some points with combining Cure, Cure 2 and Afflatus Solace all together with maybe single oGCD heal combo buttons like Indomidability > Fey Blessing to free up spell slots without eliminating spells.

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Isn't the 'post that contains the refutations to every tired 'attack the strawman' that has been done already', the thread that Recon made over in healer section?

Something like what you mention here, with combining skills to slow down action bloat, at least that we can have a discussion about the merits of various implementations. For example, on WHM, I would agree that Cure 1 can upgrade to Cure 2, but I would also disagree with adding Solace to the list, because the use cases for Solace and Cure2 are different, there may be times where you want to heal but save the mobility of the Solace for a moment. So I'd say Cure1>2, and Medica1>2, that's two buttons saved on WHM and it already has the lowest button count of the healers iirc

But it's not really possible to have a discussion when the topic is 'the solution to making healers feel more engaging is to make them heal more. Also I don't know how to go about doing that, but that's what I think, and I emphatically disagree with trying to solve the problem with more damage buttons'. I don't mind when someone says they think that 'more healing requirements' is the fix, I mind it when they say that, are completely closedminded to any alternative solution, and also don't actually present any thoughts on how to make 'more healing requirements' work, that both A: make veteran healers feel engaged in ALL content, and B: also doesn't screw casual healers and make some content unclearable for them due to lower skill level. I mind it when people say 'just do it the way I say, it's not my job to work out the logistics', because I went to university to study this kind of stuff. This IS the job I studied for, and it's why I end up typing massive essays in response to the smallest of things, because contrary to all the lemons who say 'if you don't enjoy having so few damage buttons on healer, go play a DPS' think, I want to enjoy healer again, as much as I did in previous expansions. I don't do this because I hate healer, I do it because I care about the health of the healer role. If 'just play a DPS' was the solution, I'd have swapped mains years ago

I said it before, I'll say it again. I don't mind if SE tries to make it more interesting by increasing damage button count, healing required, or both. I will mind if they just try to keep the status quo, and give us another 2 years of what we have now. SE, Yoshi-P, please. Try something new for healer design. Anything. More healing required, more damage buttons, or both, or something else entirely. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. We don't know until we try. But we do know what won't work: This. Because we're going through it now, and it's not working now. DT is going to be a new beginning in the story. Give us a new beginning in the healer design, too, thanks

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Honestly, people aren't really after more complex dps rotations exactly, as much as they want this to not turn into a game of tic tac toe or checkers when it was originally chess.

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IDK about others from the healer section of the forums, but my general stance is 'hey, HW was too complex, SHB was too simple, SB was the midpoint where the clunky garbo of healers (Cleric Stance, damage scaling from INT) was removed to make it more accessible to newer players. Can we look at going back to something akin to SB's healer damage design, and using that as a baseline to build off of going forward?'

As an example, I ask for WHM to get a 15s CD GCD, and 12s duration on Dia. By contrast, SB WHM had Aero2 at 18s, and Aero3 at 24s. Same button count as what I am asking for, but mine would be used more often (which means even less Stone/Glares), both Dia/the 15s CD would be instant (whereas Aero3 had a cast time longer than the GCD) which would allow more mobility options for newer players (helps them keep their damage easier while doing mechanics), etc. But both of these (me vs SB) would also open the doors on design options for the devs to add new interactions. I've long suggested a gauge on WHM which builds by using any non-lily spell, including damage. Said gauge would be spent on a new healing ability, which is itself damage-neutral, by empowering your next cast of Glare/Dia/the new button, into Quake, Tornado and Flood (since BLM has access to Flare and Freeze). Casual players could look at this and go 'oh cool strong heal, and also big cool attack animations' and feel good about using them. Optimization players, however, would be able to think 'How do I line up my healing CD plan, such that I go into the burst window with two stacks of Quake, Flood, Tornado, a Misery ready, and use them all in the right order to maximize the burst inside raidbuffs?' and that added optional depth is what we need more of

Additionally, if we also had these Quake etc be AOE with 50% damage falloff (as with many other skills in this game cough Phlegma), then we have, with just two new buttons (the 15s one, and the healing gauge spender), not only made the ST rotation more interesting, but added THREE new buttons to the AOE rotation as well (since Holy would also build gauge)! Then later expansions, the devs have so much more design space to work with, because of the addition of the gauge. Other gauge spenders, Infuriate style 'gives instant Gauge' CDs, a move that dumps ALL of the gauge currently built and scales in power based on amount used (Purgation?), the list goes on

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Originally Posted by Colt47

Honestly, people aren't really after more complex dps rotations exactly, as much as they want this to not turn into a game of tic tac toe or checkers when it was originally chess.

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The thing is, adding anything at all would make the current healer dps rotations more complex. But what some people seem to ignore is that complexity is a spectrum ranging from WAR/DNC to BLM/MNK, the problem is that people who vehemently oppose healer dps buttons always immediately jump to assume that we want the BLM/MNK end of the spectrum.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

But it's not really possible to have a discussion when the topic is 'the solution to making healers feel more engaging is to make them heal more. Also I don't know how to go about doing that, but that's what I think, and I emphatically disagree with trying to solve the problem with more damage buttons'. I don't mind when someone says they think that 'more healing requirements' is the fix, I mind it when they say that, are completely closedminded to any alternative solution, and also don't actually present any thoughts on how to make 'more healing requirements' work, that both A: make veteran healers feel engaged in ALL content, and B: also doesn't screw casual healers and make some content unclearable for them due to lower skill level. I mind it when people say 'just do it the way I say, it's not my job to work out the logistics', because I went to university to study this kind of stuff. This IS the job I studied for, and it's why I end up typing massive essays in response to the smallest of things, because contrary to all the lemons who say 'if you don't enjoy having so few damage buttons on healer, go play a DPS' think, I want to enjoy healer again, as much as I did in previous expansions. I don't do this because I hate healer, I do it because I care about the health of the healer role. If 'just play a DPS' was the solution, I'd have swapped mains years ago

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One thing that sticks out to me is that there's been quite a few people who want an increase to healing requirements that absolutely reject dps options and claim that expanded dps options have no place in healer design. Meanwhile, I don't think I've seen a single person who supports expanded dps options that absolutely reject healing requirements being increased.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

One thing that sticks out to me is that there's been quite a few people who want an increase to healing requirements that absolutely reject dps options and claim that expanded dps options have no place in healer design. Meanwhile, I don't think I've seen a single person who supports expanded dps options that absolutely reject healing requirements being increased.

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I've unleashed the Seb-bomb on a few people that have claimed that more healer DPS complexity would cause problems whereas increasing healing requirements somehow wouldn't a few times, but that's mostly just down to the absurd boost incoming damage alone would need to actually a pressure a decent healer with our current kits. I was actually tempted to paste some of my older calcs to a poster here yesterday but didn't have time sadly.

If SE took the route of more erratic and consistent incoming damage coupled with a DEEP pruning of our healing kits and AoE HPS potency to actually force us to have to triage then I think SE could actually turn this ship around.

Hmm, I haven't done Savage or Extreme very much, so I am unaware of how many times you need to hold onto the instant cast for movement reasons on a later mechanic. This looks like a ... controversial decision that needs a consensus since Recon even suggested the merge in the thread. Would Regen be enough to warrant the merge or is it not enough due to dealing with many burst hits for Savage and saving the instant cast? In my case scenario with healing casual content, Solace was always used first before I got to Cure 2. Cure 2 usually only ever got used at the start of the dungeon if the tank is getting hammered on the first pull even despite the Holy stun spam. Not always the tank's fault since single target DPS is sometimes a thing too on big pulls >.>

The other suggestion for Medica 1 to merge with Medica 2 would work for me. I mostly only use Medica 1 when I don't have Medica 2 below level 50. This basically comes down to how level 50 dungeons would feel like. Sometimes, a new player takes more damage than usual in the Main Scenario dungeon (cough Citadel Buster cough). I generally just toss a Regen to those DPS players if they are the only ones hit, but I wonder if that is enough for the new players? We also have Cure 3, but it is not very useful for casual content with stacking rarely ever happening. Could we add a 30 yard radius range to the AoE heals projected onto your target to fix that? Or would this ... negatively affect the veterans who do use it for Savage in coordinated stacks?

I do like Recon's suggestion to change Freecure to proc from Stone casts instead of Cure casts. Although such a trait would not be necessary if we use your WHM suggestion, Roe. Most of the time, I don't see objections to your suggestions.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

Hmm, I haven't done Savage or Extreme very much, so I am unaware of how many times you need to hold onto the instant cast for movement reasons on a later mechanic. This looks like a ... controversial decision that needs a consensus since Recon even suggested the merge in the thread. Would Regen be enough to warrant the merge or is it not enough due to dealing with many burst hits for Savage and saving the instant cast? In my case scenario with healing casual content, Solace was always used first before I got to Cure 2. Cure 2 usually only ever got used at the start of the dungeon if the tank is getting hammered on the first pull even despite the Holy stun spam. Not always the tank's fault since single target DPS is sometimes a thing too on big pulls >.>

The other suggestion for Medica 1 to merge with Medica 2 would work for me. I mostly only use Medica 1 when I don't have Medica 2 below level 50. This basically comes down to how level 50 dungeons would feel like. Sometimes, a new player takes more damage than usual in the Main Scenario dungeon (cough Citadel Buster cough). I generally just toss a Regen to those DPS players if they are the only ones hit, but I wonder if that is enough for the new players? We also have Cure 3, but it is not very useful for casual content with stacking rarely ever happening. Could we add a 30 yard radius range to the AoE heals projected onto your target to fix that? Or would this ... negatively affect the veterans who do use it for Savage in coordinated stacks?

I do like Recon's suggestion to change Freecure to proc from Stone casts instead of Cure casts. Although such a trait would not be necessary if we use your WHM suggestion, Roe. Most of the time, I don't see objections to your suggestions.

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There's very few instances in savage or ultimates where you absolutely have to save an instant cast heal, you can almost always solve most mechanics with precasting heals instead. One example from this expansion is Act 2 in P4SP2. you can't precast heals because the party is split too far, so you have to do an instant cast (whether with OGCDs, lilies or Swiftcast) as you're running to the next spot because there's no time to do a 2s hardcast before the next instance of damage.

But every healer already does have an on-demand tool for when you absolutely need an instant heal during a mechanic: Swiftcast.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

I've unleashed the Seb-bomb on a few people that have claimed that more healer DPS complexity would cause problems whereas increasing healing requirements somehow wouldn't a few times, but that's mostly just down to the absurd boost incoming damage alone would need to actually a pressure a decent healer with our current kits. I was actually tempted to paste some of my older calcs to a poster here yesterday but didn't have time sadly.

If SE took the route of more erratic and consistent incoming damage coupled with a DEEP pruning of our healing kits and AoE HPS potency to actually force us to have to triage then I think SE could actually turn this ship around.

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Some people do throw around terms like "Make us heal 80% of the time" while not realising how unfeasible it really is. We do spend 80% of the time healing during mechanics like J-Wave or Harrowing Hell, do people really want that form of intense healing all the time in all forms of content? I'm not sure that's really a good idea.

I’ll use a bit of maths here using SGE as the example

Some things to note
1) I’ll be considering kardia at a 2.5 second GCD
2) if an action has a longer than 1 minute CD I’ll consider it on a fractional percentage of 1 minute (so if I’m considering holos on a 2 minute CD I’ll divide its potency by 2 to get its one minute potency)
3) I’m baking Zoe into pnuema and krasis into haima for ease sake
4) if an oGCD gives a shield I’m gonna assume said shield gets completely absorbed
5) panhaima I’m taking an average of 2 shields being cracked and 3 expiring as a heal
6) addersgall generates at 1 per 20 seconds so 2 out of 3 addersgall will be given to kerechole, the other to ixochole
7) all percentage mitigations I’m gonna assume mitigate about 200 potency worth of damage

With that out of the way

SINGLE TARGET

Kardia (24 GCD’s per minute)- 3627 potency
Soteria (2.667 GCD’s per minute)- 771 potency
Combined kardia potency- 4397 potency
Haima (0.5 uses per minute)- 360 potency (shield), 270 potency (expiration heal)

Total single target potency- 5027 potency

AOE

Physis 2 (once per minute)- 650 potency
Kerechole (twice per minute)- 1000 potency (regen), 400 potency (mitigation)
Ixochole (1.66666 times per minute)- 666 potency
Holos (0.5 times per minute)- 150 potency (heal), 150 potency (shield), 100 potency (mitigation)
Panhaima (0.5 times per minute)- 200 potency (shields), 150 potency (expiration heal)
Pnuema (0.5 times per minute)- 450 potency

Total AOE potency- 3916 potency

A DPS/healer has roughly 2500-300 potency of health and a tank about 4500-5000, so unless you are willing to do almost 1.5x a DPS health bar every single minute then SGE can handle the healing alone with no loss to GCD damage and SGE is a SHIELD healer, the values are off the charts

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Originally Posted by Aravell

There's very few instances in savage or ultimates where you absolutely have to save an instant cast heal, you can almost always solve most mechanics with precasting heals instead. One example from this expansion is Act 2 in P4SP2. you can't precast heals because the party is split too far, so you have to do an instant cast (whether with OGCDs, lilies or Swiftcast) as you're running to the next spot because there's no time to do a 2s hardcast before the next instance of damage.

But every healer already does have an on-demand tool for when you absolutely need an instant heal during a mechanic: Swiftcast.



Some people do throw around terms like "Make us heal 80% of the time" while not realising how unfeasible it really is. We do spend 80% of the time healing during mechanics like J-Wave or Harrowing Hell, do people really want that form of intense healing all the time in all forms of content? I'm not sure that's really a good idea.

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I also vaguely remembering a few instances like P7S purgation phase where my co-WHM saves Raptures in those times for movement between platforms and uses Medica II/Cure III to help out the heals while everybody are standing still in their assigned positions.

Interesting and mildly relevant topic point:

Healing Coop Azhdaha in Genshin with characters like Kokomi was an absolute blast. As soon as I got the likes of Furina the fun was gone.

Why? Even though I could still heal plenty enough on Kokomi, positioning and mobility was supremely challenging, if I dropped my Jellyfish in a bad spot I wouldn't be able to move it for a good long time leaving a gap in healing long enough that anyone eating the dot would likely die, so I had to plan and adjust on the fly around unpredictable teammates. The fight put me under pressure and made me pay attention.

Meanwhile Furina is a lot like a current day XIV healer in that she effectively has no real limit (At least not that can be tested by the majority of content assuming a vaguely competent level of play) nor restrictions to her healing. She can flip the switch to heal at anytime and she can reposition and refocus the healing at anytime. Even though her actual healing output isn't actually any higher than my Kokomi, she completely nullified the pressure the fight put me under.

Whilst yes, the healing requirements in modern day content are a problem, it's not the only problem, not by far.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

https://i.imgur.com/tVNtVaC.png

https://i.imgur.com/V6vK1rj.png

https://i.imgur.com/EyWXbQx.png

https://i.imgur.com/uR1NHur.png

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P12s. This is the problem.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

P12s. This is the problem.

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Is P10S any better?

https://i.imgur.com/9NVemgU.png

https://i.imgur.com/tyAxASE.png

https://i.imgur.com/HJAuGZZ.png

https://i.imgur.com/2cZxz0a.png

I’m assuming he meant “wow even on P12S” not “this is only a P12 problem”

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Interesting and mildly relevant topic point:

Healing Coop Azhdaha in Genshin with characters like Kokomi was an absolute blast. As soon as I got the likes of Furina the fun was gone.

Why? Even though I could still heal plenty enough on Kokomi, positioning and mobility was supremely challenging, if I dropped my Jellyfish in a bad spot I wouldn't be able to move it for a good long time leaving a gap in healing long enough that anyone eating the dot would likely die, so I had to plan and adjust on the fly around unpredictable teammates. The fight put me under pressure and made me pay attention.

Meanwhile Furina is a lot like a current day XIV healer in that she effectively has no real limit (At least not that can be tested by the majority of content assuming a vaguely competent level of play) nor restrictions to her healing. She can flip the switch to heal at anytime and she can reposition and refocus the healing at anytime. Even though her actual healing output isn't actually any higher than my Kokomi, she completely nullified the pressure the fight put me under.

Whilst yes, the healing requirements in modern day content are a problem, it's not the only problem, not by far.

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To be fair, Furina's healing comes at the cost of her Hydro application whereas Kokomi's does not.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I’m assuming he meant “wow even on P12S” not “this is only a P12 problem”

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Imagine what it looks like for non-relevant content

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Imagine what it looks like for non-relevant content

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Replace all those GCD heals with more Glaroilficosis. Cut off some of those oGCD casts too.

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Originally Posted by Bole

I just noticed that while I was unsubbed they buffed every heal’s radius except the one whose niche was the big radius. I get the hate for fey blessing now - when they first created them, fey blessing and consolation were the only heals SCH had with the big radius. I don’t think these devs play their own game.

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People hate the massively increased radius because it's a solution to a problem that the dev team made themselves. They massively increased the boss hitbox size, so in order to make the melee disengage, they have to make the arena bigger, and since the arena is now massive, healer tools can no longer reach everyone easily, so they just boosted the size of healer tools.

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Originally Posted by Bole

I just noticed that while I was unsubbed they buffed every heal’s radius except the one whose niche was the big radius. I get the hate for fey blessing now - when they first created them, fey blessing and consolation were the only heals SCH had with the big radius. I don’t think these devs play their own game.

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Heal radius buffs are an entire nother issue that annoys me, cure 3 has basically superseded medica 1 in all but it’s astronomical MP cost, increasing the bubbles radius has ruined a lot of the old strategy in fights like thordan where soil placement was super important to your mitigation plan and it’s also kinda ruined SCH’s niche as a totem healer; who cares that SCH can have the fairy on the opposite side of the arena cast whispering dawn to hit people the SCH can’t when physis can hit the next instance over. No more black chokers mechanics anymore considering that SGE, temperance and the bubbles can hit literally anywhere in the instance

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Originally Posted by Aravell

People hate the massively increased radius because it's a solution to a problem that the dev team made themselves. They massively increased the boss hitbox size, so in order to make the melee disengage, they have to make the arena bigger, and since the arena is now massive, healer tools can no longer reach everyone easily, so they just boosted the size of healer tools.

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Even then with the massive arenas half of SGE’s healing still hits the next instance over, what is the justification for shit like 30yalms on physis or 50 yalms on temperance

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Imagine what it looks like for non-relevant content

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Gotcha, though considering P10 has Harrowing Hell, that's also a feat worth referencing in this conversation.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

The thing is, adding anything at all would make the current healer dps rotations more complex. But what some people seem to ignore is that complexity is a spectrum ranging from WAR/DNC to BLM/MNK, the problem is that people who vehemently oppose healer dps buttons always immediately jump to assume that we want the BLM/MNK end of the spectrum.

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People love to bash nu-SMN for it's lack of complexity as compared to it's previous versions, but I'll take that on one of the healers if the DPS don't want that design, it's got three phases it can shift around to suit the fight's mobility requirements, and that's two phases more than the current healers have. Also, DNC is a good thing to bring up, as it's fulfilling the exact idea that I want to see from healers: easy to get into, fun to optimize and rewarding when you do so. Of course, healers don't need to have all those procs like DNC does, but as I've said before, I find it hilarious that DNC is better at AOE mit than WHM is

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Originally Posted by Tigore

Hmm, I haven't done Savage or Extreme very much, so I am unaware of how many times you need to hold onto the instant cast for movement reasons on a later mechanic. This looks like a ... controversial decision that needs a consensus since Recon even suggested the merge in the thread.

The other suggestion for Medica 1 to merge with Medica 2 would work for me. I mostly only use Medica 1 when I don't have Medica 2 below level 50.

I do like Recon's suggestion to change Freecure to proc from Stone casts instead of Cure casts. Although such a trait would not be necessary if we use your WHM suggestion, Roe. Most of the time, I don't see objections to your suggestions.

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It is admittedly quite a niche situation, but as Rein mentions, holding Lilies for Inviolate Purgation in P7S was helpful. From my own experience, I was thinking of J-Waves in TEA, where I would use one Lily to heal at the start to keep the timer ticking, then move to MP costing heals, going from Med2 for the regen, to Medica1, to Med1 with PI, to Rapture to prevent overcap, to Cure3 with Thin Air for zero MP cost. Being able to juggle two independent resource costs is something I would not really like to see removed, as a merge of Rapture and Medica1 would do. However...

The reason I suggest Medica1 upgrade via trait to Medica2, is simply the potencies. Medica1 (after lv85 with the trait) is 400p. Medica2 is 250, plus 150 per tick for 5 ticks (totalling 1000). This means that, after only a single tick, Medica2 is equal potency to Medica1, with 4 ticks left to burn, for only 100MP more. Might as well make the trait, have Medica2 be 400p base potency, and 4 ticks of 150 (so 12s duration instead of the current 15). Additionally, I think a good idea would be for SE to move the 1-50 CLASS skills (which includes Medica2, as it is the CNJ 50 skill, where Benediction is the WHM 50 skill) down to the 1-30 levelling experience. This way, the early game has more buttons available to players who get synced, certain jobs get key mechanics sooner (eg MRD would have Storm's Eye, and learn about it's buff management, no later than 30, whereas atm it gets it at 50, meaning it has to use it's AOE move in singletarget to apply the buff, very scuffed), some jobs get AOE much earlier, etc. It also opens some room in the 30-50 bracket of levels for some additional skills to be learned (eg if we move some 'Job actions' to 'Class actions' and rescale them, eg DRG's Doom Spike AOE)

TLDR, I'd move the trait upgrading Medica to Medica2 down to 30 at the latest. Potency of the regen can also be adjusted if needed (eg make it 300p on cast, plus 100 per tick for 12s, totalling 700) and increase it's power at later levels. As for FreeCure, I wouldn't mind it moving to Stone. However, if I had my way, FreeCure would also change. After all, if we have Cure1 trait-up to Cure2, then FreeCure's effect becomes 'when you cast Cure2, you have a chance your next Cure2 is free', which sounds like it might actually get some use in high-heal-pressure scenarios. But yes, do the trait upgrade, and then just make Stone AND Cure2 proc it. We don't want to use Cure2, so we might as well make the times where you DO have to use it, less punishing (costing only damage, instead of damage+MP).

As for my suggestions, thanks. I notice that a fair amount of people seem to agree with, if nothing else, at least my stance that 'something needs to change'. As a great example of what I mean by 'design space opens up for the devs to work with' re: my design ideas, literally just came up with this: you could have Stone/Glare have, say, 20% chance to proc FreeCure. But, the cast of Quake (the empowered form of Stone/Glare after using the gauge spender) could be guaranteed to proc FreeCure

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Originally Posted by Bole

I just noticed that while I was unsubbed they buffed every heal’s radius except the one whose niche was the big radius. I get the hate for fey blessing now - when they first created them, fey blessing and consolation were the only heals SCH had with the big radius. I don’t think these devs play their own game.

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SCH is wild, it's got some stuff at 15, some at 20 and some at 30y, it's all over the place. Meanwhile, SGE is able to hit someone standing in the next instance over with Kera/Physis/Panhaima/Holos, and WHM's Temperance being 50y is able to reach so far it can actually reach the other add platform in E8

Ye in patch 6.4 they buffed the radius of many of the ogcds moves like Asylum and Soil because they keep making the hitboxes bigger and bigger to where buffs were not hitting people ala top p3. It's annoying cause it takes away some of that player agency.

I will never forgive them for turning Earthly Star into Earthly Galaxy.

Earthly star is easily the most egregious of the 4 considering its power and the fact that it’s literally a DPS gain to use so you are always dropping it

Sorry if I spoke a bit too passively, Roe. The reason I was brainstorming on Medica 1 and Cure 3 is more so to design a spammable mana AoE heal while the Medica 2 HoT is present. Having both Cure 3 and Medica 1 is admittedly redundant with slight differences in healing power, mana usage and range. I was suggesting Cure 3 essentially become the new spammable AoE heal for casuals to use if Medica 1 will be replaced with Medica 2. Cure 3 might need to be to have around a 30 yalm radius for everyone getting the heals just like how Medica 1 works. If necessary, the range of the target you can select could be nerfed to compensate to about 10 yalms? This could mean that Cure 3 might need to be bumped to around level 30 or under to match with the same suggested time Medica upgrades to Medica 2.

As an aside, I will never not be irked by the use of “Medica” as WHM’s AOE instead of Cure II being your AOE, like how it generally works for your caster DPS (Fire II, Veraero/Verthunder II, Miasma II…) It would look and feel so much cleaner if Cure was your single target, Cure II your AOE, with Cure III and Cure IV being your single target and AOE (respectively) for heals with some sort of additional element, be that regens atop your heals or maybe even something else.

It almost feels like a quiet insult. “DPS players will be able to recognize the difference between spells with the same name but different ranks and effects, but healers aren’t skilled enough to recognize the difference.”

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

People love to bash nu-SMN for it's lack of complexity as compared to it's previous versions, but I'll take that on one of the healers if the DPS don't want that design, it's got three phases it can shift around to suit the fight's mobility requirements, and that's two phases more than the current healers have. Also, DNC is a good thing to bring up, as it's fulfilling the exact idea that I want to see from healers: easy to get into, fun to optimize and rewarding when you do so. Of course, healers don't need to have all those procs like DNC does, but as I've said before, I find it hilarious that DNC is better at AOE mit than WHM is

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When I think about how I'd like to picture more complex healer DPS rotations, RDM and DNC are always the two jobs that come to my mind. I don't think all four healers need to be proc based, but it's definitely a style that would work for one or some of them since it requires little commitment and allows for spot healing at just about any time.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

People love to bash nu-SMN for it's lack of complexity as compared to it's previous versions, but I'll take that on one of the healers if the DPS don't want that design, it's got three phases it can shift around to suit the fight's mobility requirements, and that's two phases more than the current healers have. Also, DNC is a good thing to bring up, as it's fulfilling the exact idea that I want to see from healers: easy to get into, fun to optimize and rewarding when you do so. Of course, healers don't need to have all those procs like DNC does, but as I've said before, I find it hilarious that DNC is better at AOE mit than WHM is

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I've said before that current SMN is unacceptable for a DPS job, but it would be a pretty good playstyle for WHM. 3 stances that do different things, WHM also has 3 elements to use. The rotation is also simple enough that you can break to heal if needed. Something similar to DNC would probably fit AST. SCH can return to DoT mage.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

I've said before that current SMN is unacceptable for a DPS job, but it would be a pretty good playstyle for WHM. 3 stances that do different things, WHM also has 3 elements to use. The rotation is also simple enough that you can break to heal if needed. Something similar to DNC would probably fit AST. SCH can return to DoT mage.

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Due to how healing works and the sheer number of uncontrolled variables, the better systems for damage dealing are going to always lean towards priority systems that do not require dealing with combinations. Summoners rotation is unplayable on a healer and would only work in savage or a very controlled environment, which doesn't exist the majority of the time.

The other problem is that SE is juggling between healers not needing to dps and healers needing to dps. If healers are required to DPS then they cease to be healers entirely and are just a version of dps that heal other people with OGCDs. They could literally copy paste the pvp rotation for whm into the game and call it a day with some modifications.

What I want is healer dps to be optional, and for high end content to basically let the healer be the safety measure for getting the group through a fight. But then we end up with what we got now where the fight is a massive series of body checks where the healer has to get pressed into a corner and people would demand them to dps if they had any modicum of optional time to work with.

I'd rather just have healers take on the affliction warlock stance, where they are doing something similar to BRD and have a lot of time to reapply the DoTs. It takes minimal buttons, no combinations necessary to get damage output, they keep the glare or whatever main attack they got, and it grants more time to do optional things since the base Dps is just keeping dots up (AOE or otherwise). However, I believe they'd have to increase the debuff limit on bosses to make that work in Raids which is why they limit the DoTs to one per job at the most.

I was writing a rather lengthy reply, however in essence it boils down to no, I would disagree that there are a "sheer number of uncontrolled variables" in this game given that damage and mechanics are predictable, those "uncontrolled variables" are essentially your party members, which can to some extent be controlled for if you are in a static.

Having not played WoW (where I assume your reference comes from) I am not familiar with your reference in depth, however I am familiar with Bard, and I will say that I definitely would not want all healers maintaining multiple dots based upon your analysis. SCH used to have them, I would welcome their return on SCH, let each healer have their own identity.